Obviously going with the most realistic combo of Master Chief and Dota 2 representative baybee.
Nah, but I'd love to see those two as the final two, with KOS-MOS as a third choice. My only concern is if the final two characters have even jankier comeback mechanics than Arsene / OWA* (or if the final two are truly busted) but I'm feeling decently confident that Sakurai and co won't go there.
As for another pass, I'm pretty unsure of who else I'd include alongside say KOS-MOS. Dante or Amaterasu, Ring Fit or Style Savvy, LoL champion, Kratos / Lara Croft as well as a Blizzard character are pretty high up there, and would probably be included in my own designed Pass.
*I was listening to the most recent Tweek Talks podcast, where they discussed comeback mechanics:
They focused on
![Joker :ultjoker: :ultjoker:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's Arsene and
![Sephiroth :ultsephiroth: :ultsephiroth:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's One Wing in this episode, but
![Wario :ultwario: :ultwario:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's Waft and
![Terry :ult_terry: :ult_terry:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's GO were also talked about. Also included is
![Lucario :ultlucario: :ultlucario:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's Aura (very small mention).
So to drive some more discussion:
Are you personally okay with how comeback mechanics have been handled in Smash Bros? Any particular favorites / least favorites?
And, could one of your most wanted come with one?
For me, I'm pretty ambivalent on comeback mechanics. Most of them have counterplay to them (the exceptions being Waft and practically OWA getting online) and there are only a few aspects that can be overbearing when playing. Waft and GO moves require the user to hit them - so the counterplay becomes avoiding - which is fair - while Lucario (and to a lesser extent Joker / Sephiroth) might wind up losing stocks not long after and thus not get to do much with the comeback mechanics. On the other hand, the comeback mechanics can hit extremely hard like a gutpunch: the podcast focused on OWA since the massive 1.3X damage boost it brings allows Sephiroth's Smash attacks to hit harder than
![Ganondorf :ultganondorf: :ultganondorf:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's and the triple jump is a bonkers tool that overshadows
![Charizard :ultcharizard: :ultcharizard:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's and
![Banjo & Kazooie :ultbanjokazooie: :ultbanjokazooie:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's own triple jumps). Sephiroth can also be difficult to edgeguard thanks to his jumps, wall-cling and Octaslash covering the ledge, which makes it pretty frustrating to get rid of OWA (KOing him) sometimes.
So in the future... I honestly want to see them toned down a tad, but it isn't a bad idea in theory to have them.
As for my most wanted... Dante has Devil Trigger, which could be a comeback mechanic by virtue of slightly increased damage output, temporary flight, slight knockback resistance increase and maybe small but somewhat noticeable healing factor. It would be tricky to balance, but it's possible IMHO.
(Edit: Damnit, forgot
![Little Mac :ultlittlemac: :ultlittlemac:](data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7)
's KO Punch. That to me feels like a similar way to Terry's GO, except it's oftentimes once per stock for way more reward on hit.)
I will say that whether the Comeback mechanic is overtuned or not depends not only on the strength of the mechanic itself, but also the character it's attached to
as an example, I think One Winged Angel is fine, and it Helps showcases how Sephiroth is a Boss Character (Personally I think it works weird in Free for alls since You'll lose Wing when there be other opponents ahead, or in 1v1's if you're down like 2 stocks and even out the stocks, though I understand it's for balancing reasons). The Mode is also balanced with Sephiroth also, but putting a mechanic like One Winged on someone like Pikachu would be a bit much
I think Arsene might be a bit overtuned to be honest, and a big part of the reason is that Joker himself is already very good. I think if you couldn't get meter except when you did Down B (so No meter from getting hit or waiting, and no 20% meter after you die), it would be more balanced since Joker would have to use Down B to intercept moves if he wants Arsene, and it also forces both Joker and the Opponent not to be too predictable with their Approaches
The only Mechanic I would really overhaul is Lucario's Aura. I would just make Lucario closer to Goku (since we not gonna be getting him for long time at least
-Buff Lucario's moveset as a whole, to be Stronger, Faster, etc
-Don't make gettig Aura dependent on taking Damage. Instead you have to Power up your Aura by Powering up DBZ Style, which will Increase all your stats, Give every attack better and bigger hitboxes, etc
-You Lose Aura overtime, but you retain it longer by Interacting with opponents, whether you're hitting shield, the opponents themselves, getting hit, etc. Doing nothing will make you lose Aura super fast (to Discourage camping), and Charging does
Otherwise I think the other Comeback mechanics are fine and are pretty fun
As for Other potential Smash characters that could have some Comeback mechanics
-I think Devil Trigger would actually be the opposite of a Comeback mechanic. Perhaps the better you do, the more Devil Runes you get and also perhaps the longer Devil Trigger lasts, perhaps lasting infinitely as long as you can keep the Style meter to a S or Higher level (Okay maybe not that last part). Devil Trigger would boost all stats, allow Flight, and also unlock Exclusive moves for Dante and certain extensions of base moves
-For Shadow, I think Chaos Boost would be unique in that you can activate the mode at anytime (even at the start of the match) which is different from the other Comeback mechanics that usually need to be built up. It would boost all Stats and all Chaos powered moves. The downside would be that you take an Increased amount of Damage, Knockback, and hitstun if you get hit, you will take Damage overtime after a Certain amount of time, and the only way to Exit out of the mode is to Do Chaos Blast, which would be a really Strong move, but have High amounts of Endlag afterwards
Hey guys sorry to butt into the conversation but I figured I'd share something I'm thinking about and it could spark some discussion about what may come next.
Isn't the current lack of older characters in FP2 worth acknowledging? Like, I have no real issue with a focus on more modern characters and games, but I'm thinking back to FP1 where, by this point, we had Joker (2016), Hero (1986 and/or 2017), Banjo & Kazooie (1998) and Terry (1991). I'd say this is a pretty even spread of icons both old and new.
Meanwhile in FP2, Sephiroth is the only character who (formally) debuted over a decade ago (1997). There isn't anything deep to gauge from this, just the thought that perhaps we're due for another character who may break this mold a little further. It's seemingly arbitrary, but I do think it's something we should keep in mind. Perhaps the motto behind FP2 is just very different from FP1, but I still feel like some degree of another 80s-90s legacy character makes sense.
Like, I don't think Nintendo is thinking "damn we need a character who debuted this long ago" but moreso considering the opportunity to represent another longstanding and historically potent series and/or grab the attention of an older demographic. Given the very comfortable balance in FP1 I just feel like there's at least another one of these characters in store (if I had to guess, probably one more pre-2000s character and another post). For the sake of conversation, which characters do you think are in a good spot to fulfill this role, if such a role needs fulfilling?
I want to encourage voices from other people rather than just plug my choices, but I do think Arle fits this niche pretty nicely. I've always considered her possible addition to be "Terry-esque" and I like to believe they'd be willing to take the plunge on another character like that. But I wanna hear what you guys think.
This could apply to hundreds and hundreds of characters so this doesn't really narrow things down all that much, but it's struck me that the only truly frequently discussed / requested character who fits this mold and hasn't been shut down (RIP Hayabusa and Doomguy) is Crash Bandicoot... and sorta Eggman, I guess. Which is odd to me since I feel like the discussion was dominated by older nostalgic characters back in FP1, lmao.
I will say that I do think we will get another character that debuted before 2010's
However I actually do think that the Ingame evidence is telling us that we will actually get another 2010's character, through the tourneys. It's why I'm paying attention this week because it's tourney week. If Pyra/Mythra are the last 2010's character, now would be the perfect time to have the 2010's tourney
Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?
You didn't mention it, but I'll mention it here. Dante would actually Explain the Bonus Fighter thing slot, if it was Both Dante/Vergil. Vergil is Iconic to the DMC Series, and is like Shadow the Hedgehog if he wasn't controversial, so Adding both would be legendary. I like Vergil more between the Dante/Vergil, but Dante would also be cool
Unfortunately, I don't think Dante is getting into Ultimate, nor have I really thought so for awhile now. I did think he could be a mii costume, but I'm not even betting on that one anymore
I do have another pair of characters in mind that I might be predicting. It's not really an exciting addition for me, and it probably won't be for many of you as well, but I think the evidence might be in favor of those characters