Difficult Matchups? - Ask Matchup Questions Here

[Earthbound360]

I feel like Magnet never makes a matchup unless the opponent relies incredibly heavily on an energy projectile, and has few options as a substitute. However, I don't think there's any character that fits that bill in this game. Mega Man relies heavily on energy, but he's got a TON of other options. Mario, Pikachu, and Zelda don't realy THAT much on their projectiles. Luigi kind of does, but he's so good that it evens out the matchup anyways.

Pikachu's QA game is what we have to fear. The little rodent is incredibly mobile and unpredictable... We do outrange him by a long shot though. Just make sure you DI that uthrow.

Lucario idk enough about, but don't expect them to be tossing high charged aura spheres at you for free food if they're good. I also think Magneting FP is suicide.

Diddy we've discussed in the MU thread, check out the tips there. But quick tips:

1. Don't get grabbed. If oyu do, DI away from him, air dodge+DJ
2. Don't use PKF
3. Gimp him every chance you get

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Pikachu's up B stretches his hitbox. I wonder if we can just throw out a nair or something. Does anyone know more about that?

 

[PKBeam]

In Brawl, Pikachu's Up-B did really weird things with his hurtboxes.
as for size/radius, imagine pikachu was a flat shape during QA like GnW viewed from the front. His hurtboxes were plastered on the flat shape horizontally with variations in angle, easily one Pikachu length either side.

It's possible that nothing changed during the transition and it still works this way.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I've seen some gifs with this so it may just be the same.

 

[Noa.]

So I'm picking Ness and I would like to know how well he does against Lucario, Pikachu and Diddy Kong.

Ness beats Lucario for the reasons outlined above.

I can't comment on the Pikachu matchup.

Ness does fine against Diddy. It's either even or a very slight disadvantage.

EDIT: And I'm pretty sure that Pikachu's hurtbox is much bigger during QA in smash 4. But I'm not certain.

 

[bonbravo]

hi guys, my biggest issue right now is fighting against really campy links. i find myself getting stuck in a loop of arrows and bombs, and when i get close enough they just roll away lol. anything I can do to combat it? sometimes it's hard to match the timing to reflect the arrows w/ my bat.

 

[Uffe]

hi guys, my biggest issue right now is fighting against really campy links. i find myself getting stuck in a loop of arrows and bombs, and when i get close enough they just roll away lol. anything I can do to combat it? sometimes it's hard to match the timing to reflect the arrows w/ my bat.

Bombs can be absorbed by PSI Magnet. If Link decides to arrow first and the bomb after, forget about trying to heal. If the Link also jumps while flinging arrows at you, just air dodge to neutral air. If he doesn't jump when shooting arrows, you can do a full hop and use PK Thunder or use your neutral air against him. Arrows have a tiny bit of lag behind them, so he can't shield your attack immediately if you're close enough to hit him. You can also PK Jump at him if he's using his arrows. Don't worry too much about the boomerang. It deals damage upon being thrown, but when it's coming back, it does nothing but pull you towards him.

Now, how to deal with his rolling. Link's back roll is safer than his forward roll, I think. Again, you can use Ness' neutral air since it lingers for a bit. The thing is, however, you need to know where he's going to roll for this to work. He has strength and projectile, but his running speed shouldn't be quicker than yours. I should also mention that if he likes to roll away a lot, chase him with a forward dash. If you know where he's going to roll next, PK Fire might also work.

 

[Earthbound360]

Beating Links that only use the "arrows and roll a bunch" strategy just requires careful approaches with shielding (dash into shield) and prediction of rolls. Dash grabs, dash attacks, and yo-yos are my go to roll punishes. Just predict where they're going to roll and attack there.

 

[Earthboundy]

Beating Links that only use the "arrows and roll a bunch" strategy just requires careful approaches with shielding (dash into shield) and prediction of rolls. Dash grabs, dash attacks, and yo-yos are my go to roll punishes. Just predict where they're going to roll and attack there.

I'm having trouble with Link in general. They start out with arrows and boomerangs, but when I approach he usually forward tilts and it's inanely difficult.

 

[Uffe]

I'm having trouble with Link in general. They start out with arrows and boomerangs, but when I approach he usually forward tilts and it's inanely difficult.

Get in a decent range between you and his tilt, making sure it's not entirely in range of hitting you and go with PK Fire. I mean, if he's going to just camp and attack afterwards, then it doesn't sound like he's making use of his shielding. If he does shield when you get close, try dashing to spotdodge to grab.

 

[ExigeOlimin]

not sure if you guys talked about this already, but how do i counter a really good yoshi? I only seem to win by taking out his DJ and watching him try to egg his way back to the platform, only to fall to his doom. Any advice?

 

[We Are GX]

As far as matchups goes, I seem to have this problem with my friends Villager. I cant get near him because of the campiness of Villgaer. All of his projectiles are top notch and his fair spam comes out way too fast for me to handle. Approaching a good Villager is half the battle but after playing against this guy in countless tourneys, I cant seem to win.

 

[Earthboundy]

As far as matchups goes, I seem to have this problem with my friends Villager. I cant get near him because of the campiness of Villgaer. All of his projectiles are top notch and his fair spam comes out way too fast for me to handle. Approaching a good Villager is half the battle but after playing against this guy in countless tourneys, I cant seem to win.

If he sends out the lloyd rocket, pay attention to what he does after it starts moving. If he moves towards you, shield and back off. If he doesn't reflect it with the bat. Also, if he plants a tree, try and hit it back. It's risky, but if you can get it down, it'll prevent him from using a very helpful move.

 

[Accidental]

Does anyone have experience with the Link matchup? My aerial approaches are all negated by his bombs and smash attacks.

 

[Earthbound360]

I actually highly recommend against backing away from Villager after the Lloyd setup. Villager is a campy keepaway character, and Ness is a close range combatant. You want to be pushing into him at all times. Don't be afraid of Lloyd, he takes a while to set up, and he doesn't have a hitbox immediately. Slingshot attacks can be outpriotized with nair and fair with proper timing. Use these to pierce the common Lloyd+Slingshot defense.

And i wouldn't quite recommend batting the tree either; he can pocket it for a quick, extremely deadly KO move.

For Link, make sure you're patient enough with dashing and shielding to get in on him. Be aware of the angles that the boomrang can be thrown; jumping isn't always the solution. Up close, Link has a lot of range. However, not all of his smash attacks have the best recovery. Usmash and fsmash are punishable. Don't go trying to punish him after blocking the second hit of dsmash though.
Projectiles and smashes from Link while annoying, aren't what make a good Link deadly though. It's his air game that terrifies me.

 

[TyGotKrazyy50]

I have trouble from Shiek, Shulk, Sonic, and Rosalina..

 

[NorCal_DSS]

Sheik is just playing the waiting game and reading her. Punish her when she hits your shield, and you will have to shield a lot. Also, sheik can't kill. It's alright if you're at 100% and she's at 20%. She'll die at 80% from a backthrow when you're at high rage. It's a hard match-up, but not unwinnable.

 

[Earthbound360]

Actually I disagree with playing the waiting defensive game against Sheik. None of her moves are seriously punishable on block. You sitting in shield isn't going to accomplish anything, and you'll just be asking to get grabbed and fair comboed 50 times. She has no reason to come to you either with those super spammable needles. You've gotta spend the match chasing this character down.

Percentage game is heavily in our favor though. I swear she's lighter than she looks.

 

[We Are GX]

I actually highly recommend against backing away from Villager after the Lloyd setup. Villager is a campy keepaway character, and Ness is a close range combatant. You want to be pushing into him at all times. Don't be afraid of Lloyd, he takes a while to set up, and he doesn't have a hitbox immediately. Slingshot attacks can be outpriotized with nair and fair with proper timing. Use these to pierce the common Lloyd+Slingshot defense.

And i wouldn't quite recommend batting the tree either; he can pocket it for a quick, extremely deadly KO move.

For Link, make sure you're patient enough with dashing and shielding to get in on him. Be aware of the angles that the boomrang can be thrown; jumping isn't always the solution. Up close, Link has a lot of range. However, not all of his smash attacks have the best recovery. Usmash and fsmash are punishable. Don't go trying to punish him after blocking the second hit of dsmash though.
Projectiles and smashes from Link while annoying, aren't what make a good Link deadly though. It's his air game that terrifies me.

I've learned to perfect sheild Villager's fair and bair but his nair and tree plus Lloyd rocket give me trouble. He effectively racks up small damage here and there to kill me later. I actually have the same problem with DuckHunt.

 

[Earthbound360]

People that wall you off with lingering, physical projectiles are indeed annoying to deal with. I have to play more good Villagers to have a full analysis of the matchup. Duck Hunt is something I think I SHOULD understand at this point, having played Dunnobro's Duck Hunt a few times, but him having recently switching over to Sheik has made me forget what to do against the character.

Will get back to you if I ever figure this all out.

 

[Shaqtus]

Does anybody have any tips on beating and . I struggle to take one stock off them when i go against them.

 

[Noa.]

Does anybody have any tips on beating and . I struggle to take one stock off them when i go against them.

Against Yoshi:

• Shield a lot. He has to commit to either his command grab or default grab to beat shield, both of which are punishable on whiff.
• Sh fair beats all of Yoshi's aerial options, spam it
• Nair is really useful in this matchup
• Be very careful with his jab. It's one of his most powerful tools.
• You can punish his aerials generally, but the window to punish the is very small so you can't mess up
• Using pk thunder against Yoshi to juggle him is important, but it's difficult to get it right because he can throw eggs at you and also super armor through the thunder
• Don't use pk fire in this matchup because it's hard to land and the reward is pitiful against yoshi cause he can super armor against it.

 

[Advance]

Edit: Sorry I got a bit lost and posted some nonsense here.

 

[Shiack]

i have problems with mario , he shields a lot so i can't aproach him with aerials and spams fireballs so i can't get in range to grab him any help?

 

[Earthbound360]

i have problems with mario , he shields a lot so i can't aproach him with aerials and spams fireballs so i can't get in range to grab him any help?

Don't be too pushy with approaching Mario, you don't need to be. His aerials are faster than ours, and his legs have surprisingly long reach and duration on its hitboxes. Letting him come to you IMO has been a better solution for me. It's not like he can camp you out with fireballs or anything, since we have magnet (be sure to cancel it on absorb), and bat them back (use sparingly). Mario's approach game without fireballs is probably worse than ours.

If you want to approach though, make sure you are using safer approaches. Don't go dash attacking in or abuse PKF. Fair and nair aren't perfectly safe either. Spaced bairs and well placed tomohawks are your safest bets. Also, don't be off stage for any time mroe than you need to in this matchup.

 

[Shiack]

Don't be too pushy with approaching Mario, you don't need to be. His aerials are faster than ours, and his legs have surprisingly long reach and duration on its hitboxes. Letting him come to you IMO has been a better solution for me. It's not like he can camp you out with fireballs or anything, since we have magnet (be sure to cancel it on absorb), and bat them back (use sparingly). Mario's approach game without fireballs is probably worse than ours.

If you want to approach though, make sure you are using safer approaches. Don't go dash attacking in or abuse PKF. Fair and nair aren't perfectly safe either. Spaced bairs and well placed tomohawks are your safest bets. Also, don't be off stage for any time mroe than you need to in this matchup.

thank you that's very helpful

 

[NorCal_DSS]

I'm convinced that Ness-Olimar is 30-70. I lost to a random Olimar 1-2 at a regional today. It was impossible to approach, and I proceeded to watch 5 minutes pass by as pikmin were hurled at me.

Also, pikmin eat your PKT1/2. This MU is beyond stupid. #Salt

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Does nair 1hit kill Pikmin or 2hit kill?

 

[Shiack]

I'm convinced that Ness-Olimar is 30-70. I lost to a random Olimar 1-2 at a regional today. It was impossible to approach, and I proceeded to watch 5 minutes pass by as pikmin were hurled at me.

Also, pikmin eat your PKT1/2. This MU is beyond stupid. #Salt

i haven't played any good olimar's so i don't really know i, what's the problem specifically , they outrange you or what?

 

[Noa.]

I'm convinced that Ness-Olimar is 30-70. I lost to a random Olimar 1-2 at a regional today. It was impossible to approach, and I proceeded to watch 5 minutes pass by as pikmin were hurled at me.

Also, pikmin eat your PKT1/2. This MU is beyond stupid. #Salt

I actually think this matchup is probably in our favor, or at least even. I've playrd with Myran twice in tournament and it is not a bad matchup at all. I even took a set off Myran once. The matchup is quite good for Ness.

When Oli throws Pikmin at you and they latch on, it's very important that you kill them immediately. Pikmin can latch onto Ness in two spots. His head and his body. If you use nair, nair will only remove pikmin attached to his body. Uair will remove pikmin from Ness's head and body. It's really important to kill the pikmin as soon as they latch onto you. It's actually even possible to kill the pikmin before they do any damage to you if you time your uair perfectly.

When you're approaching Olimar it can be quite difficult but you can manage it. Nair and Bair are really effective tools to beating Olimar's moves. You want to use attacks that have lingering hitboxes on them. If you hit the pikmin with your attack, You are not hurt by Oli's attack and you can land with your aerial and hit him while he's in the end lag for your attack.

When Oli is in the air it is very very easy to pk Thunder juggle him. His aerials are very poor at killing the head, and he is really floaty so he has quite some trouble getting out of the juggle. He does have his super armor whistle, but the super armor window on it is tight and you can bait it out and then land the pk Thunder.

When Oli is recovering and stuck on the ledge, Bair is a really potent tool against him. It beats all of his options if you time it right and either resets the situation or kills him.

In neutral I advise if you have a safe opportunity to kill pikmin that you should, especially if they're purple pikmin. It's a lot easier to approach Olimar when he's plucking pikmin. Pikmin pluck is not laggy, but if he's forced to pluck two or three pikmin that gives him less time to be able to properly reposition himself to abuse his great fsmash and grab range.

When recovering against Oli you'll be safe if you recover low. He can't throw pikmin downward.

And what was the name of the Oli you lost to?

 

[Funen1]

Does nair 1hit kill Pikmin or 2hit kill?

While this may be simply an extra detail compared to what Noa had to say on the matchup, keep in mind that damage staling also affects whether N-air can kill Pikmin in one or two hits. For instance, N-air has to be completely fresh to OHKO Blue Pikmin (they have 11 HP as far as I can tell, while N-air's base damage is 11%). U-air is naturally stronger (13%), so it'll be less affected by staling, alongside its much better hitbox for hitting Pikmin.

 

[King Boo]

I'm sorry if this questio has already been answered, but what would be the strategy against shriek, It's always hard for me to get in and whenever I play defensive I'm getting f-aired across the screen

 

[NorCal_DSS]

@ Noa. I think a lot of it was me just not playing the matchup correctly. Game 2 I won pretty decisively, but game 3 was just me trying to catch him for 6 minutes. I've never had someone play to the clock against me in Sm4sh before, and I think I just lost focus. I'll be sure to incorporate the techniques you mentioned if I am to run into him again.

For reference, this is him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxEGNPa3oo

 

[Noa.]

@ Noa. I think a lot of it was me just not playing the matchup correctly. Game 2 I won pretty decisively, but game 3 was just me trying to catch him for 6 minutes. I've never had someone play to the clock against me in Sm4sh before, and I think I just lost focus. I'll be sure to incorporate the techniques you mentioned if I am to run into him again.

For reference, this is him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNxEGNPa3oo

Yeah Olimar is a weird matchup and is a pretty complex character. He's very different compared to the rest of the cast. I'm glad I was able to help you a bit with some knowledge. It's helpful that I mained him in brawl so I know quite a bit about Oli.

I hope losing to the Oli didn't put you on tilt. Hopefully you did well in losers.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

Yeah Olimar is a weird matchup and is a pretty complex character. He's very different compared to the rest of the cast. I'm glad I was able to help you a bit with some knowledge. It's helpful that I mained him in brawl so I know quite a bit about Oli.

I hope losing to the Oli didn't put you on tilt. Hopefully you did well in losers.

I'm a strong believer that this game is heavily dependent on match up knowledge. I've only owned it for about a month now, so I'm slowly picking up the character knowledge. However, he was definitely the first good Oli player I've had to face. I mained MK in Brawl, so Oli wasn't too much of a problem then.

I was pretty much on tilt for the rest of the tournament. It was a 120+ tournament; I was seeded 4th, but I placed 9th. Super salt after the tournament haha. But, it happens. I'll have to just bounce back not let it bother me. It's in the past now.

 

[Shiack]

hey i just can't seem to be able to beat weegee , i was fighting a friend with good skills with luigi , and he runs circles around me ,grabs me before i do , hits me in the air before i do juggles me like a fricking ball

 

[yoshi8984]

I need help with the Duck Hunt MU. How the hell do you get in on him? I can't at all because the clay pigeon is the one move I can't get past (his Side-B?). If I try to jump over and attack him, he shields it and I get grabbed, or rolls away and sets up one of the Sheriffs.

 

[Noa.]

Use fsmash against the clay pigeon.

 

[Spiritmonger]

I had no though about that x) **** this will help me a lot
I got trouble with zss, if she space with zair how do I approach her ? I feel like the only option is to wait for her to come :/

 

[Wiisnake]

A mu I dislike is Sheik, any advice on dealing with Sheik when she needle camps? Granted I was getting frustrated, but I think it's an annoying MU if you don't know how to deal with the zoning.