Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[Earthbound360]

I like your list Draconoa. There are a few things I'd switch up, but a lot of it seems pretty good to me.

 

[Noa.]

Concerning the top and high tiers, who do you think differently on?

 

[ORANGEtheGORILLa]

Concerning the top and high tiers, who do you think differently on?

YEP. ITS BEEN FOREVER IM BACK. and so is ness. he is defintaly top 15 and i cant say anything else

 

[Pazx]

I can't see Doc being a worse matchup than Mario, and I've used both extensively. They would/should arguably be about the same in terms of matchup difficulty, and that's not considering how FLUDD absolutely destroys our recovery.

@ Luco it's been awhile since I watched it so no questions, but congrats again on your win

edit oops wrong thread but blah

 

[Noa.]

I can't see Doc being a worse matchup than Mario, and I've used both extensively. They would/should arguably be about the same in terms of matchup difficulty, and that's not considering how FLUDD absolutely destroys our recovery.

@ Luco it's been awhile since I watched it so no questions, but congrats again on your win

edit oops wrong thread but blah

Doc's biggest weakness is his lack of mobility. He has a lot of trouble getting in on characters. However ness is also not mobile. Ness has pretty poor defensive tools and is not too good at keeping people out. Plus Ness usually relies on outpacing people in damage. Doc keeps up with us in that regard.

Mario on the other hand trades greater mobility for worse damage on hit and worse kill power. This is very key and comes into play against Ness. Mario and Ness are pretty even in neutral, but it's hard for Mario to keep pace with ness in terms of both damage and kills.

 

[Earthbound360]

I like your list Draconoa. There are a few things I'd switch up, but a lot of it seems pretty good to me.

Sheik and Diddy join Sonic's tier, Rosalina is IMO (though I probably differ from others) not really a bad matchup.

Other things I think are that MM isn't a good matchup (not sure of the numbers) and I think I'd place Mac in the same tier as the big boys.

Though I have to be honest with you, and I mean this with respect, but I do think you tend to overrate Ness' matchups a slight bit, I think he's got more bad matchups than you make him out to have.

On the note of Doc and Mario, also remember that we can magnet cancel Mario's approach, but not Doc's. However, Doc's recovery is delightfully abusable

 

[Noa.]

I would agree. I'm probably overrating Ness a bit. I mean he has more than two bad matchups. I'm just not sure if who yet. There are so many characters I haven't played, and so many characters that I haven't found a good player for.

I do think very highly of Ness. It's probably influenced by the community I compete in. Everyone I play against tells me that he's great and that their impression of him increases after watching. Ok obviously hyperbole but meh...

Everyone in my scene thinks Ness is amazing.

 

[j3lly]

Sorry to steer this a bit off topic but how do you deal with characters with physical projectiles? I find that Megaman, Samus, Link, etc. are the characters I have the most trouble with. Ness doesn't have the greatest approach options. PK Fire gets beaten, PKT2 takes too long and me weaving through missles, metal blades and bombs usually ends up with Link's sword or a Samus Fair in the face.

 

[Luco]

I find characters that spam projectiles are a massive pain too haha. I try to weave into midrange, avoid whatever they do there and space Fairs/Nairs to get them into disadvantage. The good thing being that once you do, they'll stop spamming the damn things.

A couple things to note though; we can heal from Link's/TL's bombs as well as Samus' bombs and Megaman's crash/sticky bomb thing (I think?)

 

[PKBeam]

Oh if the Samus is spamming strong Side-Bs at 120% then bat them back and insta kill.

 

[Earthbound360]

I've been attempting to power shield out of dash to help approach people who abuse physical projectiles like that. I feel like that might be our best option. Get used to that timing.

 

[Noa.]

Just walking and shielding is best. When you dash you can't shield for the initial frames. Idk how long the period is, but it's long enough that you will notice it if you try to dash and shield too much.

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Does anybody know how King Dedede fares against Sonic? The little blue menace won't sit still for a second and dances circles around me.

 

[PSIBoy]

Does anybody know how King Dedede fares against Sonic? The little blue menace won't sit still for a second and dances circles around me.

No offense, but why you asking about King Dedede vs Sonic on a Ness thread? I don't mean to come off as rude saying this, but shouldn't you be asking about King Dedede vs Sonic on Dedede's forum?

 

[Yink]

Does anybody know how King Dedede fares against Sonic? The little blue menace won't sit still for a second and dances circles around me.

Since this is the Ness board, we won't know as much as The Dedede board (http://smashboards.com/forums/king-dedede.448/) or the Sonic board (http://smashboards.com/forums/sonic.413/). Feel free to stop by these boards and ask them!

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Didn't know this was on the Ness board. Sorry.

 

[Muh Nado]

I'm having a lot of trouble with characters who are good in the air. It's even worse if they have projectiles and there good in the air. Recently mainly it's been Lucina, Marth, Yoshi's and Samus. Anyone got any tips? After over 600 wins and 300 losses, I know a lot about matchups, but I still come across some players who, when matched up with my playstyle, can utterly dominate me, usually with these 4 characters, and a predominant focus on an air game. Despite usually dominating much of the lesser players on For Glory like most people, and learning the intricacies of certain matchups so well the whole match is entirely predictable, I'm still faced with the odd competitor who flat out demolishes me. Instead of presuming that these people have 90% win ratio's and are practically pro's, I'd rather assume their playstyle and characters counter me completely.

 

[revengeska]

I'm having a lot of trouble with characters who are good in the air. It's even worse if they have projectiles and there good in the air. Recently mainly it's been Lucina, Marth, Yoshi's and Samus. Anyone got any tips? After over 600 wins and 300 losses, I know a lot about matchups, but I still come across some players who, when matched up with my playstyle, can utterly dominate me, usually with these 4 characters, and a predominant focus on an air game. Despite usually dominating much of the lesser players on For Glory like most people, and learning the intricacies of certain matchups so well the whole match is entirely predictable, I'm still faced with the odd competitor who flat out demolishes me. Instead of presuming that these people have 90% win ratio's and are practically pro's, I'd rather assume their playstyle and characters counter me completely.

Samus is a bit of a surprise to me. My roommate mains Samus, and while he may not be on the level of the guys you're playing, he doesn't seem that great in the air. His moves aren't bad, they just don't seem quick. I wouldn't want to be under him in the air, but otherwise I'd challenge him in the air all day.

It just feels like a timing issue to me. My general I-don't-know-if-this-will-work-or-not advice is to spam SH nairs. Spam those and be cognizant of spacing. Nairs come out so fast that you should be beating the characters mentioned with good spacing(except perhaps Yoshi, he's a different ballgame. He's a step up in the air from the other mentioned characters).

 

[Luco]

Ness has issues dealing with good jugglers. It's a sad truth that we get juggled reasonably easily because our Dair just doesn't do it well enough and we can't magnet stall anymore to mix up our timings quite as well. When above these aerial-based characters, either go for an AD through them or reset to neutral by getting to the ledge and getting up from there.

Otherwise, F-air should beat most of them, otherwise perhaps try OoS Nairs when they approach? With characters that have projectiles like yoshi you'll pretty much have to powershield their projectiles until you can get close enough to space your aerials, then capitalise on them when they're in disadvantage. Those characters can be difficult

 

[Muh Nado]

Samus is a bit of a surprise to me. My roommate mains Samus, and while he may not be on the level of the guys you're playing, he doesn't seem that great in the air. His moves aren't bad, they just don't seem quick. I wouldn't want to be under him in the air, but otherwise I'd challenge him in the air all day.

It just feels like a timing issue to me. My general I-don't-know-if-this-will-work-or-not advice is to spam SH nairs. Spam those and be cognizant of spacing. Nairs come out so fast that you should be beating the characters mentioned with good spacing(except perhaps Yoshi, he's a different ballgame. He's a step up in the air from the other mentioned characters).

Ahh yes, Samus is difficult for mainly two reasons. Her projectile game gives her an advantage on the ground, and her aerial moves have higher priority then Ness'. For example, let's say we've both launched each other in the air. When I approach her and Fair, I'm hurt because Samus' Fair has higher priority. From the ground she can juggle effectively with Uair in the air, and on the ground she can space with superior roll range and a mix up of projectiles that are hard to predict in order to counter effectively in split second situations. A good samus is strong against Ness because she outranges him and can juggle him effectively.

I will definitely take your advice to heart, it is always good to hear other angles, hear a fresh take on some issue I can get mired into and tunnel vision. A lot of the fun during hard matchups is finding out what works. It felt so good to discover that although dash attacks are usually a horrible strategy and easily punished, that they specifically counter roll spammers. I had a huge difficulty with roll spammers before discovering that, and afterwards it became an afterthought. I'm just looking for the tactic that would allow me to overcome this specific strategy, Nairs just might do that.

Ness has issues dealing with good jugglers. It's a sad truth that we get juggled reasonably easily because our Dair just doesn't do it well enough and we can't magnet stall anymore to mix up our timings quite as well. When above these aerial-based characters, either go for an AD through them or reset to neutral by getting to the ledge and getting up from there.

Otherwise, F-air should beat most of them, otherwise perhaps try OoS Nairs when they approach? With characters that have projectiles like yoshi you'll pretty much have to powershield their projectiles until you can get close enough to space your aerials, then capitalise on them when they're in disadvantage. Those characters can be difficult

Air dodging good jugglers is easier said then done, especially when trying to land, but what you say is true and thank you for your input. You bring up an interesting idea with the ledge. Sometimes in the midst of a fight you forget to take a step back and analyze what's happening, and to do something different when what your currently doing isn't working. Next time I find myself in a position near the middle of the stage, in the air, against these troublemakers, I'll try going out of my toward the ledge. That brings it's own risks as well, like intentionally letting yourself be open to the possibly of a successful edge-gaurd, but it can also serve as a good mix-up tactic to catch someone off guard through positioning.

The characters I listed practically all have better hitboxes in most situations in the air. I'll attempt to Fair but it won't stun Yoshi, and his Fair, or other aerial would override my attack. Same with the rest of them. Fair is strong because it does decent damage, combo's into other aerials, and has multi-hit. It's outgunned in these matchups due to superior range(Marth, Lucina), high priority I believe along with multi-hit(samus), and from what I can tell, super armor or something close along with quick release and predictable trajectory pattern after it hits(yoshi). These are difficult to deal wtih, indeed.

 

[perroloco]

Luigi.. Any tips in this matchup?

I always have problems when fighting against Wegee..
Here's my latest match against a very good Luigi:
Didn't record the first part because it was us recreating the match (we had been D/Ced) so basically what you see is how the match restarted.
Sorry for the crappy quality, btw any ideas on how to record matches from the 3ds?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnRtqUjmmB0

 

[Luco]

Haha, I love the PKT2 on his ledge re-grab!

Anyway, it looks like you're not using Nair much if at all, instead preferring to run away from luigi when you're next to him. I think you should force a shield out of him with OoS Nair which will usually push him away a little bit (why is Nair my remedy to every MU? ). Also, you're rolling way too much in general throughout the match. I think if you can work on those two things atm your game will improve significantly.

Congrats on the win though! =D

 

[Earthbound360]

I've been playing 2fasttt's Luigi a good amount lately, and I've been steadily learning the matchup. It's not as bad as I once thought.

First off, don't get grabbed. His dthrow combos are insane. They damage, they KO, and the put you off stage in situations you REALLY don't want to be in.
I try to play rather defensively against Luigi. It's what bothers him a lot. He has trouble getting in. Ness doesn't really have any good options for keeping people out, so it's not quite easy to exploit, but fade back fairs and empty short hops can help you out some. Just be very patient. You do NOT want to mess up in this matchup, because Luigi's punishes can hurt bad.
Third, don't get grabbed. Dthrow to Cyclone WILL kill you.
Also fireballs. Those guys are actually more troublesome than one might initially assume. Be wary of all lead ins with fireballs, as well as B reversed fireballs if the opponent knows how to use them. Ness has 2 unique counters to fireballs. You can bat them back. Normally I'm against using the bat reflect outside of kicks and giggles, but here's it's quite potent. The fireballs are slow and predictable, and Luigi lacks the movement ability to really avoid a quick oncoming fireball. It does a nice bit of damage too.. In addition to this, you have PSI Magnet. Just be sure to magnet cancel with a roll, spot dodge, or jump, and be sure to mix it up and not get predictable. Along with that, powershielding is a good option too, just don't get predictable. Mix it up between these.
Last, do NOT get ****ing grabbed. Seriously don't.

 

[perroloco]

@ Luco
Yeah.. I did get very lucky on that PKT2.
I had already tried using Nair in the previous matches but I think Luigi has priority or something in aerials because even using Nair I couldn't really do too much against him..

After reading Earthbound360's post one thing did get sticked to my mind, not to get grabbed xD

So in a nuthsell.. Not to block Luigi's fire ball because then it goes for the grab.. Instead reflect, dodge, or absorb, but not shield, becaues then Wegee goes for the grab, got it

 

[PKBeam]

generally, aerials don't have priority like ground moves. they just trade. his Fair hitbox is probably coming out faster than your Nair hitbox.

unfortunately for us, Nair is our fastest offensive aerial option. if it's giving you that much trouble then you'll have to outspace him.

 

[revengeska]

Ahh yes, Samus is difficult for mainly two reasons. Her projectile game gives her an advantage on the ground, and her aerial moves have higher priority then Ness'. For example, let's say we've both launched each other in the air. When I approach her and Fair, I'm hurt because Samus' Fair has higher priority. From the ground she can juggle effectively with Uair in the air, and on the ground she can space with superior roll range and a mix up of projectiles that are hard to predict in order to counter effectively in split second situations. A good samus is strong against Ness because she outranges him and can juggle him effectively.

I will definitely take your advice to heart, it is always good to hear other angles, hear a fresh take on some issue I can get mired into and tunnel vision. A lot of the fun during hard matchups is finding out what works. It felt so good to discover that although dash attacks are usually a horrible strategy and easily punished, that they specifically counter roll spammers. I had a huge difficulty with roll spammers before discovering that, and afterwards it became an afterthought. I'm just looking for the tactic that would allow me to overcome this specific strategy, Nairs just might do that.



Air dodging good jugglers is easier said then done, especially when trying to land, but what you say is true and thank you for your input. You bring up an interesting idea with the ledge. Sometimes in the midst of a fight you forget to take a step back and analyze what's happening, and to do something different when what your currently doing isn't working. Next time I find myself in a position near the middle of the stage, in the air, against these troublemakers, I'll try going out of my toward the ledge. That brings it's

I'm having a lot of trouble with characters who are good in the air. It's even worse if they have projectiles and there good in the air. Recently mainly it's been Lucina, Marth, Yoshi's and Samus. Anyone got any tips? After over 600 wins and 300 losses, I know a lot about matchups, but I still come across some players who, when matched up with my playstyle, can utterly dominate me, usually with these 4 characters, and a predominant focus on an air game. Despite usually dominating much of the lesser players on For Glory like most people, and learning the intricacies of certain matchups so well the whole match is entirely predictable, I'm still faced with the odd competitor who flat out demolishes me. Instead of presuming that these people have 90% win ratio's and are practically pro's, I'd rather assume their playstyle and characters counter me completely.

You can actually force Samus to approach you, because you can reflect her projectiles with the bat. They're slow enough where you'll have the time, and depending on distance she may have too much end lag to react. Charge shot is the only projectile too fast to rely on reflecting, but you can if you telegraph it, or absorb it.

Her fair does have range and priority, but it has a lot of end lag and is very punishable if she hits the ground before it ends. Use this to your advantage, because she'll have a hard time using it in a short hop game. Also, when landing, it can help to read what direction your opponent is going to go and switch it up. Samus really isn't fast enough to chase you. And you know if they jump up in the air under you, they're going for an up b kill. You usually have enough time to avoid it and then punish.

I think Ness has a fairly sizeable advantage in this matchup, probably 65:35.

 

[PMMikey]

I have decent problems against Little Mac as Ness. I can beat him with almost every other character, but I can't beat him with Ness somehow. :/

Little Mac, Sheik, Diddy Kong are my main issues. All Little mac players do is Dsmash and dash attacks, Sheik is just too fast for me to handel plus the needles and aerial game is strong and my problem with Diddy is that everyone is the exact same. Throw bananas get it throw it the uair all day. How can I counter these problems?

 

[PKBeam]

Dsmashing your shield? Drop it and dash grab him.
Dash attacking your shield? Dash grab it.
Grab? Dthrow and get him airborne.
Mac gets trashed in the air by Ness.
He has no safe landing options to the point where running up to him and grabbing his landing is viable. His aerials are just terrible.
Also, he can die ridiculously early from gimping out of Dthrow setups.
Just don't let him stay on the ground and you have yourself a +2 matchup.

 

[xXx_360Lucas420_xXx]

Rosalina is one of the worst matchups against Ness if you ask me, go off ledge, use the gravitational pull to eat Ness's PKT, auto KO.

 

[PSIBoy]

Rosalina is one of the worst matchups against Ness if you ask me, go off ledge, use the gravitational pull to eat Ness's PKT, auto KO.

Actually PKT then turns into Rosalina's own hitbox, meaning that Ness can get hit and then get knocked out of free fall, therefore giving him another chance to recover. In short, that makes it hard to gimp Ness with that move.

 

[Earthbound360]

That gimp is so overblown. It's actually not that hard to avoid. Just always make sure you can get back with your double jump. Recovery safely every single time.

 

[Noa.]

The gp pull gimp is stronger in the threat of it more than the actual application itself.

I think even if she didn't have it she'd still be a bad matchup for us. There are other, more impactful attributes she has that make the matchup difficult for us.

It's still not that bad. I'm now convinced we have three bad matchups.

Sonic, sheik, and rosa. I still don't think diddy is a bad matchup. But after much deliberation, I'll admit that sheik has an advantage against us. I think our worst matchup will probably just come down to the playstyle you have as ness, as well as who's in your local scene plays the character well. I think these three matchups are perfectly winnable though. You should never lose to a player who's worse than you if they're playing these characters. When you learn the matchup you won't have to fear that. But playing against people who are the same skill level or better, you will have a hard time against these characters.

 

[PKBeam]

our worst is probably tied @ Diddy and Sheik.

also, if rosalina starts down-B before you PKT, you're dead, no exceptions.

 

[PSI Child]

This might not be of any help but I felt like adding some input. I played a few Shulks tonight and to be honest I didn't seem to have that much trouble, it could of been the players too. You need some solid reads for a shulk, i can see his counter being a pain. I always assumed that my opponent would use a counter after i ran at them a few times with my dash-a attack or any of my ariels so I made sure to throw in a random grab or two. Not being predictable seems to be the best advice I could find for myself when finding counter heavy characters like shulk.

 

[PKBeam]

not being predictable is the best advice for every match.
you don't always need a counter to punish telegraphed stuff.

 

[Tikao]

I'm realy having some difficulties vs cf as ness, just because of his pure speed and dashgrab
cf is a character who needs to be in your face, so in order to beat him you need to stop, but ness has no reliable projectile, no great range and no speed to match cf, so how do i stop that?.

i can't realy stay in shield, because he will just run over the entire stage and dashgrab me in 0.5s with the slide at the end and his grabrange.
but just approaching him seems so hard for me, he is just so fast to punish you, then gets a grab and juggles you (a position realy bad for ness), grabing him is also hard because he outranges us and has an insane grabrange.
it's not just the speed, i don't have any huge problems vs sheik, and this MU should actually be worse, so I'm just clueless vs cf

 

[Ranias]

I'm realy having some difficulties vs cf as ness

I think you should try to be on top of your aerial game against Falcon. Fair gives good coverage, but if you get too predictable Falcon will be able to juggle you. PK Fire combos can rack damage quickly, but you will have to use them wisely to not be punished. Good Falcon's can also get in on you easily if you stay too immobile.

Hopefully I will get the chance sometime to play against Fatality (best Falcon in my region) again to give more on this matchup.

 

[Noa.]

I'm realy having some difficulties vs cf as ness, just because of his pure speed and dashgrab
cf is a character who needs to be in your face, so in order to beat him you need to stop, but ness has no reliable projectile, no great range and no speed to match cf, so how do i stop that?.

i can't realy stay in shield, because he will just run over the entire stage and dashgrab me in 0.5s with the slide at the end and his grabrange.
but just approaching him seems so hard for me, he is just so fast to punish you, then gets a grab and juggles you (a position realy bad for ness), grabing him is also hard because he outranges us and has an insane grabrange.
it's not just the speed, i don't have any huge problems vs sheik, and this MU should actually be worse, so I'm just clueless vs cf

Captain Falcon has a lot of trouble dealing with fair and dash attack in neutral. He doesn't have the disjointed hitboxes to deal with it.

The matchup is very even in neutral. To beat Captain Falcon you have to land a strong read in neutral. However Falcon handles pk thunder juggling really poorly. So poorly that I do get the impression that the matchup might be in our favor.

 

[Earthbound360]

Captain Falcon has a lot of trouble dealing with fair and dash attack in neutral. He doesn't have the disjointed hitboxes to deal with it.

The matchup is very even in neutral. To beat Captain Falcon you have to land a strong read in neutral. However Falcon handles pk thunder juggling really poorly. So poorly that I do get the impression that the matchup might be in our favor.

Howso? Doesn't that guy drop like a rock? I feel like characters with poor horizontal aerial mobility and floatiness struggle with PKT juggles more (like Luigi).

 

[Noa.]

Howso? Doesn't that guy drop like a rock? I feel like characters with poor horizontal aerial mobility and floatiness struggle with PKT juggles more (like Luigi).

It is true that Falcon has a fast fall speed and high air speed. Those help him deal with the pk thunder. However there are four things that contribute positively to us juggling him. He has a large frame. He has poor aerial acceleration and deceleration to he can't mix up easily on his way down. He doesn't have a burst mobility option to quickly escape from the situation like Sheik and bouncing fish or ZSS and her down b. And Falcon's aerials have small hitboxes, apart from uair, so he has trouble hitting the head of pk thunder.