Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

BluePikmin11

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Let us look into the Pokemon criteria again:

"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."

And I actually have two questions resulting from this:

1. In the scenario Pokemon Trainer plans to return alongside Ivysaur, do you think there might be some hesitance to including Decidueye? I know I am one of the few banking on transformations returning, but let us just assume for now. I only bring this up because the "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?" portion makes me think Sakurai will compare Ivysaur to Decidueye and see if the potential of the archer would be enough to warrant the addition of Decidueye.

2. Would Lycanroc having a bigger combination of benefits such as the Pokemon having anime prominence will be the ultimate deciding factor of Lycanroc being chosen over Decidueye, assuming that only one spot for a Pokemon newcomer is open? Or would gameplay potential alone matter more?
 

Pikablu Pikachu

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Lycanroc (Midday/Dusk) is one of my favorite Alolan Pokemon, up there with Nihilego and Alolan Ninetales. I definitely support, but if he gets in I think it'll be in addition to Decidueye since the owl archer seems too good of a concept for Sakurai to pass up. Not gonna get my hopes up but if Lycanroc gets in I'll be ecstatic.
 

SEGAGameBoy

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Hey Delzethin! I think I have an idea for his gimmick. So, when starts a battle, he'll battle in his Midday form. But, once he takes over 60% of damage, he'll change into his Midnight form plus, his attack do 10% more damage. Just an idea, if you don't like it, I understand. Also, please add me to the support list.
 
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Let us look into the Pokemon criteria again:

"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."

And I actually have two questions resulting from this:

1. In the scenario Pokemon Trainer plans to return alongside Ivysaur, do you think there might be some hesitance to including Decidueye? I know I am one of the few banking on transformations returning, but let us just assume for now. I only bring this up because the "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?" portion makes me think Sakurai will compare Ivysaur to Decidueye and see if the potential of the archer would be enough to warrant the addition of Decidueye.

2. Would Lycanroc having a bigger combination of benefits such as the Pokemon having anime prominence will be the ultimate deciding factor of Lycanroc being chosen over Decidueye, assuming that only one spot for a Pokemon newcomer is open? Or would gameplay potential alone matter more?
1. Depends. If Pokémom Trainer comes back as a transformation character with Squirtle/Ivy/Charizard under his belt, then the transformation aspect would already make them vastly different characters.

Otherwise, I could see why there could be hesitation, but since the shared grass-type is barely a factor in Ivysaur's moveset and is often speculated to be a mere visual element in Decidueye's moveset, I think their core sets would set them apart despite visuals.

I think Decidueye's "shorthand title" would be "Airborne Archer" more so than "Plant Zoner"
Not to mention their body types are vastly different, with Decidueye having wings and talons to work with on top of his bow.
On top of that, Decidueye's ghost type could play a role too.

2. Gameplay potential is obviously a big part in the decision, but as said in the quote above, anime prominence and TPC's plans for advertisement are factors as well.
That said, I don't believe Lycanroc would be a lesser choice moveset potential-wise.
 

Delzethin

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The main thing that would work against Lycanroc would be item usage. Right now, only the Midnight form is bipedal, while the Midday and Dusk forms have to rely on their teeth; they can't stand on two legs, and can't generate vines like Ivysaur.

The problem grows even further when we're talking about heavy containers and special items, as there's no chance that the Midday and Dusk forms can lift a barrel or crate, and the Daybreak requires two hands to carry.
It's something I've thought about. Honestly, I think the best bet for Midday or Dusk handling items would just be holding smaller items in their mouth and carrying larger stuff like crates on their back. It wouldn't make a lot of realistic sense seeing them operate guns with their teeth or walk around slowly while keeping a barrel balanced, but considering most items create inherently silly situations anyway (that means you, Bunny Hood), I don't think it'd be enough of an immersion breaker to become a deal breaker. Know what I mean?

Well, after hearing about Lycanroc's prominence in the anime, I do think he has a potentially real shot now. Though I do not think we will be getting both Decidueye and Lycanroc, I feel it is one or the other because I feel there was one Pokemon slot open for the newcomer project plan much like how Sakurai left one spot open for an X/Y character. Whichever has more gameplay potential to Sakurai is up to him though.

Do you think Decidueye being in Pokken DX will have any influence in Sakurai in trying to implement Lycanroc instead? Or would that not matter in the grand scheme of things.
Honestly, I don't think they'd had needed to use a placeholder spot. If the roster was ironed out around Summer 2016 or a little later like we think, the designs for Gen 7 would've all been finalized by then. They'd have had the chance to look over everything right then and there and weighed their options, and if they felt it was worth it to bring in two newcomers from Gen 7, the option would've been there.

As for Pokkén...I doubt the two games affect each other's rosters in any way. They're separate projects manned by separate development teams. If we see any interaction between them, it'd probably only be through some music, or at most, Ferrum Stadium as a stage or the like.

Let us look into the Pokemon criteria again:

"Well first of all, we talk with the Pokemon company. What’s the hot Pokemon? What Pokemon are in the movies right now? And really do a lot of research on that front.

For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.

But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."

And I actually have two questions resulting from this:

1. In the scenario Pokemon Trainer plans to return alongside Ivysaur, do you think there might be some hesitance to including Decidueye? I know I am one of the few banking on transformations returning, but let us just assume for now. I only bring this up because the "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?" portion makes me think Sakurai will compare Ivysaur to Decidueye and see if the potential of the archer would be enough to warrant the addition of Decidueye.

2. Would Lycanroc having a bigger combination of benefits such as the Pokemon having anime prominence will be the ultimate deciding factor of Lycanroc being chosen over Decidueye, assuming that only one spot for a Pokemon newcomer is open? Or would gameplay potential alone matter more?
1. If Ivysaur came back, that probably would make Decidueye less compelling. A second plant user wouldn't be inherently bad since it's a rare element, but it'd be a great deal less interesting than the roster's first earth/stone user. But, as it stands, that's a big "if".

2. I don't know. I'm sure TPC had the basic structure of the Alola anime planned out by mid-2016 and knew a Lycanroc was going to be Ash's signature 'mon for the region, and I'm confident that would've put Lycanroc on the VIP list of Gen 7 mons considered for Smash, but I don't know if that'd have been the tipping point. More likely, I think if Decidueye got turned down, it'd be due to Lycanroc's niche being extremely rare and being a now-or-never situation like Corrin's shapeshifting was. For example, I could see a scenario where they were already planning on doing continuous updates after Smash Switch's release, and knew the option for a plant user would still be there in the long run since Gen 8 will have a Grass starter in 2019 while we probably won't have a Rock type or any earthbender be this prominent for a very long time.

Unless Golden Sun gets going again, but...I don't think we can bank on that. Press F, everyone.
 
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If anything, Ivysaur's quadrupedness also takes away a part of Lycanroc's appeal and as far as I know, Ivysaur is the closest to a bait-and-punish character we've ever gotten in Smash.

Not saying Lycanroc would be out, but we gotta consider Ivy's possible moveset on a deeper level than "green plant visuals"
 

RandomAce

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If anything, Ivysaur's quadrupedness also takes away a part of Lycanroc's appeal and as far as I know, Ivysaur is the closest to a bait-and-punish character we've ever gotten in Smash.

Not saying Lycanroc would be out, but we gotta consider Ivy's possible moveset on a deeper level than "green plant visuals"
Ivysaur isnt Smash 4 however, so there hasn’t been a quadruple character for the past 4 years of the game’s life span.

Yeah, the quadruple charcater has been in Smash before, but it isnt in Smash anymore, so having someone like Lycanroc be a quadruple character in Smash 5 would still be unique and a breath of fresh air when all the other characters are more humanoid.
 
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MBRedboy31

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Ivysaur isnt Smash 4 however, so there hasn’t been a quadruple character for the past 4 years of the game’s life span.

Yeah, the quadruple charcater has been in Smash before, but it isnt in Smash anymore, so having someone like Lycanroc be a quadruple character in Smash 5 would still be unique and a breath of fresh air when all the other characters are more humanoid.
:4duckhunt:exists... Lycanroc would still feel different, though, due to its more "realistic" fighting style as opposed to Duck Hunt's cartoony antics.

Really, though, people tend to underrate the variety of fighting styles quadrupeds can have; just compare, say, characters in RoA like Orcane, Etalus, and Sylvanos. It's not like having more bipedal fighters takes away from the appeal of other bipedal fighters, anyway...
 
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Ivysaur isnt Smash 4 however, so there hasn’t been a quadruple character for the past 4 years of the game’s life span.

Yeah, the quadruple charcater has been in Smash before, but it isnt in Smash anymore, so having someone like Lycanroc be a quadruple character in Smash 5 would still be unique and a breath of fresh air when all the other characters are more humanoid.
:4duckhunt:exists... Lycanroc would still feel different, though, due to its more "realistic" fighting style as opposed to Duck Hunt's cartoony antics.

Really, though, people tend to underrate the variety of fighting styles quadrupeds can have; just compare, say, characters in RoA like Orcane, Etalus, and Sylvanos. It's not like having more bipedal fighters takes away from the appeal of other bipedal fighters, anyway...
I mean, I was just rolling with Blue's hypothetical scenario:

"1. In the scenario Pokemon Trainer plans to return alongside Ivysaur, do you think there might be some hesitance to including Decidueye? I know I am one of the few banking on transformations returning, but let us just assume for now. I only bring this up because the "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?" portion makes me think Sakurai will compare Ivysaur to Decidueye and see if the potential of the archer would be enough to warrant the addition of Decidueye."

Where Decidueye was directly noted as less credible in the case Ivysaur would return because of the plant visuals.
I noted that Lycanroc would lose a potential unicum in Smash as well, as fully quadrupedal character instead of grass based fighter.
Of course, both styles have more to offer than Ivysaur can on his own, but I was toying with Blue's scenario where Sakurai would look to include styles not seen in the current roster at all and how Ivysaur's return could affect that.
 

RandomAce

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I mean, I was just rolling with Blue's hypothetical scenario:

"1. In the scenario Pokemon Trainer plans to return alongside Ivysaur, do you think there might be some hesitance to including Decidueye? I know I am one of the few banking on transformations returning, but let us just assume for now. I only bring this up because the "Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else?" portion makes me think Sakurai will compare Ivysaur to Decidueye and see if the potential of the archer would be enough to warrant the addition of Decidueye."

Where Decidueye was directly noted as less credible in the case Ivysaur would return because of the plant visuals.
I noted that Lycanroc would lose a potential unicum in Smash as well, as fully quadrupedal character instead of grass based fighter.
Of course, both styles have more to offer than Ivysaur can on his own, but I was toying with Blue's scenario where Sakurai would look to include styles not seen in the current roster at all and how Ivysaur's return could affect that.
Oh, I understand. Either way both characters have a lot more potential than Ivysaur.

Anyways, it’s gonna be Lycanroc’s day on RTC tomorrow, so we’ll see what other people most likley think of Lycanroc’s chances of getting in, so I’m looking foward to it. Any thoughts?
 
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There are few Pokemon I'd want more than Lycanroc such as Decidueye, Mimikyu and maybe Talk Koko, but I'd be OK with Lycanroc. He's a cool Pokemon and I think his inclusion would be justified.


What forms would want though? Personally I like Dusk or Midday the most, Dusk definitely being most noteworthy.

Not really a fan of Midnight form.
 

RandomAce

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There are few Pokemon I'd want more than Lycanroc such as Decidueye, Mimikyu and maybe Talk Koko, but I'd be OK with Lycanroc. He's a cool Pokemon and I think his inclusion would be justified.


What forms would want though? Personally I like Dusk or Midday the most, Dusk definitely being most noteworthy.

Not really a fan of Midnight form.
I personally like Midday and Midnight forms. Im not really a fan of the dusk form though.

Two things.

1. I support, Lycanroc Dusk was the MVP of my US run.

2. It is Lycanroc's day in RTC. Rally the pack.
Im looking foward for this.
 

BluePikmin11

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I saw this posted on ResetEra with discussion about Lycanroc holding items, and I'm laughing:

ned_ballod: "Wow, it's so impossible and impractical"



And also, interesting that Sakurai said this about Greninja:

https://www.gamestm.co.uk/interview...-smash-bros-best-character-game-in-the-world/

"All these characters will be available on both the Wii U and 3DS and were chosen right at the beginning of the game’s development – Sakurai admits he was lucky that Geninja proved popular, as development started long before Pokémon X and Y was released."

So I guess even if Lycanroc somehow failed as the main marketing Pokemon, which I heard to be the case by some Pokemon fans, Sakurai would not just change plans and pick another Pokemon newcomer. He would stick to what the Pokemon Company recommends.
 
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Delzethin

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So...RTC went better than I expected. 12th isn't half bad for a character that half the community doesn't bother to consider a lot of the time. Doesn't matter a ton in the grand scheme of things since what we truly need is a nod from a certain group of individuals in a certain unknown office somewhere in Japan, but it's nice to feel like we're not completely out in the cold.

I saw this posted on ResetEra with discussion about Lycanroc holding items, and I'm laughing:

ned_ballod: "Wow, it's so impossible and impractical"

Heh, well, I've been thinking more along the lines of gripping such items with its mouth and tilting its head to line the shots up right, but I suppose that'd work too.

Sure, it wouldn't make any sense trying to pull the trigger that way, but since it turns out some other characters don't even come close to holding the Super Scope realistically...



...then I strongly doubt it'd be a deal breaker for us.
 
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RandomAce

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I have question concerning which Lycanroc form does get into smash.

Although people suggest that the Dusk form is the most likley, if the roster was decided back in mid-2016, then wouldn’t that decrease it’s chances?

Dusk Lycanroc wasn’t even shown until USUM were revealed, which is a full year after the roster was probably decided. Meaning that it might only leave us with Midday and Midnight forms to consider.
 
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I have question concerning which Lycanroc form does get into smash.

Although people suggest that the Dusk form is the most likley, if the roster was decided back in mid-2016, then wouldn’t that decrease it’s chances?

Dusk Lycanroc wasn’t even shown until USUM were revealed, which is a full year after the roster was probably decided. Meaning that it might only leave us with Midday and Midnight forms to consider.
There is an issue with that due to the role of the anime. It is likely that Dusk was already decided to be Ash's signature mon of the generation before the Anime entered production. As such, Sakurai likely knew that this form would exist way before the public did. Just because it was not publically shown does not mean it could not be chosen. Greninja was not known until XY came out and he clearly was being worked on before then.
 

RandomAce

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There is an issue with that due to the role of the anime. It is likely that Dusk was already decided to be Ash's signature mon of the generation before the Anime entered production. As such, Sakurai likely knew that this form would exist way before the public did. Just because it was not publically shown does not mean it could not be chosen. Greninja was not known until XY came out and he clearly was being worked on before then.
I suppose, but I had a theory that Sakurai could’ve added Lycanroc due to a concept that uses it’s multiple forms as different stances or something, instead of just using Dusk form.
 
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Altais

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This is a very interesting character. Recently, I had been thinking about whom else from Pokémon Sun/Moon could be added to Smash besides Decidueye. However, I've never actually played Sun/Moon, so I had no ideas. But watching the video in the original post piqued mine interest in Lycanroc.

When Pokémon X&Y first came out, I always thought Greninja would be an interesting character in Smash, but I kept mine expectations low. That said, I was shocked that Greninja was revealed for Smash 4. Quite frankly, after Greninja, I think any Pokémon character is possible.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lycanroc in Smash Switch. Though, if I were to pick just one, I think the midnight version would be more interesting.
 
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A lot of people are starting to see Lycanroc, and for good reason. Initially I only saw Decidueye as the S&M contender, but now that I’ve looked into it I feel Lycanroc has a pretty good shot as well. Count me as a supporter.
 

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i would personally prefer lycanroc over decidueye, even if i think decidueye might deserve it more, much like how i want marx over bandana dee. supported

by the way we have duck hunt already, i feel like a quadruped character using items is a non-issue
 
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Delzethin

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Welcome, newcomers. Sorry about the mess--I've had a lot going on, but I do want to finally update the front page in the next few days.

Seems like we're this close to the unveiling of this year's Pokémon games, and while they'll probably be too late to affect us or the base roster of Smash Switch just like ORAS didn't affect Smash 4's base roster, this should still be interesting. Though the way it's being handled seems...notable.


Oha Suta generally isn't the first to reveal new games; the trailers they've broadcast have always been ones already released online. Their exclusive reveals in the past have been minor things, like new forms.

Which is awfully curious, because as unlikely as it is...there're still placeholders in the GTS for more Lycanroc forms, and look who's headlining an anime episode the very same day Oha Suta is airing. Could we potentially end up seeing some kind of ultimate form the current ones can take under special circumstances, like with Sky Shaymin or Resolute Keldeo?

Sure, it's probably just a red herring and the "awakening" mentioned in the title may just be Ash's Lycanroc figuring out how to control its berserk state, but these circumstances are similar to how they led into the Dusk form's reveal. At least enough to be worth keeping an eye on even if the news we get prior to then isn't anything that personally interests you.
 
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Delzethin

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Really? How many placeholders are there?
Room for up to five forms, surprisingly. This discovery back in November 2016 was our first hint that a third form existed, and there're still two placeholders left unused so far.

Though the jury's out on whether the placeholders will be used, the fact that they've had those there ever since the GTS updated for Gen 7 is...curious.
 
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RandomAce

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Room for up to five forms, surprisingly. This discovery back in November 2016 was our first hint that a third form existed, and there're still two placeholders left unused so far.

Though the jury's out on whether the placeholders will be used, the fact that they've had those there ever since the GTS updated for Gen 7 is...curious.
5? I’m guessing two are linked to the upcoming Pokémon game. I can’t imagine them being revealed for Gen 7 now when the Pokémon Switch game is so close to being revealed.

Even if this is true and there are two forms that are planned to be revealed, does it effect which Lycanroc forms gets into Smash?
 

Desdar300

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Lycanroc has been getting pushed ALOT recently.
Recently in the anime Ash's dusk doggo went up against Nanu's whole team by itself.

I'm a noob at making Movesets but based on the anime I think this could work

Neutral B = Rock Throw - works like Fox\Falco's blaster and is used for chip damage and if its charged he'll fire four rocks in succession.
Side B= Counter - Lycanroc takes a stance and if he's hit he'll retort with a powerful headbutt that deals decent knockback
Up B= Accelrock - More or less functions like Pikachu's Quick Attack
Down B= Stone Edge- Lycanroc stomps the ground and sends a pillar of rocks towards his foes. This move deals more damage if the foe is in the air.

Gimmick = Rage Mode - My idea is that Lycanroc Dusk will have a " Rage gauge" and when it maxes out his eyes will turn red akin to his Midnight counterpart.
Function- Think Lucario's aura thing but a bit more severe. While in this mode, Lycanroc's moves become more feral and harder to control but he deals WAY more damage.

Rage mode
Standard B= Rock throw - Rock Tomb- Like before he shoots out a few rocks but if you charge it then he'll fire a big rock that has a lot of knockback ( Think Super Scoope)
Side B = Counter + Outrage- After Counter if the Player pushes B then Duck will deal an additional blow that sends his enemies flying.
Up B- Accel Rock stays the same but now acts like Lucario's Custom Extreme Speed Attack and is a lot more trickier control
Down B = Stomping Tantrum - In a fit Lycanroc bashes the ground rapidly which causes two sharp stones to come in-between him. Can be used for offense or defense

Final Smash
Splintered Stormshards
Lycanroc shoots a stone at his foe and if it lands then he'll jump into the air and bombard all opponents with multiple rocks.
 
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Peridorito

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I like Lycanrock but I never considered it likely. I didn't know it was being pushed as this gen's big Pokémon. I didn't have Lycanrock in my Moon team but it was one of the Pokémon I considered, it is one of my gen. 7 faves. I'm happy to know it actually has a chance and your amazing character concept video made me want it even more. I support!
 

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Definitely throwing in my support. Lycanroc is (are?) my favorite Gen 7 Pokémon. Having watched your roster prediction video and reading through this thread, Lycanroc is now currently my most wanted newcomer. I really feel like Lycanroc has a chance and if they get in I'll probably cry but if they don't I'll come cry to you guys be quite upset.
 

RandomAce

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With only two days left before Nintendo’s E3, how confident are you guys in Lycanroc’s chances of being revealed as a newcomer at E3?

I think he’s fairly likley at this point.
(Both Dusk and Midday/Midnight)
 
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Delzethin

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I promise, everyone, I'm not dead. I've just had something else more urgent.

You'll see later, hopefully.

With only two days left before Nintendo’s E3, how confident are you guys in Lycanroc’s chances of being revealed as a newcomer at E3?

I think he’s fairly likley at this point.
(Both Dusk and Midday/Midnight)
Honestly...right now I'm learning toward it not happening at E3. I think it may be a while afterward--Pokémon reveals have always happened in the middle of previous games' hype cycles, not early on.

Though we should still keep an eye out on any summons that show up. We could get taken a lot more seriously if, say, Rowlet or Mimikyu end up being summoned during Treehouse Live or the invitational.
 

Cosmic77

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Though we should still keep an eye out on any summons that show up. We could get taken a lot more seriously if, say, Rowlet or Mimikyu end up being summoned during Treehouse Live or the invitational.
Mimikyu itself being disconfirmed would significantly boost Lycanroc's support. My only fear is that Rockruff ends up being a Pokeball Pokemon and people assume that means Lycanroc is a goner.


...Y'know, for being such an advocate for Lycanroc, I'm surprised I didn't post here sooner. Weird.
 

Chihiro Fujisaki

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I promise, everyone, I'm not dead. I've just had something else more urgent.

You'll see later, hopefully.


Honestly...right now I'm learning toward it not happening at E3. I think it may be a while afterward--Pokémon reveals have always happened in the middle of previous games' hype cycles, not early on.

Though we should still keep an eye out on any summons that show up. We could get taken a lot more seriously if, say, Rowlet or Mimikyu end up being summoned during Treehouse Live or the invitational.
agreed. i don't expect any pokemon to be revealed this early on considering past patterns.
 

Questionmark222

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I support. As both an earthbender and a quadruped Lycanroc would be amazingly unique in Smash's environment. Also he's definitely the most likely Pokémon newcomer IMO because of his prominence in the game's marketing, but also in the anime and in other forms of marketing.
 

RandomAce

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And...it's done! The front page is finally revamped and up to date! Man, is it a relief to have that taken care of.

Meanwhile, the anime just keeps on giving. Check out these clips of Splintered Stormshards in action!



It’s nice to see that there are 20 supporters for Lycanroc compared to 7. We’ve come a long way.
 

Delzethin

Character Concept Creator
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Delzethin
I have one more thing I want to take care of before the curtain rises later. While I wanted to finish a full video for a revamped character concept based around the Dusk form, things just...didn't line up. So instead, I want to type out some rough notes for it for reference. If we do get a confirmation later, it'll be a means to compare the canon moveset with what I've personally envisioned, free of any apparent bias that'd come from writing it down after the fact.

So, without further ado:


Basics
Size: 6/10
(Slightly above average; shorter yet longer than characters of similar size due to quadrupedal build)
Weight: 96 (Middleweight; nearly dead center, same as Pit)
Walk Speed: 1.25 (T-11th with Diddy Kong compared to the Smash 4 cast)
Run Speed: 2.025 (8th fastest, between Mewtwo and Sheik; that 110 base Speed ain't just for show!)
Air Speed: 0.98 (36th; slightly below average, just below Meta Knight)
Fall Speed: 1.72 (12th fastest; fitting for a character with earth powers)
Playstyle: Bait & Punish/Lockdown - Uses quick grounded movement and feints to provoke opposing attacks and cause them to miss, then punishes the end lag with strong conversions. Emphasis is on whiff punishes in particular rather than punishing out-of-shield. Combines this with a few stage control elements to discourage opponents from moving around and corral them into detrimental situations. Dusk Lycanrocs are willing to fight yet don't actively seek combat nor antagonize anyone who hasn't already shown hostility, so such a playstyle lines right up with that!
Gimmick: Sunset Fury - Dusk Lycanrocs gain the Midnight form's eye glow when attacking in the games, and Ash's Lycanroc had a whole character arc about gaining control of that state! Connecting with a special or certain other attacks would trigger this fury state, causing the same eye glow and a faint orange aura. While in this state, Lycanroc's attacks would speed up significantly, taking normally subpar frame data and cranking it up into a terrifying force to behold for a short time. Notably, the attacks would not have their damage or knockback values altered while in this state, only their frame data. This would make it easier to keep track of and make combos only possible in this state easier to practice!

Grounded Normals
Jab:
Jabs forward with one forepaw, then swings its head at a diagonal angle to hit with its stone mane. A two part jab, like with Bowser and Donkey Kong.
Forward Tilt: Swings one foreleg horizontally, with a small stone appearing and trailing behind it. A decent spacing tool that works well off a pivot.
Up Tilt: Performs a quick backflip in place. Good anti-air, but has no disjoint, and comes with too much end lag to start a combo with...unless Fury is active.
Down Tilt: Swipes at the ground, stirring up a low-hanging cloud of dust. Inspired by Sand-Attack, it deals multiple hits and creates breathing room, but has enough end lag that getting anything going from it is difficult even with Fury up.
Dash Attack: Ducks head low and performs a running tackle. Inspired by, well, Tackle, it's best as a running punish to set up juggle opportunities, just like with Captain Falcon's dash attack.

Smash Attacks
Forward Smash:
Lunges forward with a powerful bite, complete with the fanged energy projection from the anime. Slow to start, but very strong and with a surprising amount of range and disjoint, it's one of Lycanroc's premier kill moves with the proper read.
Up Smash: Howls skyward, summoning a stalagmite immediately in front that juts upward forcefully. Inspired by Stone Edge, the stalagmite has about a 60 degree angle and a slight curve. If you've seen Sylvanos' up smash in Rivals of Aether, think something like that but with more reasonable range though I actually had this idea before I saw that move.
Down Smash: Slams downward to ground level, summoning stalagmites on either side. These are at exact diagonal angles, with less range than the one from the up smash but faster startup.

Aerials
Neutral Air:
Performs a midair barrel roll, spinning in place as rocks shoot out from its collar to rotate around. Imagine something like Sonic's forward air for the animation, but without the forward movement. A long lasting multi-hit nair similar to Lucas, it's a force up close but also very unsafe on shield.
Forward Air: Lurches forward and bites. This one doesn't have the energy projection the fsmash does, so it has less range and power, but it's also much faster and usable in horizontal combos.
Back Air: Kicks backward with both hindlegs. Simplistic and predictable, but damn strong, Lycanroc's go-to killing aerial.
Up Air: Flips upward, attempting to strike with its stone mane. Animation-wise, would resemble the second half of this clip.
Down Air: Creates a rock in midair at its feet, then forcefully kicks it downward a short distance. The first part is a weak-ish outward hit to clear space, while the second is a laggy yet powerful spike. The first hit does not combo into the second.

Grab and Throws
Grab:
With no hands nor prehensile appendages, Lycanroc simply uses its mouth to grab. Would have a notably mediocre standing grab but really good dash and pivot grabs.
Pummel: Bites down on the enemy. Would have a visual effect similar to Charizard's pummel, with similar damage and frame data.
Forward Throw: Tosses the enemy forward. Nothing too fancy; best used for positioning.
Back Throw: Leaps slightly and forcefully hurls the enemy backward. Lycanroc's main kill throw, it'd start netting KOs a little earlier than when Mario's does.
Up Throw: Soft tosses the enemy a short distance forward, then summons a stalagmite that knocks them upward. Lycanroc's strongest throw, dealing about 10-11%.
Down Throw: Leaps upward, then throws the enemy toward the ground. Damage is dealt at the point where they ricochet, with smart aiming to ensure they always hit a surface and aren't thrown into the abyss if used at the edge of a platform. A potent combo starter at low-mid percents, this is one of Lycanroc's go-to punishes and something opponents must plan around.

Specials
Neutral Special: Accelerock
- One of Lycanroc's signature moves is the backbone of its moveset. On use, Lycanroc is propelled forward about 1/3 the distance of Battlefield, shielded by a set of small stones that drag opponents along and deal multiple hits. A movement option and combo starter in one on top of triggering Fury for about 5 seconds if it connects, it's kept in check by having poor range, losing trades with nearly every other attack in the game, and having a ton of end lag if it misses or hits a shield. Because of this, Accelerock is best used as a tool for punishing whiffed attacks, reinforcing Lycanroc's preferred playstyle.
Forward Special: Stealth Rock - Competitive trainers' least favorite move makes its presence known in Smash. On use, Lycanroc tosses a small, pointed stone a distance forward. If it touches a flat surface, it digs in with the edge sticking up. If an opponent gets too close, it grows and stabs them from below, dealing damage and popping them up for easy followups while also triggering Fury for several seconds. Lycanroc's main method of establishing stage control, it can also be used as a trapping move in a pinch or if your opponent is being predictable. Only one Stealth Rock can be active at a time, for obvious balancing reasons.
Up Special: Rock Climb - A rather unconventional recovery move, Lycanroc summons a large stone at its feet and then leaps off it to safety, also dealing damage to anyone nearby at the time. While the distance covered isn't anything to write home about, the hitbox on the rock and on Lycnaroc itself during the jump ensures you'll get that distance unless your opponent reads your movement and times an attack perfectly. Provides Lycanroc with a passable recovery with Accelrock as an alternate option, though you're still at risk of being hit too far back for Rock Climb to save you if you lose your double jump offstage.
Down Special: Counter Stone - Counter is Lycanroc's other signature move, so the key is finding a way to make it unique. For one, Counter Stone merely grants Lycanroc super armor, preventing only knockback while still letting the damage get through. For two, the counterattack itself...isn't all that powerful. But what it does to is trigger Fury for an increasingly long timespan depending on Lycanroc's current % and the strength of the countered attack. At its most potent, this move can set off a fury state that lasts for up to 20 seconds!
Final Smash: Splintered Stormshards - What better Final Smash than a move that basically functions like one in the Pokémon games? On use, Lycanroc emanates an aura that glows with the fiery color of the setting sun. Anyone nearby caught in its light is whisked away to a cinematic where Lycanroc sunders the very earth into a volley of sharpened stones that blots out the sky! Deals tremendous damage and knockback as you'd expect, with the added bonus of destroying any items or traps currently in play just like it removes terrain effects in the games!
 
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SageofIce
decidueye and lycanroc are not only my favorite alolan pokemon, but they're among my favorites of their respective types and without a doubt my two favorite pokemon possibilities for smash. let's keep our fingers, toes, and any other digits we may have crossed for good things in the next hour!
 

Delzethin

Character Concept Creator
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Mar 23, 2012
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Location
St. Louis, MO
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Delzethin
So, we might've actually gained ground so far.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was clearly designed to bring back everyone from the onset of the project. Which means Ivysaur was planned to come back from the beginning.

With that in mind...who would've been the more compelling Pokémon newcomer? Another character with plant powers? Or what would be the first earthbender on the roster?

Dare I say it, we might've just become a frontrunner.
 
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