Deleted

[Ulevo]

The contents of this thread were deleted by the user.

 

[Frown]

Meta Knight is such an attention wh**e.

Anyways: Luckily none of my friends main Metaknight, but this looks quite helpful.

 

[Ayaz18]

I use Falcon and can beat some MK players, what I like to do against this match-up is totally take advantage of his insane lightness; by spacing attacks and using hit&run tactics to rack up damage then instantly look for an opening for a smash attack (falcon can stutter step so this becomes somewhat easier).

sounds kinda scrubish, but that's what I do...............ohh yeah then down taunt 5 times in a row

 

[__V]

Shuttle Loop is Meta-Knight's best move. Mach Whornado is just annoying.

While some moves are decent against MK's Fair, all the MK player needs to do is wait for you to attack, and then punish you.

There is no move that is both faster than MK's Fair and has better range. All moves with longer range have enough lag that MK can severely punish you. All characters with faster attacks than Fair don't have enough range to slip in and hit MK.

 

[Tenki]

Fair:

Overall as a move, Fair is very good. It has fast start up, almost no ending lag, auto cancels, good damage, reasonable knock back, and average range. The words I am going to point out here are "average range". Because of Fairs transcended priority, overall Fair is not a reliably safe move to approach or space with, depending upon the match up of course. Any move longer than Fair is easily able to out prioritize it with proper spacing, thus leaving Meta Knight exposed. Donkey Kongs Bair, Snakes FTilt, Marths Standard A, FTilt, and Fair, Peaches Fair, et cetera... are all examples of attacks that beat this move.

Note: I did not cover Bair, as it is nearly identical to Fair, but with slightly longer range and more lag. It doesn't have as many applications as Fair, and Fair is usually a better move to use.


DTilt:

Another very good move, equal to that in use of FTilt. DTilt has blistering start up time, IASA Frames to end the DTilt into any other move, and it trips the opponent to allow safe follow up combos. Transcended priority on this move is close to irrelevant in most circumstances, simply because the hit box is usually too close to the ground to matter, and it's range is rarely ever beaten when properly spaced. One problem to note though is that Meta Knight leans very far forward during the animation of the attack, which leaves him very exposed during a transition of hits. I have punished Meta Knight players on numerous occasions with Marths DTilt, which is shorter than Meta Knights, by taking advantage of this positioning problem. Another problem associated with DTilt is how low the hit box is when used. Short hop approaches cause a lot of problems here, as it will leave Meta Knight exposed to spaced aerials.



Glide Attack:

Ridiculous range, speed, and power, yet very punishable. This move will clank with virtually everything. There are many characters that are capable of overriding Glide Attack through multi hit aerials, such as Pikachus Fair, Falcos Nair, ZSS Fair, Snakes Nair, Yoshis Bair, Charizards Fair and more. Power Shielding this move as an approach is also quite easy, and even regular shields will suffice at Shield Grabbing Meta Knight into any throw or Grab Release you desire. Really overused, very overhyped, good move when it counts, but very, very exploitable.

On F-air (/B-air):
The third hit of F-air is on frame 13, and it autocancels landing at frame 21, otherwise it gets 15 frames of landing lag.

This makes it seem like a freakishly hard to punish move on the ground since it's so easy to "finish"/"autocancel" it. And it's true, it is.

However, in the air, its duration is about 39 frames.

>_>

That means there's over 20 frames of dead time in this move. And it's pretty much the same with B-air, though B-air has an extra slice added onto it.

On D-tilt:
At worst case scenario (hotgarbage's frame data), D-tilt lasts 15 frames, hits on frame 3, thus having an 'ending lag' of 12. 1 frame of shield stun. If you take into account shield-dropped moves (shields have 7 frames of release lag?) then D-tilt has about 4 frames of "absolutely can't do anything" lag, unless you jump or grab out of shield in which case you move earlier. Some characters can take advantage of this, especially if they do a running shield into a D-tilt (slide messes up the spacing).

On Glide Attack:
ALL of Sonic's aerials (and offensive specials) clang with MK's glide attack.
The multi-hit specials beat it out altogether. If MK gets a shuttle loop shielded, an instant aerial OoS can take care of that 100%, since there's NOTHING MK can do to beat it.

Meta Knights Shield Stun:


This is the main reason to space well with Meta Knight, and the reason why it is essential in order to by a good Meta Knight as opposed to "just another Meta Knight". For the majority of Meta Knights moves, his Shield Stun is simply crap. And by that, I mean bad by even Brawl standards. The hit boxes of his moves simply do not produce enough Shield Stun in order for Meta Knight to be safe. Many characters can Shield Grab Meta Knight mid Fair or Bair (Now, you might say argue that if Meta Knight spaces properly, this won't happen, which is false, which I will cover later). Even on Meta Knights stronger attacks, such as Glide Attack or DSmash, there is always enough time to either Shield Grab or drop a shield and punish. Example: If Meta Knight manages to hit Marths shield during a spot dodge war with the second DSmash hit box, even with perfect spacing, Marth has enough time to drop his Shield, and dash in to hit Meta Knight with Dancing Blade before the lag ends.

Not only does this present problems for Meta Knight if his spacing is poor, but it allows for a lot of OoS options even assuming proper spacing. Meta Knights Dair is a good example of this. A player just needs to keep proper reaction and attention, as most players will simply stay in their shield for fear of Meta Knights attacks, rather than smacking Meta Knight with an UTilt or Uair once he's hit your shield prior to another Dair or Tornado.

Dair is another good example of how Shield Stun can be abused. Dair is a very safe move for Meta Knight if spaced because of it's range. But many players will attempt to catch characters in DTilt traps. Most DTilt strings can be jumped out of during the small lag of the DTilt while in a Shield. From there, simply use an aerial.

You mean D-tilt?

And yeah, it's true, most of his moves have 1 frame shield stun lol. Most people hold shield waaayyy too long. (/random attack at people who try to defend MK sucking online)

Meta Knight and Directional Influence:


Bloody hell. One of my current pet peeves is the new trend of saying how "Meta Knight gimps x character". Dair is about the only move in Meta Knights arsenal that should be gimping you if you're playing any character with adequate recovery. Directional Influence against Meta Knight is a big hinderance to him, as a lot of characters are heavier than he is, and will out last him with proper DI. It also prevents him from getting early gimps on you, and makes Shuttle Loop much less effective if he lands one on you in the air. By using proper DI, you also avoid Meta Knights edge guarding game, which is by far the best in the game.



Meta Knight's Mobility:


This ties in with Meta Knights difficulty with dealing with projectiles, as well as his weakness to shields. Simply put, Meta Knights aerial mobility is garbage. On top of having simply average range in aerial attacks, he is unable to effectively weave his hit box or hurt box out of another characters range. This constitutes multiple problems:

• Meta Knight cannot retreat from Shield Grabs or OoS options very well from aerials

• Meta Knights aerial attack range is reduced significantly compared to that of other characters

• Meta Knight has difficulty maneuvering around projectiles due to his lack of mobility

• Meta Knight is forced to either Glide, Run, or Walk in many circumstances

If a Meta Knight Fairs a shield, he is caught. It's that simply. Even with spacing, he cannot retreat effectively because his mobility moves him no where. This is especially bad with characters that have long grab reach like King Dedede, or other tether grabs. Often times what I will do with Marth is wait to hear the three *tink* sounds on my shield, drop it, and retaliate with whatever I see fit.

Meta Knights range is also reduced because of this. Normally, Marths Fair barely beats Meta Knights. However, since Meta Knight moves hit hurt box inwards, and has transcended priority during his aerials, he is exposed more than normally. In this circumstance, unlike Marth, he cannot move inward for an attack, or retreat while attacking, in order to abuse this. Characters such as Peach will walk all over you for this sort of a fault.

One funny example I love to hear is the Falco vs Meta Knight match up. Many people refer to Meta Knight as "Marth with Wings". They automatically assume that because Marth does well against Falco, Meta Knight is even better. The difference is that Marth can actually by pass the projectiles without getting punished for it to a major extent at least reasonably well. Meta Knight cannot do this. This makes coping with projectiles rather hard, and brings me to my next point...

Touché on aerial speed.

A combination deal that takes advantage of alot of things you mentioned is this:

When NOT in a killing %, DI away from Metaknight makes it harder for him to follow up. He has to chase after you, and he is like, F-rank in airspeed. Of course, this can be covered up (or.. is it?) by the edge, because people DI towards the stage (and, consequently, Metaknight).


nice boat.
-------------------------

Shuttle Loop is Meta-Knight's best move. Mach Whornado is just annoying.

Defensively, SL might be MK's best move.

Offensively, missing or having the rising part shielded makes MK really vulnerable, unless your character can't break glide attack.

 

[DMG]

Shuttle Loop is one of his best moves on the ground. Invincibility frames ftl, he can use that almost like Marth's counter.

He waits for you to airdodge, then whacks you with SL. If you don't airdodge, then you eat an Uair or another aerial of his. Win-Win situation for MK. Now if you are talking about after he uses the move how it is easily telegraphed, then yes it's pretty easy to see he has a limited path to take. If you are talking about how easy it is to predict the move before he uses it however, then I disagree.

 

[Smash_Gigas]

Yes, this info was very detailed and a good read indeed. I've learned some things about Meta Knight I didn't even know existed. 0.o

 

[Espy Rose]

And now, with their weaknesses overly-exposed, the Meta Knights will improve, trying as hard as possible to cover up any misteaks that could be seen from Ulevo's post-analysis of the matchup. Now MKs will be even harder to take out...

Way to go, jerk.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes Tenki, that was supposed to be DTilt. Thanks.

As for Shuttle Loop being better than Tornado, I originally believed so too. The thing is, Shuttle Loop is too one dimensional, and very easy to telegraph and to punish once executed. Tornado is very useful against a lot of match ups Meta Knight otherwise would have difficulty dealing with, and is very low risk high reward when used properly, unlike Shuttle Loop.

 

[Tenki]

And now, with their weaknesses overly-exposed, the Meta Knights will improve, trying as hard as possible to cover up any misteaks that could be seen from Ulevo's post-analysis of the matchup. Now MKs will be even harder to take out...

Way to go, jerk.

Not really lol.

Well, maybe.

MK really can't pull the approaching F-air, retreating float thing as well as Marth, and that's truth lol.

 

[Ulevo]

And now, with their weaknesses overly-exposed, the Meta Knights will improve, trying as hard as possible to cover up any misteaks that could be seen from Ulevo's post-analysis of the matchup. Now MKs will be even harder to take out...

Way to go, jerk.

No problemo.

 

[Niko_K]

I find fair rather useless. You can SDI out of it and punish it quite easily....

Then again I find all multi hit moves useless.

 

[infomon]

Great post, thanks Ulevo!

 

[popsofctown]

The point of this thread is to effectively high light the weaknesses associated with Meta Knight statistically as a character, and to provide generalized advice and methods on how to exploit those weaknesses, to both a broad and specific degree. This is not a debating topic, nor will I allow it to be. If you feel the need to contribute, or correct, please feel free to do so constructively and with provided reason. If you insist on making comments that obstruct the the goal of this thread in an ignorant fashion, I will not hesitate to report you. This topic is meant to be productive, and I will not tolerate "lol mk has no weaknez".

You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.

If you wanted to limit this thread to which parts of Meta Knight are his weaknesses, and exclude whether he as a whole is a good or bad character from them, you could have. But you violated that yourself here:

As of lately, I've been picking up very noticeable problems associated with Meta Knight as a character, especially at tournaments. When the topic of Meta Knights ban became a large concern, I disregarded the idea of Meta Knight having a large Achilles heel given that his similarity to Marth would indicate he is a very covered character, match up wise, even if no match up ratios are largely agreed upon for Meta Knight. I instead chose to argue the the facts on why Meta Knights dominance wasn't enough to warrant a ban, among other reasons. I now am starting to realize Meta Knight simply is not as good as everyone likes to claim, despite him clearly being a Top Tier character.

tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.

 

[sagemoon]

one thing to note, glide attack. If you put up your shield, a smart metaknight will jumpcancel the glide and then grab you. Any character that does not have an up b out of shield is vulnerable to a glide approach. Best way to avoid this is to run towards and under meta, or get the preemptive strike in the air.

 

[choknater]

To people commenting on Shuttle Loop:

Yes, it's a good move. However, using it is well is a matter of using it at the right time. A misplaced shuttle loop is one of the most frequently punished moves I've seen from Metaknights in tournament. If you miss or are blocked, you can be punished immediately on your way down before you can glide attack.

 

[Tenki]

You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.

If you wanted to limit this thread to which parts of Meta Knight are his weaknesses, and exclude whether he as a whole is a good or bad character from them, you could have. But you violated that yourself here:

tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.

By debate, I think he means "BAN METAKNIGHT! OMG UR WRONG THIS THREAD DOENST cHENGE NE THING MK IS OP HE SHUD STIL BE BANND LOL NO MATR WUT! LOL"
(aka, don't turn this thread into a ban/anti-ban thread.)

one thing to note, glide attack. If you put up your shield, a smart metaknight will jumpcancel the glide and then grab you. Any character that does not have an up b out of shield is vulnerable to a glide approach. Best way to avoid this is to run towards and under meta, or get the preemptive strike in the air.

I don't think shielding glide attack has ever been a good idea.

`.`; well, it usually turns into some kind of bad situation in my experience lol.

 

[Ulevo]

There is no move that is both faster than MK's Fair and has better range. All moves with longer range have enough lag that MK can severely punish you. All characters with faster attacks than Fair don't have enough range to slip in and hit MK.

Um... Marths Fair comes out on Frame 4, and is longer than Meta Knights Fair. Meta Knights Fair comes out on Frame 3. Meta Knight also has garbage for aerial mobility, so he can move in and out of a characters range pretty much at all. Not only does this mean Marth can slip in for a hit, but multiple character can as well. You really don't know what you're talking about.

 

[DMG]

As for Shuttle Loop being better than Tornado, I originally believed so too. The thing is, Shuttle Loop is too one dimensional, and very easy to telegraph and to punish once executed. Tornado is very useful against a lot of match ups Meta Knight otherwise would have difficulty dealing with, and is very low risk high reward when used properly, unlike Shuttle Loop.

No I totally agree with ^^^, I just meant SL is hard to see before hand, but fairly telegraphed after wards. I thought you were suggesting it was easy to spot like Falcon Punch (Obviously not THAT telegraphed, but you know what I mean.)

 

[Blistering Speed]

Fantastic thread and a great read. <3 Ulevo, the frame data on specific attacks was very useful, I had no idea MK had such terrible shield stun.

 

[Ulevo]

You can't just start a thread insisting that Meta Knight is weaker than people think he is and forbid anyone from disagreeing with you because "this is not a debate topic". Can i start a thread and say that Captain Falcon is a better character than Lucario, explain reasons why, and forbid discussion or disagreement because it's "not a debate topic"? If I successfully abuse the power of the mods the way you intend to, i guess so.

If you wanted to limit this thread to which parts of Meta Knight are his weaknesses, and exclude whether he as a whole is a good or bad character from them, you could have. But you violated that yourself here:

tldr; If you put a gag rule on something, you can't put a gag rule on only one side of a debate, that's unfair. Gag rules can only go both ways Ulevo.

Actually, I was forbidding this topic from becoming a discussion on banning Meta Knight. I'm perfectly fine with members disagreeing with me provided they can contribute to the discussion and state reasons as to what it is they claim.

I find fair rather useless. You can SDI out of it and punish it quite easily....

Then again I find all multi hit moves useless.

Like Peach's Dair eh?

* Glares *

one thing to note, glide attack. If you put up your shield, a smart metaknight will jumpcancel the glide and then grab you. Any character that does not have an up b out of shield is vulnerable to a glide approach. Best way to avoid this is to run towards and under meta, or get the preemptive strike in the air.

It doesn't matter if they cancel the Glide, you'll grab them anyway. Just put up the shield. If they attack, grab. If they land, grab. Done.

Although running under them is also an option.

No I totally agree with ^^^, I just meant SL is hard to see before hand, but fairly telegraphed after wards. I thought you were suggesting it was easy to spot like Falcon Punch (Obviously not THAT telegraphed, but you know what I mean.)

Yes, I know what you mean.


Also for anyone reading, excuse the spelling errors and all that other jazz. I really have to come back to something I've typed before I realize even half the mistakes I made.

 

[sagemoon]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Unless you have some amazing reaction time or anticipation ability. If the metaknight decides to jumpcancel the attack into a grab, that leaves probably around 5 frames to realize the jump cancel to hit grab (and the grab itself takes around 2-5 frames depending on the character to come out), by the time your reactions take place, meta will aready be grabbing thus getting it off first. If you just try to grab while metaknight is in range, then you're most likely going to be hit by the glide attack because you grabbed, lowering the shield.

In short. You have to hit the grab button earlier if metaknight decides to jump cancel. And only the metaknight player can anticipate what hes going to do 100% of the time.

 

[Ulevo]

Sorry, but you're wrong. Unless you have some amazing reaction time or anticipation ability. If the metaknight decides to jumpcancel the attack into a grab, that leaves probably around 5 frames to realize the jump cancel to hit grab (and the grab itself takes around 2-5 frames depending on the character to come out), by the time your reactions take place, meta will aready be grabbing thus getting it off first. If you just try to grab while metaknight is in range, then you're most likely going to be hit by the glide attack because you grabbed, lowering the shield.

In short. You have to hit the grab button earlier if metaknight decides to jump cancel. And only the metaknight player can anticipate what hes going to do 100% of the time.

I'd love to see where you are getting these Frame rates from.

You're not accounting for the time it takes Meta Knight to land, or the spacing between the two characters. If Meta Knight spaces Glide Attack, he is grabbed. If he cancels Glide, he needs to be close enough in order to grab, meanwhile the opponent can just grab out of their shield. If they cancel the glide too far away, it's irrelevant anyway. All my character has to do against a Meta Knight is grab, meanwhile Meta Knight has to cancel the glide, land, and then grab. What you're saying makes no sense at all.

I'm not playing Theory Bros Brawl. This is fact.

 

[salaboB]

Um... Marths Fair comes out on Frame 4, and is longer than Meta Knights Fair. Meta Knights Fair comes out on Frame 3.

3 frames is faster than 4, so the statement "Both faster *and* longer range" holds true -- Marth's is slower, if only by a tiny amount.

 

[Ulevo]

3 frames is faster than 4, so the statement "Both faster *and* longer range" holds true -- Marth's is slower, if only by a tiny amount.

I never argued Meta Knights Fair wasn't faster. I pointed out the miniscule difference between the two. The bottom line is Marths Fair wins. You're picking at straws here, I'm not sure what your intentions are.

 

[Niko_K]

I'd love to see where you are getting these Frame rates from.

You're not accounting for the time it takes Meta Knight to land, or the spacing between the two characters. If Meta Knight spaces Glide Attack, he is grabbed. If he cancels Glide, he needs to be close enough in order to grab, meanwhile the opponent can just grab out of their shield. If they cancel the glide too far away, it's irrelevant anyway. All my character has to do against a Meta Knight is grab, meanwhile Meta Knight has to cancel the glide, land, and then grab. What you're saying makes no sense at all.

I'm not playing Theory Bros Brawl. This is fact.

5 frames sounds like enough time for me to

Jab, Nair, bair and dash attack.

It sounds pretty punishable to me. Just like everything in this game.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Shuttle Loop is one of his best moves on the ground. Invincibility frames ftl, he can use that almost like Marth's counter.

He waits for you to airdodge, then whacks you with SL. If you don't airdodge, then you eat an Uair or another aerial of his. Win-Win situation for MK. Now if you are talking about after he uses the move how it is easily telegraphed, then yes it's pretty easy to see he has a limited path to take. If you are talking about how easy it is to predict the move before he uses it however, then I disagree.

You mean ground to air right? Even then, DI away then airdodge down/back and buffer shield or step back. Marth's counter isn't that good, so that's an odd thing to compare it to.

This is very nice information, it's good to see people trying to find his weaknesses instead of complaining about them. Threads like these renew my faith in the competitive aspect of Brawl.

 

[salaboB]

I never argued Meta Knights Fair wasn't faster. I pointed out the miniscule difference between the two. The bottom line is Marths Fair wins. You're picking at straws here, I'm not sure what you're intentions are.

If you weren't disagreeing with the statement, you should have clarified. Your tone came across as complete disagreement, and I was pointing out the statement was in fact true.

 

[Ulevo]

If you weren't disagreeing with the statement, you should have clarified. Your tone came across as complete disagreement, and I was pointing out the statement was in fact true.

Tone? Welcome to the internet.

And you only decided to assumed I disagreed with the first sentence in his post. You didn't pay attention to anything else. I was disagreeing with his over all statement, which implied that no character can slip in to Meta Knights range, which is false.

Nice try covering your *** though.

 

[Lord Exor]

Oh yeah, you've totally got the edge on Meta Knight now! Go stick it to 'em!

 

[Ulevo]

Oh yeah, you've totally got the edge on Meta Knight now! Go stick it to 'em!

I plan to.

I love your avatar.

 

[__V]

Tone? Welcome to the internet.

And you only decided to assumed I disagreed with the first sentence in his post. You didn't pay attention to anything else. I was disagreeing with his over all statement, which implied that no character can slip in to Meta Knights range, which is false.

Nice try covering your *** though.

Unless Marth Fairs as MK's Fair ends, Marth will be hit and fail his attack. Marth's range over MK's Fair is so minimal that it's near-useless. You failed to account the fact that MK and Marth will be moving during their attacks. Marth will just fly straight into the second or third hits of MK's Fair.

And let's assume that someone could be accurate enough with Marth's Fair, that they could space against MK's Fair perfectly. MK has this excellent attack called "Bair" which outranges Marth's Fair.

 

[Ulevo]

Unless Marth Fairs as MK's Fair ends, Marth will be hit and fail his attack.

No. Marth has longer reach. That 1 Frame difference is minimal, and does not effect this. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Marth's range over MK's Fair is so minimal that it's near-useless.

No, it's not. Again you have no idea what you're talking about. I could tell you from attack to attack, what out ranges what, and by how much, between Meta Knight and Marth. I know exactly which attack overrides which, and by how much.

You failed to account the fact that MK and Marth will be moving during their attacks. Marth will just fly straight into the second or third hits of MK's Fair.

Uh, this is half the reason why Meta Knights Fair won't work. Marth has free reign to position himself during any point in time, while Meta Knight cannot.

And let's assume that someone could be accurate enough with Marth's Fair,

Hi.

Or you can go talk to anyone in the Marth boards.

MK has this excellent attack called "Bair" which outranges Marth's Fair.

That "excellent" attack you mentioned likely has slower start up. It also lags a hell of a lot more. If you want to play "best scenario", I'll just say I'm using Bair and be done with this argument.


Please. Learn something about either character before arguing like you know what you're talking about.

 

[MorphedChaos]

What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.

 

[Ulevo]

What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.

Where do people come up with this stuff?

Any character can regain control of their character from hitstun. It isn't Meta Knight exclusive. The only time Frame rate really matters is when you are knocked off stage horizontally, because you need to jump in time to save yourself. If you DI PROPERLY (Oh Em Gee!) you'll be sent upwards 90% of the time, where you should be using any aerial in combination with fast falling.

 

[Lord Exor]

Great Ulevo. Now all you have to do is rank better than top MK players and Marth will reign supreme!

 

[salaboB]

Great Ulevo. Now all you have to do is rank better than top MK players and Marth will reign supreme!

That tends to be the problem whenever people argue how well Marth can get around MK...

 

[Tenki]

What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.

no u.

U-air IASA's on frame 13.

And you can only attack after hitstun anyway. And there's usually a noticeable amount of hitstun from killing moves.

 

[Ulevo]

Great Ulevo. Now all you have to do is rank better than top MK players and Marth will reign supreme!

I like this guy.

That tends to be the problem whenever people argue how well Marth can get around MK...

The main problem with Meta Knight for Marth is that Meta Knight can recover each time he's sent off stage, and Marth can only edge guard him, meanwhile Marth can be gimped if he doesn't pay attention. That, and Marth's KO options are not a reliable. Other than that, the match up is fine.

 

[Flayl]

I love the "Meta Knight's spot dodge is average at best". That's what it is, average, and he's not a worse character because of it.

You can do the same analysis for any other character, except the flaws will be glaringly obvious.