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[Rockin]

Though I still like the idea of having the 3 other Scum players not knowing who each other are.

Not knowing who each other are defeats the purpose of scum. Knowing who they are is the main edge they have against townies, and when you remove that, you just label them as different types of townies.

 

[SummonerAU]

Okay well, tummy bug is gone, seems kinda silly I put up a V/LA but OH WELL

 

[SwordsRbroken]

Well, you never know.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

LA till saturday

 

[Overswarm]

What does V/LA mean

 

[SummonerAU]

Vacation/Long Absence afaik

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Limited Acces

 

[SummonerAU]

close enough :]

 

[Tom]

"Fire and Icecapacitations"

12 players:
8 Green Townies
2 Red Mafia
2 Blue Mafia

Each Mafia faction has a nightly incapacitation (see: Left 4 Scum), but when you are incapacitated, your alignment is not revealed. Each day, the group decides which of the two they want to uncapacitate and who they want to lynch. The lynch target is flipped and killed and the unchosen incapacitated is flipped and killed. The saved player survives. Simultaneous incapacitation by both mafia (double-shot) is lethal, but repeated incapacitation isn't.

Do you think the game is balanced?

What complications do you foresee?

(Note: Yes, a combination of Fire & Ice Mafia and Left 4 Scum is my ultimate mafia game :3)

 

[Handorin]

I haven't really done much thinking about it, but I would add a Warlock for the lulz.

 

[Tom]

lu lz

 

[Mayling]

"Fire and Icecapacitations"

:O oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Yaya]

These pokemons suck so bad I can't even pick a favorite.
I had trouble last generation too. :/

*Points to avatar*

 

[KevinM]

"Fire and Icecapacitations"

12 players:
8 Green Townies
2 Red Mafia
2 Blue Mafia

Each Mafia faction has a nightly incapacitation (see: Left 4 Scum), but when you are incapacitated, your alignment is not revealed. Each day, the group decides which of the two they want to uncapacitate and who they want to lynch. The lynch target is flipped and killed and the unchosen incapacitated is flipped and killed. The saved player survives. Simultaneous incapacitation by both mafia (double-shot) is lethal, but repeated incapacitation isn't.

Do you think the game is balanced?

What complications do you foresee?

(Note: Yes, a combination of Fire & Ice Mafia and Left 4 Scum is my ultimate mafia game :3)

I missed you <3.

 

[KevinM]

Life without strugglin, ha yeah right.

 

[vanderzant]

EDIT: I need to learn to read >.<

 

[Overswarm]

"Fire and Icecapacitations"

12 players:
8 Green Townies
2 Red Mafia
2 Blue Mafia

Each Mafia faction has a nightly incapacitation (see: Left 4 Scum), but when you are incapacitated, your alignment is not revealed. Each day, the group decides which of the two they want to uncapacitate and who they want to lynch. The lynch target is flipped and killed and the unchosen incapacitated is flipped and killed. The saved player survives. Simultaneous incapacitation by both mafia (double-shot) is lethal, but repeated incapacitation isn't.

Do you think the game is balanced?

What complications do you foresee?

(Note: Yes, a combination of Fire & Ice Mafia and Left 4 Scum is my ultimate mafia game :3)

Potential issues:

Inactives for town would be incredibly detrimental. Assuming there was one inactive that just barely posted and the town felt they needed to kill them, there would have to be some serious luck for town to win. Basically town needs some sort of power role to help them out.

Confirmed town would be invincible. If in any way someone could be confirmed town, they could never die from anything other than a lynch or a double shot, which wouldn't be likely until late game. I'd be careful not to allow someone to inadvertantly be cleared.

This also doesn't allow for much room for anything other than vanilla roles. Nothing wrong with that, but thought I'd mention it. Any sort of PR in this game would be pretty epic.


It's balanced, but very finely so. You'd have to be careful with any other changes to the game.

You'd also need a way to resolve ties.

 

[Handorin]

Inactives are always a drag though. Nothing we can do about that.

The only PR I might consider using is the comparison cop.

 

[SwordsRbroken]

i think the comparison cop is a very interesting role, moreso than the normal cop.

Now here is a question. Has there ever been an insane comparison cop?

 

[Handorin]

i think the comparison cop is a very interesting role, moreso than the normal cop.

Now here is a question. Has there ever been an insane comparison cop?

Insane cops reveal the opposite alignments.
Comparison cops only reveal if two people are the same or different alignments.

Can't really mix the two.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

sure you can,

just reverse the results

 

[Handorin]

sure you can,

just reverse the results

I guess............

 

[Overswarm]

Unless you're insane, in which case you don't guess.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

"Fire and Icecapacitations"

12 players:
8 Green Townies
2 Red Mafia
2 Blue Mafia

Each Mafia faction has a nightly incapacitation (see: Left 4 Scum), but when you are incapacitated, your alignment is not revealed. Each day, the group decides which of the two they want to uncapacitate and who they want to lynch. The lynch target is flipped and killed and the unchosen incapacitated is flipped and killed. The saved player survives. Simultaneous incapacitation by both mafia (double-shot) is lethal, but repeated incapacitation isn't.

Do you think the game is balanced?

What complications do you foresee?

(Note: Yes, a combination of Fire & Ice Mafia and Left 4 Scum is my ultimate mafia game :3)

TBQH, I think this is more balanced than normal Fire and Ice. I also think it removes some of the problematic elements from left for scum, those being the limited amount of times you could be incapacitated before death, the number of incapacitations being dependent on the numbers of scum players left, not the number of active factions, and the the fact that being incapacitated resulted in a complete town clear.

In this game, I would even recommend allowing scum to incapacitate themselves (i.e. Red scum can use their incapacitate to incap one of themselves, likewise for blue). That on top of the fact that Red and Blue can easily incap one another really adds a whole new layer of depth to the uncapping process that we really didn't see at all in L4S.

I basically see this game having a MUCH more consistent kill rate than normal Fire and Ice. Fire and Ice can have up to two NKs per night and as little as zero, whereas this game will either have 1 unstoppable kill, or 1 kill with choice involved. With a more consistent kill rate, you'll have a much less swingy game.

@ OS, not sure how you would 100% clear a townie in this game, but even if you could, he wouldn't be unstoppable. Look at Newbie 3. It's the Jungle Republic Setup. Steel was confirmed Seer, the only town PR in the game. He was 100% confirmed town. Town still lost. Having one complete confirm is definitely not enough to break a game.

Ultimately in setups like this giving the town a PR (like in normal fire and ice, the insulator[doctor]) is giving the mafia the choice of either planning to CC that claim and win the battle, or just hand the town a free confirm. Either way, it doesn't end up breaking the game.

You COULD put a town PR in this game but I really don't think it's necessary. I actually think a comparison cop is the most balanced in interesting PR for this setup as others have mentioned.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

if you run that tom, i'd play

 

[Xiivi]

don't put in a power role; it's fine

 

[Cello_Marl]

If one faction is destroyed, would the other faction's kill always go through, or never go through?

If it goes through, then even if town was lucky/good enough to wipe out one side in Days 1 and 2, then it's potentially down to a 6v2 game. For hitting scum twice.

 

[Handorin]

If one faction is destroyed, would the other faction's kill always go through, or never go through?

If it goes through, then even if town was lucky/good enough to wipe out one side in Days 1 and 2, then it's potentially down to a 6v2 game. For hitting scum twice.

For all intensive purposes, it's 10 vs 2 at the start anyways. I'd much rather have town get rid of the other scum team than leave them around longer.

 

[mentosman8]

Hm, I'm with FF on the fire/ice incapacitations thing, however Cello raises an insteresting point I hadn't thought of. Once one scum faction has been entirely taken out, it is almost necessary to convert to a regular kill system or balance is totally shot and town has as much time as they want to decide who is scum. If scum were allowed to incap themselves as FF suggested, it wouldn't be as broken at this point, but would still throw the whole balance out the window.

 

[Tom]

:O oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

ya i no rite!!!!!

I missed you <3.

ya im gettin real good at swfing on my phone <3

Potential issues:

Inactives for town would be incredibly detrimental. Assuming there was one inactive that just barely posted and the town felt they needed to kill them, there would have to be some serious luck for town to win. Basically town needs some sort of power role to help them out.

Confirmed town would be invincible. If in any way someone could be confirmed town, they could never die from anything other than a lynch or a double shot, which wouldn't be likely until late game. I'd be careful not to allow someone to inadvertantly be cleared.

This also doesn't allow for much room for anything other than vanilla roles. Nothing wrong with that, but thought I'd mention it. Any sort of PR in this game would be pretty epic.


It's balanced, but very finely so. You'd have to be careful with any other changes to the game.

You'd also need a way to resolve ties.

1) You're right that inactives are detrimental to town, but only as much as Fire and Ice or any other small game. Inactive townies in a 12p game are always a scumteam's dream. I don't think I need to correct that with a pr though. Town go inactive, scum go inactive.

2) Confirmed town would be nice to be yup. But the only way to confirm a town in this game would be for one team to be eliminated and for them to admit that they did not shoot the to-be-confirmed and for everyone to believe them. And since they're scum, they have every reason to lie. FF basically covered this for me.

3) And yea, you hit it on the head - this is a game based on mechanics instead of roles, there are no prs.

4) I hadn't thought and still haven't though about a way to resolve ties, but I figure I don't have to, I can just refer to whatever Fire and Ice Mafia uses.

TBQH, I think this is more balanced than normal Fire and Ice. I also think it removes some of the problematic elements from left for scum, those being the limited amount of times you could be incapacitated before death, the number of incapacitations being dependent on the numbers of scum players left, not the number of active factions, and the the fact that being incapacitated resulted in a complete town clear.

In this game, I would even recommend allowing scum to incapacitate themselves (i.e. Red scum can use their incapacitate to incap one of themselves, likewise for blue). That on top of the fact that Red and Blue can easily incap one another really adds a whole new layer of depth to the uncapping process that we really didn't see at all in L4S.

I basically see this game having a MUCH more consistent kill rate than normal Fire and Ice. Fire and Ice can have up to two NKs per night and as little as zero, whereas this game will either have 1 unstoppable kill, or 1 kill with choice involved. With a more consistent kill rate, you'll have a much less swingy game.

@ OS, not sure how you would 100% clear a townie in this game, but even if you could, he wouldn't be unstoppable. Look at Newbie 3. It's the Jungle Republic Setup. Steel was confirmed Seer, the only town PR in the game. He was 100% confirmed town. Town still lost. Having one complete confirm is definitely not enough to break a game.

Ultimately in setups like this giving the town a PR (like in normal fire and ice, the insulator[doctor]) is giving the mafia the choice of either planning to CC that claim and win the battle, or just hand the town a free confirm. Either way, it doesn't end up breaking the game.

You COULD put a town PR in this game but I really don't think it's necessary. I actually think a comparison cop is the most balanced in interesting PR for this setup as others have mentioned.

Thanks FF. I'm glad I got to hear from you on this. This is me trying to perfect L4S incap so I'm glad im getting rid of the problems it had. I also think it kind of does improve the regular kill rate, cuz Fire and Ice can get somewhat swingy if scumteams hit each other vs they dont.

I wouldn't put a PR in it. The only 'clears' you get are the natural ones from hunting/lynching and then the pseudo-clears from being incapped and the value you put in people youve previously uncapped.

if you run that tom, i'd play

awesome i would def pre-reg you

don't put in a power role; it's fine

thank you xiivi :]

If one faction is destroyed, would the other faction's kill always go through, or never go through?

If it goes through, then even if town was lucky/good enough to wipe out one side in Days 1 and 2, then it's potentially down to a 6v2 game. For hitting scum twice.

cello with the best questions always

i dont know what i would do with the other faction's kill. i think i would make the game nightless. that doesnt make it a bad game right? jungle republic goes nightless for hitting scum twice.

Hm, I'm with FF on the fire/ice incapacitations thing, however Cello raises an insteresting point I hadn't thought of. Once one scum faction has been entirely taken out, it is almost necessary to convert to a regular kill system or balance is totally shot and town has as much time as they want to decide who is scum. If scum were allowed to incap themselves as FF suggested, it wouldn't be as broken at this point, but would still throw the whole balance out the window.

yea duder, i just have to make sure its still balanced nightless as a 6v2. i think 6v2 is balanced nightless! (just two lynches to win either way) and odds are you'd get 1v2 or 2v5 more often. but yeah 6v2 is hard.... 1v3 is even harder :3

thanks for the continued critique!

 

[mentosman8]

Well, theoretically, if scum from the same team is hit D1+2, you go to nightless with only 1 townie dead, 7v2. That means at optimal play for those two days(unlikely I know), the remaining scum faction would have to force 5 mislynches before getting either of themselves lynched. It's probably safe to assume, however, that it would take until D3 to eliminate a faction(not likely to have 1+2 dead on, likely to have at least one mislynch), which would cut it down to 5v2, a pretty reasonable matchup nightless(3 lynches for scum win, 2 for town). Really the only problem occurs with absolute optimal town play D1+2.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Admittedly I haven't taken the time to fully flesh out this game's possibilities, but after some brief analysis going to nightless if one faction is completely eliminated sounds like the best solution.

6v2 IS tough for town, and as Cello said, it seems a bit unfair to put town in that situation for hitting scum twice, but technically part of that work toward getting those 2 scum isn't just town work; the mafia can actively contribute to bringing down the other mafia as well.

So yeah, brief analysis makes me think nightless transition when one scum faction is left is balanced. If I sit down and think about it more if I think of problems I'll post 'em.

EDIT: To incorporate mentos's latest input, if you look at jungle republic, assuming best town play (two straight wolf lynches and first wolf kill takes out a scum) you go down to the same thing, 7v2.

Town can **** up when given 4-5 mislynches. Look to newbie 3. QQ

 

[SwordsRbroken]

I can't believe town (which was me, steel, ronike, and xiivi) messed up in endgame like that. We lynched xiivi, then ronike, then steel and mr eric lynched me. Mr eric was scum. I should not have let go on mr eric when xiivi was considered for a lynch. Grr.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is it any worse then Newbie mafia 1, where town manages to lynch the confirmed cop in LYLO?

 

[Overswarm]

Is it any worse then Newbie mafia 1, where town manages to lynch the confirmed cop in LYLO?

wat

.. .

 

[Nicholas1024]

It was incredible. In LYLO on D3 after two successive mislynches, a mafia claims cop and tries to push a quicklynch, but the real cop CC's, and the mafioso gets lynched. And then on D4, we have a cop, a VT and a mafia roleblocker left. Before the cop even gets a chance to speak, the VT overdoses to the extreme on WIFOM (as the setup was semi-open, there was no guarantee of there being a cop), and votes the cop, letting the mafia roleblocker quicklynch him to win the game. It was flat out unbelievable. Look it up.

 

[Overswarm]

 

[Rockin]

I want to randomly point out that the said cop was at Genesis

 

[adumbrodeus]

Most beautifully stupid thing ever:

Wow, Meno STILL hasn't posted? Surely our "cop" would have a lot to say toDay.

Alright folks, it's time to end this and we end it NOW. As I said before, Chaco isn't my main topic right now, it's actually Meno. Since this is our final and most crucial lynch to date, I'm pretty sure he would've said something by now. (I don't know if we're allowed to use this info, but he was last online today at noon, but whatever)

Another thing that bothers me is that the "cop" even made it through the night. It makes no sense that frozen was lynched last night. Either the second mafia members has balls of steel, or he's incredibly dimwitted. Sorry for using such a term, but it must be said. Or, maybe it's something else...

Let's rewind to Day 3, where Skyler claimed to be our cop. He said Meno was townie, and frozen was mafia. Why he chose these two? not sure yet. Anyway, he and Chaco both voted for him, though Chaco was a bit rash in his decision. It was later found that he wasn't the cop, and Meno was the real "cop." He mentioned that he investigated Skyler and HE was mafia. OK, but I have two questions:

1. Who did you investigate Days 1 and 2?

2. What were last night's "investigation" results?

Since Skyler was proven to be lying, it leads to the question, how much of his "investigation" was made up? Frozen was shown to be townie, and he claimed that Meno was town. This also may be a lie. I've been thinking a LOT about this, and I even lost some sleep over it. (Seriously) Here's what I think:

I believe that both mafia members thought of the ingenious idea to both claim to be the cop, when in fact, we actually don't have a cop. Keep in mind that we have a possibility of not having a cop at all. Skyler claiming Meno was townie, then Meno claiming he was actually the cop, he managed to divert all of our attention from Meno to the three other townies, me, Chaco, and Frozen. This caused me and Chaco to argue over which one of us was the second mafia member. Our two mafia members put together this plan in the hopes that our cop was non-existant. It worked perfectly. Skyler allowed himself to be thrown under the bus by his mafia partner just to move our attention to ourselves. Eliminate the one "behaved" townie, and here we are.

Fast forward to the Skyler lynch. Assuming Meno was the second mafia member, he gets rid of the one person who was determined to be 100% townie. This just leaves Chaco and I to bicker between ourselves and cast votes against each other. This would allow Meno to simply vote for whomever he wished, and the game would've been over in Meno's favor. There's just one thing bugging me.

IF Meno is mafia, why didn't he cast the hammer vote, ending the game right then and there? Maybe he thought he'd drag this along just to humor everyone? Maybe he really is the cop? I'm leaning towards the former, but if I'm wrong, well, I've made bigger mistakes.

Vote: Meno

Chaco, you're probably thinking "I'm making this up." You seem like an intelligent player. Look at the facts. Meno has posted once in the last 2 Days, and he didn't vote Skyler after he claimed he investigated his mafia status. Meno only states his results from Day 3. Not that big a deal, but who else did he investigate? Your quick voting and lack of a final hammer vote afterwards lead me to believe that you were mafia, along with Skyler. It seemed that way, especially after Frozen's post.

You're a smart man. Make the right choice.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

omfg don't remind me about Newbie 1.

I ****ing handed that game to TUSM on a silver platter and he botched it. >_< Adum put it perfectly, it was the most beautifully stupid thing ever. If he had been right, it would've been brilliant, but he WAYYYY over thought the situation, in a NEWBIE GAME of all places lol.

I'm seriously like a curse in Newbie games. Town does fantastic while I'm alive, then I die and it all goes to ****.