DK Matchups

[itsthebigfoot]

The discussion thread seems to have died (again), so I'm just going to arbitrarily post my opinions on his matchups, write a little explanation and work from there

not finished yet

Disadvantages
LOL
DDD -> the ***** can shield grab almost every move you have and infinites you...

40-60
Wario -> nasty cg, but when he's going for a grab you can easily pivot grab him into grab release punch, still bad, but between bair camping and grab releases is entirely manageable

ZSS -> She's just weird, I don't like having a disadvantage when it comes to range

Pikachu -> can cg us (fthrow), camps pretty hard, really awkward priority. I don't like it

Diddy -> nana's everywhere, but he's dead once offstage, gimping him is too easy


45-55
MK -> if it wasn't for the nado, this would be an advantage, but the nado does exist, and working around it is a pain in the ***. however you can work around it a bit, still not good though

Falco -> cg to 60%, camps a lot, and the jab is annoying, but his fall speed makes him easy to combo and he dies early/you live a long while

Ice Climbers -> grab = death, but grab is decently avoidable


Neutrals
R.O.B. -> has problems koing you, but the camp is annoying, and his bair keeps you offstage for a while

Peach -> annoying dair, but bair and ko difference makes it easily doable

Snake -> camps hard, but you can gimp him kinda easily, forced groundbreak over the ledge is preferred over cargo dthrow, but not necessary

Olimar -> has problems landing ko moves around the punch, dies easily, but is ****ing annoying


Advantages
55-45
Toon Link -> no range, punch literally outranges all his non-projectile moves

Bowser -> has major problems with bair, but outside of that is very annoying, watch out for his punishment game

Kirby -> combos you, but loses in priority and ko power, which both hurt him kinda badly

Marth -> abuse your weight and spacing, you can play most of the match with just bair and punch and be fine

60-40
Game and Watch -> utilt goes through all aerials and comes out in half the time, he'll try to shield grab, just pivot grab that

Fox -> upb ***** fox, and you can shield grab most moves, which helps in getting him offstage. your entire gameplan is get him offstage and gimp

Lucario -> a spacing character with less range, koing him early limits his ko power, makes for some dumb matches, but you come out ahead

Pokemon Trainer -> charizard is the only problematic one, spam dtilt and go for gimps vs ivy, spam bair vs squirtle and go for early punch kos

70-30
Mario -> do nothing but bait his jumps and bair for the majority of the match and watch as you **** him

Link -> so easy to gimp/ko, has problems koing around punch

Ness/Lucas -> lol infinite, maybe easier than 70-30


Jigglypuff


more later

 

[Luigi player]

Hm I'd say: (this is all just imo)

ZSS is not 40:60, more like 50:50. Once you figured her out she is a bit easier.

Pikachu is not 40:60, but 45:55. His priority is annoying, but he still dies rather early and you should live pretty long. Even if he can CG you it's not that bad...

Fox I'd say is more 55:45 instead of 60:40. UpB doesn't **** him, he can run away from that if he sees it coming and punish it easily. His laser makes you approach him even if it's just a few % you have to come to him all the time. And once Fox comes through your range DK gets combod easily... at low % at least. Dair to whatever is also annoying...

Lucario is also 55:45 instead of 60:40. Even if he has less range, he has more priority... a Lucario can be a real pain to KO if he's at high % because he'll play really save and it'll be hard to hit him..

PT might be 55:45 aswell, but I'm not sure.

Link would be 65:35 and not 70:30 imo. I think he's not that easy, but you still have an advantage.


It's strange to see that you think vs Mario it's 70:30. Some time ago everyone said it's 50:50.

I think it's maybe 55:45 for DK...

 

[Stannum]

cool thanks for this

 

[riti]

i really agree with you for the 40:60 disadvantages

 

[Ripple]

I just updated the match up thread yesterday because it was dead....

diagree with olimar 40-60

link is not 70-30. played legan yet? I have. I'd say 55-45

jiggs is not easier than 70-30

wario is even

mario not THAT easy 60-40/55-45

I say even or diadvantage against TL

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I just updated the match up thread yesterday because it was dead....

diagree with olimar 40-60

link is not 70-30. played legan yet? I have. I'd say 55-45

jiggs is not easier than 70-30

wario is even

mario not THAT easy 60-40/55-45

I say even or diadvantage against TL

olimar we'll have a big discussion about later, he's too frail to be 40-60

link, I haven't played legan, but I did play deva, I think it's pretty easy since he can't really space around the punch and outside of bombs his projectiles don't really stop you.

I've 3 stocked every jiggs I've ever played in a serious match, two stocked if I'm screwing around in friendlies trying to go for shield breaks

wario isn't even, the bite is too good. I've played fiction and futile enough to know it isn't even

mario is that easy, one of the mario mains showed it to me. we played a match normally and I beat him 1 stock ~80%, then he told me to just bait jumps and spam bair, nothing else and I 3 stocked him.

toon link seems kinda hard at first, but watch his spacing, even if he's spacing to whiff in front of you he's never outside of the punch's range. also, bombs are the only annoying projectile he has, bow and boomerang just kinda lose to bair and ftilt

 

[Ragnar0k]

Olimar doesn't have the advantage, it's either even or our advantage. Just because a matchup is weird and seems hard doesn't mean it's in their favor.

Bite isn't everything. Against Wario you shouldn't be shielding unless absolutely necessary, or if he can't bite you because he's on his bike or something. Spacing is generally a better alternative to shielding.

 

[Big O]

ZSS isn't 40:60. I can't see it being any worse than even. I've played some very good ZSS players at Genesis (Warp in doubles and Faded Image in singles) and she is definitely not a counter. She can't even really cg us btw. The only annoying thing she has is available only in the beginning of the match and easily tossed offstage.

 

[blakinola]

The worst part about DK v Olimar is there are little to no recent videos of him

 

[Ripple]

DK vs. oli is one of the least likely to happen matches

 

[daisho]

DK vs. oli is one of the least likely to happen matches

And why is that...

 

[Ripple]

And why is that...

how many DK players are there? how many oli players are there?

answer to both: not that many

dk is the 2nd or 3rd least popular character and olimar isn't that popular

 

[Cyphus]

i dont think theres any reason we should agree on any of these. we all have different opinions from our different experience and, personally, i take the ratio system a little more literally than most.

also, and this is really important. we can't OVERSIMPLIFY the matchups. "punch outranges everything they have" is not a valid reason why DK can beat a character.


80: ddd
65: olimar
60: mk, diddy, falco
55: wario, toon, pika?, ice, pit (spam, chainthrow, edgeguarding)
50: marth, gw, snake, rob, lucario, kirby?
45: zamus, peach

this aint friendly matches- im' talking about tourney-playing-gay-to-win stuff. This is where DK's true tier of mid gets exploited and where there ain't no 'tricks' you can pull, since you and your oponent both know the matchup.

wario's infinite is gay, but even wario pros mess it up since its so weak and long to do. DK kills wario w/ grabrelease-upsmash guaranteed KO at 90% (or slightly earlier) and b.air beats wario's air camping. bite is great against DK too, but its still a fair matchup.

i dont think toon link is simply 'good' against dk, i think toon link is literally high tier, and he deserves much more attention as an amazing character. DK is a huge target w/ a bad shield, and toon link is very fast, has amazing projectile camping and mixups, plus z.air ****, guaranteed footstool combos, etc. i have experience vs lee, hyro, and germ's toon link, and although its winnable, i honestly believe campy spam is the way to beat DK sadly, as it is legit in countering dk.


i dont know how i feel about Pikachu. I've 2-0ed stealth raptor in pools a while back (i think he plays ripple?) i would need alot more experience to have a better conclusion, but for know i would guess 55 pika.

lucario can f.air the crap outta DK (even with good DI), aura spheres and f.smash outspace him too, and generally speaking lucario is a little faster, but just the fact that DK weighs more, can learn to punish d.airs, and might KO him early, makes the matchup even. possibly 55 DK's favor.

i have so little kirby exp its funny

 

[itsthebigfoot]

?? lucario isn't faster, outside of dair and fair all his moves are slower than dk's counterparts, and he moves slower too.

edit: and you can simplify matchups, both characters are going to space pokes and follow them up for damage, what matters are the moves your game revolves around, for dk this is usually landing ko moves like punch, as well as walling bair (or at least, my dk revolves around punch and bair), so, if one of those moves works especially well, you can usually abuse it and get better results. when I play toon links I usually focus on landing punches, which is either 30 damage or a ko around 70, both of which change the match around a lot

 

[Ragnar0k]

Never rely on one move too much, you get predictable.

 

[Cyphus]

dk's moves may come out as fast as lucario, but dk lags twice as hard on everything. lucarios attacks are very in-and-out which let him maneuver and get in alot easier as well as combo much harder. lee has incorporated wave-bounding aura cancels into his lucario game and it makes lucario so much faster you never know when he's going to commit with an approach since lucario can zigzag all over the place now. but its still a fair matchup, prolly slightly in DK's favor all stages considered. lucario is an underrated character in general i think. the game rewards you for doing bad with him and makes comebacks so much easier, lol. thats a psychological game booster you dont get w/ others

 

[ZxChrono]

dont got too much to say but fighting ZSS is not 40-60. only annoying thing about her is her stun shot and that thing you can cancel it out, if she charges its easy to get around. its more 55-45 DK if anything. i have played a decent amount of ZSS and i wont say i always won but it was always within the last stock and at kill percentage when i did lose. shes definately not a counter maybe you need more ZSS experience to see that. i agree with cyphus about the whole playing gay thing but i still think its even between tlink. kirby is 55:45 DK imo, kirby has combos early on in your stock but hes got nothing on bair.

 

[Ragnar0k]

I have some trouble with kirby because I base a lot of my game around offstage play and gimps, and kirby is one of the few characters that reliably beats dk offstage. Or it might just be that the only kirby I've played is chudat and he's just nasty.

 

[DKwill]

Lol yeah kirby just wrecks DK offstage I agree, its the scariest thing to have a Kirby right above you off the stage within perfect spacing of a d-air =/ Kirby's grab game is amazing, but if you get caught in his grab range jabs can usually save you. Also D-smash and F-smash for KO's work like a charm at around 80-90% =)

In terms of the Lucario matchup, I used to have a LOT of trouble with getting comboed and the d-air pressure coming down on DK's shield. Recently though, I talked to Arrancar and he taught me the matchup: DK's b-air, spaced properly, literally beats everything Lucario can do, aside from his fully charged aurablast at high percent. Even if he tries to blast you when you are approaching, your foot will go through his blast and hit him in the face lol. And something I didn't know until recently, which makes me feel like a noob... is that you can struggle out of his side-b running chain grab on DK since it is a grab... lol. I can't believe I never knew that until this past weekend =/

Also, something I learned that Cable does and I thank him for ****** Arrancar with this so that I may share this with all of you: if Lucario ever d-airs on your shield directly above you, multiple times- wait until he hits your shield and then immediately d-smash. It's the most satisfying feeling I have had in a while =) (The only reason I hadn't normally done this was bc I like to keep d-smash fresh for kills)

In terms of the Wario matchup.... lol I learned from Blackanese, an IC main, that you can grab release F-smash @_@ I believe it is only ensured when you buffer perfectly and they do not want to use their fart- for some reason when my friend would fart out of grab release early on in the match to escape this, it would trip me before I could F-smash... every time! lol And yes I can confirm the amazingness of grab release up smash at 90%, instant kill, and its even lower on Halberd and places with really low ceilings- somewhere around 75-80%. And grab release to fully charged punch at the edge of the stage works wonders of course.

Also, I play against Snakeee's ZSS a lot, and have played Dazwa in tournament at SNES. What I found to be most useful when fighting ZSS is that she is very jab happy up close. If the jabs start to hit you, just hold your shield and you will inevitably powershield her next set of jabs, its that simple- just grab lol. Also, if you see the side b coming its probably best to just avoid it but you can also cancel it with DK's elbow during his f tilt, just like any other low priority projectile. Avoid Rainbow Cruise at all costs!! It is devastating to the soul of a DK main to be camped on this map by an intelligent ZSS main- thats what happened to me round 1 against Dazwa in the final game of our set =/

 

[crifer]

2 weeks ago I was frequently 2 stocked by a ZSS main,
now I go 50:50, u just have to be patient and use bair as primary approach.

I camp wario´s back with bair lol, it´s quite funny xD

Only Tink is a problem, link maybe, too.
I more likely go fox against a link or tink than DK O.o

 

[Stealth Raptor]

ive played ripple once (and teammed with him once), but he is the only good DK i have ever played, so yeah. i personally think it is pretty even, but then again i dont like camping lol

 

[Veggi]

Bigfoot, want to play my Mario on wifi? Not to take a shot at proving you wrong because wifi is wifi and stuff, but I want to get a feel for why you believe the matchup is 70:30. Personally, I believe it's 50:50 or 55:45 DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I would if I could, my wii has the disk read error

but at active gamers I'll try to get a couple matches with vato break recorded to show you

 

[Veggi]

Alright, that would work too. My disk does that whenever Ike, Bowser, or Ganondorf are selected. : /

 

[Ripple]

alright guys since I don't like looking at a blank match up chart in the tactical discussion lets decide the ratio for the ones they don't have up yet.

here's yours so you can copy paste
ZSS
TL
Sonic
Sheik
Zelda
PT
squirtle
ivy
char
lucas
mario
ness
yoshi
smaus
jiggs
falcon
link
ganon

here are my thoughts

ZSS 55-45
TL 45-55
Sonic 60-40
Sheik 60-40
Zelda 65-35
PT 60-40
squirtle 50-50 reflex is too good with him
ivy 70-30
char 55-45 / 60-40
lucas 65-35
mario 55-45/ 60-40
ness 70-30
yoshi 55-45
samus 55-45 tudor is a monster
jiggs 70-30
falcon 60-40
link 60-40
ganon 70-30

discuss

 

[mmf]

Hey I'm having a little trouble with Kirby, my friend mains him and we go back and forth in wins, but sometimes he wins by a good two stocks. He likes to B-air camp a lot, and I try to camp him back but most the time kirby is to short for b-air and I whiff it over his head and then I get a F-smash in the face. Also I was wondering what a good edge recovery would be on a kirby, <100 I just do attack or roll dodge, and >100 I try a punch recovery.

He also is trigger happy with final cutter at times. D-air isn't that much of a problem as utilt and u-air wrecks it. So I was just wondering if you guys have some tips(then the ones already posted) on the match up.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Hey I'm having a little trouble with Kirby, my friend mains him and we go back and forth in wins, but sometimes he wins by a good two stocks. He likes to B-air camp a lot, and I try to camp him back but most the time kirby is to short for b-air and I whiff it over his head and then I get a F-smash in the face. Also I was wondering what a good edge recovery would be on a kirby, <100 I just do attack or roll dodge, and >100 I try a punch recovery.

He also is trigger happy with final cutter at times. D-air isn't that much of a problem as utilt and u-air wrecks it. So I was just wondering if you guys have some tips(then the ones already posted) on the match up.

Stick to tilts in this MU, don't use bair unless Kirby is already in the air. As for ledge recovery, it depends. How is he spacing?

Just PS the projectile from FC and punish. As to your comment on dair... what? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Edit: The page said I double posted? Sorry if I did.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Bair for a reason. Don't just sh double bair because you can. I used to only sh double bair because I thought 2 bairs one jump= awshum. Eventually I realized it's predictable and that varying your timing allows you much more precision and a higher hit %.

 

[mmf]

Yea I started to sh B-air because he kept telling me that it pressured him like crazy, but then i realized how predictable it was and stopped. With Kirby's Dair I was saying that I was beating it out with Dk's uptilt and up air.

For the ledge options he sometimes does SH dair other times he spaces towards the middle and tries to punish any get ups I try, it's mostly the dair that gets me though, I just don't always like using the rolling recovery.

 

[daisho]

Bair for a reason. Don't just sh double bair because you can. I used to only sh double bair because I thought 2 bairs one jump= awshum. Eventually I realized it's predictable and that varying your timing allows you much more precision and a higher hit %.

QFT Same exact thing happened to me.

 

[mmf]

Glad that my b-air happy streak only lasted for about 30 mins xD

 

[Ragnar0k]

Bair is still amazing though, just try to use it smartly.

 

[mmf]

I will, so ledge options with Kirby, mostly it comes down to either the rolling get up or getting hit, any suggestions on avoiding the last option and having DK controlling the match?

 

[PhantomX]

I think you guys are being overly kind to yourselves with respect to the Wario matchup. The CG really isn't hard, Cyphus, I just don't like CGing in general. Bass will do that **** to you aaaaaaall day though, lol.

Instant Wipeout > Bike Throw is pretty dirty against DK too.

 

[SuSa]

Wario CG's, you grab release punch.

I'd prefer to ask for the gentlemans rule.

Now on that topic, I agree with Phantom.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Gentlemen's rule all dai.

lol i1337, taking a phrase in something I posted and making it awesomer.

 

[Big O]

I think you guys are being overly kind to yourselves with respect to the Wario matchup. The CG really isn't hard, Cyphus, I just don't like CGing in general. Bass will do that **** to you aaaaaaall day though, lol.

Instant Wipeout > Bike Throw is pretty dirty against DK too.

I'd say DK is the best at using your own bike against you though. He has cargo armor while carrying it and is obviously the most mobile character while holding it. He can setup some nasty combos with it too. Grabs in this MU are ridiculous for both sides.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

alright guys since I don't like looking at a blank match up chart in the tactical discussion lets decide the ratio for the ones they don't have up yet.

here's yours so you can copy paste
ZSS
TL
Sonic
Sheik
Zelda
PT
squirtle
ivy
char
lucas
mario
ness
yoshi
smaus
jiggs
falcon
link
ganon

here are my thoughts

ZSS 55-45
TL 45-55
Sonic 60-40
Sheik 60-40
Zelda 65-35
PT 60-40
squirtle 50-50 reflex is too good with him
ivy 70-30
char 55-45 / 60-40
lucas 65-35
mario 55-45/ 60-40
ness 70-30
yoshi 55-45
samus 55-45 tudor is a monster
jiggs 70-30
falcon 60-40
link 60-40
ganon 70-30

discuss

ZSS 45-55
TL 60-40
Sonic 60-40
Sheik 65-35
Zelda 55-45
PT 60-40
squirtle 65-35 <-- I have a whole lot of practice against typh, and typh's squirtle is better than reflex, unfortunately typh sucks with charizard/ivy compared to reflex
ivy 60-40
char 40-60
lucas 100-0 w/infinite, 70-30 w/o
mario 70-30, wait for him to jump and then bair, it works
ness 90-10 w/infinite 60-40 w/o
yoshi 65-35
smaus 60-40
jiggs 80-20
falcon 60-40
link 70-30
ganon 70-30


and wario is 40-60, dk does lose

although bairs and the grab release are quite ****

 

[PhantomX]

I'd say DK is the best at using your own bike against you though. He has cargo armor while carrying it and is obviously the most mobile character while holding it. He can setup some nasty combos with it too. Grabs in this MU are ridiculous for both sides.

Instant Wipeout > Bikethrow occurs when you're trying to recover, and does ridiculous damage to you. Cyphus experienced it.

 

[phi1ny3]

dk's moves may come out as fast as lucario, but dk lags twice as hard on everything. lucarios attacks are very in-and-out which let him maneuver and get in alot easier as well as combo much harder. lee has incorporated wave-bounding aura cancels into his lucario game and it makes lucario so much faster you never know when he's going to commit with an approach since lucario can zigzag all over the place now. but its still a fair matchup, prolly slightly in DK's favor all stages considered. lucario is an underrated character in general i think. the game rewards you for doing bad with him and makes comebacks so much easier, lol. thats a psychological game booster you dont get w/ others

^This. I think ever since Trela has been showing this stuff, it surprisingly has been adding dimension to lucario's approach and camp game options (when I experimented with it myself, I was surprised the mobility it could give, especially against a non-projectile game), as flashy as it is. Tbh, Bigfoot, I disagree with 60:40, DK's nowhere in the league MK, snake, or marth are for lucario in difficulty, lucario can get on bair decently if he knows mechanics of fullhop + the fact that he doesn't have to approach.
Lucario is naturally slightly slow on startup, we all know that, but trading a tiny bit of speed for disjoint + long lasting hitboxes on top of really low endlag is something I consider pretty good, especially in a MU where he thankfully doesn't have to approach (if DK had a good projectile, my word lucario would be screwed).

In terms of the Lucario matchup, I used to have a LOT of trouble with getting comboed and the d-air pressure coming down on DK's shield. Recently though, I talked to Arrancar and he taught me the matchup: DK's b-air, spaced properly, literally beats everything Lucario can do, aside from his fully charged aurablast at high percent. Even if he tries to blast you when you are approaching, your foot will go through his blast and hit him in the face lol. And something I didn't know until recently, which makes me feel like a noob... is that you can struggle out of his side-b running chain grab on DK since it is a grab... lol. I can't believe I never knew that until this past weekend =/

Also, something I learned that Cable does and I thank him for ****** Arrancar with this so that I may share this with all of you: if Lucario ever d-airs on your shield directly above you, multiple times- wait until he hits your shield and then immediately d-smash. It's the most satisfying feeling I have had in a while =) (The only reason I hadn't normally done this was bc I like to keep d-smash fresh for kills)

Arrancar is meh, he's got a ways to go. Dair is mad unsafe on shield unless spaced properly, and even then, that usually requires 2nd jump or full hop, both can be a little unsafe, every good lucario has learned this at one point or another. "Dair multiple times" sounds like a bad lucario habit, it isn't a very good idea to work on DK while he's grounded like that, I'd rather just keep away instead. DK Bair is really really good in many instances, but I've seen it been breached a lot (and I don't mean punished ooS, I know the whole "perfect spaced bair" thing). I'm also a little surprised Bigfoot didn't mention that FPCG is breakable, although unfortunately, there's been a possible "option" (still untested) that makes it practically doable again vs. DK and D3. Even so, lucario's string game has evolved to the point that FPCG is virtually unneeded, most lucarios do A/AA->FPx2-3 depending on when they start mashing, then fair-> nair/fair -> dair/even fair-> AS if they feel like it, and it usually does the same amount of damage the old FPCG did (besides, DK could escape it iirc with DI -> upB).
imo DK still has a slight advantage. That's my two cents.