Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Red for Smash Red for Smash Red for Smash

Sakurai: "A character with random projectiles like this would be cool."

Smash Community: "But with an indicator of who's next right?"

Sakurai: ...

Smash Community: "But with an indicator of who's next right?"

 

[ZelDan]

So I'm seeing one thing repeatedly and I'm frankly confused by it.

I keep seeing people say Kazuya is lame because "he's another fighting game character. Not another fighting game character."

But like... counting Kazuya, we only have five.

Ryu
Ken
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

Because most of those people probably don't even actually care about genre discrepancies in Smash and only pull "OMG ANOTHER FIGHTING GAME CHARACTER!?" out of their buttocks in some pathetic attempt to hate a character that isn't one they personally wanted?

 

[Mushroomguy12]

You and I, brother/sister..
He'll get content of some kind, I have a gut feeling
Maybe a deluxe mii hat or something, god a character would ofc be based, too

Bonus if they have Pig Miis as well as the birds.

Yes, in addition to the Minecraft Pigs, it'll be the new Roys.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Looks like PapaGenos's embracing the Tekken spirit in advance of Kazuya's Smash release!

Tekken 7 - PapaGenBROS

Playing Tekken 7 in celebration of Kazuya Mishima being announced as Challenger Pack 10 for Super Smash Bros Ultimate fighters pass 2 DLC!!!Tekken 7 Part1: h...

www.youtube.com

Also Mushroomguy12 that bad piggeis remix goes hard wtf

 

[Ivander]

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

"The character I wanted didn't get in, so I need to complain about this character I'm not a fan of."

It's the circle of Smash Bros. reveals. No wonder people keep saying the last one will be disappointing when even a well-known pick will bring out some people.

 

[Louie G.]

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

Not to keep playing devil's advocate today lmao, but I imagine the aversion to Kazuya from certain audiences has to do with the similarities in concept between fighting game characters with special inputs, automatically facing opponents and the like. Most of the skepticism regarding Terry phased out once we got to see him in action and were introduced to his unique elements like his Back Special and the GO Meter, so I think Kazuya will end up pretty similar when it's recognized how different he'll inevitably play than the characters he overlaps with at face value. Like, if he's anything like I'm expecting he's going to be an entirely different beast.

But part of me does at least understand why people may tire of the fighting game character shtick the fourth time over, since characters from other genres tend to have more variety between their shared traits and gimmicks. "He feels like he was brought directly over from a fighting game" is something that, to those who aren't particularly into fighting games, may feel kind of samey when done a few times. As compared to like "he feels like Minecraft" with Steve, for example, where if you brought in another character with resource management who builds things... even if they played different, if you saw this happen a few times over I think people may start to be less excited by the idea.

Fortunately that doesn't apply to me because I love fighting games! And I think Kazuya is a worthy addition who will bring a lot of new ideas to the table. But I've also tried to empathize with the people who aren't as thrilled about it because it kinda rubs me the wrong way when the community ridicules people for having preferences, too. A number of my more casual friends I spoke to about the Direct weren't that excited about the reveal either, so it put things into perspective for me a bit even if I disagree with the reasoning and will justify Kazuya's inclusion whenever the conversation comes up.

I will also say I haven't seen that much outright complaining about Kazuya myself. Twitter is always gonna be Twitter but beyond that the reception has been widely positive if not like, lukewarm at worst.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Like, among the fighting game characters added, 3 of them have a few shared gimmicks(input commands), but they still feel quite a bit different due to unique commands/moves/changeups.

I love them all in their own way. Whether it's the exact choice I wanted or not. It's a good variety to have. I played a lot of Traditional Fighting Games, so the commands are easy for me to do. That doesn't mean they're easy for everyone, and that's fine. At worst it just means not everyone can play, say, Ryu, optimally.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

I made another suggestion here:

https://smashboards.com/threads/suggestion-list-of-disallowed-character-support-threads.513943/

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I made another suggestion here:

https://smashboards.com/threads/suggestion-list-of-disallowed-character-support-threads.513943/

This really shouldn't be a thing. Like, who even decides this stuff?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Also fighting game characters are an automatic “I will suck playing as them” slot for me personally. I can imagine someone being disappointed at the prospect of the next fighter having a harsh skill floor up front.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

8 player battle of FG characters
, Scorpion, Sol Badguy, and Fulgore

based

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Basic an excuse as it may seem, I find it really hard to dislike the excessive amount of fighting game characters, when Smash itself is... ya know, a fighting game. If it weren't for these characters and their games who knows if we'd even be on this site rn.

Yeah they may blend together with their command input mechanics, and automatic turnarounds and such, but I think they all earned their spots here.

It doesn't hurt that they're all fun to play for me personally. There's nothing quite as satisfying as pulling off a successful Shoryuken or Power Geyser.

I'm pretty excited to see how Kazuya transitions over

 

[SNEKeater]

Not being excited by Kazuya's inclusion is completely fine. But as others have said most of times these reactions happen because people didn't get their most wanted, and "another FGC character?" is a fast and easy reaction for them.

When that happens it's usually also with people unfamiliar with the new character and it's series. I mean, it has been kinda tough for me and my eyes seeing people calling Kazuya a "shoto" character since his announcement lol

 

[CapitaineCrash]

It’s sad to see so much Joker hate. Persona has become one of my favorite game series ever and I thought it was awesome he made it into Smash. There’s just something about Persona’s characters that really resonate with me. They pretty much all feel like actual people with fleshed out personalities that you’d want to hang out with.

I think it’s the down to earth style of the games that gives the characters a great chance to show off their personalities and interact with each other. Compare that to Xenoblade 2, another one of my favorite games. In Xenoblade, the characters felt more like cliches and less like their own person. Take Zeke for example. He’s cool but there is almost nothing that separates him from Owain from Fire Emblem Awakening as a character. He just feels like a stereotypical chunubio.

I feel like people would like more Joker in Smash if his game was on a Nintendo console. Some days ago (not long after Kazuya reveal) we were talking on a Nintendo discord server about which game from the Smash ultimate dlc people have played before or after the characters announcement, and many people never played Persona 5 or any Persona games. People usually like to play character they recognize.

To be fair I think the word "hate" is a bit strong. I don't think Joker is that hated, it's just that since he come for a more niche game (compare to like Tekken, Minecraft, Final fantasy), and that he's not on a Nintendo console (aside from Strikers), many Smash fans are less attached to him.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I made another suggestion here:

https://smashboards.com/threads/suggestion-list-of-disallowed-character-support-threads.513943/

Tut tut tut. I have no idea who you are but I remember that you said you changed your ways about something and I have to say, you haven't changed at all.

 

[Houndstooth]

Not being excited by Kazuya's inclusion is completely fine. But as others have said most of times these reactions happen because people didn't get their most wanted, and "another FGC character?" is a fast and easy reaction for them.

When that happens it's usually also with people unfamiliar with the new character and it's series. I mean, it has been kinda tough for me and my eyes seeing people calling Kazuya a "shoto" character since his announcement lol

And, see, this is the boat I'm in. Never really been a fan of Tekken. Out of the characters I do know, Kazuya isn't one of them, unfortunately. But, even though the pick isn't for me doesn't mean that it isn't a huge deal. Tekken is a big franchise that I am just not into. Hopefully Sakurai and the team does the character justice. And, I hope to learn more about him from the video presentation. Honestly, that's how I have gotten to know a lot of the DLC characters, like Min-Min, Terry, and others.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

So I'm seeing one thing repeatedly and I'm frankly confused by it.

I keep seeing people say Kazuya is lame because "he's another fighting game character. Not another fighting game character."

But like... counting Kazuya, we only have five.

Ryu
Ken
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

Its even weirder because Ken is an Echo and Min Min has none of the gimmicks Terry and Ryu share.

Kazuya isn’t even likely to have the same gimmick as Ryu and Terry because hes from a 3D fighter with a completely different flow of gameplay and control scheme.

Its really weird that this has become a consistent complaint people have with Kazuya.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I feel like people would like more Joker in Smash if his game was on a Nintendo console. Some days ago (not long after Kazuya reveal) we were talking on a Nintendo discord server about which game from the Smash ultimate dlc people have played before or after the characters announcement, and many people never played Persona 5 or any Persona games. People usually like to play character they recognize.

To be fair I think the word "hate" is a bit strong. I don't think Joker is that hated, it's just that since he come for a more niche game (compare to like Tekken, Minecraft, Final fantasy), and that he's not on a Nintendo console (aside from Strikers), many Smash fans are less attached to him.

Also keep in mind that Joker is a top tier with a capital T and they almost always get hate thrown their way. It seems like Joker gets much less of this now (for reasons I don't know) but...yeah.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Basic an excuse as it may seem, I find it really hard to dislike the excessive amount of fighting game characters, when Smash itself is... ya know, a fighting game. If it weren't for these characters and their games who knows if we'd even be on this site rn.

Yeah they may blend together with their command input mechanics, and automatic turnarounds and such, but I think they all earned their spots here.

Making every single FGC newcomer have the autoturnaround mechanic would be a lil lame so I'd like that to be more sporadic, but other than that yeah this is a fighting game! More fighting game fighters just feels RIGHT. They have the most potential to be transferred over into Smash while still feeling like they do in their own games without making awkward mechanical sacrifices. Gimme Chun-Li and Nightmare and Kyo and Morrigan and all of em please

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It is worth noting that Tekken doesn't have an auto turnaround mechanic, so while he does have a backdash, there isn't a garuntee that Kazuya will be forced to face his opponents; It will just be easier for him to move around while doing so at the very least.

 

[Inferno7]

As someone who enjoyed Angry Birds during a big part of my childhood, I must say no.
Characters like Red don't have a place in Smash as fully playable fighters, idk what people think would be so amazing out of that. It's the same thing with Plants vs. Zombies, people hold onto nostalgia without realizing these additions don't properly fit in and would age very very badly.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As someone who enjoyed Angry Birds during a big part of my childhood, I must say no.
Characters like Red don't have a place in Smash as fully playable, idk what people think would be so amazing out of that. It's the same thing with Plants vs. Zombies, people hold onto nostalgia without realizing these additions don't properly fit in and would age very very badly.

Why do they not fit?

 

[SKX31]

To save us from ranking hell...

I like Isabelle a lot. I think she's super fun and has a fun trapper playstyle.

I see her on the lower end of a lot of lists. Why is that?

Do you just not like Isabelle as a character? Do you not like her moveset? Do you not like the fact that she is a semi clone? What's the reason?

I do like Isabelle as a character and the idea behind her playstyle is solid - as a more trap / mind game focused AC character. There's

My issue with Isabelle's kit in Smash specifically is that her specials are both more dependent on specific situations and the moveset overall is not really able to capitalize on their strengths. It's what Puppy alluded to with #3 - she has a trap and a grab that can keep people off her... but if the opponent chooses to ignore / destroy the Lloid Trap (which has 8 HP) or shield the Fishing Rod there's not a whole lot she can do to capitalize on those. It's a bit of a shame since the latter can catch recoveries really well.

TBF there are instances where I think Sakurai and co. did well with Isabelle's moveset. Her increased speed compared to Villager allows her to take better advantage of Pocket (which helps her immensely when dealing with / for example) and her unique moves are overall solid since they're more versatile and consistent than Villager's. Villager's normals can take a bit more advantage out of Lloid Rocket / Tree though.

For me, she could use a slight rework or significant buffs. Lloid Trap having more HP / lasting longer on the field for example, so it can't be just destroyed by the opponent throwing out a tilt attack. Giving her more unique moves would likewise allow Sakurai and co. not only to differentiate her further from Villager and make her stand out, but also perhaps synergize with her specials.

Also give her her voice pls Sakurai.

So I'm seeing one thing repeatedly and I'm frankly confused by it.

I keep seeing people say Kazuya is lame because "he's another fighting game character. Not another fighting game character."

But like... counting Kazuya, we only have five.

Ryu
Ken
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

Honestly? I wouldn't be surprised if one small but contributing factor is people making the "I have no clue how to deal with this character therefore bad" leap of logic (whether offline or online). Going by experience from other multiplayer heavy games (not just my MW) there are always those people who when losing to a certain (type of) character will complain "X character (type) OP pls nerf" without really considering their own faults (because of course it never is /s).

Not saying it's a majority of the playerbase, but the ragers are loud and sadly visible.

Also keep in mind that Joker is a top tier with a capital T and they almost always get hate thrown their way. It seems like Joker gets much less of this now (for reasons I don't know) but...yeah.

I'm suspecting that the reduction of top-tier related hate is due to the pandemic, the relative lack of offline events until now as a result of the pandemic and MKLeo taking a break from the character during the online era because he's not comfortable playing a more campy Joker online. In the interim Min Min got a lot of similar hate as well (especially in Japan). I do suspect that when he returns with Joker and perhaps starts taking supermajor tourneys again the top tier hate will return.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Just to bring back Frisk talk again and recalling a somewhat collective idea about how the insane popularity of the Sans Mii Costumes was taken notice off by Sakurai and Nintendo, thus being a motive for potentially adding Frisk

I went back to Toby Fox's tweet about the costume being announced... it has around 210,000 likes on Twitter, 74,000 retweets, and 3,000 replies.

That's more of all three things than the initial Sephiroth pic: only around 110,000 likes on Twitter, 17,000 retweets, and 800 replies.

 

[Inferno7]

Why do they not fit?

People complained about Steve for being too awkward, now imagine that but 100 times worse, featuring a bird without any limbs at all and from an old and kinda faddy mobile game without any ties to NIntendo whatsoever (if they don't even put Dragalia Lost in why should they this?).
Also not really a fan of the ''wacky means good'' mentality that some Smash fans have. Not everything has to be made a fighter.
Says a lot that PvZ has Crazy Dave, a side character (who also doesn't do anything), as their top pick.

 

[Louie G.]

Honestly as much as I genuinely think Kazuya looks great, my biggest gripe has nothing to do with the supposed overlap in fighting game character gimmicks.

I’m just tired of comeback mechanics lmao. So I’m very curious how they’ll handle Devil Gene with that in mind, since the trailer cinematic seems to imply it may be a reward system instead, but we can also very clearly see a Tekken rage visual effect as well. Lucario’s Aura is my least favorite gimmick and the gradual increase in that sort of thing bugs me a little bit. Not enough to outright dislike any of those other characters, mind you.

 

[Perkilator]

So I'm seeing one thing repeatedly and I'm frankly confused by it.

I keep seeing people say Kazuya is lame because "he's another fighting game character. Not another fighting game character."

But like... counting Kazuya, we only have five.

Ryu
Ken
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

Probably just making up any excuse they can if it's not a character they want. If you don't like Kazuya, that's fine, but don't try to justify it with "lol too many fighting game characters"

 

[Evil Trapezium]

People complained about Steve for being too awkward, now imagine that but 100 times worse, featuring a bird without any limbs at all and from an old and kinda faddy mobile game without any ties to NIntendo whatsoever (if they don't even put Dragalia Lost in why should they this?).
Also not really a fan of the ''wacky means good'' mentality that some Smash fans have. Not everything has to be made a fighter.
Says a lot that PvZ has Crazy Dave, a side character (who also doesn't do anything), as their top pick.

You can just say you don't like the idea of an Angry Birds rep as a playable character. No one is going to crucify you for saying so.

 

[Shroob]

6 days from now, we'll all probably be waiting for the Kazuya patch to drop in several hours.


Then the literal next day(If not hours/minutes/seconds after)

"Where CP11?"

 

[Idon]

Honestly as much as I genuinely think Kazuya looks great, my biggest gripe has nothing to do with the supposed overlap in fighting game character gimmicks.

I’m just tired of comeback mechanics lmao. So I’m very curious how they’ll handle Devil Gene with that in mind, since the trailer cinematic seems to imply it may be a reward system instead, but we can also very clearly see a Tekken rage visual effect as well. Lucario’s Aura is my least favorite gimmick and the gradual increase in that sort of thing bugs me a little bit. Not enough to outright dislike any of those other characters, mind you.

I've bad news for you then because that is exactly how Kazuya's Rage mechanic functions in Tekken.

The Devil transformation seems to be separate from the Rage mechanic as he can turn into Devil Kaz for some attacks without being in rage however.

Rage WILL give him access to his Rage Drive "Heaven's Door" (the big flying command grab chokeslam) so I've no doubt he at least has that in rage.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

6 days from now, we'll all probably be waiting for the Kazuya patch to drop in several hours.


Then the literal next day(If not hours/minutes/seconds after)

"Where CP11?"
View attachment 320289

Imagine if Sakurai says in the presentation "We'll need more time, but trust us.. the wait will be WORTH IT"

Imagine the hype behind that

 

[Technomage]

So I'm seeing one thing repeatedly and I'm frankly confused by it.

I keep seeing people say Kazuya is lame because "he's another fighting game character. Not another fighting game character."

But like... counting Kazuya, we only have five.

Ryu
Ken
Terry
Min Min
Kazuya

Like... what are people complaining about. That's five characters out of 80+.

What is even happening?

I think people are complaining about getting more fighting game reps due to thinking it's a sign that that genre could get oversaturated in Smash, just like with platformers and JRPGs.

But still, I'm not complaining about them right now.

 

[Inferno7]

You can just say you don't like the idea of an Angry Birds rep as a playable character. No one is going to crucify you for saying so.

the guy asked so I had to give a reason
I did like Angry Birds, but wouldn't like a fighter that's all, mainly because it would look extremely awkward and out of place but in a bad way.

 

[Perkilator]

There's no worse feeling than waiting even longer for a character after waiting patiently for their presentation. I understand that polishing takes time even in the days just before release, but the selfish side of me can't really take that much waiting after waiting for the next character to be revealed, and then waiting for their presentation.

 

[Þe 1 → Way]

Says a lot that PvZ has Crazy Dave, a side character, as their top pick.

Crazy Dave works because hes been in every game as a substantial character and has an incredibly easy way to work plants into the game, who are the main gameplay tool and are chocked full of personality. Plants are what matters for a PvZ rep.
Looking at Plants vs Zombies with the perspective of side and main characters is completely missing the point of Plants vs Zombies.

 

[kylexv]

On the topic of comeback mechanics, pretty much every Fighter's Pass character (excluding ) has some sort of gimmick to have them stand out from the rest of the roster. Y'know when the roster is almost 70 numbered fighters, you'll need the DLC characters to stand out in some way. However, it seems that more than a few times the developers seem to pick a character, look at them, and make them unique by adding in a comeback mechanic

Unique DLC Mechanics:

• Comeback Mechanic: and maybe
  
• Resource Meters:
• A Special Move with limited uses:
• ARMS mechanic (both attack buttons attack with a different arm):
• Transformation:

You can see that there's a little disparity here. Personally, I don't have an issue with comeback mechanics as long as they're balanced and don't feel unfair on the receiving end (Joker pushes this boundary a little bit. Arsene still feels a little too strong).

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Terry went from getting a ton of flak to being a fan favorite after the Sakurai Presents. It will happen to Kazuya too. Plenty of people will grumble that a fighting game character got in not because a fighting game character got in, but because a fighting game character got in as CP 10. That means there is only one last character we know, and it could have been your character. At the end of the day, most of the flak will fade by the first week of July and Kazuya will become likely as beloved as Terry did.

Then everyone will get mad at CP11 no matter who it is, even if it is Crash or someone else hype because it means your most wanted is not going to get in ultimate.

 

[GilTheGreat19]

Terry went from getting a ton of flak to being a fan favorite after the Sakurai Presents. It will happen to Kazuya too. Plenty of people will grumble that a fighting game character got in not because a fighting game character got in, but because a fighting game character got in as CP 10. That means there is only one last character we know, and it could have been your character. At the end of the day, most of the flak will fade by the first week of July and Kazuya will become likely as beloved as Terry did.

Then everyone will get mad at CP11 no matter who it is, even if it is Crash or someone else hype because it means your most wanted is not going to get in ultimate.

Dude, fr
fighting game characters are just cool

 

[Guynamednelson]

To be fair on the whole Doomguy x Isabelle pairing, the whole reason Doomguy became so violent and vengeful was becuase his pet bunny was murdered. So Doomguy clearly values fuzzy animals.

And modern Doom REALLY wants you to know Doomguy had a pet rabbit. It was a more obscure piece of information before the revival because you had to go through the absolute hell (no pun intended) that is Thy Flesh Consumed to learn that the rabbit in Inferno's ending was Doomguy's. And then Eternal added several rabbit easter eggs (again no pun intended).

 

[Technomage]

There's no worse feeling than waiting even longer for a character after waiting patiently for their presentation. I understand that polishing takes time even in the days just before release, but the selfish side of me can't really take that much waiting after waiting for the next character to be revealed, and then waiting for their presentation.

Yeah, tell me about it; I'm getting real excited to get Kaz into my game.

I just wish Nintendo would spend a bit more money on staff to get their stuff finished sooner.