DK Character Matchup Discussion

[HOHO420]

Another thing to watch out for is D3 inhale. When your underneath FD or BF sometimes it brings you closer to the to stage and pulls you away from the edge. And gordos are scary too. Although easy to dodge, its a nice surprise when the first thing he pulls out is a gordo.

Funny thing happen to me when i was fighting a D3 last night and he pulled out a an item when it was turned off. He pulled out a beam sword and a piece of the dragoon. I just think its something to take into consideration.

 

[HOHO420]

Another thing to watch out for is D3 inhale. When your underneath FD or BF sometimes it brings you closer to the to stage and pulls you away from the edge. And gordos are scary too. Although easy to dodge, its a nice surprise when the first thing he pulls out is a gordo.

Funny thing happen to me when i was fighting a D3 last night, he pulled out a an item when it was turned off. He pulled out a beam sword and a piece of the dragoon. I just think its something to take into consideration.

Sorry for double posting

 

[Ripple]

items don't come out if you have items off, they come out when you have items on "none" though

against ddd you want to be using side b a lot also. the main reason is that ddd will be going for grabs the entire game so he will pretty much be shielding to cancel his run often. to a bair and then do a side b to break the shield. last night I broke my friend's shield 4 times because all he does is run>shield>grab>infinite>profit? he also doesn't learn fast. if you do manage to break their shield 2x then they might think twice before just blindly running out for a grab, which will give you some nice breathing room.

 

[Brahma]

Does anyone else have anything to contribute? I haven't played this match enough to get into too much detail on it, I just know some of the basics. If noone else has anything else, I was going to move onto Olimar.

 

[Ripple]

just move on, we know what to do against DDD

 

[Brahma]

Alright. I'll post up DDD in the next few days. On to Olimar.

Personaly, I think a good Oli is DK's second hardest match next to Dedede. Yes, Olimar is light, and also probably the easiest character to edgeguard. The hard part is twofold:

Firstly, none of your approaches are truly safe, everything can be easily shield grabbed. He is also so small that he is hard to hit. SH Bair goes right over him, and if you do Bair close enough to the ground to hit him, you get landing lag. Forget about going above him, Usmash and Uair are too good. Ftilt is easily grabbed, DownB just barely beats out grab range, but eats Fsmash or Pikmin toss.

Secondly, Pikmin toss (>B) is really good vs. DK. Due to DK's big frame, Pikmin can latch onto his body or head. DK doesn't have a good move that can be used to clear pikmin off of both his head and body. Also, his big frame means that when you have to use an attack to clear pikmin, you are highly likely to get grabbed in the lag. You can't just ignore the pikmin, as they'll do some ridiculous damage. Oli can throw pikmin about any time he wants. He can toss in between double SH Bair, shield grab the second one, and rack up ridiculous damage.

His grab combo game vs. DK is very good. Dthrow into SH Fairs is fairly simple, and does 15-20% damage depending on the pikmin. He also has advanced combos with Fair and Uair that deal from 40% up to 60% damage. If you get out of the combos, he still has the advantage as he can dash Usmash or Uair under you, UpB, or wait on the ground with grab. He can rack damage very well on DK, and his KO's aren't too bad either. Usmash kills around 130% and up, depending on the pikmin. Fsmash can kill around 150%. I'm not sure on the %, but a blue pikmin Bthrow can kill decently too.

On the up side. DK beats Oli pretty well in the air. Bair outranges Olimar's F/Bair, and if you're careful with your timing, Uair works really well to keep him up there. Fair works ok to outrange him if he's high up. Off the stage is another place DK does well. Once you get Oli off, work your Bairs and go for the edgehog. Once you get Oli off the ground, pressure him as much as possible, as this is the only place in the fight where you hold an advantage. Try to deal as much damage as possible, and if you have a chance to go for the kill, do it.

DK also KOs Oli well. Fsmash can do the job around 70%, Dsmash around 90%, Usmash 70-80%. 9wind punch kills at 45%ish, but it's hard to land. Yourbest KO move in this fight will be full charge Punch. It starts to kill around 75%, so start looking for a Fsmash, Dsmash or aerial that you can SA through.

Oli is a tough fight. He can sit back and toss pikmin at you all day, forcing you to remove them or go in to attack him, where his small size and arguably the best grab in the game makes your approach game nearly worthless. Your goal here is to get Oli in the air, where you can rack enough damage on him to get him ready for a KO. Once you get him to 60% or so, you can get the KO or at least put him far enough off the stage where you can edgeguard him well.

 

[Nicktendo]

Ive heard shorthop backair to side b is good against olimar

 

[HOHO420]

Oli has super armor as well, so maybe a charged punch wont cut it all the time.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Oli has super armor as well, so maybe a charged punch wont cut it all the time.

Just on his down+B, right? If so... I don't know, I've played lots of Olimars and I've never, ever, EVER seen them use that move defensively. That'd be awfully risky on the Oli's part. I think much more likely is that he just shields your punch and grabs. Despite the shieldpush that giant punch will afford you, Oli's grab range is just too good.

Anyway, I use grounded up+B constantly to approach in this matchup. Yes, a lot of the time you'll just get grabbed before you're anywhere near Oli, but you'll get grabbed doing almost ANYTHING and at least your up+B superarmor will barrel right through his fmsash and aerials. Other than that, just get him off the ledge and bair the **** out of him --> edgehog. And get good at ledge hugging so you can make use of your precious invincibility frames to block his tether. Go for every possible gimp you can because yeah, DK is definitely at a huge disadvantage. At least your smashes destroy him-- just pray you'll be able to land a few.

 

[skuzzel]

Just a quick note,

Oli only has a disjointed hit box directly in front of him, and directly above him. When hes on the ground at least, stay away from those spots.

 

[Brahma]

His downB superarmor can take a punch, but that just means oli just took 25% damage when he could have easily just shielded with the same result.

Nicktendo: SH Bair, >B is something I use a lot of Olimar. I find a lot of Olimars start getting comfortable spamming their grab as I land lag, so doing a >B right before you land makes the grab whiff and buries. With Oli's light weight, this can mean a free KO if you bury him at 50%.

WastingPenguins: I've messed around a lot with UpB too. Pretty much what you said. I will add a few things though. One, if you're approaching on the ground, I find that a good Oli will use grab like 90% of the time. It's fast and recovers well enough that they can whiff it and then shield/dodge. I find it's best to use up close, especially if you can get behind him.

Which brings me to another point, another thing is that DK has decent DI, and can SH Bair and land on the other side of Olimar, avoiding shieldgrab. He can still drop shield, turn, and grab, but that takes a little time, and you can quickly interrupt with a fast attack (jab, Dtilt). A lot of the time if you land on the other side of Olimar, he'll try Dsmash. BOth punch and UpB SA through this. Use UpB at low % as it racks damage, punch at KO %. It's kind of risky to do a SH Bair on Oli since it doesn't hit him on the ground and he can get under you and Usmash/UpB, but I find a lot of Oli's just wait for the shieldgrab to punish landing lag, because it's easy, effective, and he can rack damage better that way. Just watch out for the Usmash/UpB at higher % because Oli will be going for the KO.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Olimar is a pretty simple match. You can easily KO oli at 60-70%. Up-b and down-b are usefull for swatting away pikmin.Oli will rack up % quickly since DK has such a big frame. But watch out for his spike, its probably the best vs DK. Battlefiled is not a good stage to vs Olimar on, you can gett juggles around really easily. Heck, olimar can juggle you to about 50% quickly. Small stages, like smashville, brinstar, and especially Frigate, will do you good.But once you rack up damage on him, you can KO with alot simply. I once vs a double olimar team in doubles and just massacred, got 7 out of 8 KO's

 

[WastingPenguins]

Olimar is a pretty simple match. You can easily KO oli at 60-70%. Up-b and down-b are usefull for swatting away pikmin.Oli will rack up % quickly since DK has such a big frame. But watch out for his spike, its probably the best vs DK. Battlefiled is not a good stage to vs Olimar on, you can gett juggles around really easily. Heck, olimar can juggle you to about 50% quickly. Small stages, like smashville, brinstar, and especially Frigate, will do you good.But once you rack up damage on him, you can KO with alot simply. I once vs a double olimar team in doubles and just massacred, got 7 out of 8 KO's

Do the Olimars you're playing know about the grab button?

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Do the Olimars you're playing know about the grab button?

Yes actually. Every olimar knows to spam throw, but luckily only up throw will be killing DK, at pretty high percents too. And it was doubles and a little hectic and FF is on, so its not hard to KO them quickly

 

[skuzzel]

Yes actually. Every olimar knows to spam throw, but luckily only up throw will be killing DK, at pretty high percents too. And it was doubles and a little hectic and FF is on, so its not hard to KO them quickly

UHHHHH BULLL ****

Ever done a back throw with a blue pikmen?

It has A LOT more knock back than your back throw.

Even considering that, his grab's arn't good because they can kill you (although that is nice).

They are good because they have a COMPLETLEY INSANE range to lag ratio. He has a disjointed grab that goes for seemingly miles and has almost NO LAG. And he can combo out of them easily. God forbid you have a pikmen latched on you and you get grabed and then comboed, that's eaisly 50-60% damage in about 4 seconds.

Make sure to over B to break shield's whenever possible, and always try to move the match closer to the edge, and dont worry about diminishing your moves, just get him off the edge and gimp him.

Don't lose confindence. He WILL outdamage you, but remember that you can kill him at 50 so he should be the one feeling pressured to catch up.

Overall I would say the match is a *****
But your weight and his recovery make it either an even match up or a slight advantage to oli.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Mr. X, top Olimar in socal, on dk vs olimar

About the Olimar vs DK matchup, I believe it's 60-40 or 70-30 in DK's favor. I've played a few good DK's, and to be honest my heart races more when I see them pick DK than when I see marth or even meta-knight (a common feared matchup for Olimars).

Olimar's biggest advantage against DK is that he can rack up a nice 50-60% from a 0 percent grab combo. Other than that though, DK has him outmatched in a lot of ways.

One of Olimar's biggest strengths is his lengthy smashes and disjointed hitboxes. DK's tilts and smashes, however, compltetly outprioritize them. Also, DK is so strong and fast enough to connect that he can knock Oli off the stage at fairly low percents. His heaviness makes him last much longer than most other characters, making it harder for Oli to finish him off becuase oftentimes he needs to use his finishing moves to get the percent high enough on DK to kill him. Oftentimes I find myself so scared to approach a good DK that I just have to sit back and throw pikmin for a bit to get my bearings becuase DK can be very difficult to approach. His down-B also ***** becuase the range on it is ridiculous in this game, making running grabs and running upsmashes hard to pull off.

Also, I forget what you guys call it but when DK f-throws, runs off the stage, and throws the person into the stage is an instant death for Oli, meaning any grab at a medium to high percent is an easy stock.

 

[The Unlawful Salmon]

Olimar has 2 options: Camping Pikmin, or rushing you down for a large combo which I believe is usually the superior approach. DK can really make Olimar sweat it out though, since this is a classic match-up of, "I'm big and heavy as hell, and your small and light."

I've had a bit of trouble with Olimar, but after you learn to avoid his ranges and how to punish his approaches he goes down easier than you'd think. Also the CSS is absolutely amazing along with any other ways of gimping of Olimar. I think this could be 60-40 in DK's favor.

Also I seem to find people online who find fox tough to beat with DK... maybe I've just never played a really good fox, but isn't he just an easier version of Falco?

Non-related-note-about-that-list-thing: I think DK has an (~10%?) advantage over Falco once you get the match down solid. If your having trouble dodging the lasers you need more experience in this match-up, as dodging them consistently should almost be second nature. Besides the standard Uair(easily air dodgable) his only two real kill moves are possibly spiking you which is a bit tough to pull off since your not getting knocked off the stage all the time, and his biggest kill move is his Fsmash. If you put 100% effort into avoiding it like the plague you may win even if your outmatched simply due to how crazy long DK's heavy body lives and how early Falco can die.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

salmon, fox is definitely the harder of the two, and from the falco mains i've talked to, you're almost right on that matchup. once you learn to break outta the cg its pretty even.

but on topic, olimar dies at 42 from a 9 wind punch from the middle of fd with no di, that can really screw him up

 

[Brahma]

IMO camping is really the superior Olimar strat in this fight. DK can't really safely approach him without being grabbed, and meanwhile Oli is tossing pikmin and punishing DK when he tries to remove them. A good Oli can get anywhere from 20% to 50% from a Dthrow on large characters.

 

[The Unlawful Salmon]

Maybe it would be better if they used a combination of camping you, and then rushing you down in the middle of when they need to flee. I don't find their camping me as effective as you get a free charged punch, and have lots of free time to figure out/mind game them into getting through their defenses. I guess we should focus on how to consistently get into a camping Olimar's range?

If you can get this part of the match down I'd say your doing well, since it's the first big step to breaking down Olimar's game vs DK.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

how to get around camping as dk


vs small people
bair > ftilt/aa combo/grab

bair > headbutt

powershields and ftilts

downb space (downb has more range than olis grab)

upb

sh armor punch

camping really isn't a problem offline, because dk's bair give him a great approach, especially when coupled with his ftilt/specials

 

[Brahma]

Part of the problem with a camping Olimar is most of those approaches don't work as well. Bair straight from SH goes right over Oli's head, and if the Oli is smart, he'll be using dash Usmash underneath you when you do this. If you do BAir later in the SH, it can be shield grabbed.

Bair headbutt is nice, as it punishes a shield grab attempt, but your initial Bair is still unsafe.

Punch is risky to throw out by itself, because of the fact that if Oli decides to grab (which he will a lot if you approach from the ground, since it outranges everything but DownB) it will beat out your SA. If you SH and throw it, it will go over Oli's head if you do it too soon, but if you wait a second it works pretty well, just be careful not to get grabbed after.

DownB outranges his standing grab, but barely. A problem with DownB is that when you do it Oli can throw 2-3 pikmin on you, which DownB won't kill.

This is probably one of the worst parts of the Oli match. The whole time you're trying to deal with moving in his range, trying to hit him without being shield grabbed, and Olimar is tossing pikmin on you. So now you still have to worry about getting through Olimar's awesome camping game, and at the same time have to deal with the pikmin before they rack too much damage. If you stop to do a tilt/aerial to clear pikmin, a good Oli should be all over you. DK can stand to take some damage, but if you ignore a few pikmin through the match, you'll definitely feel it. Plus, if Oli grabs you the pikmin will continue to rack damage, and Oli can combo you for 20%-50% damage on top of that. Oli can rack damage on DK like whoa, and he isn't too shabby at kills either. All it takes is an Usmash, fsmash, or Blue pikmin Bthrow at higher % (120% or so).

 

[Mr.Victory07]

Easy way to gimp oliamr: Cargo-down throw near the edge to edgehog, works well

 

[itsthebigfoot]

on camping olimars, let him throw his pikmin, kill them with any one of your many pikmin killing moves, then rush when he plucks more

 

[skuzzel]

Easy way to gimp oliamr: Cargo-down throw near the edge to edgehog, works well

Uhh, at this point we kinda know how to kill the ******* , it's damaging him thats the problem lol.

on camping olimars, let him throw his pikmin, kill them with any one of your many pikmin killing moves, then rush when he plucks more

Yeah, for sure, if he spams too much just kill them. It's not hard to kill them mid flight for no damage. Once he starts to get down to 3-4 pikmen he should start to feel some pressure. He will stop throwing pikmen, and he will also be unable to throw out all his moves over and over again like normal. Most of Oli's will try to run and get more, try to prevent him or punish him.

One note, a good Oli can make pikmen killing a bit harder by mixing it up. There's the normal on the ground toss, then the mid flight toss with no forward momentum (normally done with a b stick) , then you have the toss with forward momentum caused by flicking forward on the analog stick. Heck some times they throw out F smashes just to mess with your head so be aware of that.

Each has it's own timing, and angle, couple this with diffirent speeds for diffirent pikmen and you can see where complications arise.

Although with practice it become's a whole lot easier.

 

[Master Raven]

I personally would like to see a matchup against Meta Knight very soon after this one. I know DK is supposedly one of the better characters to use against MK but I have a tough time approaching him properly.

 

[Will_]

The JC-UpB(jump-canceled up special) is a godsend in this matchup. Runs right through tossed pikmin and goes through Oli's shield, doing damage and gets you inside.

as for the MK matchup, I don't even know if it's an advantage for DK anymore. 55/45 at the most.

 

[Kit-Tsukasa]

so someone please tell me why CSS is legal? Most characters have a hard time recovering from it (because of the number of vertical recoveries and stupid ledges that gimp characters), especially on stages like Final or Lylat Cruise.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

We should really move on to the next matchup, this matchup has been up for over 2 weeks @_@

 

[Ripple]

so someone please tell me why CSS is legal? Most characters have a hard time recovering from it (because of the number of vertical recoveries and stupid ledges that gimp characters), especially on stages like Final or Lylat Cruise.

what is CSS?

and which match up should we move on to? IKe or MK?

 

[Master Raven]

I vote for MK.

Tsukasa, CSS is legal because it's escapable. I and several opponents I've used it on have escaped it numerous times before.

Ripple, CSS = Cargo Stage Spike.

 

[BBQ°]

Pikachu would be interesting. Pikachu is very good against DK and I need some help in against him.

 

[JhMS]

I think we should do Meta,because of the huge number of meta players.

 

[Linguini]

I think we know that olimar is and even matchup vs dk, ive played it at almost every tournament vs many olimars and it seems pretty winnable for both.

DK's down-b is god vs him lol, i love the sound of like 30 pikmin dying when i do it haha

 

[Ripple]

there is no way its even, they just spam f-smash then dash grab, throw pikmin or up smash. you have to use a falling bair to hit them, which can be shield grabbed. and side b to break shields is predicitble and can just be up smashed out of shield

 

[Brahma]

When you take time to kill the pikmin, Olimar can easily dash shield. Also, Pikmin pluck is very fast. It's no problem at all for Oli to get new pikmin, so trying to kill them all isn't really a viable strategy. Also, DownB only kills pikmin that have released you and are on the ground.


Moving on. MK next. Discuss.

 

[Nicktendo]

I hate MK with DK, I really don't think DK is a counter like everyone makes it out to be.. but maybe I'm just going about it wrong. What are you suposed to do?

 

[Emblem Lord]

lol.

DK vs MK is not in DK's favor at all. It's even at best but most likely it's 60/40.

MK has too many options with great rushdown and pressure game. DK has range, but if MK blocks anything from DK he is gonna feel some pain. And it's easy for MK to keep DK in the air and rack up damage and he has no real answer to the whornado.

I heard from a friend of mine that BUM also thinks MK has slight advantage.

 

[Ripple]

I really think this isn't too bad of a match up. d smash is your best smash that is an absolute must in the match up along with grounded up b. down smash may kill as early as 70% but if they have very good DI they could live until 110% f smash is a must not as MK will never be hit by it. always stay in the air and keep bairing. I am convinced that staying in the air is better against meta. otherwise MK will auto cancel all his aerials and can do up b out of shield

 

[Emblem Lord]

60/40 isn't bad. It's just slight advantage.

Honestly all DK has is the fact that he can kill MK early. He outranges him, but if MK blocks anything from DK other then a FF Bair, DK gets punished. DB stops ground approaches, but then MK can rely more on his B move approaches.

It's mostll MK's speed that really gives him the edge. If he were slower he could more easily shut down his approach with Down b and force him to go into the air to approach where he could keep him out with his range.

But MK has good rushdown and solid approach options, so it's not that simple.