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[Xiivi]

No, I just used different terms that explained the same arguments without actually going into them.

Modkills on town not ending the day results in treestump mafia, which is already heavily town favoured anyway much like macman has explained.

Modkills on mafia shouldn't end the day because it would simply put everything back in their court when they're informed already. Specific situational example: Town Cop claims guilty on a mafia player in mylo/near-mylo situation; there's a mafia traitor that doesn't count towards mafia numbers who posts their role PM to prevent the lynch and allow the mafia to make a night kill that ends up winning the game for them. The mafia has information, and if they could end the day modkilling themselves there is potential for it to benefit them no matter how rare.

Thus modkills not ending the day if they're mafia aligned prevents this abuse; and modkills ending the day when players are town aligned prevents multi-lynch treestump style abuse.

 

[Deleted member]

whoo, I just realised that I once again failed to change my general strategy in "the next" game I was going to play.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

So both of your arguments in favor of ending the day when town gets modkilled and keeping it going when mafia get modkilled are based on the assumption the people will get themselves modkilled purposefully to gain advantage in the game.

I don't know where you guys are playing, but it certainly isn't SWF.

I've never seen that happen here ever. I'll take Mac at word that a Broom game had it happen, but seriously, who the **** does that? When did getting yourself modkilled become an acceptable way to play mafia here?

If people are doing that why are we even letting them play mafia with us? That's ******y as ****, detrimental to the game, and against its spirit. If you cut that **** out of the equation and generally characterize modkills as accidental or inactivity related, none of your arguments hold.

Basically what I'm trying to say is why would we bend over and let people doing ******** **** like getting themselves modkilled purposefully define how we need to regulate our metagame when it's easily preventable by other means, i.e. identifying the problem players and banning their *****. You're being overly punitive to the factions who are losing people due to modkill by establishing a rule that assumes the worst (i.e. abuse) when the worst is almost never true. Furthermore, when people ARE abusing the rules, that's usually identifiable, which leads me to believe this rule should not be a universal one, but one that is applied on a case by case basis. Modkilled due to inactivity or unintentional rules breach/game mechanic breach? Day continues if town was MK'd or ends if it was anti town. Situation suggests that there was intent to abuse the rules? Do it your way.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Xiivi made himself quite clear and I don't see where the purposefully getting modkilled would fit in.

 

[Xiivi]

Do it your way.

Thanks.

 

[Ronike]

Marshy wanted to do it in Boondocks. I agree its ****ty and advantage taking, but we'd have to cut a lot of good players out of the equation to get rid of people that like to play like that. This is easier.

 

[Evil Eye]

Yeah, it's pretty much impossible to enforce an honor system on this kind of thing. How do you prove a modkill was intentional or unintentional if the person simply stops playing? You can't.

In fact, the issue can come up independently of the person doing so. Ryker was modkilled in Unintended Consequences. There came a point where we could either get a lynch in before his modkill, or let Ryker die and see what would happen.

This wouldn't BE an either/or scenario if Day would continue no matter what. Town would have a massive advantage in knowing that Day will continue right on either way -- Ryker had been a relative nonentity, and scummy, so there would be zero disadvantage to his modkill if his allignment would have no bearing on the outcome. Ultimately enough of us decided we should let the modkill happen that no counter-momentum was pushed, and he flipped scum. We actually had to weigh the consequences of this happening, and genuinely try to understand them and decide if it was what we should do.

There would be no need for such considerations if we knew the outcome regardless. And sadly, that's just playing wisely -- you can't write that off with a "well that person's a douche, apparently, so ban them."

 

[#HBC | Mac]

The thing is, even with modkills on accident(not on purpose) if the modkill doesn't end the day, it affects game balance way too much like in Monster Mafia.

 

[Kirby King]

I don't like the "modkill ends Day iff town" approach but I haven't thought of a better rule so I use it.

The problem with ending Day when scum gets modkilled is simply that scum (or any faction) shouldn't stand to benefit, even if unintentionally or by happenstance, from rulebreaking on the part of that faction. Maybe the town is about to lynch the godfather but one of his goons has gone AWOL (and like EE said, whether that's intentional or not isn't necessarily obvious) so he gets modkilled. If the Day ends there then a cop might investigate the godfather and get an innocent reading that he wouldn't have gotten otherwise, and that could put town in a worse position than they would have been had their godfather lynch gone through. So even if mafia is perhaps not necessarily to blame (i.e., they didn't do it intentionally), they are at least the cause of the modkill, so it makes no sense for town to be even potentially in a worse position as a result. (Feel free to substitute "godfather" for "any mafia PR". And no, "town didn't lynch before mafia got modkilled" is not a fault of the town--that's mafia disadvantaging the town by forcing it to work against an arbitrary deadline, and a similar argument applies.)

(Also, FWIW, in the aforementioned BRoom game the person who got modkilled for posting his role PM first posted his role PM in enciphered form. So based on the rules of that game he should have been modkilled at that point anyway (whether you like ciphers or not is kind of beside the point, and what the rules should have been is, well, exactly what we're discussing). Just FYI.)

 

[Handorin]

In TLI mafia, I let the day continue when the guy was town.

But the role was hidden. No one knew what he flipped as. (Well, mafia knew he wasn't mafia...but it could have been an indy)

 

[Rockin]

In TLI mafia, I let the day continue when the guy was town.

But the role was hidden. No one knew what he flipped as. (Well, mafia knew he wasn't mafia...but it could have been an indy)

which was a good thing, cause if maf knew, we would've Night killed Tom that night and mafia may have had a better chance of winning. lol

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Will have LA for a while.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I guess I don't see why its so hard to tell the difference between someone being modkilled for rulebreaking, and someone being modkilled just for being inactive.

Someone intentionally going inactive is pretty hard to figure out as well. Someone goes inactive when they or their partners come under fire, and voila, you've identified shady behavior that isn't just coincidence. Basically, unless you can determine that the inactivity was unintentional beyond reasonable doubt, then you can chalk it up to intentional rulebreak and use the day ends if town, day continues if mafia model.

The point is there's no reason to establish a blanket rule that assumes modkills are the result of intentional rule breaking when not only is that rarely the case, but it is also fairly easily identified. As such, why would implement a universal immutable rule when a far better policy would be one the punishes based on identifiable intent. Ya know, know, sorta like how the law works in RL?

Just food for thought, unless of course you're too proud to eat.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

You're missing the point that even if the town modkill isn't because of intentional rule-breaking it would still affect game balance way too harshly if the day still went on

 

[Kirby King]

There should always be room for discretion, and I won't argue that any single rule makes sense 100% of the time, but I still think the fundamental idea that needs to be followed is that town(/scum) should not be worse off as a result of something a scum faction(/town) did outside the rules of the game. The blanket rule most compatible with that that I've found is end Day iff town.

(Personally I'd love to find a way to eliminate inactivity modkills without making the game unplayable. My big problem with end Day iff town is that it can literally take the game away from active townies when their lynches are effectively decided by inactive townies getting modkilled. In that case, having no modkills is an obvious solution, but unless you have replacements I don't know how you do that without explicitly making it a game of inactivity.)

 

[Deleted member]

Okay, I find this funny. I've noticed a fair amount of cursing out of Mafia games, yet they're never enforced. I wonder why so?

 

[Xiivi]

Smashboards has a automatic censor. SWF Mods are supposed to issue infractions to people who dodge the censor. The game mod has nothing to do with enforcing this.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i curse everywhere on the site in like all my ****in posts

 

[Nicholas1024]

*sigh*. A mod edited my post (to remove a reference to an ongoing game) saying I needed to shut the you-know-what up about ongoing games. The cursing is one of the sad things (in my opinion) about smashboards.

 

[Handorin]

I still don't know why people care about mentioning an on going game when you reference someone who is already dead and is in no way going back.

Cause they are dead. Info is there.

 

[Ronike]

Nick stop the Holier than Thou Attitude.. Swearings everywhere man, chill the **** out about it, its not like its xbox live or anything nearing that.

 

[Nicholas1024]

I wouldn't know. I tend to play it safe as regards that stuff. (Which usually means a lot of muting people.) Also, you may be entitled to your opinion Ronike, but I'm also entitled to mine. It's not like I could stop you or anyone else from swearing, but it doesn't mean I have to be happy about people doing it.

 

[Steel]

you're going to find cursing every site you go to and every place in the world you go to, need to build some tolerance.

also stop censor dodging you *******s

 

[mentosman8]

Meh, I've never found why people consider swearing bad. If I go up to someone and call them a female dog, no one cares, if I call them a Bi*** it becomes an issue. If I say "go have sex with yourself" no issue, change it to "Go F yourself" suddenly a problem. Words have no power, and no word is worse, nor unable to be replaced with another, so what makes one word bad and not another? Then we have cases like *** appearing in kids shows, but add hole to the end and it's a bleeped out swear? There's no logic behind swear words, so I've never had a problem using them.

 

[Nicholas1024]

You find murderers in every city you go to, shall we build some tolerance about that?

 

[Steel]

yes nicholas.

 

[Clownbot]

Taking someone's life is comparable to saying a controversial word? ._.

 

[Nicholas1024]

No, but just because the majority does something doesn't make it right. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Majority

 

[Handorin]

No, but just because the majority does something doesn't make it right. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Appeal_to_Majority

Pretty much this.

 

[Steel]

yeah the majority of people are murderers and they need to realize it's just not right.

 

[Handorin]

yeah the majority of people are murderers and they need to realize it's just not right.

It still applies.

 

[Kirby King]

*sigh*. A mod edited my post (to remove a reference to an ongoing game) saying I needed to shut the you-know-what up about ongoing games. The cursing is one of the sad things (in my opinion) about smashboards.

You should probably not talk about ongoing games, then.

For serious, if you notice censor dodging you can report the post just like you can anywhere else. But if it's not actually censor dodging we're not going to do anything about it (at least not in the context of "he said a bad word," because that's sort of the whole point of the censor).

 

[Steel]

instead of going into this swearing discussion where we're going to end up delving into religious beliefs that hint that swearing is bad, let's talk about ke$ha.

<object width="853" height="505"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VBxPHUFL7_k&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VBxPHUFL7_k&hl=en_US&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="853" height="505"></embed></object>

 

[Handorin]

Pretty bad artist.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

fckin wasn't a censor dodge, gawd steel
it's just a random collection of letters

wudnt censor dodging be like using 1 instead of I for ****

also nick, don't hate me =[[[[

 

[Handorin]

You're leaving out a letter.
It's the same thing.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

http://www.thehumanimprovementproject.com/game/midi/midi1.mid

anyone recognize this?

 

[Cello_Marl]

The boss theme from Crystalis.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

omg cello i love you even more than i did
didn't realize that was even possible

what about this?
http://www.thehumanimprovementproject.com/game/midi/midi2.mid

 

[Nicholas1024]

I'm no good at Overswarm's insanity puzzles. I couldn't even get #3 without a little help from Macman.