Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Michael the Spikester]

Discussions about Sora haven't happened anymore after that Disney deconfirmation rumour. Plus, Sephiroth happened. Hayabusa have been kinda deconfirmed by NG producer as well.

Sora fans: Bu-b-but Sora is 100% Disney! Not Square!

 

[SKX31]

I don’t know if anyone else has the same experience or if I just haven’t been paying attention, but I rarely ever see competitive threads on the front page of latest posts, most of the time it’s just Newcomer Speculation (This thread, individual support threads, RTC, Character Exploration, etc.), Social Threads, Forum Games, or Creation Threads that I see get updated.

I was today years old when I learned there are competitive threads on Smashboards. I guess I should have imagined it but I honestly thought this site just had speculation and Smash-related social threads.

Part of the issue is that there's only one thread that's active really, and that's the Competitive character impressions thread. Even then that thread sees 5-ish posts on a relatively active day - maybe more if there's a debate going on. A lot of traffic is on the subreddit / the discord servers (every character has one for instance), so I have to assume that's where most of the competitive-leaning people discuss related events / ask questions related to matchups.

Still a pretty good place to discuss competitve-related stuff, even if some debates can be a bit strange.

Banjos are brave instruments.

Kazooie grumbles in the background and is about to argue that she's braver.

 

[Shroob]

I really hate how the lack of last year's E3 makes us doubt the idea of a double reveal.

Honestly, if we get a Smash reveal right at the start, and they don't pull a side segment with "What you just saw is", I'll 100% expect a 2nd reveal later in the show.


If the reveal is middle/late in the show, or they pull a segment like I mentioned before, I'll think that's all we're getting.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Honestly, if we get a Smash reveal right at the start, and they don't pull a side segment with "What you just saw is", I'll 100% expect a 2nd reveal later in the show.


If the reveal is middle/late in the show, or they pull a segment like I mentioned before, I'll think that's all we're getting.

I'm definitely gonna agree with this.

 

[Idon]

Honestly, if we get a Smash reveal right at the start, and they don't pull a side segment with "What you just saw is", I'll 100% expect a 2nd reveal later in the show.


If the reveal is middle/late in the show, or they pull a segment like I mentioned before, I'll think that's all we're getting.

Unless it's a Kencineroar style double reveal!

Which totally isn't happening.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

N64 Model Mods for Smash Ultimate.

The creator did a bunch of others as well.

Spoiler

Brawl Mods for Ultimate.

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Earthbound really did inspire, like, twenty different games.

To be honest, I'm honestly a little sick of games like that. I get the whole appeal is the creativity as opposed to the medieval-ish fantasy stuff from most other RPGs, but at this point I'm like "put it on the pile", you know?

Modern day indie dev: Hey guys enjoy another earthbound/paper mario inspired RPG for the 1000th time : )

Some SEGA AM2 dev in 2003: 1 8 W H E E L E R T R U C K G A N G W A R S

 

[rychu_supadude]

Dang really? Discord continues to destroy all the forums on the Internet how saaaaad

If you think about it, this thread is very close to a Discord in function, which is atypical for a forum. There's a lot of topics that should be in their own thread, but everyone puts them in here because that's where all the attention is. And so it keeps chugging along.

The idea of evidence for Smash speculation is the funniest **** in this age of leaker crackdown. We do not know jack, but the people who said that XYZ was a lock are going to become very quiet...

 

[GoodGrief741]

I really hate how the lack of last year's E3 makes us doubt the idea of a double reveal.

Even if there had been an E3 last year with two reveals I'd still doubt it this year. It's not an expectation based on precedent or the lack thereof, but rather one predicated on Nintendo wanting to extend the Ultimate hype cycle for as long as they can, which isn't a situation comparable to any other.

 

[Shroob]

Even if there had been an E3 last year with two reveals I'd still doubt it this year. It's not an expectation based on precedent or the lack thereof, but rather one predicated on Nintendo wanting to extend the Ultimate hype cycle for as long as they can, which isn't a situation comparable to any other.

The big question I have in all this is, do they 'want' do extend it, especially sinceSakurai's been extremely vocal about "TWO MORE AND THAT'S IT FOLKS!"


That's something we just don't know.

 

[subterrestrial]

does sakurai decide if there’s more dlc? Or nintendo ?

 

[chocolatejr9]

does sakurai decide if there’s more dlc? Or nintendo ?

Both, I would imagine.

 

[SNEKeater]

Sora fans: Bu-b-but Sora is 100% Disney! Not Square!

But... He is 100% owned by Disney. And I'm not a diehard Sora fan.

 

[chocolatejr9]

But... He is 100% owned by Disney. And I'm not a diehard Sora fan.

It'll be 200% once Disney figures out a way to buy Japanese companies...

 

[SharkLord]

But... He is 100% owned by Disney. And I'm not a diehard Sora fan.

Apparently they still need Square Enix's permission to use him in stuff to some degree, I think? So they fully own him legally, but Squeenix still has a word in things? Which is kinda confusing when it comes to stuff like this

..I mean, if there's anything that's gonna be confusing as %$#@ regarding rights there isn't much that's as fitting as Kingdom fricking Hearts...

 

[GoodGrief741]

Apparently they still need Square Enix's permission to use him in stuff to some degree, I think? So they fully own him legally, but Squeenix still has a word in things? Which is kinda confusing when it comes to stuff like this

You got a source on that? Because this is the first time I'm hearing this and it contradicts statements we have from actual Disney employees (and like a ton of copyright notices). With how much bull**** is floated around about Sora, even from otherwise reliable sources, it's best to be sure.

 

[cashregister9]

Disney Fully owns the original characters, They only need Square Enix when it comes to the final fantasy content, that includes Spell names like Fire, Fira, Firaga etc.

 

[DuskFleur]

Twitter discussion is such a ****show right now. Today saw a surge in mud slinging from Crash/Western fans towards JRPG fans. And Family Guy memes, for some reason…

Also, on a similar note and pertaining to the current topic, as much as I want Sora to be in Smash, I’m afraid of the fandom ****show that would happen simply on the basis that Sora is, well, a JRPG protagonist. There would be enough salt to fill a mineshaft.
And regardless of who owns Sora, who’s to say that Sora would not be chosen simply on the basis that he’s half Square Enix, when we have Sephiroth already as this Pass’s “Square rep”? “One rep per company per pass” is just another fan rule, one that just might be quashed, just like all the other fan rules before it.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Just wait that its neither Crash nor Sora and its Master Chief.

See where it goes from there then.

 

[Idon]

Just wait till it's the Demi-fiend from cult-classic apoclayptic JRPG Shin Mega-

 

[rychu_supadude]

It would be incredibly surprising if SE wasn't involved in any hypothetical Sora negotiation and development, regardless of legal ownership. Nintendo could have developed B&K by talking only to Microsoft, but Rare were still involved. Is a timeline where Disney says "yes" and Square says "no" and it actually matters feasible? Ask a dozen people and you'll somehow get a dozen answers.

In the absence of evidence, speculation relies on observing patterns as much as anything. And the one I keep going back to is the much shorter timeframes between character reveal and character release since this pass started. I still think that we'll only get a double reveal if they're also ready for a double release, but patterns are made to be broken. The original "December" deadline has also been overlooked quite a bit.

If the final two characters do turn out to be from Ubisoft and pre-acquisition Bethesda, with the Mii costumes having been an odd kind of foreshadowing, that could shape speculation for the next game in an interesting new direction.

 

[SNEKeater]

Apparently they still need Square Enix's permission to use him in stuff to some degree, I think? So they fully own him legally, but Squeenix still has a word in things? Which is kinda confusing when it comes to stuff like this

..I mean, if there's anything that's gonna be confusing as %$#@ regarding rights there isn't much that's as fitting as Kingdom fricking Hearts...

I've read that and I'm not sure if it's truth.

I mean, I could believe it. I could see Disney being good and asking Nomura or other important people at Square when they want to do something with the IP, even if it's just to show some kind of respect and all. After all, Square Enix develops and creates the games.
So, I'm very sure if Sora gets in that Sakurai would talk with Square, or at least Nomura, who is friends with Sakurak AFAIK, because... Well, there's nothing that says he couldn't do that, even if Square/Nomura aren't the owners.

Bayonetta isn't owned by Platinum but I'm pretty sure any conversations Sakurai had were mostly with Kamiya or other people from Platinum Games, for example. This wouldn't be that different.

If Nintendo is actually following the idea of "no third parties double dipping on the same Pass" Sora would be technically still safe because he's fully owned by Disney. But Square Enix are the creators/devs of KH, which doesn't necessarily mean owners, and at that point Nintendo would probably contact Nomura for some input or advices while developing Sora's moveset.

 

[7NATOR]

No Matter how Hype or Unhype the Last 2 characters are, there will be a question I always have

How Come they decided on Min Min being the first character, in your guys' Personal Opinion? Usually the first reveals are supposed to be huge bombshells, and Min Min I don't know was the character for that. I did hear Speculation that Sephiroth was actually supposed to be first, but that's neither here or there

 

[WeirdChillFever]

They've done literally all of those things though. Not reveal hype characters at E3? K. Rool says hi. Revealing unhype characters alone without anything to mitigate backlash? Byleth. There's so many things that they've done that we thought would be dumb and that are still dumb in hindsight, so I don't think that's a very strong argument.

We knew by Byleth that a Pass 2 was coming though, so it’s not exactly the same hence the “the prospect of more coming”. K. Rool is a good point although between it being the introduction of Smash Ultimate (Everyone Is Here) and Ridley, there’s not much more that that E3 could’ve done to make it even more about Smash. For the upcoming E3, we‘d be talking about the number of trailers that is standard to E3.

 

[PeridotGX]

raticate!!

he's in.

 

[GoodGrief741]

No Matter how Hype or Unhype the Last 2 characters are, there will be a question I always have

How Come they decided on Min Min being the first character, in your guys' Personal Opinion? Usually the first reveals are supposed to be huge bombshells, and Min Min I don't know was the character for that. I did hear Speculation that Sephiroth was actually supposed to be first, but that's neither here or there

Might just be a development thing, like with Min Min having a very particular control scheme that warranted giving her the extra time between Passes like Steve.

Or maybe the "one or two characters" Sakurai thought would be enough were, say, an ARMS rep and a Xenoblade 2 rep (a true second chance pass) and Min Min was already in the works when they decided to expand the Pass to 6.

Or maybe they wanted to lead with a first party character to assuage complaints from the first Pass that it was all third parties.

We'll probably never know but those are my best guesses. It's kinda random but not really a mystery for the ages imo

 

[BlondeLombax]

No Matter how Hype or Unhype the Last 2 characters are, there will be a question I always have

How Come they decided on Min Min being the first character, in your guys' Personal Opinion? Usually the first reveals are supposed to be huge bombshells, and Min Min I don't know was the character for that. I did hear Speculation that Sephiroth was actually supposed to be first, but that's neither here or there

Ehuh. She was the big E3 reveal last year, too, so that just goes to show we can't pin all the big-big names' hopes on this time of the year. She was the fan and staff favorite, though, so that may have something to do with it.

 

[osby]

No Matter how Hype or Unhype the Last 2 characters are, there will be a question I always have

How Come they decided on Min Min being the first character, in your guys' Personal Opinion? Usually the first reveals are supposed to be huge bombshells, and Min Min I don't know was the character for that. I did hear Speculation that Sephiroth was actually supposed to be first, but that's neither here or there

My opinion is that people hung up on the reveal orders way too much when they'll stop mattering the second we get the final character.

 

[Paraster]

No Matter how Hype or Unhype the Last 2 characters are, there will be a question I always have

How Come they decided on Min Min being the first character, in your guys' Personal Opinion? Usually the first reveals are supposed to be huge bombshells, and Min Min I don't know was the character for that. I did hear Speculation that Sephiroth was actually supposed to be first, but that's neither here or there

I thought at the time is was a sign that Fighters Pass 2 wouldn't rely as much on crazy third parties as Pass 1...but she was immediately followed up by Steve and Sephiroth.

Maybe it's just that they saw the break between 1 and 2 as more of a checkpoint than a reset of the hype cycle, so they didn't actually see Min Min as a "first reveal."

 

[7NATOR]

My opinion is that people hung up on the reveal orders way too much when they'll stop mattering the second we get the final character.

I get that, I just ask this from a Marketing standpoint

Usually with any sort of Paid content, whether full games or DLC, It's preferred to get early sales since it's easier to plan around the future and stuff, which is why Pre-order bonuses are a huge thing.

With that being said, Sephiroth and Steve would have done a bigger job of that than Min Min I feel. FP2 still sold great anyway even when Min Min was the only character for a long time, but it might have done better from the start if the order was changed

Ehuh. She was the big E3 reveal last year, too, so that just goes to show we can't pin all the big-big names' hopes on this time of the year. She was the fan and staff favorite, though, so that may have something to do with it.

Technically there was no E3 Last year, but I get what you mean.

Might just be a development thing, like with Min Min having a very particular control scheme that warranted giving her the extra time between Passes like Steve.

Or maybe the "one or two characters" Sakurai thought would be enough were, say, an ARMS rep and a Xenoblade 2 rep (a true second chance pass) and Min Min was already in the works when they decided to expand the Pass to 6.

Or maybe they wanted to lead with a first party character to assuage complaints from the first Pass that it was all third parties.

We'll probably never know but those are my best guesses. It's kinda random but not really a mystery for the ages imo

I thought at the time is was a sign that Fighters Pass 2 wouldn't rely as much on crazy third parties as Pass 1...but she was immediately followed up by Steve and Sephiroth.

Maybe it's just that they saw the break between 1 and 2 as more of a checkpoint than a reset of the hype cycle, so they didn't actually see Min Min as a "first reveal."

The 1st Party thing, I don't know if they were that worried about, enough to have that be a main factor in putting Min Min First. I could see that Min Min might have needed extra time in the oven compared to other characters (along with Steve) and I also could see FP1 and FP2 being seen as more connected like a checkpoint, though I'm not sure since at the end of the day, FP2 is a seperate purchase from FP1

In any case, I actually have a theory that perhaps the ordering and perhaps release schedule of FP2 was changed was Covid was factored in. Here's my proposed original Lineup (Reveal/Release)

Sephiroth (April/June) - Min Min (June/July) - Steve (June/October) - Pyra/Mythra (September or October/December) - CP11 (January or February/March) - CP10 (June/June)

 

[GoodGrief741]

I get that, I just ask this from a Marketing standpoint

Usually with any sort of Paid content, whether full games or DLC, It's preferred to get early sales since it's easier to plan around the future and stuff, which is why Pre-order bonuses are a huge thing.

With that being said, Sephiroth and Steve would have done a bigger job of that than Min Min I feel. FP2 still sold great anyway even when Min Min was the only character for a long time, but it might have done better from the start if the order was changed



Technically there was no E3 Last year, but I get what you mean.





The 1st Party thing, I don't know if they were that worried about, enough to have that be a main factor in putting Min Min First. I could see that Min Min might have needed extra time in the oven compared to other characters (along with Steve) and I also could see FP1 and FP2 being seen as more connected like a checkpoint, though I'm not sure since at the end of the day, FP2 is a seperate purchase from FP1

In any case, I actually have a theory that perhaps the ordering and perhaps release schedule of FP2 was changed was Covid was factored in. Here's my proposed original Lineup (Reveal/Release)

Sephiroth (April/June) - Min Min (June/July) - Steve (June/October) - Pyra/Mythra (September or October/December) - CP11 (January or February/March) - CP10 (June/June)

I don't see what you might be basing that on. Especially the part with CP10 and 11 being swapped, we don't even know who they are so there can't possibly be any basis for it.

 

[SharkLord]

You got a source on that? Because this is the first time I'm hearing this and it contradicts statements we have from actual Disney employees (and like a ton of copyright notices). With how much bull**** is floated around about Sora, even from otherwise reliable sources, it's best to be sure.

I dug around a bit and I found the comment I remembered.

I just wanna point out from the quick Sora Talk a few page back to fix up something.
Sora is legally 100% owned by Disney, Disney own the KH IP.
However, they cannot do anything without Square-Enix's involvement, they tried in the past, with a cancelled Mobile game, only to have Square-Enix reportedly Furious at how the game looked like and ended having the project cancelled.

Legally, Disney own Sora, but when it comes to actual decisions, it was already said, it's a double okay that you'd need, Square and Disney. Which probably explain why Sora was a name that Square themselves threw around a long time ago back when they were trying to gaslight who was the SE reps with names.

Though, you're right in that trying to decipher what's right or wrong regarding KH rights. I suppose we should wait for the guy to come down and find the sources to clear things up?

 

[GoodGrief741]

I dug around a bit and I found the comment I remembered.

Though, you're right in that trying to decipher what's right or wrong regarding KH rights. I suppose we should wait for the guy to come down and find the sources to clear things up?

Oh, then I misunderstood what you were saying. Because yeah, it's a known fact that Disney respects Square Enix's creative input on anything KH and will likely not do anything that they and Nomura don't approve of. Not for copyright reasons but rather corporate respect.

The canceled mobile game is news to me though so I'd still like to hear more about that.

 

[SharkLord]

Oh, then I misunderstood what you were saying. Because yeah, it's a known fact that Disney respects Square Enix's creative input on anything KH and will likely not do anything that they and Nomura don't approve of. Not for copyright reasons but rather corporate respect.

The canceled mobile game is news to me though so I'd still like to hear more about that.

Yeah, upon second look I do wonder what that mobile game was

Mostly how much extra frickery it would add to the lore because let's not kid ourselves it would most definitely add at least another layer of mind screw

 

[7NATOR]

I don't see what you might be basing that on. Especially the part with CP10 and 11 being swapped, we don't even know who they are so there can't possibly be any basis for it.

For Sephiroth, the thought process is that he was supposed to be timed for the Remake's Release, at least for his reveal. the reason he might have gotten delayed all the way to December is because of Square wanting him to be revealed where Remake is relevant

There was an Instagram Post on the Smash Instagram page that had Sephiroth listed as Challenger Pack 6, and I'm unsure if it was just a Grammar error since you had to edit everything and such for the page.

The General delay in Reveal/Release months is because of Covid, and the shift from Office to Home environment. One of the main things Impacted by this was the balancing/Bug fixing of the characters, which can take awhile

For the Part about CP10 and CP11 being swapped, I Imagine that CP10 is gonna be the Major Priority here, since they are the character they might definitely come out around E3. Nintendo Likely planned for 2 E3 Presentations. Since I think in this hypothetical timeline, Nintendo would have finished with the Fighter Pass by June, that would only put one character for E3

Final Characters usually aren't big, but because E3 is an Big event, I Imagine they might find a compromise on the idea. besides that, E3 might be the preferred time for this particular character to be revealed and/or Released, especially if it's 3rd party and the 3rd Party wishes for it to come on this day. I'd say CP10 is this and Not CP11 because I Imagine the focus on Development would have been on CP10 to make sure they were ready for E3, at least to reveal and such

 

[Cosmic77]

If they had always intended on revealing the ARMS character info in March 2020, then it seems pretty obvious why they started with Min Min. They revealed Pyra this March, so I'd assume they're trying to order these reveals so that they line up to where the third-parties can be revealed at special events like E3 or TGAs.

Keyword is "trying". Sometimes things aren't ready in time, sometimes we get delays. I'm sure they would've loved to reveal Steve at E3 2020 when they were in the planning stages, but obviously that couldn't happen.

 

[subterrestrial]

is there any evidence for e3 = 3rd party or is it just the expected hype ?

they usually save the first party promotions for last (as they should imo)

 

[Noipoi]

is there any evidence for e3 = 3rd party or is it just the expected hype ?

they usually save the first party promotions for last (as they should imo)

Well Ridley was first party, and he was at E3. Ridley was also one of the most requested characters in smash history though.

I think the real correlation is E3=Hype. And third party’s are simply considered to be more hype by the fanbase.

 

[PSIGuy]

is there any evidence for e3 = 3rd party or is it just the expected hype ?

they usually save the first party promotions for last (as they should imo)

I mean, when you look at where each character was revealed:
Joker: The VGAs
Hero and Banjo: E3
Terry: regular direct, + new fighter pass announcement
Byleth: Smash only direct
Arms hint/Minmin reveal: regular direct, and Smash only direct
Steve: Prior to Minecon
Sephiroth: The VGAs
Pyra/Mythra: Nintendo Direct

Other than Terry it all lines up pretty consistently.

 

[Shroob]

Is it really any surprise that 3rd party characters are typically saved for the events that'll have millions of eyes on it?


It's really not that strange. Historically, Nintendo characters have either been in normal Directs, OR come alongside 'big' reveals. This more or less held true for E3 2014 as well, where even though Palutena was revealed, we had Miis, which were being touted as this big new feature of "Now YOU can be in Smash", and later that day, Pac Man was also revealed.


Now of course, this isn't a pattern by any means, Cloud and Terry were revealed in a standard Direct, but Cloud was also used as a hook to announce "HEY, LOOK, WE'RE DOING A BIG, FINAL PRESENTATION! CLOUD'LL BE THERE, YOU DON'T WANNA MISS IT!"

And as much as I love Terry.... he's definitely the smallest 3rd party we've gotten this cycle. That's not bad by any stretch of the imagination no, but he's definitely the smallest of them all, and probably the absolute cheapest to license if the sheer amount of content he came with is anything to go by.



Of course, this also works the other way as well.


Ridley, a 1st party character was revealed at E3 2018 with no 3rd party character, but at the same time, he was also like, the de-facto most wanted character, period, and alongside him was "EVERYONE IS HERE!"



There's no 'rule' that 3rd party characters are more likely for big events, but I also think Nintendo realizes that they'll get more eyes on them for "John Mc3rd party was shown off at the biggest gaming convention in the world" moreso than "We're adding another Nintendo character and going to use this once a year event to show it off."