Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[Shroob]

Quote, Reimu, Shovel Knight, Shantae, the Knight, Cadence

I don't think Nintendo would be keen on a character whose most iconic attack (aside from his basic attack) is a laser made of blood. Or the possibility of having to add a spirit based on Satan.
though i wish they were okay with these i'd love isaac

But we have an assist based on Satan.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok so I have come to the conclusion that if oyr boy Nick gets in somehow then we absolutely need AAI2 content, just beat it a while ago and even if it's just music and spirits of Sebastian, Justine or Raymond, I will dedicate every day in my life to sending a formal complaint should they fail to be acknowledged.


... Actually, if Sakurai does do that, how the hell will NoA respond to those Spirits?

 

[Technomage]

Ok so I have come to the conclusion that if oyr boy Nick gets in somehow then we absolutely need AAI2 content, just beat it a while ago and even if it's just music and spirits of Sebastian, Justine or Raymond, I will dedicate every day in my life to sending a formal complaint should they fail to be acknowledged.


... Actually, if Sakurai does do that, how the hell will NoA respond to those Spirits?

AAI2? What's that stand for?

 

[Shroob]

AAI2? What's that stand for?

Ace Attorney Investigations 2.

The mini series that stars Edgeworth.

 

[Dan Quixote]

Ok so I have come to the conclusion that if oyr boy Nick gets in somehow then we absolutely need AAI2 content, just beat it a while ago and even if it's just music and spirits of Sebastian, Justine or Raymond, I will dedicate every day in my life to sending a formal complaint should they fail to be acknowledged.


... Actually, if Sakurai does do that, how the hell will NoA respond to those Spirits?

Look I'm happy for Ryunosuke and Herlock I really am, I'm sure those games are great and they deserve to show up worldwide eventually.

But mannnnnnnn if it weren't for the fact that The Great Ace Attorney Chronicles is straight up TWO games I would have 100% preferred AAI2 get the English release. If the fan translation is that good, imagine how an official one would be. Genuinely one of the coolest and most enthralling stories ever told in Ace Attorney. All killer no filler.

 

[cothero]

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

Personally I'm not attached, but I follow enough people who would be really happy, so I'd be excited for them if that makes sense.

 

[SKX31]

In regards to comeback mechanics I don't have that many issues with them existing. However, I'll elaborate on the ones we do have.

My general opinion is this character is a MESS to begin with. From the ground up he's just weird and hasn't transitioned well, IMO, from game to game since Brawl. His comeback mechanic, Aura, just makes little sense from the getgo. I don't get what they were going for in terms of 'flavor' for how it functions. Aura in general is just incredibly vague, even in Pokémon. So HOW Aura gives him some super power buff when he's hurting is just strange. Is it supposed to represent 'fighter spirit' and the more 'down and out he is' the more 'determined' he gets? I could see such a thing working on a better character.

As for the mechanic itself it feels a little outdated. Everyone now gets 'Aura' to some degree due to the existence of Rage. While Rage has been toned down in Ultimate, in 4 it was just made Aura gross since it gave Lucario 'double rage'. I feel Lucario should ditch the 'Aura' gimmick and just get a BETTER move set that doesn't rely so heavily on Aura to be potent. When your 'comeback mechanic' forces you to take so much damage your core abilities are poor from the start to compensate for how 'good' they'll eventually become is a counter intuitive 'comeback mechanic'.

OWA is potent but it's also attached to a character who dies to a stiff breeze (And OWA does make him lighter still, does it not?). It can make him more of a glass cannon than he is. My experience with it has been limited to online and I've, personally, found OWA to not be that much of an issue. My opinion could change over time as offline becomes regular again.

I had major issues with Arsen and I still do to a degree. I feel it's too easy to get and get multiple times per stock. Considering Joker is pretty darn solid WITHOUT Arsen, amplifying his abilities is nuts when it doesn't even take much to trigger Arsen to begin with. They've tried to weak how much he gains/loses in meter but I still feel it's iffy. I'm honestly not even sure where to begin on tweaking the Arsen concept. Cuz Joker gets real cheesy once he goes Super Saiyan and just stray hits can kill or deal obscene damage for reasons.

GO! as a comeback mechanic is, at the very least, 'locked' behind a high percentage AND inputs to perform any of his moves. He doesn't really get an inherent global buff to all his stuff unlike the prior examples. Granting him access to two super moves that does require some execution to take advantage of a fair way to give him some form of 'comeback mechanic'. Not to mention his GO! moves on whiff are pretty punishable meaning he doesn't get anything 'for free'.

KO Punch, despite being a one button command for a comeback mechanic is balanced purely by the fact we're talking about Little Mac. With how rarely Mac will actually activate it and even more likely he'll lose it before he even gets to use it (Either being hit or just being dead as soon as it activated) the move is a non-issue on him. It's also a bit flavorful from his own series. It truly is a 'flex move' if you do manage to hit people with it to begin with.

Waft is an interesting beast. It's a bit obscene how strong it is...though it's balanced out to some degree by the time-per-charge factor (or if he eats to help quicken it, so avoiding giving him items to nom). It's a mechanic you can, as the player and the opponent, plan around because the move is static. You can also gauge when he is at his most deadly and when he isn't (Because it's timed, not based on interactions outside of item eating). However I wouldn't call Wario's Waft a comeback mechanic. His Waft doesn't charge faster if he gets hit. It doesn't charge faster if he's down stocks. It's just how Waft itself works as a move. It's a cheeky and cheesy move but it's not like "Oops you dealt enough damage to me so now I'm Super Wario and everything I've got is better". It's a mechanic. Not a comeback mechanic.


I don't think comeback mechanics are inherently bad. But the extent of what they offer is what's important. Lucario, Seph and Joker are examples of bad comeback mechanics in my eyes. Getting huge boons straight across the board and getting them frequently is simply poor design (Especially when attached to characters who are pretty strong from the getgo). Granting you explosive potential but still requiring some skill in their usage is a far better option. Not simply making your character 'better' for a time/until death.

Yeah, the "getting huge boons and getting them frequently" is what got me worried as well, especially with Arsene. Now he's not super-ridicolous (recovery becomes more exploitable, vurnerability to grab remains and is accentuated with Arsene), but stuff like Down Air-UpSmash or Tetra/Makarakarn's huge hitbox can make him feel oppressive at points. As for the meter point, I kinda think part of it is that currently Joker respawns each time with 20 % of Meter filled (and other stuff like that), so he's almost never at a point where he's at 0 % meter.

That relates to the Dante example I mentioned, where I was struggling a bit because I didn't want to give him those humongous buffs but wanted to stay faithful (to some degree) to what Devil Trigger does in the origin games. I do feel that to compensate Dante would have very low damage with each hit like , but able to string together combos akin to her (they both share a genre after all). With the crucial difference that Dante wouldn't be able to go as high or as far into the air as Bayo, but might be able to be more creative with how to pull of them (especially if you incorporate Style Switching / Devil Trigger to compensate). His high knockback moves like Stinger would also be rather telegraphed - so all in all, Devil Trigger might help with his damage / knockback output a bit (alongside other options) - but Devil Trigger does have counterplay in that it drains pretty quickly in its origin games, so I don't think it'd be that big of an issue. Arsene lasts for 30 secs if not damaged in that duration, so I kinda think that limiting Devil Trigger to 10-20 seconds might make it more manageable as well.

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

Been hoping since at least 2018. I'm still waiting for any trailer that opens with this:

 

[Mamboo07]

Y'all talkin' about big-name Indies and ignoring mah boi Isaac smh. Even got a global emote on Twitch.

Yo, he would be my pick for an indie rep!

If I had to choose a 2nd rep, I would go with Contusion and Suture aka the Gemini boss who would use the many bosses in their move set.
(Like having the Side special be Larry Jr slithering across the stage or a custom move with Pin jumping out of the ground, I can picture Monstro coming from above, Polycephalus bursting out from the ground, Famine charging at the opponents and many more possibilities.)
(Also, bigger twin whipping at the opponent with the smaller twin connected by an umbilical cord or as a tether recovery.)

not for good boys and girls, he's literally naked

Kirby, Yoshi, K. Rool and Ridley and all of the Pokemon:

(Kirby doesn't have clothes, Yoshi only wears shoes which is half-naked)

 

[Louie G.]

Hey guys sorry to butt into the conversation but I figured I'd share something I'm thinking about and it could spark some discussion about what may come next.

Isn't the current lack of older characters in FP2 worth acknowledging? Like, I have no real issue with a focus on more modern characters and games, but I'm thinking back to FP1 where, by this point, we had Joker (2016), Hero (1986 and/or 2017), Banjo & Kazooie (1998) and Terry (1991). I'd say this is a pretty even spread of icons both old and new.

Meanwhile in FP2, Sephiroth is the only character who (formally) debuted over a decade ago (1997). There isn't anything deep to gauge from this, just the thought that perhaps we're due for another character who may break this mold a little further. It's seemingly arbitrary, but I do think it's something we should keep in mind. Perhaps the motto behind FP2 is just very different from FP1, but I still feel like some degree of another 80s-90s legacy character makes sense.

Like, I don't think Nintendo is thinking "damn we need a character who debuted this long ago" but moreso considering the opportunity to represent another longstanding and historically potent series and/or grab the attention of an older demographic. Given the very comfortable balance in FP1 I just feel like there's at least another one of these characters in store (if I had to guess, probably one more pre-2000s character and another post). For the sake of conversation, which characters do you think are in a good spot to fulfill this role, if such a role needs fulfilling?

I want to encourage voices from other people rather than just plug my choices, but I do think Arle fits this niche pretty nicely. I've always considered her possible addition to be "Terry-esque" and I like to believe they'd be willing to take the plunge on another character like that. But I wanna hear what you guys think.

This could apply to hundreds and hundreds of characters so this doesn't really narrow things down all that much, but it's struck me that the only truly frequently discussed / requested character who fits this mold and hasn't been shut down (RIP Hayabusa and Doomguy) is Crash Bandicoot... and sorta Eggman, I guess. Which is odd to me since I feel like the discussion was dominated by older nostalgic characters back in FP1, lmao.

 

[Technomage]

Yo, he would be my pick for an indie rep!

If I had to choose a 2nd rep, I would go with Contusion and Suture aka the Gemini boss who would use the many bosses in their move set.
(Like having the Side special be Larry Jr slithering across the stage or a custom move with Pin jumping out of the ground, I can picture Monstro coming from above, Polycephalus bursting out from the ground, Famine charging at the opponents and many more possibilities.)
(Also, bigger twin whipping at the opponent with the smaller twin connected by an umbilical cord or as a tether recovery.)


Kirby, Yoshi, K. Rool and Ridley and all of the Pokemon:
View attachment 312883
(Kirby doesn't have clothes, Yoshi only wears shoes which is half-naked)

Plus, we don't even know if those are actually shoes Kirby's wearing, since that could be part of his skin (well, he is a shapeshifter).

 

[Megadoomer]

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

I'm definitely hoping for one, even if the developers go with a relatively bare-bones moveset like they did with Bayonetta (one of his swords, his two pistols, and maybe some punch/kick attacks if they need to fill a spot in the move-list) rather than digging into the sort of crazy weaponry that Devil May Cry can provide. (motorcycle-chainsaws, transforming briefcases, an electric guitar that shoots electric bats, a hat, etc.)

 

[Will]

I don't think Nintendo would be keen on a character whose most iconic attack (aside from his basic attack) is a laser made of blood. Or the possibility of having to add a spirit based on Satan.

Fearing the wrath of the Christians is so 1990s.

 

[SharkLord]

Hey guys sorry to butt into the conversation but I figured I'd share something I'm thinking about and it could spark some discussion about what may come next.

Isn't the current lack of older characters in FP2 worth acknowledging? Like, I have no real issue with a focus on more modern characters and games, but I'm thinking back to FP1 where, by this point, we had Joker (2016), Hero (1986 and/or 2017), Banjo & Kazooie (1998) and Terry (1991). I'd say this is a pretty even spread of icons both old and new.

Meanwhile in FP2, Sephiroth is the only character who (formally) debuted over a decade ago (1997). There isn't anything deep to gauge from this, just the thought that perhaps we're due for another character who may break this mold a little further. It's seemingly arbitrary, but I do think it's something we should keep in mind. Perhaps the motto behind FP2 is just very different from FP1, but I still feel like some degree of another 80s-90s legacy character makes sense.

Like, I don't think Nintendo is thinking "damn we need a character who debuted this long ago" but moreso considering the opportunity to represent another longstanding and historically potent series and/or grab the attention of an older demographic. Given the very comfortable balance in FP1 I just feel like there's at least another one of these characters in store (if I had to guess, probably one more pre-2000s character and another post). For the sake of conversation, which characters do you think are in a good spot to fulfill this role, if such a role needs fulfilling?

I want to encourage voices from other people rather than just plug my choices, but I do think Arle fits this niche pretty nicely. I've always considered her possible addition to be "Terry-esque" and I like to believe they'd be willing to take the plunge on another character like that. But I wanna hear what you guys think.

This could apply to hundreds and hundreds of characters so this doesn't really narrow things down all that much, but it's struck me that the only truly frequently discussed / requested character who fits this mold and hasn't been shut down (RIP Hayabusa and Doomguy) is Crash Bandicoot... and sorta Eggman, I guess. Which is odd to me since I feel like the discussion was dominated by older nostalgic characters back in FP1, lmao.

I'd blame a collision of A: Steve's negotiations taking until FP2 (Possibly because Sakurai was just worried about not doing the blockman justice) and the two games that would've been represented in the base game were both for the Switch.

Though, you're right in that FP1 had an even blend of legacy and recency. Two new characters (Joker and Byleth), two old ones (Terry and Banjo), and a slot that represented both eras (Hero). Perhaps we're in for two more legacy characters to round out FP2 as well.

Alternatively, if we're sorting characters based on dates, maybe we'll instead have two for each group. We already have two current gen characters; Meanwhile, Steve is about a decade old now even if we're counting Minecraft's release as 2011, and Sephiroth is most definitely an old character. Perhaps the pattern's recent 2010's, early 2010's/2000's, and 90's/older?

(Yeah, this is most definitely an arbitrary attempt to somehow cram my gut prediction of an LoL rep in Smash in here)

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I'd blame a collision of A: Steve's negotiations taking until FP2 (Possibly because Sakurai was just worried about not doing the blockman justice) and the two games that would've been represented in the base game were both for the Switch.

Though, you're right in that FP1 had an even blend of legacy and recency. Two new characters (Joker and Byleth), two old ones (Terry and Banjo), and a slot that represented both eras (Hero). Perhaps we're in for two more legacy characters to round out FP2 as well.

Alternatively, if we're sorting characters based on dates, maybe we'll instead have two for each group. We already have two current gen characters; Meanwhile, Steve is about a decade old now even if we're counting Minecraft's release as 2011, and Sephiroth is most definitely an old character. Perhaps the pattern's recent 2010's, early 2010's/2000's, and 90's/older?

(Yeah, this is most definitely an arbitrary attempt to somehow cram my gut prediction of an LoL rep in Smash in here)

BRO

REIMU ORIGINATED IN 1996

FINAL TWO ARE LOL AND REIMU CASE CLOSED

 

[Technomage]

Hey guys sorry to butt into the conversation but I figured I'd share something I'm thinking about and it could spark some discussion about what may come next.

Isn't the current lack of older characters in FP2 worth acknowledging? Like, I have no real issue with a focus on more modern characters and games, but I'm thinking back to FP1 where, by this point, we had Joker (2016), Hero (1986 and/or 2017), Banjo & Kazooie (1998) and Terry (1991). I'd say this is a pretty even spread of icons both old and new.

Meanwhile in FP2, Sephiroth is the only character who (formally) debuted over a decade ago (1997). There isn't anything deep to gauge from this, just the thought that perhaps we're due for another character who may break this mold a little further. It's seemingly arbitrary, but I do think it's something we should keep in mind. Perhaps the motto behind FP2 is just very different from FP1, but I still feel like some degree of another 80s-90s legacy character makes sense.

Like, I don't think Nintendo is thinking "damn we need a character who debuted this long ago" but moreso considering the opportunity to represent another longstanding and historically potent series and/or grab the attention of an older demographic. Given the very comfortable balance in FP1 I just feel like there's at least another one of these characters in store (if I had to guess, probably one more pre-2000s character and another post). For the sake of conversation, which characters do you think are in a good spot to fulfill this role, if such a role needs fulfilling?

I want to encourage voices from other people rather than just plug my choices, but I do think Arle fits this niche pretty nicely. I've always considered her possible addition to be "Terry-esque" and I like to believe they'd be willing to take the plunge on another character like that. But I wanna hear what you guys think.

This could apply to hundreds and hundreds of characters so this doesn't really narrow things down all that much, but it's struck me that the only truly frequently discussed / requested character who fits this mold and hasn't been shut down (RIP Hayabusa and Doomguy) is Crash Bandicoot... and sorta Eggman, I guess. Which is odd to me since I feel like the discussion was dominated by older nostalgic characters back in FP1, lmao.

Here are some characters:

Ryu Hayabusa, Bimmy and Jammy Billy and Jimmy, Bill and Lance, Crash Bandicoot, Scorpion, Dr. Eggman, Frogger, Pitfall Harry, the Knight and Ostrich from Joust (wish I knew about those characters' existences when I suggested my topic of rider characters, like, weeks ago), Q*Bert

 

[DarthEnderX]

I know we have been through this before, but who would you like to see as the final two characters in the pass, and who would you like to see if there was more DLC after that somehow?

First two for Pass 2, rest for Pass 3:

 

[SharkLord]

BRO

REIMU ORIGINATED IN 1996

FINAL TWO ARE LOL AND REIMU CASE CLOSED

My other major predictions are Ayumi and Lloyd, an 80's character and a 2000's character. We could swap them out with Reimu or an LoL rep respectively, and it'd still fit in with our admittedly really arbitrary new pattern.

But it doesn't matter either way, because we're getting a Falcom double-deal with Adol and Estelle

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

REIMU ORIGINATED IN 1996

So did Bandana Dee, technically.

 

[JOJONumber691]

Power Pellets only made the Ghosts scared on your screen. Best workaround is to make them the color of the character slot, as well as a PAC-MAN Icon when you grab a Power Pellet. Honestly, I could seriously think about how to best implement every cut stage back into Ultimate in all honesty.

Eh, screw it! Here's the List!:
Planet Zebes: Update visually to be on par with the rest of the Smash 64 Stages.
Sector Z: Do the same as the other N64 Stages, but maybe also implement new Star Fox conversations with the current cast.
Meta Crystal: Actually make it playable first off, then give it the updates that the other N64 Stages got. Maybe if you're feeling extra Fancy that day you could make the Battlefield and Omega Forms Duel Zone and Final Destination 64.
Icicle Mountain: Visual Overhaul, Keep the Speed Consistent, give it a Legal Layout Hazardless, and change the time of day throughout the match.
Mute City: Overhaul the Visuals in their entirety, and then put the Battlefield and Omega Forms above the Track like Mute City SNES. Hazardless gets rid of only the cars.
Mushroom Kingdom (Melee): I have nothing lol. Just keep it the same as in Melee and we'll be good!
Poke Floats: Ask the Pokemon Company for the X/Y Models and change the Theming to be a mix of Poke Floats and Pokemon GO. Essentially, the Stage is the Same, but with a New Aesthetic, but just like Boxing Ring, holding L will allow you to change the background back to the Pink Subspace of Melee. Yeah, I mostly did the theming change just to make the Battlefield and Omega Forms easier for me to come up with lol. Though as a Bonus from the transition to Pokemon Go, it has the visual gimmick of Smashville and Town and City, meaning your Switch's Clock determines the background for the match (unless you hold L). Yeah, most Indepth I'm getting until PAC-MAZE lol.
Flat Zone: Make it the Hazardless Flat Zone X.
Trophy Battle: Make it properly Playable, and Randomize the Trophies, maybe add a couple of others depending on the Series Music playing, with Battlefield and Final Destination. Maybe make it the Smash Wii U Versions? I dunno.
Rumble Falls: Remove the Speed Ups! That and remove the Spikes Hazardless and Update the Graphics substantially!
Flat Zone 2: L Load for Flat Zone X.
Pictochat: Just port it lol.
Rainbow Road: Import the assets from Tour, update them for the Stage’s Layout, and make an Omega and Battlefield. Also ADD THE TOADS!!!!!
PAC-MAZE: Oooh boy! This is going to be very long-winded! So, essentially, PAC-MAZE is like Smash 3DS, but whenever more than one player is using a screen, the scared ghosts match the Player Color, with the indicator being modeled after the PAC-MAN Score Indicator.
Jungle Hijinx: Disable the Hazards during Stage Morph and make the Leaf Platforms Palm Trees.
Pyrosphere: Keep everything the same, but update the Textures.
Woolly World: Update the Textures and add some background characters.
Orbital Gate Assault: For the love of god, REMOVE THE HITBOX ON THE MISSILE'S EXPLODING AND YOU MAKE THIS STAGE 10X BETTER! Also redo the special dialogue that you can get for not choosing Fox or Falco in Smash Wii U.
Miiverse: Make it Smash World and add a drawing feature to the app.
Very long, but don't care this was fun.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

The time of origin for the remaining fighters might just come down to the company involved. Konami and Sega tend to be older, while indies are obviously much newer. Capcom's the biggest wild card in that sense, as there's a great deal of old school IP's (Mega Man, Street Fighter, Ghosts and Goblins), and those that basically emerged within roughly the last 20 years (DMC, Ace Attorney, Monster Hunter).

 

[SharkLord]

The time of origin for the remaining fighters might just come down to the company involved. Konami and Sega tend to be older, while indies are obviously much newer. Capcom's the biggest wild card in that sense, as there's a great deal of old school IP's (Mega Man, Street Fighter, Ghosts and Goblins), and those that basically emerged within roughly the last 20 years (DMC, Ace Attorney, Monster Hunter).

On that note, the 2000's-ish characters kinda rely on how you define "old" or "recent." Generally, what most people think of as "retro" cuts off around the turn of the millennium, but they're also not quite recent. Early 2010's characters like Steve tend to get grouped in with this batch, as by now they're approaching/have already hit 10 years of existence, which isn't that recent either. I'd personally count these characters as it's own separate group; Not that old, but not new anymore, either.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

On that note, the 2000's-ish characters kinda rely on how you define "old" or "recent." Generally, what most people think of as "retro" cuts off around the turn of the millennium, but they're also not quite recent. Early 2010's characters like Steve tend to get grouped in with this batch, as by now they're approaching/have already hit 10 years of existence, which isn't that recent either. I'd personally count these characters as it's own separate group; Not that old, but not new anymore, either.

Part of that disconnect is that progress/leaps in gaming just don't seem as dramatic anymore and thus a lot of stuff that is old, doesn't quite feel as old. Games from 2020 look more impressive than ones in 2010 sure, but the shift is like the difference in video quality.

By contrast, gaming in the 90s began with Mega Man 3 & ended with Shenmue. Resident Evil in 1996 screams 5th generation polygonal 3D, while Resident Evil remake a mere six years after that has barely aged even now. Debuting 20 years before Melee meant Donkey Kong and Mario. Debuting 20 years before Ultimate second Fighter's Pass means Tidus, Master Chief, and Dante.

 

[SKX31]

On that note, the 2000's-ish characters kinda rely on how you define "old" or "recent." Generally, what most people think of as "retro" cuts off around the turn of the millennium, but they're also not quite recent. Early 2010's characters like Steve tend to get grouped in with this batch, as by now they're approaching/have already hit 10 years of existence, which isn't that recent either. I'd personally count these characters as it's own separate group; Not that old, but not new anymore, either.

Part of that disconnect is that progress/leaps in gaming just don't seem as dramatic anymore and thus a lot of stuff that is old, doesn't quite feel as old. Games from 2020 look more impressive than ones in 2010 sure, but the shift is like the difference in video quality.

By contrast, gaming in the 90s began with Mega Man 3 & ended with Shenmue. Resident Evil in 1996 screams 5th generation polygonal 3D, while Resident Evil remake a mere six years after that has barely aged even now. Debuting 20 years before Melee meant Donkey Kong and Mario. Debuting 20 years before Ultimate second Fighter's Pass means Tidus, Master Chief, and Dante.

That and the retro term has been defined as 8 / 16 bit partly due to the "retro revival" that began in 2008. Now I personally would consider early 2000s retro precisely because video games as an industry has moved on past a lot of its conventions: the second analog stick is standard nowadays for camera control in 3D, which was not neccessarily the case back then as an example. But it's understandable since video games have incremented on the early sixth gen as far as graphics go.

Still, it's difficult to say what the next "obvious revolution" will be: VR / AR is a candidate, but it's hindered by cost currently, relative lack of "must-have games" (with Half Life Alyx a possible candidate, but I can't think of much else) and VR's been in that vague area of "talked about as the FUTURE, but never really became mainstream" for quite a while. Unless of course video games start to rely on nanomachines / electronic spores:

 

[SNEKeater]

At this point I'm not feeling Dante is going to make it.
Though I guess I could say the same for a lot of characters. After the Mii Costumes from Capcom that came with Pyra and Mythra, I don't think Capcom is 100% out but they're certainly less likely in my eyes.

Plus, even if it's kinda random and not a rule, I'd be kinda surprised if Dante got in and as CP10. That would mean 3 sword users in a row, and while Nintendo would certainly not care about that, I'm also guessing they would probably spread the fighters a bit more. So following that, Dante would have to be CP11, and pretty much everyone agrees that the last character will probably be a "low profile" character, and if we assume that to be true, well, I don't think it's looking good for him.

I was more optimistic about Dante before Pyra and Mythra but now, not so much. Same goes for other Capcom characters, of course.

 

[jadetheseer]

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

While there’s a lot of characters I’d love to see, Dante is my most wanted and I’d be so, so happy if he gets in. To me, he’s just the perfect character to be in Smash Bros and I still think there’s a small but un-ignorable chance for him!

The biggest thing that still makes me think he has a chance even if it’s a little silly is when Hideki Kamiya was asked about him being in Smash, he said Devil May Cry would have to be on a Nintendo console first. Then only about a month later, DMC1 gets put on the Switch followed by 2 and 3. It just seemed very tongue-in-cheek to me but obviously that’s very biased and there’s no real evidence for or against him at this point. I still maintain that the CAPCOM Mii costumes don’t rule him out especially when his costumes could just be 2-3 DMC characters, Viewtiful Joe, and Jeanne or another Kamiya-created character.

 

[Will]

I don't think Nintendo's trying to find a balance of old and new content. Not sure if it even has a pattern that's discernable outside of some few obvious Switch era shillings. All we know is that one of those executives has to be Sephiroth's #1 fangirl.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

That and the retro term has been defined as 8 / 16 bit partly due to the "retro revival" that began in 2008. Now I personally would consider early 2000s retro precisely because video games as an industry has moved on past a lot of its conventions: the second analog stick is standard nowadays for camera control in 3D, which was not neccessarily the case back then as an example. But it's understandable since video games have incremented on the early sixth gen as far as graphics go.

Still, it's difficult to say what the next "obvious revolution" will be: VR / AR is a candidate, but it's hindered by cost currently, relative lack of "must-have games" (with Half Life Alyx a possible candidate, but I can't think of much else) and VR's been in that vague area of "talked about as the FUTURE, but never really became mainstream" for quite a while. Unless of course video games start to rely on nanomachines / electronic spores:

Every day I wonder if I hallucinated that video, then it turns out I didn’t

was that some sort of April fools joke or something

 

[Will]

That and the retro term has been defined as 8 / 16 bit partly due to the "retro revival" that began in 2008. Now I personally would consider early 2000s retro precisely because video games as an industry has moved on past a lot of its conventions: the second analog stick is standard nowadays for camera control in 3D, which was not neccessarily the case back then as an example. But it's understandable since video games have incremented on the early sixth gen as far as graphics go.

Still, it's difficult to say what the next "obvious revolution" will be: VR / AR is a candidate, but it's hindered by cost currently, relative lack of "must-have games" (with Half Life Alyx a possible candidate, but I can't think of much else) and VR's been in that vague area of "talked about as the FUTURE, but never really became mainstream" for quite a while. Unless of course video games start to rely on nanomachines / electronic spores:

If the PS9 was in 2078, and we just now got the PS5 in 2020, what causes them to be released in over twice the timespan as the last 5?

I bet we got a dystopian future where video games were banned for like 20 years.

 

[SharkLord]

If the PS9 was in 2078, and we just now got the PS5 in 2020, what causes them to be released in over twice the timespan as the last 5?

I bet we got a dystopian future where video games were banned for like 20 years.

Either that, or console generations just get dragged out longer and longer as the technological jumps continue to shrink, like we were just talking about a couple posts ago.

 

[SKX31]

I don't think Nintendo's trying to find a balance of old and new content. Not sure if it even has a pattern that's discernable outside of some few obvious Switch era shillings. All we know is that one of those executives has to be Sephiroth's #1 fangirl.

I mean, who could resist this stare?

Every day I wonder if I hallucinated that video, then it turns out I didn’t

was that some sort of April fools joke or something

It's not an April Fools joke - it was used to market the PS2 during the early 2000s- although sources on this ad are extremely scant. The best I could find was an Escapist article, although the PS9 ad also surfaced when Sony decided to trademark PS6 to PS10 in 2019.

If the PS9 was in 2078, and we just now got the PS5 in 2020, what causes them to be released in over twice the timespan as the last 5?

I bet we got a dystopian future where video games were banned for like 20 years.

Either that, or console generations just get dragged out longer and longer as the technological jumps continue to shrink, like we were just talking about a couple posts ago.

Then again, it would seem like quite a leap for the PS9 to be this water pokeball that has electronic spores.

Wait a sec, apparently said spores have a mind control system. Somehow that came after the ban.

 

[Will]

Either that, or console generations just get dragged out longer and longer as the technological jumps continue to shrink, like we were just talking about a couple posts ago.

At this point they'll just be glorified PCs. Except Nintendo, they're going make a gimmick out of some random feature.

 

[PSIGuy]

I don't think Nintendo's trying to find a balance of old and new content.

I do think they are trying to improve the balance - the balance of their bank account, that is

 

[GalacticPetey]

On this day in 1989, the first episode of Dragon Ball Z premiered. pic.twitter.com/yoUKP0nwle

— Toei Animation (@ToeiAnimation) April 26, 2021

Happy 32nd birthday to the best Smash request

Not to be pedantic but Goku debuted in Dragon Ball before DBZ and to be even more pedantic the manga would have debuted even before that in 1984. Though the manga makes no distinction between "Dragon Ball" and "Dragon Ball Z", that's an anime thing. Shame that the "Z" portion of the story overshadows everything else since the pre-Z stuff is better.

In the interest of getting back on topic though, I have no idea what to expect for these last two characters. My last few predictions post Sephiroth were Rex/Pyra, Hayabusa, and Chun-Li. Well I was half right with Rex/Pyra, but the Hayabusa interviews plus the capcom costumes with Pyra makes me doubt both of those. I'm not confident in a Namco character given the costumes and I honestly don't expect heavy hitters from these last two slots. My mind is leaning towards minor third party and a first party.

I think Sol Badguy or Bill Rizer for that first slot and then either someone like Chorus Kids or Waluigi for the last one. Gen 8 Pokemon doesn't feel likely and as much as I want Dixie or Bandana Dee, I just don't see Nintendo going for them.

 

[7NATOR]

Obviously going with the most realistic combo of Master Chief and Dota 2 representative baybee.

Nah, but I'd love to see those two as the final two, with KOS-MOS as a third choice. My only concern is if the final two characters have even jankier comeback mechanics than Arsene / OWA* (or if the final two are truly busted) but I'm feeling decently confident that Sakurai and co won't go there.

As for another pass, I'm pretty unsure of who else I'd include alongside say KOS-MOS. Dante or Amaterasu, Ring Fit or Style Savvy, LoL champion, Kratos / Lara Croft as well as a Blizzard character are pretty high up there, and would probably be included in my own designed Pass.

*I was listening to the most recent Tweek Talks podcast, where they discussed comeback mechanics:

They focused on 's Arsene and 's One Wing in this episode, but 's Waft and 's GO were also talked about. Also included is 's Aura (very small mention).

So to drive some more discussion:

Are you personally okay with how comeback mechanics have been handled in Smash Bros? Any particular favorites / least favorites?

And, could one of your most wanted come with one?

For me, I'm pretty ambivalent on comeback mechanics. Most of them have counterplay to them (the exceptions being Waft and practically OWA getting online) and there are only a few aspects that can be overbearing when playing. Waft and GO moves require the user to hit them - so the counterplay becomes avoiding - which is fair - while Lucario (and to a lesser extent Joker / Sephiroth) might wind up losing stocks not long after and thus not get to do much with the comeback mechanics. On the other hand, the comeback mechanics can hit extremely hard like a gutpunch: the podcast focused on OWA since the massive 1.3X damage boost it brings allows Sephiroth's Smash attacks to hit harder than 's and the triple jump is a bonkers tool that overshadows 's and 's own triple jumps). Sephiroth can also be difficult to edgeguard thanks to his jumps, wall-cling and Octaslash covering the ledge, which makes it pretty frustrating to get rid of OWA (KOing him) sometimes.

So in the future... I honestly want to see them toned down a tad, but it isn't a bad idea in theory to have them.

As for my most wanted... Dante has Devil Trigger, which could be a comeback mechanic by virtue of slightly increased damage output, temporary flight, slight knockback resistance increase and maybe small but somewhat noticeable healing factor. It would be tricky to balance, but it's possible IMHO.

(Edit: Damnit, forgot 's KO Punch. That to me feels like a similar way to Terry's GO, except it's oftentimes once per stock for way more reward on hit.)

I will say that whether the Comeback mechanic is overtuned or not depends not only on the strength of the mechanic itself, but also the character it's attached to

as an example, I think One Winged Angel is fine, and it Helps showcases how Sephiroth is a Boss Character (Personally I think it works weird in Free for alls since You'll lose Wing when there be other opponents ahead, or in 1v1's if you're down like 2 stocks and even out the stocks, though I understand it's for balancing reasons). The Mode is also balanced with Sephiroth also, but putting a mechanic like One Winged on someone like Pikachu would be a bit much

I think Arsene might be a bit overtuned to be honest, and a big part of the reason is that Joker himself is already very good. I think if you couldn't get meter except when you did Down B (so No meter from getting hit or waiting, and no 20% meter after you die), it would be more balanced since Joker would have to use Down B to intercept moves if he wants Arsene, and it also forces both Joker and the Opponent not to be too predictable with their Approaches

The only Mechanic I would really overhaul is Lucario's Aura. I would just make Lucario closer to Goku (since we not gonna be getting him for long time at least

-Buff Lucario's moveset as a whole, to be Stronger, Faster, etc
-Don't make gettig Aura dependent on taking Damage. Instead you have to Power up your Aura by Powering up DBZ Style, which will Increase all your stats, Give every attack better and bigger hitboxes, etc
-You Lose Aura overtime, but you retain it longer by Interacting with opponents, whether you're hitting shield, the opponents themselves, getting hit, etc. Doing nothing will make you lose Aura super fast (to Discourage camping), and Charging does

Otherwise I think the other Comeback mechanics are fine and are pretty fun


As for Other potential Smash characters that could have some Comeback mechanics

-I think Devil Trigger would actually be the opposite of a Comeback mechanic. Perhaps the better you do, the more Devil Runes you get and also perhaps the longer Devil Trigger lasts, perhaps lasting infinitely as long as you can keep the Style meter to a S or Higher level (Okay maybe not that last part). Devil Trigger would boost all stats, allow Flight, and also unlock Exclusive moves for Dante and certain extensions of base moves

-For Shadow, I think Chaos Boost would be unique in that you can activate the mode at anytime (even at the start of the match) which is different from the other Comeback mechanics that usually need to be built up. It would boost all Stats and all Chaos powered moves. The downside would be that you take an Increased amount of Damage, Knockback, and hitstun if you get hit, you will take Damage overtime after a Certain amount of time, and the only way to Exit out of the mode is to Do Chaos Blast, which would be a really Strong move, but have High amounts of Endlag afterwards

Hey guys sorry to butt into the conversation but I figured I'd share something I'm thinking about and it could spark some discussion about what may come next.

Isn't the current lack of older characters in FP2 worth acknowledging? Like, I have no real issue with a focus on more modern characters and games, but I'm thinking back to FP1 where, by this point, we had Joker (2016), Hero (1986 and/or 2017), Banjo & Kazooie (1998) and Terry (1991). I'd say this is a pretty even spread of icons both old and new.

Meanwhile in FP2, Sephiroth is the only character who (formally) debuted over a decade ago (1997). There isn't anything deep to gauge from this, just the thought that perhaps we're due for another character who may break this mold a little further. It's seemingly arbitrary, but I do think it's something we should keep in mind. Perhaps the motto behind FP2 is just very different from FP1, but I still feel like some degree of another 80s-90s legacy character makes sense.

Like, I don't think Nintendo is thinking "damn we need a character who debuted this long ago" but moreso considering the opportunity to represent another longstanding and historically potent series and/or grab the attention of an older demographic. Given the very comfortable balance in FP1 I just feel like there's at least another one of these characters in store (if I had to guess, probably one more pre-2000s character and another post). For the sake of conversation, which characters do you think are in a good spot to fulfill this role, if such a role needs fulfilling?

I want to encourage voices from other people rather than just plug my choices, but I do think Arle fits this niche pretty nicely. I've always considered her possible addition to be "Terry-esque" and I like to believe they'd be willing to take the plunge on another character like that. But I wanna hear what you guys think.

This could apply to hundreds and hundreds of characters so this doesn't really narrow things down all that much, but it's struck me that the only truly frequently discussed / requested character who fits this mold and hasn't been shut down (RIP Hayabusa and Doomguy) is Crash Bandicoot... and sorta Eggman, I guess. Which is odd to me since I feel like the discussion was dominated by older nostalgic characters back in FP1, lmao.

I will say that I do think we will get another character that debuted before 2010's

However I actually do think that the Ingame evidence is telling us that we will actually get another 2010's character, through the tourneys. It's why I'm paying attention this week because it's tourney week. If Pyra/Mythra are the last 2010's character, now would be the perfect time to have the 2010's tourney

Just for curiosity: who's here hyped/hoping for a Dante reveal?

You didn't mention it, but I'll mention it here. Dante would actually Explain the Bonus Fighter thing slot, if it was Both Dante/Vergil. Vergil is Iconic to the DMC Series, and is like Shadow the Hedgehog if he wasn't controversial, so Adding both would be legendary. I like Vergil more between the Dante/Vergil, but Dante would also be cool

Unfortunately, I don't think Dante is getting into Ultimate, nor have I really thought so for awhile now. I did think he could be a mii costume, but I'm not even betting on that one anymore

I do have another pair of characters in mind that I might be predicting. It's not really an exciting addition for me, and it probably won't be for many of you as well, but I think the evidence might be in favor of those characters

 

[cothero]

You didn't mention it, but I'll mention it here. Dante would actually Explain the Bonus Fighter thing slot, if it was Both Dante/Vergil. Vergil is Iconic to the DMC Series, and is like Shadow the Hedgehog if he wasn't controversial, so Adding both would be legendary. I like Vergil more between the Dante/Vergil, but Dante would also be cool

Unfortunately, I don't think Dante is getting into Ultimate, nor have I really thought so for awhile now. I did think he could be a mii costume, but I'm not even betting on that one anymore

I do have another pair of characters in mind that I might be predicting. It's not really an exciting addition for me, and it probably won't be for many of you as well, but I think the evidence might be in favor of those characters

The thing is, from all Capcom franchises, the two that would make more sense to be added in smash due to great success would be Resident Evil and Monster Hunter. Now that those two look quite deconfirmed from all spirit/mii costumes we got, Dante would be the most obvious addition, but i'm not that optimistic too.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Base game original characters also had a good split between old and new:

Old: Ridley (1986), Simon (1987) and King K Room (1994)

New: Isabelle (2012), Inklings (2015) and Incineroar (2016)

 

[Perkilator]

How good is my fantasy roster‘s split between old and new?

 

[cashregister9]

1992年のきょう『星のカービィ』(Kirby's Dream Land)発売!!
ゲーム初心者に向けて特化した､私のデビュー作です｡
知らなかったかもしれないけど､カービィ考えたの私なんですよ…｡
なんで3人になるのかって?
そりゃあその方が楽しいからですよ｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/vKZQBxOoCm

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 27, 2021

Kirby Dream Land Anniversary

 

[Mushroomguy12]

1992年のきょう『星のカービィ』(Kirby's Dream Land)発売!!
ゲーム初心者に向けて特化した､私のデビュー作です｡
知らなかったかもしれないけど､カービィ考えたの私なんですよ…｡
なんで3人になるのかって?
そりゃあその方が楽しいからですよ｡#スマブラSP pic.twitter.com/vKZQBxOoCm

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 27, 2021

Kirby Dream Land Anniversary

"Kirby's Dream Land" released today in 1992 !! This is my debut work, specialized for game beginners. You may not have known it, but I was thinking of Kirby ... Why are you three? That's because it's more fun. #Smash Bros SP


Link to the Development story. (The tweet's text in Google Translate: "Kirby development secret story of the first star:" )

初代星のカービィ開発秘話 :https://t.co/sk6FfjCPiA

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) April 27, 2021