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DK Character Matchup Discussion

Jingo_Joe

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 6, 2008
Messages
118
I don't understand the hype this match-up gets, I have such a hard time against MKs. I don't see the advantage Donkey Kong has against the little guy. So what if I can F-Tilt Mach Tornado? They only ever do it to me when I'm in the air or when they're so close I couldn't pull out the tilt in time. Then I get hit by a massive amount of Shuttle Loops until I'm so disoriented I don't know whats coming next.

Granted, I was able to win a match against an MK by 9 Punching him at 45%, but I really don't know. This is one of the matches I have a lot of trouble against. I don't play many MKs, and when I do they're always online matches. Maube thats my problem?
 

WastingPenguins

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I've been slowly realizing why DK is good against MK and I've beaten some good MKs recently on the AiB ladder. The key is to just ****ing run away from the guy. ALWAYS keep your distance. If he's in close, roll the **** away from him asap because there's nothing you can do at close range, you will get ***** hard. But yeah, keep good spacing and WALK around and spam the **** out of ftilt like you've never spammed it before. It works. Walk around and swat em with ftilt every time they try to approach, it can outreach basically any approach MK attempts. Occasionally mix your approach up with a running UpB to keep him on his toes. DownB is good for spacing as well, and just pray your can land a few dsmashes for KOs.
 

Jmex

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I've been slowly realizing why DK is good against MK and I've beaten some good MKs recently on the AiB ladder. The key is to just ****ing run away from the guy. ALWAYS keep your distance. If he's in close, roll the **** away from him asap because there's nothing you can do at close range, you will get ***** hard. But yeah, keep good spacing and WALK around and spam the **** out of ftilt like you've never spammed it before. It works. Walk around and swat em with ftilt every time they try to approach, it can outreach basically any approach MK attempts. Occasionally mix your approach up with a running UpB to keep him on his toes. DownB is good for spacing as well, and just pray your can land a few dsmashes for KOs.
LMAO, best explanation ever. I loved the enthusiastic comment.
 

Ripple

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I just had MK f-smash out range my DK punch without moving

also lets face it, if a meta knight truly wanted to win then the only move it would do would be the whornado and then up b when we are around 110%
 

skuzzel

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 26, 2006
Messages
97
That comment is so full of fail.

Whornado only works when spaced and timed properly, and yes in those situations it's almost impossible to punish. That doesn't mean you cant punish it ever. You have Super amour for Christ sake. Dk has a large number of moves that can be used to punish improperly spaced whornadoes, including F smash, which is great for low percent kills. Obviously though, a good MK will use his Nado when it's hard to punish, which in turn can become predictable and thus punishable. In any case, it does a pitiful amount of damage... if your going to ***** about the nado you might as well ban Fox from using his normal special move. It racks up damage faster and is more versatile and yet I don't see people going emo about it......

By the by shielding stops the nado....

Back to the match up.....

Uhh.. it's a tough one...

A lot of Mks are very aggressive, so don't approach them. Let them come to you. That's a pretty obvious tip, but you have to realize that DK on the defense plays differently. So take some time actually practicing that.

Also, this is brawl after all, you can dodge/block/roll away from everything. Since hes chasing you, you have the unique opportunity to "choose" where you want to fight him. Use this to your advantage.

On the other hand, not all MK's are pure aggro. Doesn't matter though, don't approach them, because you will fail. Charge your punch, taunt, stand there. Just don't approach because you will fail if you do.
 

Nokonoko

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Jul 16, 2007
Messages
178
I guess Kalm’s video of DK vs Avery’s MK is worth watching …?

Like it’s been said, DK’s ftilt sure gets spammed there. You can see Kalm try to keep a distance away with rolling to downB etc., mixing up to do more than ftilt, while playing defensively.

The MK does do all the approaching, no whornadoes though.

Are there any other videos of matches with respectable MKs?
 

Brahma

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As I've said before, I don't think DK is a true counter to MK. He just has a much better matchup vs. him than a lot of other characters. MK still outprioritized DK, can combo him well, outspeeds him, and can even KO him decently. The key things DK has in this fight are KO ability and range. You need to space MK hard, work what damage you can get, and go for an early KO.
 

The Unlawful Salmon

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Apr 22, 2008
Messages
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Honestly this has been my toughest match up. All the MKs around here are really good, and they all know DK well. This match-up is definetely not in DK's favor, but it's not as bad as say an uber campy snake.

The goal here is to not get juggled(or grabbed) at all costs, and to seriously F-tilt more here than you would versus anyone else. Also be careful if MK starts switching up his approach, like if he decides to come in with a gliding swipe, hoping to catch you off guard. The worst thing that can happen to you in this match-up is if you get grabbed, and then comboed into like a zillion Uairs ending with a shuttle loop. This can be devastating, since not only is it virtually unescapable unless they mess up, but you just took like 60%+ damage and now your off the stage!

Some possible tips I can provide are:
-Landing an F-smash can kill him really early, but if you miss prepare to be punished hard. I really don't go for the F-smash unless I'm 100% sure it will land, otherwise the punishment just isn't worth it.
-Don't risk getting grabbed or you will be comboed for about 60%+.
-Space with the F-tilt like mad. Remember that this is predictable so be ready for your opponent to switch things up constantly.
-Make sure you save your shield for 2 things: Perfect shields, and the whornado. You'll need a reasonably full shield to avoid getting whornado'd.
-If you get whornado'd in the air do your best to DI out, and get back to the ground to begin spacing him out again. If you can somehow catch MK as he is falling after he misses a whornado, now's the time to go for the KO or possibly get in a full grounded UpB if he's at low %. Do the most damage possible!
-Try to stay in the center of the stage, just like vs Lucario you will lose really bad if he keeps you off of the stage.
-Not too many stages work to your advantage. I've been finding FD to be a decent choice. Any stage with close walls is bad for you since he can gimp you at an early % with a combo ending in a shuttle loop.
-Bairing may not be your best option for once, as with anything that has to do with the air is MK territory. Stay grounded whenever you can.
 

Veggi

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Nice advice. I think everything I would have said has been covered but somehow I just needed to say that MK look the most hilarious when he gets caught in DK's up b when he tries to edgeguard him. He has his bat wings out and everything, it looks hilarious to me for some reason.

One thing that might be useful, whenever I play MK's I almost always think it's a good time to use down b whenever he lands, which is wierd because he's an air character. Does anyone else have this feeling?
 

Brahma

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Salmon, good synopsis, you covered a lot of the key points vs. Meta. I actually think Bair is one of his best approaches in this matchup. It outranges MK, you just have to be able to space it well and not stick it right into his Fair. SH away and Bair can force a whiff from MK Fair and punish it.

Also, what's the best way to DI out of tornado?
 

HOHO420

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http://youtube.com/watch?v=PdmwKfPchms
Thought everyone should see this since we're talking bout metaknight. It kinda reminds of Dragon ball Z when they fight really fast. This can very annoying to fight against, since he can reappear anywhere. This kinda changes the whole bair approach seeing as he can reappear anywhere. The possibilities are endless.
 

The Unlawful Salmon

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We have a lot of MKs here, so I've gotten to play this match-up more than I'd like to.

Note: I've had no practice vs someone who can infinitely dimensional cape, so I have no idea how much worse this makes it for DK(My guess is definetely worse though.)
Edit: Apparently the IDC is getting banned everywhere like wildfire, even here.

Really this entire match-up can play out a lot differently at times, since it mostly depends on how well versed your MK opponent is vs DK. Here's an idea of what to expect on both fronts:

Your MK opponent isn't as experienced vs DK:
MK players who haven't had much DK experience will often not know exactly how to approach other than the standard MK approach. Using this against them is key to beating them. Bairing will be more effective, and trying to land Fsmashes won't be as nerve wracking since it may not always lead to being juggled like mad. If they keep coming at your Bairs, just go with it and keep mixing up all of DKs good spacing attacks. Generally they won't be able to grab-combo you into a zillion Uairs if you do get struck out of a Bair, but most will still know to at least whornado you. If they forget to whornado you when they can, don't remind them. Sometimes when losing they may attempt to start spamming whornado. Just try to predict/escape it and punish it with a finsher. It only takes one good Fsmash/DK punch/Usmash to kill them. Always try to retain position on the stage.
Even vs an lesser MK player you could lose if you keep losing position.

Your MK opponent knows DK like the back of his hand:
Bair's use here really depends on what kind of game plan MK has vs DK. What matters most is MK's approaching game plan. If you start to camp some SH Bairs vs a MK that knows DK really well, he will avoid attacking through your Bairs and use the fact your not Ftilting or grounded as a time to close in position on you to either whornado around through your Bair, or attempt to get through/around your Bair and grab-combo you. Also Bair can be risky vs MKs that know exactly when and where to strike you, because if you get struck while Bairing in the air it can lead to a whole mess of things: whornado, Uair juggles, and most often end in a quick shuttle loop off the stage. Also be prepared to avoid MKs who attempt to glide swipe you, as it can be half a mindgame to gain position on you since they land so close after they do it. The best answer to this is generally an Ftilt upwards to their face. If they do get in close with a glide swipe, they may follow it up with a whorenado or some Dtilts, leading to a trip, which leads to combo hell. Glide swipes can come from grounded shuttle loops, or just normal jumps. Just always be prepared to swat them down, and to not allow him to land too close from them. This doesn't mean Bair is useless though. A rule of thumb could be: If your opponent is attacking into your Bairs, keep Bairing. If you notice he's trying to get around them and gain position on you, then don't Bair as much and be prepared with more Ftilts.

MK could probably use the above information against DK...

Basically with the right game plan vs DK, MK can really make this match-up a nightmare.

Also DIing out of the tornado needs a bit of an explanation:
When the MK player hits you with a tornado you will need to pay attention to the current momentum of the tornado itself. You'll want to DI away from where their current momentum is heading. If MK tornados to the right, DI left(unless this would suck you back in of course). If your caught dead center in it your usually stuck through the whole thing, but sometimes they will swing wildly back and forth, and one big swing could allow you to escape. If they just rise it straight up though, your usually stuck for the whole ride. If you get caught by the outer perimeter of it, they will usually(should) tornado at you so you can't DI out so easily. If they don't, or your just too far to the outside of it, DI away from their momentum, and this should release you allowing you to go for a nice juicy Fsmash/Usmash. Just make sure if you escsape the tornado early they may still try to pick you back up, and if they can't get you they will tornado towards a platform so they can appear on the ground. Try to either land an Fsmash/Usmash/etc if you can!

I've used a mix of R.O.B. and DK to beat MKs, but have to say R.O.B. is a bit better at it than DK. Neither like the match-up though.

Also if you simply cannot beat MK with DK, try seconding ZSS for MKs. ZSS is a solid MK counter.

I'd say at worst this match-up is somewhere around 65-35 in MKs favor. :(
 

itsthebigfoot

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? mk is actually one of my easier matchups, even if they know the matchup

just keep the punch charged, stay on the ground, and don't try to approach, superarmor the tornado, you got range and power, he's only really got speed on you

60-40+ dks favor from the mks i've played (all the ones in socal)

the only real problems ive had is upb and glide attack, but i just found a few ways around that, so i think it'll only get easier from here on out

and no, metaknight does not outprioritize dk, if you go with ftilt, utilt and his basic ground game, dk has the priority (he's tied with snake priority wise) in the air bair will beat out his air game, he's just faster than you, so you gotta keep him at a distance and react quick
 

JhMS

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Since edguarding MK is just asking to get ****,I think thats a big NO in this matchup.
Recovery can be an issue versus Meta,how do you guys face that?
And another question: Does dtit help in this matchup?Maybe that can help a bit.
Overrall I think this is 60-40 in metas favor.I havent played a good Meta unfortanely(only dodge and dsmash spammers).
 

Veggi

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Since edguarding MK is just asking to get ****,I think thats a big NO in this matchup.
Recovery can be an issue versus Meta,how do you guys face that?
And another question: Does dtit help in this matchup?Maybe that can help a bit.
Overrall I think this is 60-40 in metas favor.I havent played a good Meta unfortanely(only dodge and dsmash spammers).
If MK comes out to edgeguard you, use up b early and hit him with it. Down tilt helps dtilt until they're out of range and then use down b.
 

Mr.Victory07

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Easily atleast 65-35 in DK's favor. Some things vs. MK
- When the match starts wind up you punch 1 or 2 spins, then down-b. MK is so obsessed with assaulting you, theyll likely hit it. Then proceed to bair
- Rack up % with tilt mix-ups, A A, Up-b and throws. Once around 80% you can attempt kills with smashes. A headbutt here gauruntees death
- You greatly outlive him. You'll be living usually to 140% and up, and Mks get pissy and reckless once youre hitting 180%, and theyre dying at 85%.
- Dont be afraid to TRY to edgeguard him. An off the stage bair or fair can KO in the early 100%,s. Make sure to can get back though
-f-tilt and d-tilt are your friends. They out reach him, and f-tilt goes through tornado and drill.F-tilt can also ko fresh at high%. D-tilt has a 50% trip rate so dont be afraid to use 2 at a time, you may even get a chance to f-smash.....
- Let him do the approaching, then swat him away with a tilt or proceed to down-b his ground approach
- Dont be scared off him edguarding you, i dont think any off his aerials go through your spinning kong, so its smart to uppb from afar since you have ridiculous horizontal recovery.
- Most stages dont give him the advantage, and I personally like platforms, so i suggest battlefield or pokemon stadium 1.

So go into the match and dont be afraid of Mk, because he's not that scary with Dk, and always remember you can kill early
 

Will_

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Y'all need to address the tornado better before you can call this an advantageous matchup. I don't know why, but Giant Punch, Ftilt etc. don't always work. At FAST1 I was robbed in the brackets by the ******* tornado. Can someone explain to me when and how I should hit it?
 

Cyphus

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u dont. its the cheapest move in the game.
try to play defensive, and sneak in d.tilt or occasional down Bs before he does it..if he does it...block it and run away. Or you can try to get lucky with d.smash, but it'll only go through like 20% the time.

ya'll need to play a really good/gay metaknight. I play Lee all the time (17th as fast1, and beat M2K in a friendly, lol)...trust me, the matchup is entirely uphill.

even azen said MK has the advantage on DK.
 

Brahma

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You guys are also forgetting that Ftilt, Bair and other moves may outreach him, but MK is also quick enough to sneak in attacks in between hits, and also his disjoints will outprioritize any of DK's attacks (aside from SA ones) if they trade hits.
 

Master Raven

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Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, you just have to space very well with this matchup to gain the advantage over MK. I don't know about you but I don't have too much problems with Mach Tornado. I usually just shield and punish it, run, ftilt or DK Punch it away. UpB is also very good against MK thanks to the super armor.
 

Mr.Victory07

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Honestly i dont really seee all the hype about the tornado. It does like 15%, and you can DI/airdodge the final hit. You can do that amount of % in two tilts
 

A2ZOMG

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I don't see how DK possibly has the advantage on MK. DK has like....no safe kill moves in this matchup. The only way he's going to be killing early in this matchup is if the MK completely screwed up his spacing on an F-smash or something dumb like that. Otherwise MK has too much control in this matchup and shouldn't have trouble racking enough damage to make up the difference between weight.

MK can attack over 2 times a second whether he's on the ground or in the air. The key is if he gets DK into the air, DK is pretty much screwed. DK only has two usable aerials, his B-air and U-air, which won't get MK off once MK starts juggling DK.

DK is a pretty big target, making him easily shieldstabbed by MK's plethora of multihit attacks not to mention the D-tilt which can be spammed like 3 times a second.

DK can't really ledgeguard MK either, since if he goes for a ledgeguard, he will just be punished by the Up-B, which can kill by the way. MK however I guess doesn't exactly have an easy time ledgeguarding DK, although his D-air from above can punish DK's Up-B, and if DK is forced to land on the stage, MK can get in a smash attack.

The two counters to MK are Snake and G&W, both who have safe kill moves against MK and outrange him. G&W in particular can ledgeguard MK and punish the Tornado in many ways, while Snake has grenades to stop MK from attacking.
 

Cyphus

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...didn't you get the memo?
Snake no longer "counters" MK, nor does G&W, lol.
MK has no counter, haha. he's as broken as Akuma in SF2.
 

Will_

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he's as broken as Akuma in SF2.
While MK has no counter, MK wishes that he could one day be as broke as SF2 Akuma. It's not even close.

And it's mostly the tornado tbh. If it wasn't for that, DK would have at least 55/45 over MK.
 

Nokonoko

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Dryn said:
That'll be enough of the ipsedixitism.
Here’s a stylistic tip. Using the term “ipse dixit” — taken to mean an assertion without proof — seems sophisticated, while saying “ipsedixitism” is a pretentious neologism.

It’s pretty clear now that there’s plenty of proof that an MK in the know can have the upper hand against DK, anyway. Brahma, Cyphus, and Salmon have all argued that successfully. ;)
 

Leprechaun_Drunk

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i'm fairly certain of this, but you can do your own testing to find out.

F-tilt goes through a NON-RISING Mach Tornado. However, if the Tornado rises at all, F-tilt will not work.
 

Doggalina

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I fought a MK the other day, and he tornado me to hell. However, I was still able to keep it close. How? By being patient. Sure, it hits you a poopilion times and hurts, but eventually diminishing returns kick in. Hopefully, you'll have hit MK in between some of those tornados. After 40 seconds or so of tornadoing me (in the beginning of the match), I had 80% and he had 50%. Considering how much more DK weighs than MK, I think we were about even after that bout of tornados.
 

Crystanium

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Here’s a stylistic tip. Using the term “ipse dixit” — taken to mean an assertion without proof — seems sophisticated, while saying “ipsedixitism” is a pretentious neologism.
That's irrelevant to the discussion. Assertions without proof should not be used, and citing Azen, just because he's a great Smasher, doesn't prove anything. I know that there are some people who look up to these guys. It looked like everyone would agree with HugS rather than Gum in a previous discussion about a month ago.

What you have mentioned after this is much better, because those people, Brahma, Cyphus, and Salmon argued Meta Knight can be a problem for Donkey Kong. (I know that this can be the case, since I was brawling with a friend of mine yesterday, and we were at Smashville. He was Meta Knight and I was Donkey Kong. I won, but it was annoying to fight Meta Knight.)
 

Master Raven

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I nominate Zero Suit Samus for the next discussion. ZSS is easily one of the most difficult characters I have to fight when I play DK.
 

HOHO420

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Her foward B outranges you, and her zapper is annoying. And she's decent off the stage. All someone has to do is Down A twice and UpB to get you back down and repeat.
 

The Unlawful Salmon

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If your MK opponent isn't hitting you with lots of Mach Tornados, he's making a pretty big strategic error. Also some MKs tend to not UpB you enough either. Which is silly since this can kill you earlier than you think, and it's great for getting DK off and keeping him trying to get back on. It's a great way for MK to gain position on you, which is the best way for MK to beat DK- gaining position on him on any stage that allows him to do so.

On the Mach Tornado:
The Mach Tornado needs to be Ftilted immediately as it's being executed. I'm not sure if DK can even use basic moves to stop it once it has fully started. I swear I've seen it get knocked out of, but it seems random. Maybe it depends on if they are pressing the B button? We should probably research the Mach Tornado more.

DK needs to counterpick Jungle Japes against D3, its his best option by far.
Yea this stage is a good counterpick stage for DK, especially vs DDD. :)

Also I've been playing vs DDD with the infinite allowed vs a friend who mains DDD, and I've found that using the DownB for spacing vs the constant attempts at chain grabbing and Ftilting works MIRACLES. The best thing about it is that if you bait one sideB, and do some damage to their shield the next time they approach you can downB which will either: push them back/break their shield, or send them up in the air for some nice Bairing. It's become so effective that he's started having to stop trying to chain grab me when he knows I can just downB him, and camp throwing goons. I recommend adding this to the DDD section, as it's crazy useful. The best part about it too is that DDD is so big that he gets hit by multiple times as it knocks him back(which makes spacing him a MUCH easier!) Plus it breaks damaged shields easy, and weakens full ones quite a bit. Try this out and tell me what you guys think! :lick:

Again if your having too much trouble vs MK pick up a secondary. ZSS has been doing good here to beat some really good MK players, and seems to work well as a counter. It's not a total 100% counter, your still going to need to work hard to win. :p

Suggestion:
I'd also like to get some good videos of each match being played out with the strategies mentioned here being implemented. We'd need some very good DK players to play vs some very good MKs, DDDs, etc. We should probably make some videos of the hardest match ups first. If I can find a friend with any recording equipment I'll help out!
 

Doggalina

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You can hit MK out of the Mach Tornado if you hit him with a dair, but you have to hit MKs body, not the nado.
Tornado's Hitbox



The red area represents the hitbox

As you can see from the diagram, (pardon the bad artwork) Metaknight is completely vulnerable from above. I've tested, and every single character's D-air can knock Metaknight from above! With Wolf, Ness, Snake, Ike, Diddy, Ivy, and Charzard, it's better to use their N-air instead. Special moves that go downward can also be used in this fashion.

If Metaknight tries to juggle you from below with the tornado, don't airdodge! Do a D-air!
That's from this thread. It's definitely one of my favorites on Smashboards.
 

Ripple

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we need brahma to update this, I'm pretty sure we can move on
 

Hixxy

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DK needs to counterpick Jungle Japes against D3, its his best option by far.
If any chain grabbing character works on their timing (they can learn the proper timing during a 3 stock match), they can chain grab you off of the main platform and into the clap trap, making chain grabs a possible death. Because of this, Jungle Japes only works as a counter pick if the D3 is unfamiliar with the stage.

For the MK Tornado, I usually get out of repeated tornadoes via a Nair/Dair into the top of the tornado. It can take a bit of practice to get the hang of it, though. My personal experience with the Meta Knight-Donkey Kong match up has been 40-60 in Meta Knight's favor.

EDIT: I don't know if Cyphus is referring to me, but I was referring to the entire match up.
 

Rejjae

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DK can Up-B through the tornado if you time it right, too early and they'll simply clash, too late and you get interupted.

DK can use uptilt to clash with glide attack and immediately Dsmash (doesn't work some times)

DK can use bair to clash with glide attack higher up and catch MK with a nair or another bair on the way down

DK can chaingrab MK with dthrow up to around 30% and finish with ftilt, so aim to grab early on each stock to bring MK to 40%
 

Cyphus

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Austin, TX
DK can Up-B through the tornado if you time it right, too early and they'll simply clash, too late and you get interupted.
you dont "time" DK's UpB into MK's UpB..his is instant..you would have to UpB before he does, and then he does his (for no reason) a set distance away and leans into you at the right moment. In other words, you're wrong for even suggesting this.
DK can use uptilt to clash with glide attack and immediately Dsmash (doesn't work some times)
if it doesn't work "some times" than its not reliable to use.

DK can use bair to clash with glide attack higher up and catch MK with a nair or another bair on the way down
this scenario wont happen against good MKs
DK can chaingrab MK with dthrow up to around 30% and finish with ftilt, so aim to grab early on each stock to bring MK to 40%
what are you smoking?
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OK I THINK WE'RE DONE MK DISCUSSION
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