Deleted

[infomon]

What about MK's ability to live as long or even longer then Bowser from getting knocked back if they know how? Uair to jump cancels any momentum from any attack, and you can do it in under 3 frames I believe, so if MK can get 3 frames of areal control, he can't die.

And you can only attack after hitstun anyway. And there's usually a noticeable amount of hitstun from killing moves.

You can Attack (not Jump or Special) as a way to abort hitstun early, about halfway through it. This can help you reduce knockback, but you cannot "cancel any momentum" afterwards, not even with a jump. In fact, using a Jump or Special in hitstun-cancelled knockback gives you a magical boost away from the stage, which can kill you.

I just made a video demonstrating this stuff: [video]

(side note: it's mostly stuff I learned from another Ulevo thread lol)

 

[Tenki]

I love the "Meta Knight's spot dodge is average at best". That's what it is, average, and he's not a worse character because of it.

You can do the same analysis for any other character, except the flaws will be glaringly obvious.

Well, it beats not mentioning it and having everyone believe that MK is like, superuber in everything including dash attacks and dodges.

 

[Ulevo]

I love the "Meta Knight's spot dodge is average at best". That's what it is, average, and he's not a worse character because of it.

You can do the same analysis for any other character, except the flaws will be glaringly obvious.

I love it when randomperson1534 decides to walk into a thread, take a post out of context, and try to make the OP feel stupid on an irrelevant topic.

Congrats, you won the thread sir.

 

[Flayl]

I love it when randomperson1534 decides to walk into a thread, take a post out of context, and try to make the OP feel stupid on an irrelevant topic.

Congrats, you won the thread sir.

I love it when the person makes a stupid assumption and then when somebody calls them on it, instead of admitting they're wrong, they try a witty retort but fail miserably.

I can do this all day.

 

[Ulevo]

I love it when the person makes a stupid assumption and then when somebody calls them on it, instead of admitting they're wrong, they try a witty retort but fail miserably.

I can do this all day.

No you can't, because you're not important enough for me to acknowledge you for that long.

If you feel like posting something constructive, go ahead. I'm not going to pay attention to stupidity.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I have the list of characters who force an air break on Meta Knight on flat ground.


Peach, Bowser, Donkey Kong, Yoshi*, Wario, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Zero Suit Samus, Captain Falcon, Ivysaur, Marth, Ike, Snake

*Against Yoshi (and only Yoshi), Meta Knight can ground break by mashing out of the grab before entering Yoshi's mouth (that's the current theory). Almost no Meta Knight players have shown themselves to be able to do this with any consistency, and the reaction time to start mashing at a very high rate is probably infeasible. Just don't be surprised if it happens once in a while.

Do note that it's not all tall characters; Wario and Ivysaur (as well as Snake who is tall anyway) hold characters unnaturally high when they grab. Likewise, Samus, Charizard, and King Dedede hold people pretty low for their height; Meta Knight is too tall for them to force to jump break.

Everyone can force a jump break by holding Meta Knight over the edge of a stage of course, and sloped surfaces can change things in both directions (if Meta Knight is uphill, he will be forced to jump break less often, but if he is downhill, he will be forced to jump break more often). It may be looking into what follow ups your character has even if he/she/it can't force a jump break on flat ground.

Also, a word of caution. If you are a character other than Yoshi, pummeling Meta Knight while he breaks the grab allows him to ground break. Meta Knight must break while you are not pummeling to be forced to jump break. I suggest being very conservative with pummels in this case as Meta Knight has a perfectly fine ground break.

 

[salaboB]

*Against Yoshi (and only Yoshi), Meta Knight can ground break by mashing out of the grab before entering Yoshi's mouth (that's the current theory). Almost no Meta Knight players have shown themselves to be able to do this with any consistency, and the reaction time to start mashing at a very high rate is probably infeasible. Just don't be surprised if it happens once in a while.

This happens from breaking out while Yoshi is in the middle of a chew, it's not occurring while Yoshi is grabbing.

I've seen no video evidence of it happening any differently.

(Basically, even Yoshi ground breaks MK if he breaks out while being pummelled)

 

[bludhoundz]

I love it when the person makes a stupid assumption and then when somebody calls them on it, instead of admitting they're wrong, they try a witty retort but fail miserably.

I can do this all day.

Ummm... what assumption? That MK's spotdodge is average? But that's true, it's not an assumption, nor is it wrong.

Also, yes, he pointed out something of MK's that was average. That doesn't mean he's trying to make it seem bad. He said it's average, instead of the usual godly attributes which are associated with MK.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This happens from breaking out while Yoshi is in the middle of a chew, it's not occurring while Yoshi is grabbing.

I've seen no video evidence of it happening any differently.

(Basically, even Yoshi ground breaks MK if he breaks out while being pummelled)

This is definitely wrong, and you can even use the AI to prove it wrong. Grab an AI Meta Knight with someone who can force a jump break (let's use Donkey Kong) and pummel him a bunch. Notice he grounds breaks almost every time. Now repeat the experiment with Yoshi. I have done tons of tests on this matter, and I just did a few more trials. Do you know how often I have witnesses a ground break in this situation? Never. There are really two possibilities:

1. The AI and my friends manage to consistently specifically avoid breaking during pummels.
2. Yoshi has unique properties for ground/jump breaks.

I think the solution is evident. The only video I've ever seen (which I don't have handy) of a ground break against Yoshi (I used to believe it was just impossible) broke before entering Yoshi's mouth; I don't know what other conclusion to draw here.

 

[ZeroFox]

Time to find out ways of getting past those weaknesses =P

 

[salaboB]

This is definitely wrong, and you can even use the AI to prove it wrong. Grab an AI Meta Knight with someone who can force a jump break (let's use Donkey Kong) and pummel him a bunch. Notice he grounds breaks almost every time. Now repeat the experiment with Yoshi. I have done tons of tests on this matter, and I just did a few more trials. Do you know how often I have witnesses a ground break in this situation? Never. There are really two possibilities:

1. The AI and my friends manage to consistently specifically avoid breaking during pummels.
2. Yoshi has unique properties for ground/jump breaks.

I think the solution is evident. The only video I've ever seen (which I don't have handy) of a ground break against Yoshi (I used to believe it was just impossible) broke before entering Yoshi's mouth; I don't know what other conclusion to draw here.

Link to the video?

The only one I've seen, Yoshi grabs him, starts his first nom, and MK ground breaks midway through it.

 

[Flayl]

Ummm... what assumption? That MK's spotdodge is average? But that's true, it's not an assumption, nor is it wrong.

Also, yes, he pointed out something of MK's that was average. That doesn't mean he's trying to make it seem bad. He said it's average, instead of the usual godly attributes which are associated with MK.

Before this thread was made he had tried to downplay MK by saying his spot dodge was bad. Some of us pointed out that it was, like most of the cast, average. Now that he knows that's not true, he says it's average "at best". This might seem like nitpicking, but in fact we don't know how many more times he has watered something down so it could seem beatable. Maybe when Overswarm or somebody else who has done the research can prove him wrong on his evaluations, he can't pretend to ignore them. I for one can't take anything this guy writes with face value, specially with his attitude.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Great thread, but I'm hearing myself say "wtf?" at a lot of your facts.

Meta Knights aerial attack range is reduced significantly compared to that of other characters...He has good range in the air.

Meta Knight has difficulty maneuvering around projectiles due to his lack of mobility...Huh? He's the most mobile character in the game, projectiles don't affect him nearly as much as they do other characters.

Meta Knight is forced to either Glide, Run, or Walk in many circumstances...Every character has to run or walk...Meta Knight can glide and jump and tornado...He has more options than any character. I'd delete this one.

I'd get rid of those three, as at least two of those are completely false. Otherwise amazing thread with good organization. Props man.

 

[Ulevo]

Before this thread was made he had tried to downplay MK by saying his spot dodge was bad. Some of us pointed out that it was, like most of the cast, average. Now that he knows that's not true, he says it's average "at best". This might seem like nitpicking, but in fact we don't know how many more times he has watered something down so it could seem beatable. Maybe when Overswarm or somebody else who has done the research can prove him wrong on his evaluations, he can't pretend to ignore them. I for one can't take anything this guy writes with face value, specially with his attitude.

I never stated anything about Meta Knights spot dodge before this thread was made. You are either mistaking me for another poster, or are making false and imaginary accusations altogether.

That aside, Meta Knight's spot dodge IS average. There are other characters with sufficiently better dodge animations, such as Ikes or Links. Then you have dodges such as Dededes, which are amazing.

I do not water down anything. I evaluate and analyze for things as they are. You can go ahead and make the accusations you wish.

Great thread, but I'm hearing myself say "wtf?" at a lot of your facts.

Meta Knights aerial attack range is reduced significantly compared to that of other characters...He has good range in the air.

Meta Knights aerial range is good for the speed it has, but many attacks beat it, whether if it be grounded or other aerial attacks. Snakes Tilts, Donkey Kongs Tilts and Bair, most of Marths moveset, Peach's Fair, King Dedede's FTilt and aerials, Ike's aerials, Charizards Fair and FTilt, Ivysaurs Bair... There's a fair bit. I'm not going to list them all, but it's enough to know that Meta Knights Fair is not the most reliable spacing tool.

Meta Knights Dair and Bair are in the same boat. We both know Nair has next to no range at all. Uair has a very good vertical hit box, but it is beaten by a select few Dairs.

Meta Knight has difficulty maneuvering around projectiles due to his lack of mobility...Huh? He's the most mobile character in the game, projectiles don't affect him nearly as much as they do other characters.

As for projectiles, Meta Knight is mobile due to his flexibility with Shuttle Loop, Gliding, Tornado, and his run speed. His aerial mobility sucks. His jumps individually do not go very high, and his speed in the air is very slow. The point I was trying to make was that because he cannot stay aerial against many projectiles due to this fact, it limits his options.

Meta Knight is forced to either Glide, Run, or Walk in many circumstances...Every character has to run or walk...Meta Knight can glide and jump and tornado...He has more options than any character. I'd delete this one.

Again, I wasn't implying Meta Knight could only walk, run, et cetera. That was still pertaining to projectiles. Although I did forget to add Tornado. He cannot safely stay in the air against projectiles because it limits the options he has, and he isn't fast enough to by pass them. He is on the ground, but it forces him to either walk (safest), run (unsafe), or Tornado (dangerous/safe depending upon match up).

I'd get rid of those three, as at least two of those are completely false. Otherwise amazing thread with good organization. Props man.

Either way, thank you for the compliment.

Stuff.

Thank you for the list Ampharos.

 

[Flayl]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5697122&postcount=147

The response is in another thread because this one was locked. With this I bid this thread adieu.

 

[Ulevo]

It would seem my memory lapsed. That's fine, I can accept the fact that I made a previous comment. It doesn't disprove anything I have stated. Meta Knights spot dodge is average at best, like I've stated. It doesn't really matter if you are no longer going to respond.

Now I can focus on responses actually relevant.

 

[PKNintendo]

What can you do to MK out of airgrab? (you just listed the characters)

 

[Tenki]

Air release?

Depends on your character.

Like Yoshi can chaingrab, or if the spacing is right, walkoff F-air

Some characters can do running U-smash (I heard Falcon can do this lol)

`.`;

 

[Ulevo]

What can you do to MK out of airgrab? (you just listed the characters)

I'll compile a list of moves later when I have time. Some characters have KO potential from it though, and good follow ups.

 

[brinboy789]

Air release?

Depends on your character.

Like Yoshi can chaingrab, or if the spacing is right, walkoff F-air

Some characters can do running U-smash (I heard Falcon can do this lol)

`.`;

im pretty sure shiek can too.

 

[Steeler]

the grab release part needs to be updated with follow ups. i'm pretty sure ivysaur can't do anything, even regrab.

 

[Inui]

This thread is awesome.

Btw, God bless Snake.

 

[Mmac]

@Amazing Ampharos: I already explained how the Anti-Yoshi Ground Break works earlier multiple times ever since it was brought up.

From the Anti-Yoshi Grab Break, I'll explain it to the best of my knowledge and as clear as possible.

When Yoshi Grabs people, He doesn't actually "Hold" People, but are actually standing invisible and in Midair a few feet above ground above his head. When Yoshi Grabs someone, he quickly drags them along the ground, then scoops them up to that position. If Yoshi Pummels at the first frames when he enters Yoshi (Which is very common), the first Pummel actually stalls the "Scoop Up" Action, so that the character is still on the "Ground" at that state. This is what causes it is because of the stall (The Stall lasts during the first frames, then after the first few frames after dealing damage). Because the character is still on the ground when he escaped, the game registers it as a Ground Release. The solution is simple, if Yoshi doesn't Pummel, he won't cause a Stall and therefore, Ground Breaks will be physically impossible to do.

TL:DR Version: If Yoshi Doesn't Pummel, a Ground Break is Impossible.

Nobody ever listens to me

 

[Mr.E]

One thing I'd like to point out regarding MK against projectiles is that MK is inherently protected against them better than almost anyone else due to his size. And while his lateral aerial mobility is poor, he won't be flying around like Wario, MK is safe to "hover" slightly above and around the opponent's head in most matchups. This is useful both as a pressure tactic and projectile avoidance, since most projectiles can't hit at ~75-degree angles.

Meta Knights aerial range is good for the speed it has, but many attacks beat it, whether if it be grounded or other aerial attacks. Snakes Tilts, Donkey Kongs Tilts and Bair, most of Marths moveset, Peach's Fair, King Dedede's FTilt and aerials, Ike's aerials, Charizards Fair and FTilt, Ivysaurs Bair... There's a fair bit.

Keep in mind that many attacks which outrange MK's attacks are not as disjointed and/or extend the hurtbox of the opponent as well. This is where many people get the comparison to Marth, as both have very long disjointed hitboxes. There are only about five other characters which can compete with him in this regard (including Marth) and none of them combine it with the speed MK has.

 

[PKNintendo]

Snake can grab release Mortar slide.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

These are the free moves I know about. All of them are from jump releases unless stated otherwise.

Bowser: Ground and jump release CG + countless free moves
Captain Falcon: Free DownB, apparently regrab (unconfirmed) from jump break
Donkey Kong: None (unconfirmed)
Ganondorf: DownB
Ike: Dash attack
Ivysaur: Don't know...possibly Roazr Leaf maybe regrab
Marth: tippered fair, dash attack
Peach: dash attack
Samus: Can't jump release afaik
Sheik: Boost smash (KO @83% on FD in training mode)
Snake: Mortar Slide
Wario: Don't know
Yoshi: CG, usmash
Zelda: Dash Atatck
Zero Suit Samus: SideB, apparently Regrab


I also wrote an incredibly well written and thought essay about MKs weaknesses on the MK boards..

His Size

His size is problematic. Quite a few characters can force him to jump release out of their grabs, which leaves MK almost always vulnerable to attacks or even regrabs. Most ppl ignore me when I bring this one up or just come with some strawman arguments: "MK is too hard to grab and these characters suck anyways lololol". This is rubbish. In Melee spacing was due to Wavedashing much "stricter" than in Brawl but you could still grab any top tier character if you get the chance. Marth had more range than MK has now (comparably) yet MK is supposed to be magically un-grabbable? This is obviously complete garbage. Jump releases must be considered a disadvantage against MK. Here's are some facts...

Characters, that can force MK to jump release: Donkey Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Marth, Zelda, Sheik, Ike, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser and Peach (if anyone's missing, let me know).

Out of all these characters DK seems to be the only one who get's no free attack. All the other characters get one guaranteed attack. Ike, Peach, Zelda and Marth apparently only get a free dash attack. They either deal less dmg than a throw or have no KO potential. In most cases both is true.
However, Ganondorf, Falcon, Sheik, Bowser and Zamus will have better options. Ganon gets a free downB and Falcon even has a CG apparently but since both of them suck I'll even leave them out. That leaves us with Bowser, Zero Suit Samus and Sheik.

- Bowser: has a CG only due to MKs size. It also gives Bowser plenty of free attacks and often KO moves. With it he can KO MK with 0% at the second stage of Castle Siege (so much for the no counterpick argument).

- Sheik gets a free boost smash. Kills at 83% (center of FD + training mode)

- Zamus gets a free sideB. Apparently she doesn't even have to move. Kills at 105% (center of FD + training mode)

...

No matter what you think about it, it's a weakness that's in fact almost exclusive to MK. Other characters have the same weakness but they are not of interest now.


Good DI is bad for MK

Many ppl seem to be unable to DI MKs attacks correctly. Otherwise they wouldn't complain. If you can DI out of his moves correctly, half the work's done (honestly I'm more afraid of Sonics techchases than of MKs tornado). If you manage to DI correctly you'll see that many moves of MK have some weak spots, that you can exploit. The most obvious example is the tornado: The top center has almost no priority at all and it just happens to be the spot that you can reach the easierst via good DI. If you DI correctly (up+away) and fast enough, you basically just get a free Dair and in many cases, they deal much more dmg than the first few hits of the tornado do. Most dair deal between ~15% (Peach, Yoshi, Pika and many others) and ~20% (Ganon, Yoshi, Snake). Some of these moves have KO potential such as Links dair. That means: even if you fail to shield the tornado (completely shielding it leaves him open too btw) you can still avoid most hits. You'll take ~8% dmg but are able to deal twice as much. Tornado isn't a safe move. You don't even need to shield it to have a good weapon against it. That's the "fate" of weak multi-hit attacks in Brawl. You can DI at almost any time out of most of his moves and bring yourself in a better position for a free attack or a risky lose / lose situation for MK. The Shuttle Loop is such a move. It has little start-up lag, invincibilty frames and seemingly transcending priority but it's actually full of weak spots, that put him in bad positions.

Just in case: Snake, King Dedede, GnW and Donkey Kong don't have many moves like that, that bring the user in bad positions. Few characters have such moves at all. MK is one of the only (higher tiered) characters, who has such issues.


His weight

One of the only things that's accepted: MKs leight weight make him easy to KO, even with his godly recovery. Most ppl will tell you that he's strengths will outweigh this flaw. Of course they do. MK is top tier for a reason. But Snakes strengths outweigh his weaknesses too. That's the nature of top tier characters. What stays is one recognition: MK does have a weaknes.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Yeah, Samus definitely can't force Meta Knight to jump break; she needs to take her clothes off to do that. She and King Dedede both can force Olimar to jump break though so they won't be needing much of a slope to force Meta Knight to jump break. To be more accurate, "most conditions" in the first post should also say "flat ground" since the distance to the ground under the person grabbed is all that matters for non-Yoshi grab breaks.

Mmac, that's a quality explanation; it sounds like the argument in this topic was slightly ironic since both sides were correct (I was correct it was only at the start of the grab, and they were correct it involved pummeling). That's good news for Yoshi as well; it means he can trivially avoid allowing Meta Knight to ground break. Also, for the record, I had simply never seen you post on the issue; I do my best but cannot read the entirety of smashboards.

 

[sagemoon]

marth can spike after a grab release (up to 80%, then meta can get away from the spike)

 

[Ulevo]

One thing I'd like to point out regarding MK against projectiles is that MK is inherently protected against them better than almost anyone else due to his size. And while his lateral aerial mobility is poor, he won't be flying around like Wario, MK is safe to "hover" slightly above and around the opponent's head in most matchups. This is useful both as a pressure tactic and projectile avoidance, since most projectiles can't hit at ~75-degree angles.



Keep in mind that many attacks which outrange MK's attacks are not as disjointed and/or extend the hurtbox of the opponent as well. This is where many people get the comparison to Marth, as both have very long disjointed hitboxes. There are only about five other characters which can compete with him in this regard (including Marth) and none of them combine it with the speed MK has.

Regarding projectiles, characters do not have to hit at 75º angles. They just short or full hop, and follow with a projectile.

Also, despite Meta Knights aerial attacks being disjointed, they are still easily beaten by many characters. It is his FTilt, DTilt and FSmash that have long range. The characters I listed in the quote all work. Even characters that lean their hurt box in such as Donkey Kong still out range Meta Knight. What you are claiming is an exaggeration.

marth can spike after a grab release (up to 80%, then meta can get away from the spike)

No he can't.

 

[Alterhalo]

This really helps me alot considering MK is my biggest weakness as a marth player so when I face a MK I just give up unless the player it'self is horrible then i just ****

 

[SmashBro99]

He's light...that's it.

jk jk this thread is helpful.

 

[aeghrur]

Hmm? I thought MK beats out Marth on safe moves and I thought marth's fair was counted as safe. o.O Heh. :O

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am not entirely sure but I think Sonic has a grab release n MK. I was messing about today against an Mk and released him into the air then dashed and regrabbed him all the way to the edge.
Not entirely sure can someone check into it?
I am sure that Sonic can follow up with a Fair after an airrelease.