Official DLC Speculation Discussion Volume II

[RiuBert]

Yeah, great point. The only place that screwed up was the Australian and/or New Zeland site so this potential FP1+FP2 bonus Mii Costume could've just been ordered incorrectly in one region.

That ain't the case. If you change the "AU" or "NZ" values on the URL by "ES" for example (which is where I am from) you get redirected to their official Nintendo ES websites. By changing the region value on the Zelda Mii Custome's URL you still get the code of *74, so it is not Oceania only.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

I think a big question is:

If this is a unique character, how will they be handed out?


If they're 3rd party, no way in hell they're given for free(For a limited time). If they're 3rd party, they'd almost 100% be paid-for separately from FP2.

If they're 1st party, I absolutely could see a Piranha Plant scenario play out again(Free, for a limited time).

If its first party, it may be free for 2 weeks for those who purchased both FP1 and 2.

 

[cashregister9]

I think a big question is:

If this is a unique character, how will they be handed out?


If they're 3rd party, no way in hell they're given for free(For a limited time). If they're 3rd party, they'd almost 100% be paid-for separately from FP2.

If they're 1st party, I absolutely could see a Piranha Plant scenario play out again(Free, for a limited time).

If they are free for a limited time, I would say we would get an Assist promotion or a "weird" 1st party character

If they are payed only, I can see a third party but it would have to be a pretty major third party.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I think a big question is:

If this is a unique character, how will they be handed out?


If they're 3rd party, no way in hell they're given for free(For a limited time). If they're 3rd party, they'd almost 100% be paid-for separately from FP2.

If they're 1st party, I absolutely could see a Piranha Plant scenario play out again(Free, for a limited time).

I think the same has to be asked about echo fighters, tbh. Third parties have licensing costs, and if the echo was copying a DLC character (I don't think it would) then there have to be considerations about the value of copies vs originals and whether that would change depending on previous purchases.

 

[Icedragonadam]

For 3rd party I can see:

1. Individual paid DLC character
2. A second unique character in the same series as CP11 coming with them.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Hmmm, after reading the URL orders, and taking into account that adding one more unique fighter would mess up the release schedule and have FP2 NOT finish before 2022, I deduce that the potential CP 12 would most likely be an echo of CP 11, which would not take even half as long as a unique character would. As for who the character might be, we have a clue where we also contemplate who CP 11 might be. So, without further ado, here are some possible combinations of a unique fighter and its echo:

Crash and Coco Nevermind, someone debunked that possibility
Scorpion and Sub-Zero
Nightmare and Siegfried
Freddy and Springtrap
Zacian and Zamazenta
Sol Badguy and Order Sol
Sora and either Roxas or Ventus
Spyro and Cynder
KOS-MOS and T-elos

Also, here are some combinations that are based on the assumption that Pythra's Mii costume sets do NOT deconfirm more Capcom characters:
Dante and Virgil
Morrigan and Lilith

Assuming Heihach's Mii costume doesn't deconfirm other Tekken chars, there's also Jin and Kazuya.

I’ll throw Master Chief & The Arbiter into this too. You play as The Arbiter in Halo 2 & 3, he controls identically to Chief. He’s a big fan favorite in the Halo community, so he’d be a pretty popular echo if they chose him.

 

[RGFS]

I think a big question is:

If this is a unique character, how will they be handed out?


If they're 3rd party, no way in hell they're given for free(For a limited time). If they're 3rd party, they'd almost 100% be paid-for separately from FP2.

If they're 1st party, I absolutely could see a Piranha Plant scenario play out again(Free, for a limited time).

I'm pretty confident there's no way it'll be a third party. A bonus pick like this feels very in-house. If it was a third party, they'd probably negotiate for the bells and whistles with a stage, spirits, and music.

If this was gonna be on the level of what we see in the Challenger Packs, why not add it to the Second Pass and charge more for seven characters instead of six? It has to be something simpler on Nintendo's side.

This fighter will probably free for a limited time if you own both Fighter Passes.

I think the same has to be asked about echo fighters, tbh. Third parties have licensing costs, and if the echo was copying a DLC character (I don't think it would) then there have to be considerations about the value of copies vs originals and whether that would change depending on previous purchases.

If we get an echo for a Fighter Pass character, it would likely already come with the specific Challenger Pack. If this last spot is for echoes rather than a fighter, it'd likely be more than one in a bundle.

That licensing thing got me thinking. How big of a deal would the licensing cost really be if Nintendo still gets away with selling Mii Costumes of 3rd party characters for such a cheap price? I bet that unless the company is particularly huge and doesn't care about Smash, a deal to appear in Smash is more of a "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." type situation. They at least split the profits in Nintendo's favor since they do all the work but Nintendo also may sometimes have to pay a small premium in the worst-case scenarios. The Smash deal ends up meaning more in the long run for both companies as a sort of relationship strengthened for other future deals.

 

[SharkLord]

At least for the Japanesse Site, Unlike the New Zealand site (I think it's new zealand, I'm unsure), the ordering is very weird

The Fighters, Mii Costumes, and Bonus content (Like Plant and Rex Mii) all have different numberings from each other

Here's joker's and Hero's

【ファイター】ジョーカー＋メメントスステージ セット

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【ファイター】ジョーカー＋メメントスステージ セット」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

【ファイター】勇者＋天空の祭壇ステージ セット

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【ファイター】勇者＋天空の祭壇ステージ セット」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

Here's Tails and Knuckles, and then Nakoruru and Iori (sets of Mii Costumes have different numbering groups it seems

【コスチューム】テイルスのぼうし＋ふく

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【コスチューム】テイルスのぼうし＋ふく」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

【コスチューム】ナックルズのぼうし＋ふく

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【コスチューム】ナックルズのぼうし＋ふく」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

【コスチューム】ナコルルのぼうし＋ふく

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【コスチューム】ナコルルのぼうし＋ふく」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

【コスチューム】八神庵のぼうし＋ふく

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【コスチューム】八神庵のぼうし＋ふく」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

and then here's Plant and Rex Mii

【ファイター】パックンフラワー

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「【ファイター】パックンフラワー」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

購入特典 【コスチューム】レックス

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「購入特典 【コスチューム】レックス」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

Here's the Fighter Pass 1 bundle itself

大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL ファイターパス

任天堂の公式オンラインストア。「大乱闘スマッシュブラザーズ SPECIAL ファイターパス」の販売ページ。マイニンテンドーストアではNintendo Switch（ニンテンドースイッチ）やゲームソフト、ストア限定、オリジナルの商品を販売しています。

store-jp.nintendo.com

Fighter Pass 2 I believe operates the same, but the numbering I.D differ from Fighter Pass 1

So to be honest, I'm not sure if the Japanesse site having differing ordering is a debunk, especially since we know the Id link that points to some bonus content will be used in the future/

So I used this to check the urls for the Japanese site, and I can confirm there isn't any gap between CP11 and the Ancient Armor Mii. Beginning to think it was just a goof-up and there is no bonus.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Hmmm, after reading the URL orders, and taking into account that adding one more unique fighter would mess up the release schedule and have FP2 NOT finish before 2022, I deduce that the potential CP 12 would most likely be an echo of CP 11, which would not take even half as long as a unique character would. As for who the character might be, we have a clue where we also contemplate who CP 11 might be. So, without further ado, here are some possible combinations of a unique fighter and its echo:

Crash and Coco Nevermind, someone debunked that possibility
Scorpion and Sub-Zero
Nightmare and Siegfried
Freddy and Springtrap
Zacian and Zamazenta
Sol Badguy and Order Sol
Sora and either Roxas or Ventus
Spyro and Cynder
KOS-MOS and T-elos

Also, here are some combinations that are based on the assumption that Pythra's Mii costume sets do NOT deconfirm more Capcom characters:
Dante and Virgil
Morrigan and Lilith

Assuming Heihach's Mii costume doesn't deconfirm other Tekken chars, there's also Jin and Kazuya.

Who says the echo has to be OF that fighter? Perhaps it's just "an echo", right?

The one and only example of that I can think of... a Sonic character, with a bonus Metal Sonic as an echo of the already existing Sonic.


Like... that's the "gimmick" of Fighter Pack 10: They come with a Sonic echo so it's LIKE you're getting two in one go!

Amy and Metal Sonic. Amy doesn't have MUCH of a gimmick HERSELF, but the bonus Metal Sonic is not only a Sonic CD throwback, but is also an added incentive to let Amy chase Sonic into your copy of the game!

Eggman and Metal Sonic: Eggman and his creation

Shadow and Metal Sonic: The "Sonic Rivals" (and two Legacy XP characters if you wanna touch that subject)

Point is, Metal isn't an echo of the DLC fighter... but he is a super cool echo of Sonic, adding more MANIA to Sonic. Plus a FINE reason to finally add "What I'm Made Of" and correct that crime of NOT having it.




"You might know everything I'm going to do, but that's not going to help you because I know everything YOU'RE going to do! STRRRRRRRRRANGE, isn't it? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!"

 

[RGFS]

So I used this to check the urls for the Japanese site, and I can confirm there isn't any gap between CP11 and the Ancient Armor Mii. Beginning to think it was just a goof-up and there is no bonus.

While that may completely be true, my theory is that if something does happen, the Japanese version of the site will label it as something happening after the Link Ancient Armor Mii Costume. Which makes me still think it'll lead to some sort of thing. Most likely a new Mii Costume for those that bought FP1 and FP2

Maybe the Japanese site is just smarter about covering their tracks? There seems to be something behind there considering when you try to look up the mysterious gap, it isn't a 404. Remember, we only knew of SNK from Nintendo UK, meanwhile, no other Nintendo region goofed up on the SNK leak.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

While that may completely be true, my theory is that if something does happen, the Japanese version of the site will label it as something happening after the Link Ancient Armor Mii Costume. Which makes me still think it'll lead to some sort of thing. Most likely a new Mii Costume for those that bought FP1 and FP2

Maybe the Japanese site is just smarter about covering their tracks? There seems to be something behind there considering when you try to look up the mysterious gap, it isn't a 404. Remember, we only knew of SNK from Nintendo UK, meanwhile, no other Nintendo region goofed up on the SNK leak.

It also might be a placeholder in case something happened that the website people aren't privy to. Precautions about unknown information should be more common the further away from Nintendo's higher-ups and from the Smash team things go. I doubt the website managers know what's coming that far ahead of time.

 

[TheCJBrine]

Personally I think an Undertale character is still possible, but I guess the chance is slim unless the deal was made before FP2 was greenlit around E3 2019. I think Toby Fox was in Japan before then, though...idk if Nintendo would go back to him or not...man I just want Sans & Papyrus or Frisk & Chara

I at least think another Sonic character is possible, since the mii costumes definitely came before FP2 was greenlit if Imran Khan is correct about it being greenlit around E3 2019.

As for the bonus fighter/whatever evidence, here are my bets:

• Metal Mario, maybe with Meta Crystal stage (Metal Mario would look different than just Mario with the metal box, having a different shiny gray texture matching his Mario Kart appearance or his render from that series; would have different stats and some different moves)
• Old stages pack (pls Meta Crystal and Poké Floats)
• Mii costumes
• Bonus echo fighter(s)
• Waluigi
• Toad
• Pokémon
• Primid
• Sandbag
• Or, of course, we lose, we get nothing, good day sirs and mesdames

man I can’t believe I forgot our Great King Porky Minch.

I’m gonna be on the Porky or Waluigi train for the rest of this ride, until it inevitably ends up being nothing and I get disappointed. It’ll be a fun ride though; let’s go, Porky and Waluigi!

maybe Ninten, Toad, Metal Mario, or Smash-original too??? Skull Kid??? SANS & PAPYRUS OR FRISK/CHARA?!?!?! (oh wait probably can’t be Undertale though because the bonus would likely be like Piranha Plant, only a character...)

 

[SKX31]

Over 200,000,000 copies of Minecraft have been sold, so it's safe to say no matter what, Steve's inclusion got plenty of new eyes on the Super Smash Bros. series.

That's wrong, actually. It's mobile, followed closely by consoles. PC is actually the least popular platform in several regions.

Not to mention Bedrock Edition was the best selling game on the EShop for a week or two when it came out. There's was definitely a lot of overlap already by the time Steve came out. It can only count as a new audience if the only factor you're considering is the sheer size of it, and not the connection between the Minecraft fanbase and Nintendo.

Which is my point, really. Most DLC caracters so far already had a place to stand among Nintendo fans.

Said data does not include Minecraft's official Chinese version (which their partner NetEase handles) since it's F2P. Zhuge noted that there are 400 million accounts there. While the number of active users is obviously lower than 400 million... it still says a lot. Even if you cut that to a 1/10 you'd still have an additional 40 million. And likewise, I'd assume that mobile is the more popular platform of choice between the two due to ease of access.

While I haven't seen console ports officially released there, I wouldn't be surprised if a fraction of those who have imported international Switches / PlayStations / Xboxes (10 million in total, not a huge number but noticeable) there have paid the $20 for the international version. Partly since there's a segment of the gaming population which has generally grown to intensely distrust the official stuff. It's not a huge number in the end, but worth noting.

So I used this to check the urls for the Japanese site, and I can confirm there isn't any gap between CP11 and the Ancient Armor Mii. Beginning to think it was just a goof-up and there is no bonus.

Which honestly wouldn't surprise me at the end of the day. Changing the project plan for FP2 to include a bonus would be something of a tall order from a planning perspective, not least due to the knock-on effects. It's not entirely impossible to include a bonus at the end of the day, but it would have to be planned and executed with confidence that they can actually create said bonus.

 

[3BitSaurus]

So I used this to check the urls for the Japanese site, and I can confirm there isn't any gap between CP11 and the Ancient Armor Mii. Beginning to think it was just a goof-up and there is no bonus.

Quick question: did you reach the page by navigating the site itself or did you test using the URL in the Reddit post?

I'm asking because the page I reached by navigation alone has a completely different number than the one in the response to the Reddit post. Wonder what's up with that.

Said data does not include Minecraft's official Chinese version (which their partner NetEase handles) since it's F2P. Zhuge noted that there are 400 million accounts there. While the number of active users is obviously lower than 400 million... it still says a lot. Even if you cut that to a 1/10 you'd still have an additional 40 million. And likewise, I'd assume that mobile is the more popular platform of choice between the two due to ease of access.

While I haven't seen console ports officially released there, I wouldn't be surprised if a fraction of those who have imported international Switches / PlayStations / Xboxes (10 million in total, not a huge number but noticeable) there have paid the $20 for the international version. Partly since there's a segment of the gaming population which has generally grown to intensely distrust the official stuff. It's not a huge number in the end, but worth noting.

Huh, interesting. Though my point was more that you can't really call Minecraft a "new audience" if Nintendo had already been tapping into it a whole year prior to Steve's Challenger Pack.

Sure, it's a fraction of the full numbers (and we aren't even counting how many people own more than one version), but it's still nothing to scoff at.

 

[ahemtoday]

Personally, I've never really gotten Metal Sonic as an echo compared to Shadow. I mean, if anything, I think Metal Sonic is a less natural fit. I don't think I've ever seen the guy do a spin attack.

 

[SharkLord]

Quick question: did you reach the page by navigating the site itself or did you test using the URL in the Reddit post?

I'm asking because the page I reached by navigation alone has a completely different number than the one in the response to the Reddit post. Wonder what's up with that.

Just used the site. 7NATOR said the numbering for different stuff was completely different for the Japanese site, so I just found Pyra and Sephiroth's packs and worked up from there.

EDIT: Tried with the FP1 packs, and after you go over Byleth it sends you to, uh...
Deluxe Edition特典パック | My Nintendo Store（マイニンテンドーストア）
...Yeah.

Also, if you try to go back from Min Min there just isn't anything.

 

[UltimateCyborgOverlord]

Personally, I've never really gotten Metal Sonic as an echo compared to Shadow. I mean, if anything, I think Metal Sonic is a less natural fit. I don't think I've ever seen the guy do a spin attack.

Well with SHADOW, I am firmly in team "Yes, he COULD be an echo, but with the Chaos powers and his general edgier attitude, he's got enough to make him a completely different fighter, even if by "different" I mean he's LIKE Sonic in the same way Wolf is LIKE Fox. Clearly inspired by but different in enough ways."

The thing with Metal Sonic is that we haven't really seen him do a TON that Sonic doesn't already do without having to transform into a big Metal Madness/Overlord dragon or something. Other than the "Black Shield" in multiplayer Sonic Adventure 2... he really is very much like Sonic. He goes fast, does Homing attacks, insists that he's the SUPERIOR Sonic. He could PROBABLY do a Spin-Dash or "might as well be Spin-Dash" if they wanted him to.

Wouldn't be any weirder than Daisy having the Toad move even though she has very little to no direct association with Toads.

 

[Louie G.]

Personally, I've never really gotten Metal Sonic as an echo compared to Shadow. I mean, if anything, I think Metal Sonic is a less natural fit. I don't think I've ever seen the guy do a spin attack.

I think Metal Sonic has plenty of potential to be unique, but for what it's worth I think having him mirror Sonic makes plenty of sense. That's kinda the original intent behind the character, after all. Similarly I don't even think Shadow would work too well as an echo, but is it possible and does it make enough sense? Yeah of course. Metal Sonic was Shadow before Shadow was Shadow, really.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Just used the site. 7NATOR said the numbering for different stuff was completely different for the Japanese site, so I just found Pyra and Sephiroth's packs and worked up from there.

EDIT: Tried with the FP1 packs, and after you go over Byleth it sends you to, uh...
Deluxe Edition特典パック | My Nintendo Store（マイニンテンドーストア）
...Yeah.

Also, if you try to go back from Min Min there just isn't anything.

Well, that's odd. I posted the URLs I found a page ago and they were completely different. Trying to go up from Min Min or down from Pyra and Mythra resulted in an error, as if the packs were in a completely different order.

 

[Ivander]

Marx’s stage is based on the area Kirby originally fought him on I believe, just recreated to be more realistic as a fighting spot instead of a trippy planet that keeps moving underneath your feet. So, I guess just a more “realistic”-looking version of the planet.

I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm positive that if this were the place you fought Marx in Super Star, Sakurai would've had the texture to that of the original, with the purple ground and the stars on the ground, even if they didn't move. Sakurai is all about those details, especially when it comes to his games. Marx's stage in Smash Ultimate looks like they are on the moon with a starry sky background and a bit of a sunset.

 

[Perkilator]

I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm positive that if this were the place you fought Marx in Super Star, Sakurai would've had the texture to that of the original, with the purple ground and the stars on the ground, even if they didn't move. Sakurai is all about those details, especially when it comes to his games. Marx's stage in Smash Ultimate looks like they are on the moon with a starry sky background and a bit of a sunset.

I mean…the arena in Ultimate kinda resembles the arena in Super Star. It’s may not be 1:1, but it’s not exactly that far off.

 

[SharkLord]

I think Metal Sonic has plenty of potential to be unique, but for what it's worth I think having him mirror Sonic makes plenty of sense. That's kinda the original intent behind the character, after all. Similarly I don't even think Shadow would work too well as an echo, but is it possible and does it make enough sense? Yeah of course. Metal Sonic was Shadow before Shadow was Shadow, really.

Yeah, it's kinda like Dark Samus, I think. They have vastly different powersets, but their thing is being a copy of the main character and theoretically could work as Echoes, even if they'd work better as fully original characters.

 

[RiuBert]

Just used the site. 7NATOR said the numbering for different stuff was completely different for the Japanese site, so I just found Pyra and Sephiroth's packs and worked up from there.

EDIT: Tried with the FP1 packs, and after you go over Byleth it sends you to, uh...
Deluxe Edition特典パック | My Nintendo Store（マイニンテンドーストア）
...Yeah.

Also, if you try to go back from Min Min there just isn't anything.

Ive looked at the Japanese website and checked the codes. And while the Pass 2 fighters + Zelda custome are ordered, the Pass 1 fighters arent. What I mean is that on the Pass 1 the fighters are ordered but Piranha Plant and the Rex custome have their own separated codes, breaking your theory. Ive updated the thread, check it for further explanation.

 

[RGFS]

Personally, I've never really gotten Metal Sonic as an echo compared to Shadow. I mean, if anything, I think Metal Sonic is a less natural fit. I don't think I've ever seen the guy do a spin attack.

Metal Sonic was a skin for Sonic if you completed Adventure 1 I think. Depending on how they handle echoes, we could get both. Why not? Maybe someone else is in charge of echoes and we get a whole fat chunk of em to wrap up Ultimate. If we get both Shadow and Metal Sonic, we represent all three main eras. Sonic represents the modern era, Metal represents the classic era, and Shadow represents the adventure era.

Shadow would have a different run animation and maybe have a similar attack to Joker's gun as a side special. He could have Bayonetta and Mythra's dodge mechanic to replicate Chaos Control. Maybe also be slightly slower than Sonic.

Metal would also have a different run animation too but he would deal more damage and be significantly heavier. As a balance, he could be slightly slower and have a little more end-lag.

If you can't all tell yet, I'm really excited about the potential of a few echoes before Ultimate is done lol.

Ive looked at the Japanese website and checked the codes. And while the Pass 2 fighters + Zelda custome are ordered, the Pass 1 fighters arent. What I mean is that on the Pass 1 the fighters are ordered but Piranha Plant and the Rex custome have their own separated codes, breaking your theory. Ive updated the thread, check it for further explanation.

Awwwwwww man! The plot thickens! I hate how much you're getting my hopes up but I love it!

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I don't think I've ever seen the guy do a spin attack.

He does summon other robo hedgehogs that spin-dash, so I don't think it would be too farfetched for him to be able to do so as well. Though...I'm not the most knowledgeable on the topic.

I mean…the arena in Ultimate kinda resembles the arena in Super Star. It’s may not be 1:1, but it’s not exactly that far off.

Not really. Kirby Superstar's arena is some sort of magical platform that doesn't obey the laws of physics (the ground is constantly traveling left, but the background is traveling right, while Kirby himself is unaffected by the motion), while this is some nondescript creepy planet area. IIRC it's supposed to be somewhat similar to the area you find it in the World of Light.

 

[PSIGuy]

isn't it crazy how we still don't have a proper boss fight mode? it'd be nice to be able to fight who you want, as you want, without replaying huge swathes of World of Light

 

[ahemtoday]

Well with SHADOW, I am firmly in team "Yes, he COULD be an echo, but with the Chaos powers and his general edgier attitude, he's got enough to make him a completely different fighter, even if by "different" I mean he's LIKE Sonic in the same way Wolf is LIKE Fox. Clearly inspired by but different in enough ways."

The thing with Metal Sonic is that we haven't really seen him do a TON that Sonic doesn't already do without having to transform into a big Metal Madness/Overlord dragon or something. Other than the "Black Shield" in multiplayer Sonic Adventure 2... he really is very much like Sonic. He goes fast, does Homing attacks, insists that he's the SUPERIOR Sonic. He could PROBABLY do a Spin-Dash or "might as well be Spin-Dash" if they wanted him to.

Wouldn't be any weirder than Daisy having the Toad move even though she has very little to no direct association with Toads.

I... genuinely don't know which appearances you're thinking of, here. Because the foremost things that spring to my mind are Sonic CD, Sonic Adventure 2, and Sonic Mania.

In Sonic CD, his debut appearance, he flies forward, and performs two attacks while trying to outrace Sonic. Unusually enough, they actually have names. There's the "V. Maximum Overdrive Attack", which is basically a forward rush attack; and the Ring Spark Field, which is an electric-y attack that Metal Sonic has to slow down for. Notably, he doesn't really spin. Even when jumping. I mean, he doesn't jump, he flies. And he doesn't spin while doing it.

This boss fight actually really stuck in the series, apparently, because both Generations and Mania reference it heavily for their own Metal Sonic boss fight. While I mentioned Mania was one of the biggest impressions I had of him, the parts of the boss fight that aren't directly based on the fight from CD are him in a weird Newtrogic High-style robot dock or turned giant, so neither of them really translate well to Smash.

Then we get to Sonic Adventure 2. And yes, I checked, he does spin while jumping in SA2. And does a homing attack. But I'm not really sure why this is what most people are looking at when he's only playable in the multiplayer mode and - more importantly - doesn't work that way in most other games. But somehow Shadow's chaos stuff - which is only a part of his regular moveset in, like, 06 - is more integral to the character than the stuff Metal does?

I think Metal Sonic has plenty of potential to be unique, but for what it's worth I think having him mirror Sonic makes plenty of sense. That's kinda the original intent behind the character, after all. Similarly I don't even think Shadow would work too well as an echo, but is it possible and does it make enough sense? Yeah of course. Metal Sonic was Shadow before Shadow was Shadow, really.

Yeah, it's kinda like Dark Samus, I think. They have vastly different powersets, but their thing is being a copy of the main character and theoretically could work as Echoes, even if they'd work better as fully original characters.

I mean, yeah, it's a Dark Samus situation. But if we're going to do a Dark Samus situation, I reckon we should pick the character that actually did most of the stuff Sonic does in their debut and most games thereafter.

 

[Guynamednelson]

without replaying huge swathes of World of Light

I was going to mention there's also Sephiroth's classic mode, but you said you want to fight bosses in any order.

 

[SharkLord]

Ive looked at the Japanese website and checked the codes. And while the Pass 2 fighters + Zelda custome are ordered, the Pass 1 fighters arent. What I mean is that on the Pass 1 the fighters are ordered but Piranha Plant and the Rex custome have their own separated codes, breaking your theory. Ive updated the thread, check it for further explanation.

Wait...

But if Rex has a separate code from the rest of FP1, that wouldn't really fit. Ancient Armor, the bonus Mii of FP2, is ordered together with it. Rex, the bonus Mii of FP1, isn't. More than anything, that just says the numbering is inconsistent. Either way, the theory is built on the AU/NA site having a gap between FP2 and it's Mii, so if it's not with any other sites, it throws that theory into question.

 

[Louie G.]

Ive looked at the Japanese website and checked the codes. And while the Pass 2 fighters + Zelda custome are ordered, the Pass 1 fighters arent. What I mean is that on the Pass 1 the fighters are ordered but Piranha Plant and the Rex custome have their own separated codes, breaking your theory. Ive updated the thread, check it for further explanation.

Wait so, just for clarity sake, is there anything on the Japanese website that alludes to this bonus item too?

Or is it just going off of all the other websites where the 73 value is absent, and just assuming that Japan would list it differently as they did Plant and Rex? Would definitely be a lot more concrete if there was something on the Japanese site that hinted us toward this as well, but if it's just handled differently altogether (presumably just ordered based on the time of reveal / release?) there may be no real way of knowing.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I was going to mention there's also Sephiroth's classic mode, but you said you want to fight bosses in any order.

Well, there's also the part about that being locked to one character (unless you have 2 players, which one player would still be forced to play Sephiroth anyway).

 

[TheCJBrine]

I'm pretty sure it's not.

I'm positive that if this were the place you fought Marx in Super Star, Sakurai would've had the texture to that of the original, with the purple ground and the stars on the ground, even if they didn't move. Sakurai is all about those details, especially when it comes to his games. Marx's stage in Smash Ultimate looks like they are on the moon with a starry sky background and a bit of a sunset.

You have a point, but idk, I just assumed it was a more “realistic” or revamped idea/recreation, since it’s still in space and all. Maybe to make it a bit more spooky and fit better, idk.

Maybe what I thought were “hills” could even be stars shining over the horizon, like the sunset.

It could be some new place, though, of course. Personally I just like the idea of it being a recreation made to make it look like a better fit or something, though they could’ve kept the stars on the ground tbh; I can imagine a flat purple area with a star pattern on modern tech maybe feeling a bit plain/uninteresting even with the HD space sky, which purple may have blended in too much with the sky they wanted.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I was going to mention there's also Sephiroth's classic mode, but you said you want to fight bosses in any order.

Well, there's also the part about that being locked to one character (unless you have 2 players, which one player would still be forced to play Sephiroth anyway).

And also, you can’t do the Master Hand vs clones battle or have Galeem and Dharkon as part of that classic route...

 

[Technomage]

Who says the echo has to be OF that fighter? Perhaps it's just "an echo", right?

The one and only example of that I can think of... a Sonic character, with a bonus Metal Sonic as an echo of the already existing Sonic.


Like... that's the "gimmick" of Fighter Pack 10: They come with a Sonic echo so it's LIKE you're getting two in one go!

Amy and Metal Sonic. Amy doesn't have MUCH of a gimmick HERSELF, but the bonus Metal Sonic is not only a Sonic CD throwback, but is also an added incentive to let Amy chase Sonic into your copy of the game!

Eggman and Metal Sonic: Eggman and his creation

Shadow and Metal Sonic: The "Sonic Rivals" (and two Legacy XP characters if you wanna touch that subject)

Point is, Metal isn't an echo of the DLC fighter... but he is a super cool echo of Sonic, adding more MANIA to Sonic. Plus a FINE reason to finally add "What I'm Made Of" and correct that crime of NOT having it.


View attachment 309861

"You might know everything I'm going to do, but that's not going to help you because I know everything YOU'RE going to do! STRRRRRRRRRANGE, isn't it? GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!"

Interesting ideas. And you're right about the fact that the echo doesn't have to copy a DLC char, though it be a great theme for CP11.

 

[RiuBert]

Wait...

But if Rex has a separate code from the rest of FP1, that wouldn't really fit. Ancient Armor, the bonus Mii of FP2, is ordered together with it. Rex, the bonus Mii of FP1, isn't. More than anything, that just says the numbering is inconsistent. Either way, the theory is built on the AU/NA site having a gap between FP2 and it's Mii, so if it's not with any other sites, it throws that theory into question.

The thing is that Piranha Plant has a different code than all the other Pass 1 fighters on Japan, but for all other regions it was considered as "part of the Pass 1", being next to Joker. Then why are all the codes different on Japan? I dont have any idea... but it seems to be pretty consistent on all the other regions.

 

[SharkLord]

Wait so, just for clarity sake, is there anything on the Japanese website that alludes to this bonus item too?

Or is it just going off of all the other websites where the 73 value is absent, and just assuming that Japan would list it differently as they did Plant and Rex? Would definitely be a lot more concrete if there was something on the Japanese site that hinted us toward this as well, but if it's just handled differently altogether (presumably just ordered based on the time of reveal / release?) there may be no real way of knowing.

Yeah, there just isn't anything on the Japanese site. The theory presented is that a bonus character would be counted separately, but there isn't anything on the Japanese site that actually implies there's a bonus fighter. It's all based on the AU/NA site; Trying to tie it back to the initial theory instead of actually backing it up with anything. It seems like the JP site is just random in terms of order and we can't glean anything from it.

 

[RiuBert]

Wait so, just for clarity sake, is there anything on the Japanese website that alludes to this bonus item too?

Or is it just going off of all the other websites where the 73 value is absent, and just assuming that Japan would list it differently as they did Plant and Rex? Would definitely be a lot more concrete if there was something on the Japanese site that hinted us toward this as well, but if it's just handled differently altogether (presumably just ordered based on the time of reveal / release?) there may be no real way of knowing.

There was nothing I could find on the Japanese website, so Ill assume that they just ordered everything completely different. No idea why

 

[Louie G.]

Yeah, there just isn't anything on the Japanese site. The theory presented is that a bonus character would be counted separately, but there isn't anything on the Japanese site that actually implies there's a bonus fighter. It's all based on the AU/NA site; Trying to tie it back to the initial theory instead of actually backing it up with anything. It seems like the JP site is just random in terms of order and we can't glean anything from it.

There was nothing I could find on the Japanese website, so Ill assume that they just ordered everything completely different. No idea why

Well in any case, the fact that it's at least not limited exclusively to the NZ site is room enough for suspicion. Unfortunately not as undeniable as it could have been if we got that confirmation of EVERY region including Japan, but I think there being some consistency across what we can gauge shows us that it's probably not simply a listing error.

Treading with caution, but I'm optimistic about it.

 

[7NATOR]

I... genuinely don't know which appearances you're thinking of, here. Because the foremost things that spring to my mind are Sonic CD, Sonic Adventure 2, and Sonic Mania.

In Sonic CD, his debut appearance, he flies forward, and performs two attacks while trying to outrace Sonic. Unusually enough, they actually have names. There's the "V. Maximum Overdrive Attack", which is basically a forward rush attack; and the Ring Spark Field, which is an electric-y attack that Metal Sonic has to slow down for. Notably, he doesn't really spin. Even when jumping. I mean, he doesn't jump, he flies. And he doesn't spin while doing it.

This boss fight actually really stuck in the series, apparently, because both Generations and Mania reference it heavily for their own Metal Sonic boss fight. While I mentioned Mania was one of the biggest impressions I had of him, the parts of the boss fight that aren't directly based on the fight from CD are him in a weird Newtrogic High-style robot dock or turned giant, so neither of them really translate well to Smash.

Then we get to Sonic Adventure 2. And yes, I checked, he does spin while jumping in SA2. And does a homing attack. But I'm not really sure why this is what most people are looking at when he's only playable in the multiplayer mode and - more importantly - doesn't work that way in most other games. But somehow Shadow's chaos stuff - which is only a part of his regular moveset in, like, 06 - is more integral to the character than the stuff Metal does?



I mean, yeah, it's a Dark Samus situation. But if we're going to do a Dark Samus situation, I reckon we should pick the character that actually did most of the stuff Sonic does in their debut and most games thereafter.

I think you should have mentioned Sonic the Fighters (the game where alot of Sonic's Smash Moveset come from). Metal I believe has copied abilities of the other Fighters, but he also has Laser, a Psycho Crusher, and THE CLAW stab attack

I agree that Metal shouldn't be an echo, but I think the problem with Metal is it's kind of hard to argue for him being the 2nd Sonic character, or just getting in over Eggman, Tails, Shadow, & Knuckles. This is also the same predicament that Dark Samus went though since it was hard to argue for her over Ridley from a Merit standpoint. I'd honestly say a major reason she got alot of support was because Ridley was deemed impossible at one point to Implement.

Also regarding Shadow, If you gonna argue that Metal's Boss fights showcase how he wouldn't be an Echo, than you should do the Same thing for Shadow, since usually he does have his Chaos abilities in his boss fights, even if he doesn't have them when you play as him

Well in any case, the fact that it's at least not limited exclusively to the NZ site is room enough for suspicion. Unfortunately not as undeniable as it could have been if we got that confirmation of EVERY region including Japan, but I think there being some consistency across what we can gauge shows us that it's probably not simply a listing error.

Treading with caution, but I'm optimistic about it.

To be honest, If the page on the NZ Site for the thing that's between CP11 and Ancient Armor just led to a regular error in the Data of the page, I would just chalk it up to a listing error, especially combining with the inconsistent listings across the regions

though it seems that the gap between CP11 and the Ancient Armor will actually be filled, and not just left there, with there being data for something being purchasable on that page

 

[SharkLord]

Hmm...

Anyone able to check the US site's codes? Either I can't check the page because I already purchased it, or I just have no idea how to work it.