Brahma
Smash Journeyman
Alright, since Ripple is unable to update the old character matchup thread as often as he would like, I will be taking over. As a lot of the information in the old board is outdated, I figure we might as well start out fresh.
I am choosing to format this by doing one character per week, so that we can fully analyze the matchup at once, and we don't have little snippets of information about the matchup all over the thread that are hard to find organize. After the week is over (and some matchups may take longer than a week) I'll update this first post with all the relevant information in the matchup. It's a format that works pretty well for a lot of the other character boards and I think it would greatly benefit us.
What I'd like to see is discussion of the character's strengths/weaknesses against DK, ways to get around their strengths and avoid DK's weaknesses. Counter stages are always welcome too.
I figure we work from the top tiers down, as that is where people are having more trouble with their matchups.
I am choosing to format this by doing one character per week, so that we can fully analyze the matchup at once, and we don't have little snippets of information about the matchup all over the thread that are hard to find organize. After the week is over (and some matchups may take longer than a week) I'll update this first post with all the relevant information in the matchup. It's a format that works pretty well for a lot of the other character boards and I think it would greatly benefit us.
What I'd like to see is discussion of the character's strengths/weaknesses against DK, ways to get around their strengths and avoid DK's weaknesses. Counter stages are always welcome too.
I figure we work from the top tiers down, as that is where people are having more trouble with their matchups.
Snake (pages 1-3)
Snake vs. DK is a fairly close matchup, it can be argued either way, and ultimately it comes down to player skill.
Snake's advantages:
-Tilts (Ftilt and Utilt) that rival DK's range.
-Grenades that DK has some trouble avoiding with his large hitbox.
-Grenade counter (dropping a grenade and shielding) against DK's tilt and Bair.
-Utilt can outrange DK's Bair approach.
-Dair and Nair is easier to hit on DK than smaller characters.
-Nikita edgeguards.
DK's advantages:
-His tilts have about the same range and speed as Snake's, but Snake's hit harder.
-DownB outranges Snake's tilts and beats out mortar slide.
-Bair cancels the mortar itself.
-Cargo Stage Spike (CSS) works very well on Snake.
-DK can edgeguard Snake very well.
Overview
First thing you have to do in this fight is get past Snake's projectiles game. Snake will be most likely tossing grenades and sliding mortars your way. DownB will beat out mortar slide if you can prepare for it, but if not you can jump and Bair the mortar as you approach, or Punch through it with SA. Cooked grenades are somewhat of a problem, if Snake is throwing them so they blow up just as they reach you, short hop airdodge (SHAD) is a reliable way to move through them. If you try to catch grenades, be aware that Snake can force you to drop them with grenade strip, so they drop before you can throw them.
If Snake gets close, he will try his Ftilt and Utilt. Both can be outspaced by DownB, or you can use Punch to SA through. You can always try to beat him to the punch with your own tilts, but Snake will win in this exchange a lot because of his disjointed hitboxes. Be careful approaching with Bair, as Snake can beat Bair approach with disjointed Utilt. If you're right up in Snake's face, expect the jab combo, which is slightly faster than your own. You can shield the last hit and punish at lower % even if the first two hit. Watch out for Snake's grab game, if you roll into him you can eat a Fsmash, if you roll away he can tech chase with Dair.
Once you get him in the air, Snake is easily juggles. Utilt at low percent works well. He can airdodge out, so be ready with Jab, grab, UpB, or DownB to punish his airdodge. Snake doesn't have a lot of options in the air defensively. if his back is to you, expect a Bair, which has a lot of range and can trade hits with your Bair. Also watch out for Nair as he falls if he is close to level with you. Another trick a Snake may try if he is very high up is to drop C4 and explode it, so watch out for this as well and get out of the way. DK has somewhat of the same problem once he gets airborne, as he has no real defense from below. Snake will usually try to get at you with Usmash, Utilt, and Uair. All can be airdodged, mortar can be Baired. Just be careful not to airdodge through the attack only to land on a mine/c4 or other trap Snake has set. Don't try to attack on the way down, as Snake can easily beat your attack with Utilt. Also be careful of a Nair into you.
If you get Snake near the edge, CSS works well. With Snake off the stage, the match is highly in DK's favor. All Snake can do is Cypher up, which DK has no problem spiking with Fair or Dair. If they are below the edge, you can always try SideB too. The only real defense Snake has to this is try to get back as quickly as possible, or to let go of Cypher and use C4 to give himself another Cypher, which just resets and gives DK another chance at edgeguard.
When DK goes off the edge, Snake has a few tricks to edgeguard with. One is the Nikita. He can shoot this and drop it on top of DK's head as he recovers. There isn't really a good way around this. If he hits you far out, just try to DI towards the stage, or if you still have your second jump left, you can try to double jump and airdodge through it, but since DK is so big it still might hit. If Snake drops it near the edge, be ready to tech off the side in case it blows you into the stage. Another common edgeguard is mortar. Snake will fire of a few mortars on the edge, and if you get hit with one under the edge it stage spikes. Be ready with the tech here if you get hit. DK can stall a little bit in his UpB before grabbing the edge too if you need to avoid a mortar.
Once DK gets the edge, Snake will continue his assualt with Mines, C4, grenades, and Nikita. A common trap is to drop a grenade a roll away from the edge, then roll back and fire nikita. If you stay on the edge, nikita hits you, if you roll, grenade (or a mine) will hit you. The best thing to do his is drop from the ledge and jump and airdodge through nikita.
Overall the fight is fairly even. The toughest part lies in navigating through Snake's projectiles then carfully outspacing him until you get him off the edge, then edgeguard him for the win.
Stages to avoid
-FD, Smashville, any flat stage gives Snake an edge as he is ground based and can camp better.
Stages to counterpick
-Any stages that force Snake to move, his approach and movement isn't that good, and once he's in the air he's a much easier target. I find Distant Planet/Hanenbow works well for me, but not all tournaments allow them. Delfino is also decent vs. Snake.
Falco (pages 2-4
Falco is another tough match for DK. His long range game is good, and once you get past that he has a chain throw that can rack up damage. He KO's decently, and has a nasty spike. On the upside, DK outranges Falco in the air and on the ground, if he can get past lasers and shine that is.
Falco's advantages:
-Laser spam is hard for DK to deal with and approach.
-Shine up close can be tough to deal with.
-Chain throw works from roughly 0-40%. After this he still has mixups and mindgames for you.
-Dair spike off the side can get early gimp kills if you're not careful.
DK's advantages:
-Range. DK outranges Falco in the air, and on the ground (aside from lasers and shine)
-Power. DK can get kills on Falco as early as 40% with headbutt > 9-wind punch and CSS. You can KO him with most smashes and Punch around 60%-90%.
-Weight. Falco has some good kills, but DK is also very heavy and can survive longer than most characters.
OverviewFirst thing you'll have to deal with is Falco's long range game. If you can, try to start out with a controller port that places you near him at the start of the match to avoid immediate lasers at the beginning and solidifying Falco's long range game. You can try to SH airdodge single lasers. But if he SHDL's your SHAD will get hit with the second hit, as well as a third ground laser if he attempts it. Tilts and Bair can't cancel it either. A well timed roll after shielding the first is a good option from far away, but will get hit by a third ground laser. Another option is to FJ and airdodge if necesary. The only problem here is DK is vulnerable from below.
Once you get past lasers, shine is one of Falco's best keep out moves, and it can be difficult to get around. If you can shield it, you can punish Falco with a tilt, dash grab, or pressure with DownB. If you perfect shield it, I think you might be able to get Fsmash. If he SH's and uses it to shut down your aerial approach, you can SHAD through it, or again shield it on the ground.
Once DK gets inside his range, Falco is much easier. DK outranges everything from Falco on the ground or in the air up close, except for shine. If you get too close though, especially with aerials, expect to get grabbed.
Dealing with the chainthrow. Once Falco grabs you at early %, he will usually Dthrow chain you until roughly 30-40% or so. This is guaranteed unless Falco messes up the timing, which a good Falco won't, so just be patient. You can try to mash out, but be careful not to hit jump, as if you get grabbed in the air after hitting jump, you lose your air jump, and won't be able to survive if he manages to get you to the ledge and Dair spike you. Once he gets you to about 30-40%, he will either try to continue to chainthrow, which you can break out of with double jump, or >B, which will stall your descent, making Falco miss the grab and hitting him in the lag for a bury. If you land a headbutt here and have a 9-wind punch stored up, it can KO Falco at 40% (so if he's at 30% then you bury him, it should kill on most stages). However, if Falco knows you're going to try and break out, he can boost Usmash, Dair, FJ Fair, or shine to hit you out. All of these are airdodgeable, but if you airdodge he can grab you again. So he has a decent mixup between grab and attack, even after the chainthrow stops being guaranteed. Just be patient, try to mash out early, but don't waste your 2nd jump. After 30% is your chance to start breaking out.
Once you beat Falco's range, try to stick close to Falco, right outside of his range but still in yours. A lot of Falco's throw out shine in pressure situations to get people off of them, but if you shield smartly this shouldn't be an issue. If he lands a hit, expect and Utilt or two to aerial to follow. You can use punch to SA through any of his attacks. Falco KO's easy. you can get a kill off of Fsmash around 60% or so, Usmash around 70ish, and Dsmash kills around 90% IIRC.
Try to stay to Falco's side. He has Usmash and Uair to approach DK from below, where DK is most vulnerable. Be careful with your airdodges so you don't airdodge an Uair fakeout and eat a DJ Dair or fastfall into Usmash. Try to recover to the ledges if possible, as they are pretty safe for DK here. Just be careful of Dair spike and you'll be ok.
Even at lower percents you can get a kill because DK's edgeguard game beats Falco bad. Most Falco's will try and go for the ledge with SideB to avoid the lengthy and vulnerable startup on UpB. Try and anticipate the SideB and Bair him out, you'll have to be quick, or stay on the stage and Dsmash/Punch. Don't always assume Falco will go for the ledge. Falco's sideB spikes, so sometimes they will use it above the stage to try and spike you when you go to block the ledge. If you use your second jump and get spiked, you might not be able to make it back with DK's UpB. Falco will inevitably have to use UpB for recovery sometimes. If he is below the stage without a second jump, anticipate him using this, and you can hit him out with Fair spike, Bair him under/into the stage, or try to >B spike him. It can also be ledgehogged fairly easy.
His best KO's are Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, and Bair. Fsmash is more powerful the closer it is. It has decent range, but nowhere near DK's range, and the tip is rather weak. Usmash can kill around 160% or so, so watch for him to dash this into you. When you're at 150%+, be careful how you come back down to the stage to avoid this. Dsmash send you horizontal, so make sure you DI up and you should be ok up until 200%ish. BAir is strong, but easily outranged. Just make sure you don't do anything laggy in the air like Fair when you're at KO% (150%s) as Falco can get up high and hit you with this rather quickly.
When you come back to the stage, you shouldn't have to work too much. Your UpB should outprioritize most of his moves, including Dair. Beware though, that he can Dair spike you through UpB if he comes in directly on top of you. So don't mess around on the edge too much, get back and get back on stage.
Stages to avoid:
-Bridge of Eldin, FD, Smashville, Halberd, Japes, basically anything long and flat where Falco can laser camp and make it difficult to approach.
Stages to counterpick
-Any stage that has platforms, slopes, obstacles, etc. that can be used to help get past lasers. Also, having edges where you can CSS are nice as Falco is very susceptible to early % kills this way. Stages like Delfino and Halberd also have edges that Falco has to be precise with his SideB to the ledge, so some Falco's may opt to only do UpB on these stages. Some good anti-Falco Stages:
-Luigi's Mansion: The pillars prevent long range laser spam, and it has a pretty high ceiling so you don't have to worry about Usmash/Uair kills. Try to punish Falco with Uair/Usmash if he starts trying to destroy the pillars.
-Lylat Cruise: The tilting stage can hinder his laser game. It can also break up or help his chain grab depending on how it's tilted. The stage tilt also makes his recovery a lot more difficult. CSS works very well here, if Falco goes under the stage, he has a very tough time getting back. Just be careful that the stage tilt doesn't mess up your own recovery.
-Frigate Orpheon: This stage can be tough for DK because of the non-grabbable edge on the right, but Falco has an even tougher time with recovery than you do. Sometimes a simple falling Cargo Dtos off the right side will get you the kill. Try to stay in the center, as it means Falco can't laser camp and has to approach you where you can shield and retaliate. Just be careful not to let Falco have the center, as he can laser camp a bit from there and it gets tough to approach him. He can also chain throw better going up a slant.
-Norfair: The small platforms limit his CG and laser spam some. Just be careful because his aerial game is decent through the platforms. However, DK should be able to outrange anything Falco does in the air, so it shouldn't be too much of a problem. DK's huge range usually covers the whole platform, so control Falco on the ground, get him off the side, and finish him.
-Rainbow Cruise: This stage shuts down CG and laser spam, and forces Falco into the air, where DK easily outranges and beats him. Just be carful of your own recovery and you'll be fine.
-Green Greens: DK can control the stage well with his range. Falco can laser spam from one side to the other, but the blocks will usually interfere enough wher eyou can use them to help an approach. Close sides mean early % kills for DK. Like 20% early.
King Dedede (pages 4-6)
Dedede is probably the most used DK counterpick you will see, so it's a good thing to know how to beat him. His infinite grab alone can win the match for him, and if you happen to run into a Dedede who can do this consistently from 0%-death, I would suggest keeping a secondary who is good against DDD. Even without the infinite, he still does pretty well against DK.
Dedede's advantages
-Infinite throw can take DK from 0% to KO.
-Chain throw can rack up damage on DK as well.
-Dthrow has some nasty tech options.
-Gordos can be difficult to deal with.
-Ftilt range is annoying.
-Can be hard to edgeguard.
-U/Dair hake priority over DK aerials.
DK's advantages
-DK can get good reliable kills on Dedede.
-Dedede is a good size/weight for combos with Utilt/Uair/Usmash.
Overview
First thing first. Whenever you're playing a Dedede, assume that they can and will grab you at every available opportunity. As such you're going to have to keep your spacing game tight. Always hit your Bairs and Ftilts at the tip. If you get in too deep, you will be shield grabbed. If your opponent gets overly shield grab happy, a SH Bair, >B can wear down or even break a shield, and if they grab too soon, it will bury them. Don't expect this to work more than a few times though. If it gets predictable, they can spot dodge/roll the headbutt and punish you in the lag.
If you happen to get grabbed, you're in for a ride. If they can standing infinite, they will, and there's nothing you can do about it except pray they mess up while you hold shield and mash away from him. If they chaingrab you, they will usually do so to the edge then Dtilt you away. Make sure you don't mash jump and lose your DJ because you may need it to recover. Be careful not to tech into Dedede, as if you tech into him to escape the chainthrow, he gets a free D or Fsmash.
Dedede's love to spotdodge/roll a lot, and his roll/dodge is good. Jab combo works well to punish it, as does Down and UpB.
A little farther back than grab range, you'll have to contest with D3's Filt. It's just as fast as yours, with a little more range and priority. Your Ftilt can cancel this, but IMO it's easier to either shield or try to jump over it with Bair. Just be careful about jumping into Dedede as you can either eat an Utilt or get shield grabbed.
At far range you have to deal with Waddle Dee/Doo/Gordo. Waddle Dee/Doo are easy to Ftilt, Bair, or Dash attack through, so they aren't much of a problem. Just make sure if there's a Doo out (the eyeball one) to avoid it or KO it, as it can shock you with electricity and give D3 some free hits. Don't get too comfortable canceling out WDees, always be on your guard. If you try to Bair anticipating a WDee and a Gordo comes out, you're boned. What I try to do is jump towards D3, Bair if he tosses a WDee, if it's a Gordo, airdodge. Sounds easy enough but it requires some fast reflexes. Another thing I don't see many people do vs. Dedede is use his WDees to recover stale moves. Every time you hit a WDee, you deplete that move and gain strength back on your other ones. So if you take a second to jab or Tilt a WDee, you can gain some extra knockback/damage on Bair or your smashes.
In the air, D3 can be some trouble. Dedede has his own double Bair, but it has much less range than yours and lags a lot more after the second. You can block the first Bair and then Utilt/Dsmash, but you have to be quick or you may eat the second Bair. Perfect shield helps a lot here. If you try approaching him from above or below, his Uair and Dair both take priority over DK's attacks and they hurt. At low % you can usually Uair combo him well, but once you get to mid and high % he can usually break out with a jump and/or Dair.
After you get him off the stage, your usual Bair and Fair hits work about the same. Your Bair will outrange Dedede's, but you can be hit out by a well spaced Fair from Dedede. Be careful about coming in from above or below so as not to eat the Uair/Dair. Also, watch out for inhale. Sometimes Dedede will inhale near the edge, then spit you out under the stage. Don't waste your DJ. When he spits you under the stage, DI towards the edge. You shoot out and then up after the star spit, so when you start to fall, use your DJ then UpB to the edge an you'll hopefully make it. If Dedede uses his UpB, he's very vulnerable. If he doesn't cancel it, you can get to where he will land, then jump over the stars and punch, or SideB then punch. Just make sure to stand to the side and not under him. If you do end up under him, you can SA punch through, but it's best to be to the side and jumpover the stars to avoid damage. If he cancels, dash in and feel free to hit him with whatever. I recommend >B.
Stages to avoid
-Frigate Orpheon: Dedede can recover here much better than DK can, so don't give him that advantage.
-Stages with walkoff edges (BoE, Castle Siege, parts of Delfino): Dedede can KO DK off the side easy with chaingrabs.
Other than that, DK doesn't have many stage weaknesses. Just avoid anything you feel uncomfortable with.
Stages to counterpick
-Rainbow Cruise: This stage keeps the fight moving so you don't have to worry about infinites and chainthrows as much. DDD and DK are fairly evenly matched in the air, so RC makes it more of an even matchup.
-Battlefield: Platforms help DK here, as they allow DK to keep D3 off the ground and away from his grabs.
