Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Cosmic77

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Lycanroc lives to see another day.

Decidueye looks less likely now, but it ain't over just yet. Mimikyu hasn't been shown in a Pokeball yet, and that's a huge red flag to me. We also have Incineroar who has also been getting some promotion in the anime.
 

RandomAce

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How many new Pokéballs were revealed? I only saw Bewear (RIP), Solgaleo, and Alolan Vulpix.

I’m happy that Lycanroc now seems more likley.
 
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So, we might've actually gained ground so far.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was clearly designed to bring back everyone from the onset of the project. Which means Ivysaur was planned to come back from the beginning.

With that in mind...who would've been the more compelling Pokémon newcomer? Another character with plant powers? Or what would be the first earthbender on the roster?

Dare I say it, we might've just become a frontrunner.
First post here ayyy! Before I become the bringer of bad news though I just wanna say I love all doggos and Lycanroc has a lotta potential.

But with a limited newcomer quantity, is Pokemon really going to get not one (Pichu), not two or three (PT), but four new additions? Regardless of how much potential Lycanroc has it really would be unfair to other series who have prime candidates who have just as much potential such as Xenoblade/Elma if they don't get anything but Pokemon gets FOUR new characters. It'd be a little excessive. That's why I think every other Pokemon character, despite not being shown, is essentially out of the running.
 

RandomAce

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First post here ayyy! Before I become the bringer of bad news though I just wanna say I love all doggos and Lycanroc has a lotta potential.

But with a limited newcomer quantity, is Pokemon really going to get not one (Pichu), not two or three (PT), but four new additions? Regardless of how much potential Lycanroc has it really would be unfair to other series who have prime candidates who have just as much potential such as Xenoblade/Elma if they don't get anything but Pokemon gets FOUR new characters. It'd be a little excessive. That's why I think every other Pokemon character, despite not being shown, is essentially out of the running.
The thing is, Pokemon has four VETERANS not newcomers. People have already experienced them before and don’t really require a lot of work since the stuff is there, just some updating and fixing.

Lycanroc will be something fresh and new after many people have been anticipating a Gen 7 Pokémon newcomer. It’s great that Pokémon Trainer and Pichu is back, but people will wonder what happened to the Gen 7 mon they were expecting (and wanting).
 
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So, we might've actually gained ground so far.

Super Smash Bros. Ultimate was clearly designed to bring back everyone from the onset of the project. Which means Ivysaur was planned to come back from the beginning.

With that in mind...who would've been the more compelling Pokémon newcomer? Another character with plant powers? Or what would be the first earthbender on the roster?

Dare I say it, we might've just become a frontrunner.
Nah, Lycanroc loses his fully quadruped appeal. Movesets go deeper than visuals and the grass visuals of Ivy aren't a big part of her set's appeal
 
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Nah, Lycanroc loses his fully quadruped appeal. Movesets go deeper than visuals and the grass visuals of Ivy aren't a big part of her set's appeal
The appeal of lycanroc is not just it being a quadruped. It also is a terraformer, with its use of its rock type being something that no one else in smash does.
 
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The appeal of lycanroc is not just it being a quadruped. It also is a terraformer, with its use of its rock type being something that no one else in smash does.
Decidueye has more potential than using grass moves too. Especially when Ivysaur doesn't go all-out on them either and he's part of Trainer's gimmick again. I don't think Ivysaur being grass lessens Cids chances to thenpoint where Lycanrocs a frontrunner
 

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The appeal of lycanroc is not just it being a quadruped. It also is a terraformer, with its use of its rock type being something that no one else in smash does.
Precisely. And I'd argue something like elemental affinity is the crux of a Pokémon character's moveset, something the developers consider very important.

Plus, most of Ivysaur's attacks involve prehensile vines, so it's not quite the same as a completely feral fighter.

Decidueye has more potential than using grass moves too. Especially when Ivysaur doesn't go all-out on them either and he's part of Trainer's gimmick again. I don't think Ivysaur being grass lessens Cids chances to thenpoint where Lycanrocs a frontrunner
But the point remains, a second character built around a particular element is inherently less compelling than one built around an element that is now completely absent in Smash, what with Charizard losing his down special.
 
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Precisely. And I'd argue something like elemental affinity is the crux of a Pokémon character's moveset, something the developers consider very important.

Plus, most of Ivysaur's attacks involve prehensile vines, so it's not quite the same as a completely feral fighter.


But the point remains, a second character built around a particular element is inherently less compelling than one built around an element that is now completely absent in Smash, what with Charizard losing his down special.
And vine-whipping is not the same as an archer with ghostly elements.
Playing devil's advocate here, but with Charizard being part of Pokémon Trainer again, Incineroar could come forward as standalone fire starter.

I do dare to say that Lycanroc is a frontrunner, but its not because of the green noodles of one-third of a character destroying Cids chances
 
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In my opinion, every Pokemon just took a massive blow in chance, more than other characters (the less newcomers comment has made me wary of every characters chances)

We now have a whopping 9 playable Pokemon. I could definitely see it taking a break this time. 10 is a lot of characters, even for Pokemon.
 
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The thing is, Pokemon has four VETERANS not newcomers. People have already experienced them before and don’t really require a lot of work since the stuff is there, just some updating and fixing.

Lycanroc will be something fresh and new after many people have been anticipating a Gen 7 Pokémon newcomer. It’s great that Pokémon Trainer and Pichu is back, but people will wonder what happened to the Gen 7 mon they were expecting (and wanting).
It's still four characters, and any newcomer for any series would be "fresh and new" because people have been anticipating so many new characters, it's not just Lycanroc. Also PT took quite a bit of work as Squirtle and Ivysaur are completely unique and missed four and couldn't just be ported over (from brawl to Ultimate).

It's great that the whole roster of veterans is back but people are going to wonder what happened to any newcomer, not just the Pokémon one after it already got three veterans back. I'm expecting them to distribute newcomers if there's not many, and Pokémon certainly has enough characters.
 
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It's not about the characters' potential, it's about how Pokémon just got three characters and to give it a fourth (the third unique one) character would be excessive in a game where newcomers are limited. That's why I don't think he's happening and I never thought he was happening because I knew Squirtle and Ivysaur were returning.

Since this is Ultimate, they're going to want to pander to all fans, not just Pokémon fans. That's why we're getting alt costumes like Galacta Knight. Lycanroc will probably be skipped over as Pokémon got three characters back and there's characters from other series that could be just as unique as he could. Why pander to Pokémon fans with a fourth character when Xenoblade only has one and Rhythm Heaven doesn't even have one?
 
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RandomAce

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It's not about the characters' potential, it's about how Pokémon just got three characters and to give it a fourth (the third unique one) character would be excessive in a game where newcomers are limited. That's why I don't think he's happening and I never thought he was happening because I knew Squirtle and Ivysaur were returning.

Since this is Ultimate, they're going to want to pander to all fans, not just Pokémon fans. That's why we're getting alt costumes like Galacta Knight. Lycanroc will probably be skipped over as Pokémon got three characters back and there's characters from other series that could be just as unique as he could. Why pander to Pokémon fans with a fourth character when Xenoblade only has one and Rhythm Heaven doesn't even have one?
Xenoblade is likley to get 2 characters at this point, Rhythm Heaven is already likley anyways.

We can have Lycanroc join while adding Xenoblade and RH characters, it’s not like Lycanroc is going to STEAL a Xenoblade slot or Rhythm Heaven slot, those were bound to happen at this point. Having Pichu and PKMN Trainer doesn’t take away the value of Lycanroc, by the seems of it people already forgot about Pichu, and PKMN Trainer is considered 1 character not 3.

You simply cannot count both Veterans and Newcomers together. Both are very different processes on how they select characters to return and enter, and it doesn’t even matter since everyone was planned to come back in the first place.

Looking at newcomers alone, Lycanroc is ONE newcomer out of potential 10 unrevealed newcomers. That’s not a lot when the rest of the slots can go to relevant characters, ballot picks, a retro, and a dormant IP that can satisfy many.
 
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Delzethin

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It's not about the characters' potential, it's about how Pokémon just got three characters and to give it a fourth (the third unique one) character would be excessive in a game where newcomers are limited. That's why I don't think he's happening and I never thought he was happening because I knew Squirtle and Ivysaur were returning.

Since this is Ultimate, they're going to want to pander to all fans, not just Pokémon fans. That's why we're getting alt costumes like Galacta Knight. Lycanroc will probably be skipped over as Pokémon got three characters back and there's characters from other series that could be just as unique as he could. Why pander to Pokémon fans with a fourth character when Xenoblade only has one and Rhythm Heaven doesn't even have one?
Okay, I think I see where you're coming from here. I remember feeling the same way in the past.

Thing is, Sakurai doesn't actually view the roster in terms of "reps". Bringing in a newcomer from a larger series doesn't preclude any from smaller ones from happening--it all comes down to how much they can fit into the development cycle and what the team is up to the task for. Adding a Pokémon newcomer despite the veterans all returning wouldn't be pandering to Pokémon fans any more than adding Elma or Rex & Pyra would be pandering to Xenoblade fans, it'd be because the characters in question were deemed worth adding on their own merits. And I say that as someone who's a fan of both series, haha.

So, don't worry. There wouldn't be any bias at play were Lycanroc chosen despite Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu being back, and I don't think anyone else in here views characters from other franchises as competition.


On a different note, the existence of Echo Fighters as a prominent feature brings up an interesting possibility: What if we get one Lycanroc form as a base character...and one or two others as echoes of them? What if that might be yet another thing that made Lycanroc more compelling for Sakurai and crew, using the new designation for clones as a chance to be inclusive with newcomers as well as veterans?

I don't know how likely it is...but it's something worth considering.
 
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Okay, I think I see where you're coming from here. I remember feeling the same way in the past.

Thing is, Sakurai doesn't actually view the roster in terms of "reps". Bringing in a newcomer from a larger series doesn't preclude any from smaller ones from happening--it all comes down to how much they can fit into the development cycle and what the team is up to the task for. Adding a Pokémon newcomer despite the veterans all returning wouldn't be pandering to Pokémon fans any more than adding Elma or Rex & Pyra would be pandering to Xenoblade fans, it'd be because the characters in question were deemed worth adding on their own merits. And I say that as someone who's a fan of both series, haha.

So, don't worry. There wouldn't be any bias at play were Lycanroc chosen despite Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu being back, and I don't think anyone else in here views characters from other franchises as competition.


On a different note, the existence of Echo Fighters as a prominent feature brings up an interesting possibility: What if we get one Lycanroc form as a base character...and one or two others as echoes of them? What if that might be yet another thing that made Lycanroc more compelling for Sakurai and crew, using the new designation for clones as a chance to be inclusive with newcomers as well as veterans?

I don't know how likely it is...but it's something worth considering.
Yeah it doesn't preclude any from smaller ones, but my fear is just that Lycanroc would be looked over in favor of smaller ones. Despite Corrin being arguably the most unique swordsman Smash has ever seen, and the first shapeshifter/transformer to be playable, because Fire Emblem already had 5 characters Sakurai at first hesitated with Corrin and wasn't sure if she should really get in.

That's what I think will happen with Lycanroc. I love this rock doggo, but it only took 5 characters for Sakurai to start hesitating with Fire Emblem. As it stands, Pokemon has nine. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucario, and Greninja. That's why I think Lycanroc would be looked over, since Pokemon already has plenty of characters on the roster and Sakurai & co. may want to add more characters from other series should they get the chance.

Though if Lycanroc does get in, I won't complain lol. I'm just a bit worried for his chances right now :^(

Xenoblade is likley to get 2 characters at this point, Rhythm Heaven is already likley anyways.

We can have Lycanroc join while adding Xenoblade and RH characters, it’s not like Lycanroc is going to STEAL a Xenoblade slot or Rhythm Heaven slot, those were bound to happen at this point. Having Pichu and PKMN Trainer doesn’t take away the value of Lycanroc, by the seems of it people already forgot about Pichu, and PKMN Trainer is considered 1 character not 3.

You simply cannot count both Veterans and Newcomers together. Both are very different processes on how they select characters to return and enter, and it doesn’t even matter since everyone was planned to come back in the first place.

Looking at newcomers alone, Lycanroc is ONE newcomer out of potential 10 unrevealed newcomers. That’s not a lot when the rest of the slots can go to relevant characters, ballot picks, a retro, and a dormant IP that can satisfy many.
Good points, although I would like to say that PT is equivalent to three characters (a bit less than three technically because they all share the same down special lol) development wise.

I guess my main fear is the limited newcomer quantity and that Pokemon isn't getting any more characters because of it. But we can wait see, for all we know Lycanroc could be revealed like next week :joyful:
 

Cosmic77

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I don't think Sakurai should be too concerned about the number of Pokemon reps as long as the Mario series can come close to matching it. Honestly, there aren't too many franchises as popular, iconic, and deserving of a character as Pokemon, and I don't see a good reason for to Sakurai to force himself to avoid what should be an easy addition.
 

RandomAce

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Yeah it doesn't preclude any from smaller ones, but my fear is just that Lycanroc would be looked over in favor of smaller ones. Despite Corrin being arguably the most unique swordsman Smash has ever seen, and the first shapeshifter/transformer to be playable, because Fire Emblem already had 5 characters Sakurai at first hesitated with Corrin and wasn't sure if she should really get in.

That's what I think will happen with Lycanroc. I love this rock doggo, but it only took 5 characters for Sakurai to start hesitating with Fire Emblem. As it stands, Pokemon has nine. Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Pichu, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Lucario, and Greninja. That's why I think Lycanroc would be looked over, since Pokemon already has plenty of characters on the roster and Sakurai & co. may want to add more characters from other series should they get the chance.

Though if Lycanroc does get in, I won't complain lol. I'm just a bit worried for his chances right now :^(


Good points, although I would like to say that PT is equivalent to three characters (a bit less than three technically because they all share the same down special lol) development wise.

I guess my main fear is the limited newcomer quantity and that Pokemon isn't getting any more characters because of it. But we can wait see, for all we know Lycanroc could be revealed like next week :joyful:
I hope so too, but Pokémon is considered to have 7 characters, since development wise Charizard assets were already in the game, and PKMN trainer’s assets could’ve easily been reused and updated (this also goes for all returning veterans, bar Wolf) So it probably didn’t took that long to develop them. So Sakurai most likely sees Lycanroc as our 8th Pokemon character.

A Gen 7th pokemon is an obvious inclusion since it was a hit in 2016, so and with there being many so pokemon, if there is one series to usually get another character, it’s Pokémon.
 
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I hope so too, but Pokémon is considered to have 7 characters, since development wise Charizard assets were already in the game, and PKMN trainer’s assets could’ve easily been reused and updated (this also goes for all returning veterans, bar Wolf) So it probably didn’t took that long to develop them. So Sakurai most likely sees Lycanroc as our 8th Pokemon character.

A Gen 7th pokemon is an obvious inclusion since it was a hit in 2016, so and with there being many so pokemon, if there is one series to usually get another character, it’s Pokémon.
How could PT's assets been reused and updated but not Wolf's? Squirtle, Ivy and Wolf all missed out on 4 so I think that they would have needed to be made from the ground up. but idk i could be wrong and i hope i am, a rock doggo is too good to pass :laugh: and based off of history Pokemon may still get a new character (it got four new ones in brawl lol)
 

RandomAce

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How could PT's assets been reused and updated but not Wolf's? Squirtle, Ivy and Wolf all missed out on 4 so I think that they would have needed to be made from the ground up. but idk i could be wrong and i hope i am, a rock doggo is too good to pass :laugh: and based off of history Pokemon may still get a new character (it got four new ones in brawl lol)
No, I meant that Wolf was the only veteran to get a new model and revamped move set. PKMN Trainer didn’t get that and was reused and updated.
 

RandomAce

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Okay, I think I see where you're coming from here. I remember feeling the same way in the past.

Thing is, Sakurai doesn't actually view the roster in terms of "reps". Bringing in a newcomer from a larger series doesn't preclude any from smaller ones from happening--it all comes down to how much they can fit into the development cycle and what the team is up to the task for. Adding a Pokémon newcomer despite the veterans all returning wouldn't be pandering to Pokémon fans any more than adding Elma or Rex & Pyra would be pandering to Xenoblade fans, it'd be because the characters in question were deemed worth adding on their own merits. And I say that as someone who's a fan of both series, haha.

So, don't worry. There wouldn't be any bias at play were Lycanroc chosen despite Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Pichu being back, and I don't think anyone else in here views characters from other franchises as competition.


On a different note, the existence of Echo Fighters as a prominent feature brings up an interesting possibility: What if we get one Lycanroc form as a base character...and one or two others as echoes of them? What if that might be yet another thing that made Lycanroc more compelling for Sakurai and crew, using the new designation for clones as a chance to be inclusive with newcomers as well as veterans?

I don't know how likely it is...but it's something worth considering.
Wouldn’t it be impossible for Midnight form? It’s bipedal after all. But it would work for Midday.
 

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Wouldn’t it be impossible for Midnight form? It’s bipedal after all. But it would work for Midday.
Yeah, Midnight would require enough extra work that it'd only be an echo in name only and function more like a semi-clone. The idea isn't without its flaws, but I wanted it out there as an option for people to talk about nonetheless.
 
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Sid-cada

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Okay, I'm not certain if I should place this here or in the RTC thread, but here I think it will be where it is more visible where it matters. I still have a feeling that Decidueye or someone else might be more likely, but if you can change my thoughts on this maybe you can convince me.


So, while we don't know how far in advance Sakurai would have picked a Pokemon, I think we can agree that concept art is very important on which Pokemon will be chosen. We know Greninja was chosen entirely based on concept art alone, and a good piece of concept art can help really sell a character. It is meant to give a quick look at how they are supposed to be portrayed.

Let's look at Greninja's concept art, because we know specifically that is why he got in.



Here we see Greninja's personality reasonably well. He's throwing water shuriken, performing a ninja technique on the very left, and resting by leaning back on a tree, a stock ninja pose. A frog that can perform both ninja techniques and water control is an easy sell for a fighter.


Compared to the most likely forms that Lycanroc will be in, and they are well... bad. As in, "if I didn't know better I would think they might be normal types" bad. In fact, Dusk's concept art is just Midday's edited.




They don't show any abilities, and their posses lack much in the way of personality. Midday and Dusk look stern, angry, maybe noble... and that's about it. You have to squint a bit to even see their rock typing. Midnight is better, with that sadistic grin, creepy glowing eye, and that wild movement punching out Lucario, but I think we all agree that that form is the least likely one to get in. Plus, it makes him look more like a dark type, with not a hint of his rock type.

Compare this to the concept art of several other Pokemon, and you can really feel the lack of flavor Lycanroc compared to his competitors.



Decidueye shows quite a bit of personality here. We see how his bow is supposed to function, he's preening his feathers in that colorless pose, he's wagging his finger at us with his eyes closed as if saying "No no no", he's tightening his hood in either embarrassment or anger. You can get a good sense of his grass typing as well via his color scheme and the fact that much of his design looks to incorporate leaves. A grass owl with a serious archer persona? Sounds neat.



Primarina shows a clear water type with the color scheme and . She has elements of mermaids and is clearly singing as if giving an aria, giving her a mystical, siren-like appeal. She has bubbles while singing, which we can use to make a fairly unique fighter. She also appears super graceful, as even her "angry" pose conveys more annoyance than true frustration. A graceful mermaid that can sing to control bubbles? Sounds interesting.



One look at Incineroar and you can already tell it's a fire-wrestler. He has a strong, intimidating personality; just look at that smug grin, or that ferocious yell. Look at how he's using wrestling moves while on-fire, and using his belt to emit a spining flame. It also looks like he's using a table, which makes him more of a dirty fighter. A fire-wielding cat that usses dirty wresting tricks? Maybe some overlap with fighters already in, but he still could be a fighter.



Even when it's not showing us what's underneath the sheet, something definitely looks a little off about Mimikyu. From it's looks there's definitely something underneath that raggedy sheet, something that's spooky and horrifying, which we can see striking us while showing it's true eyes shining. Still, its somewhat uneven appearance make it look kinda cute, a good contrast to the thing underneath. A cute bead sheet ghost that has some strange dark creature hiding in it? An intriguing fighter concept.



Nihilego already shows it's parasitic, mind-controlling properties with a Pikachu, and about to do the same to Lusamine, seeming shapeshifting it to match. It looks strange and ethereal, more otherworldly compared to many of Smash's other fighters and especially Pokemon. You can even see its little girl like mannerisms it is described in the dex, seeing how it has its "knees" close together or how its holding its "hands" together while singing. An alien parasitic jellyfish? A fighter out of that ought to be very unique.



Even Alolan Raichu, disconfirmed as he may be, shows more personality than Lycanroc. We see him making use of his surfboard tail while flying mid-air. We can also see his playful side with him summoning a star made of electricity. An electric surfer who flies in the air? That's a cool concept.

When a Pokeball Pokemon has more characterization in their artwork than Lycanroc... it honestly makes them feel pretty boring.


Now, that's not all that goes into choosing a fighter, but if they were choosing one concept art would probably be one of the first places they would look. Given how flavorless Lycanroc looks, I don't see how Sakurai would find him an interesting fighter. While there may be more interesting pieces of concept art, this is all we have to go on, you can't prove that there is a more interesting piece, and there could be another piece for another Pokemon that would be more interesting than what Lycanroc's hypothetical better picture.
 
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Part of me would feel with that but given the fact timeline wise it is far more likely PC and GF would know they were gonna push lycanroc. We can see how much they plan in advance in those concept art as it’s for the anime which is planned way in advance. As such, I feel PC and Gf would push lycanroc.

Also part of why Greninja was chosen via concept art is due to gen 6 being in an awkward spot for choosing a rep. Gen 7 is not tbh.
 
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Very very interesting point in regards to concept art. Honestly, I do not have a solid counter argument against the concept art not being very attracting for Lycanroc except maybe for Midnight form. Maybe Delzethin has something to say on the matter.
 
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Now that Pichu is back, what Pokemon I wanted to use is here so honestly what we get onwards is just a bonus for me but if I had to lend my support to one new Pokemon it would be Lycanroc as the other two simply don't appeal to me as much, then there's also the fact the Dusk form has really grown on me(even though the chances of Dusk being the main one are almost none becuase of timing).
 

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Maybe Delzethin has something to say on the matter.
In fact, I do.

Okay, I'm not certain if I should place this here or in the RTC thread, but here I think it will be where it is more visible where it matters. I still have a feeling that Decidueye or someone else might be more likely, but if you can change my thoughts on this maybe you can convince me.


So, while we don't know how far in advance Sakurai would have picked a Pokemon, I think we can agree that concept art is very important on which Pokemon will be chosen. We know Greninja was chosen entirely based on concept art alone, and a good piece of concept art can help really sell a character. It is meant to give a quick look at how they are supposed to be portrayed.

Let's look at Greninja's concept art, because we know specifically that is why he got in.



Here we see Greninja's personality reasonably well. He's throwing water shuriken, performing a ninja technique on the very left, and resting by leaning back on a tree, a stock ninja pose. A frog that can perform both ninja techniques and water control is an easy sell for a fighter.


Compared to the most likely forms that Lycanroc will be in, and they are well... bad. As in, "if I didn't know better I would think they might be normal types" bad. In fact, Dusk's concept art is just Midday's edited.




They don't show any abilities, and their posses lack much in the way of personality. Midday and Dusk look stern, angry, maybe noble... and that's about it. You have to squint a bit to even see their rock typing. Midnight is better, with that sadistic grin, creepy glowing eye, and that wild movement punching out Lucario, but I think we all agree that that form is the least likely one to get in. Plus, it makes him look more like a dark type, with not a hint of his rock type.

Compare this to the concept art of several other Pokemon, and you can really feel the lack of flavor Lycanroc compared to his competitors.



Decidueye shows quite a bit of personality here. We see how his bow is supposed to function, he's preening his feathers in that colorless pose, he's wagging his finger at us with his eyes closed as if saying "No no no", he's tightening his hood in either embarrassment or anger. You can get a good sense of his grass typing as well via his color scheme and the fact that much of his design looks to incorporate leaves. A grass owl with a serious archer persona? Sounds neat.



Primarina shows a clear water type with the color scheme and . She has elements of mermaids and is clearly singing as if giving an aria, giving her a mystical, siren-like appeal. She has bubbles while singing, which we can use to make a fairly unique fighter. She also appears super graceful, as even her "angry" pose conveys more annoyance than true frustration. A graceful mermaid that can sing to control bubbles? Sounds interesting.



One look at Incineroar and you can already tell it's a fire-wrestler. He has a strong, intimidating personality; just look at that smug grin, or that ferocious yell. Look at how he's using wrestling moves while on-fire, and using his belt to emit a spining flame. It also looks like he's using a table, which makes him more of a dirty fighter. A fire-wielding cat that usses dirty wresting tricks? Maybe some overlap with fighters already in, but he still could be a fighter.



Even when it's not showing us what's underneath the sheet, something definitely looks a little off about Mimikyu. From it's looks there's definitely something underneath that raggedy sheet, something that's spooky and horrifying, which we can see striking us while showing it's true eyes shining. Still, its somewhat uneven appearance make it look kinda cute, a good contrast to the thing underneath. A cute bead sheet ghost that has some strange dark creature hiding in it? An intriguing fighter concept.



Nihilego already shows it's parasitic, mind-controlling properties with a Pikachu, and about to do the same to Lusamine, seeming shapeshifting it to match. It looks strange and ethereal, more otherworldly compared to many of Smash's other fighters and especially Pokemon. You can even see its little girl like mannerisms it is described in the dex, seeing how it has its "knees" close together or how its holding its "hands" together while singing. An alien parasitic jellyfish? A fighter out of that ought to be very unique.



Even Alolan Raichu, disconfirmed as he may be, shows more personality than Lycanroc. We see him making use of his surfboard tail while flying mid-air. We can also see his playful side with him summoning a star made of electricity. An electric surfer who flies in the air? That's a cool concept.

When a Pokeball Pokemon has more characterization in their artwork than Lycanroc... it honestly makes them feel pretty boring.


Now, that's not all that goes into choosing a fighter, but if they were choosing one concept art would probably be one of the first places they would look. Given how flavorless Lycanroc looks, I don't see how Sakurai would find him an interesting fighter. While there may be more interesting pieces of concept art, this is all we have to go on, you can't prove that there is a more interesting piece, and there could be another piece for another Pokemon that would be more interesting than what Lycanroc's hypothetical better picture.
So, consider this from TPC's standpoint. A new Smash game is in the works, and Sakurai calls up and asks for options for newcomers or Poké Ball summons. Would you want him to make those decisions solely based on concept art? Helpful they might be, but a couple sheets of paper with drawings on them can only tell you so much. You'd be running the risk of the Smash devs misinterpreting something and the final product showcasing some 'mons acting in ways that aren't true to their identity.

And that's what I think people keep overlooking here: There's no way in hell these decisions are made using just concept art. From a designer's perspective, there must also be design notes, lore, and other details that are sent over as well. If I were part of TPC, I'd want Sakurai and his team to have as clear a picture as possible of who these 'mons are, how they act, and what they are capable of. After all, none of this concept art depicts the full extent of each 'mon's moveset, and Greninja has plenty of attacks straight from the games that are not depicted in the art! And that's not even considering how much other artwork there must be that we haven't seen--were you in their shoes, would you really want a production this ambitious to rely on a single reference sheet for so much?

The story the fans have spread may go that Greninja was built using just a sheet of concept art...but using logic and thinking like a designer tells us there must have been more that we haven't seen. It just makes sense.

And the odds are very high that they had everything set up for Gen 7 when Sakurai called them up, because:
Also part of why Greninja was chosen via concept art is due to gen 6 being in an awkward spot for choosing a rep. Gen 7 is not tbh.
Precisely. Gen 6 was still more than a year off when Smash 4 development started, and many of the generation's new Pokémon wouldn't have been finished yet. This is what necessitated using a placeholder, coming back to it later, then relying on design documents rather than the finished product. Smash Ultimate development started when Gen 7 was close to finished, at a point where its new Pokémon would've already been finalized. They wouldn't have needed to rely on that concept art when it came to deciding who to include, because they'd have had the full scope of details available to them right away. Even Dusk Lycanroc was probably designed by that point, considering there were placeholders for additional Lycanroc forms on the Global Link as soon as it was updated for Gen 7, a few days before Sun and Moon released!

As you can see...things aren't as simple as they may initially seem.
 
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Greninja's design process in Smash was an anomaly specifically created by the unusual timing-related circumstances that we know are radically different in Smash Ultimate. Using specifically Greninja's inclusion to create an ill-fitting pattern for a situation with different timing is a logical fallacy
 

Fuzzy Pickles!

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I saw Delzethin Delzethin 's post on Lycanroc today at Rate Their Chance and I have to admit, these are really solid arguments for Lycanroc getting in and how he would be an unique characters. I'm still not totally on board with supporting him, mind you, but I see him as a lot better choice than Decidueye.

I have a feeling we're going to see the 7th gen Pokémon reveal next month. We'll see who gets in but I honestly think Lycanroc is now a frontrunner.
 
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GM_3826

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Concept art is irrelevant in this case since Pokemon Sun and Moon has been out long enough that Game Freak, Nintendo, the Pokemon Company and Sakurai would be well aware of who was popular during Super Smash Bros. development and so wouldn't need to base their decision on who had the best concept art.
 

Delzethin

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So...I think RTC showed front and center how defensive everyone is right now. After hearing Sakurai say not to expect "too many new fighters", people are jumping to conclusions, convinced it must mean only 2 or 3 newcomers must be left despite us having no proof of it. It's causing many to look for any reason to dismiss other characters in order to convince themselves that their favorites still have a chance.

I don't know how everyone in here is feeling right now...but be aware of the sentiment going forward. People are going to be a lot harder to convince now, even if you point out how Sakurai said the same damn thing when Smash 4 development started and that game ended up with a substantial amount of newcomers even before DLC. While it's fair to reason that the focus they've put on returning content means we may not see as much new stuff as usual, I think assuming we'll see hardly any, as if any newcomers would pale in importance to veteran fighters, would be a fallacy.


But before I forget again...
Now that Pichu is back, what Pokemon I wanted to use is here so honestly what we get onwards is just a bonus for me but if I had to lend my support to one new Pokemon it would be Lycanroc as the other two simply don't appeal to me as much, then there's also the fact the Dusk form has really grown on me(even though the chances of Dusk being the main one are almost none becuase of timing).
Welcome! Actually, Dusk Lycanroc has a more plausible chance than you'd think. They'd have had to plan the anime out far in advance, and the PGL had space for more forms as soon as it was updated for Gen 7. This points toward Dusk's design probably dating back to 2016.

Concept art is irrelevant in this case since Pokemon Sun and Moon has been out long enough that Game Freak, Nintendo, the Pokemon Company and Sakurai would be well aware of who was popular during Super Smash Bros. development and so wouldn't need to base their decision on who had the best concept art.
You're right about them not needing to rely on concept art, but careful about leaning on popularity for your argument. For whatever reason, most of the Smash fanbase assumes newcomers are supposed to be chosen based on who "the fans" approve of, when we've seen repeatedly that it's not so simple.


Hard to say how long we'll be waiting for more news, but in the meantime, I called in a favor and now we have a stock icon! Props to Fire_Voyager Fire_Voyager for going out of his way to make it.

 
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So...I think RTC showed front and center how defensive everyone is right now. After hearing Sakurai say not to expect "too many new fighters", people are jumping to conclusions, convinced it must mean only 2 or 3 newcomers must be left despite us having no proof of it. It's causing many to look for any reason to dismiss other characters in order to convince themselves that their favorites still have a chance.

I don't know how everyone in here is feeling right now...but be aware of the sentiment going forward. People are going to be a lot harder to convince now, even if you point out how Sakurai said the same damn thing when Smash 4 development started and that game ended up with a substantial amount of newcomers even before DLC. While it's fair to reason that the focus they've put on returning content means we may not see as much new stuff as usual, I think assuming we'll see hardly any, as if any newcomers would pale in importance to veteran fighters, would be a fallacy.


But before I forget again...


Welcome! Actually, Dusk Lycanroc has a more plausible chance than you'd think. They'd have had to plan the anime out far in advance, and the PGL had space for more forms as soon as it was updated for Gen 7. This points toward Dusk's design probably dating back to 2016.



You're right about them not needing to rely on concept art, but careful about leaning on popularity for your argument. For whatever reason, most of the Smash fanbase assumes newcomers are supposed to be chosen based on who "the fans" approve of, when we've seen repeatedly that it's not so simple.


Hard to say how long we'll be waiting for more news, but in the meantime, I called in a favor and now we have a stock icon! Props to Fire_Voyager Fire_Voyager for going out of his way to make it.

I hope you're right, if another Greninja case pops up, I hope it's with Lycanroc, good luck everyone!
 
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If any Lycanroc got in, I'd assume it'd be Dusk or nothing. But personally I think Lyranroc is least likely out of the Pokemon reps. I know most people think Decidueye, Mimikyu or Incineroar but my gut is telling me Zeraora. I think the choice is going to come down to promotion and Zeraora fits the bill on that part. Personally I'd prefer Decidueye or Duskroc but Zeraora wouldn't be too bad.
 

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You're right about them not needing to rely on concept art, but careful about leaning on popularity for your argument. For whatever reason, most of the Smash fanbase assumes newcomers are supposed to be chosen based on who "the fans" approve of, when we've seen repeatedly that it's not so simple.
I agree that Lycanroc has a decent shot but this Smash game is a different beast from anything else we've seen. The content we do have indicates that Ultimate's premier goal is about pleasing the fans. Obviously there was the Smash Ballot, an official popularity poll literally asking for what fighters fans wanted. The significance of that cannot be understated, but listening to the specific wording in the Direct and other lines from Sakurai at E3 paints a clear picture that he wants to make the most amount of fans happy. Why is Ridley in the game, despite Sakurai not even knowing if he could make it work at first? Because of the sheer volume of fan demand for the space dragon in the West. The reasoning for bringing back every single veteran? Because they "believe that's what players want". The veteran thing actually makes a ton of sense in retrospect because looking back at random ballot polls shows that veterans across the board had pretty inflated scores just because they were already in Smash. Admittedly while these polls are not scientific or accurate, looking at a bunch of them can give you a general idea of who people wanted.

Diving more into speculation territory, I would wager that the only reason Daisy was added (besides being an easy addition) was because she did well on the ballot. Like her or hate her she has a pretty sizable following among Mario spinoff fans, which comprise a very large audience. Inklings were also really popular, but they were an obvious addition anyway. If you believe that Vergeben is right about Simon, then you can add one more character to the list of fighters who supposedly did well on the Smash Ballot.

Now even though Lycanroc wouldn't have received any votes in the Smash Ballot, I don't believe he's an impossibility. He's clearly the premier Pokemon of Gen 7 and was therefore created to be popular in the same vein Lucario and Zoroark were. Pokemon is one of Nintendo's largest franchises and pretty much anything that is popular within that series already has a ton of fans right off the bat. Going off of sales alone SM sold over 16 million copies and was pretty much guaranteed to be a smash hit just because it's Pokemon. Compare this number with smaller franchises and Lycanroc is arguably more well known by Nintendo fans in general than other characters viewed as more likely by the Smash community. And even though this doesn't need to be said I highly doubt we get a non Gen-7 Pokemon. Characters like Sceptile had their small bandwagons because ORAS was relevant but from most polls I've seen they didn't do all that hotly, and even then their active support has faded in lieu of a new generation. Besides, their time in the spotlight is over and TPC would want new blood in the game. If we get a new Pokemon like every other Smash game Lycanroc is the clear frontrunner.
 
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Delzethin

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I agree that Lycanroc has a decent shot but this Smash game is a different beast from anything else we've seen. The content we do have indicates that Ultimate's premier goal is about pleasing the fans. Obviously there was the Smash Ballot, an official popularity poll literally asking for what fighters fans wanted. The significance of that cannot be understated, but listening to the specific wording in the Direct and other lines from Sakurai at E3 paints a clear picture that he wants to make the most amount of fans happy. Why is Ridley in the game, despite Sakurai not even knowing if he could make it work at first? Because of the sheer volume of fan demand for the space dragon in the West. The reasoning for bringing back every single veteran? Because they "believe that's what players want". The veteran thing actually makes a ton of sense in retrospect because looking back at random ballot polls shows that veterans across the board had pretty inflated scores just because they were already in Smash. Admittedly while these polls are not scientific or accurate, looking at a bunch of them can give you a general idea of who people wanted.

Diving more into speculation territory, I would wager that the only reason Daisy was added (besides being an easy addition) was because she did well on the ballot. Like her or hate her she has a pretty sizable following among Mario spinoff fans, which comprise a very large audience. Inklings were also really popular, but they were an obvious addition anyway. If you believe that Vergeben is right about Simon, then you can add one more character to the list of fighters who supposedly did well on the Smash Ballot.
Thing is, I think people may be extrapolating too far with the whole "fan service" thing. Sure, there're things that point toward Ultimate deliberately throwing bones toward the fans, but now half the fanbase is going around acting like the biggest deciding factor now is who we the fans already approve of. It's a hasty generalization, and one that ignores the big picture in favor of what certain factions want to believe. It seems like they're driven by the feeling that they suddenly have complete control over who gets in and who doesn't, when the truth is (probably) not that simple. That feeling of power is tempting to hang on to.

Thing with Ridley is...I'm not so sure his popularity was the breaking point. It may have moved him up in priority, but look at everything he had going for him beyond that! He's prominent in his series, relevant thanks to Samus Returns, had moveset potential to work with and several unique abilities through interpreting his attack in all the boss fights he's had. The only roadblock was how Sakurai and his team hadn't been able to figure out a character concept for him that felt true to character, but this time they finally did, and popularity could not have affected that in particular. Fan support may have helped Ridley, but it couldn't have forced Sakurai to include him the way you've probably seen some speculators claim elsewhere, because he wouldn't have been chosen at all if Sakurai didn't think they had a good enough concept for him. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if we've been misinterpreting what the Smash Ballot will do this whole time.

As it stands, I recommend second-guessing the popular narrative right now that, well, popularity will determine everything going forward. Especially since it overlooks the idea that there could be characters out there they'd really like but have just never given a fair shake yet, something Sakurai has been aware of in the past. It's especially pertinent for us, since that is exactly where we stand right now. I don't know about you, but I'd be frustrated as hell if it turned out we never had a shot at all solely because we didn't have a bandwagon four years ago.
 
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Thing is, I think people may be extrapolating too far with the whole "fan service" thing. Sure, there're things that point toward Ultimate deliberately throwing bones toward the fans, but now half the fanbase is going around acting like the biggest deciding factor now is who we the fans already approve of. It's a hasty generalization, and one that ignores the big picture in favor of what certain factions want to believe. It seems like they're driven by the feeling that they suddenly have complete control over who gets in and who doesn't, when the truth is (probably) not that simple. That feeling of power is tempting to hang on to.

Thing with Ridley is...I'm not so sure his popularity was the breaking point. It may have moved him up in priority, but look at everything he had going for him beyond that! He's prominent in his series, relevant thanks to Samus Returns, had moveset potential to work with and several unique abilities through interpreting his attack in all the boss fights he's had. The only roadblock was how Sakurai and his team hadn't been able to figure out a character concept for him that felt true to character, but this time they finally did, and popularity could not have affected that in particular. Fan support may have helped Ridley, but it couldn't have forced Sakurai to include him the way you've probably seen some speculators claim elsewhere, because he wouldn't have been chosen at all if Sakurai didn't think they had a good enough concept for him. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if we've been misinterpreting what the Smash Ballot will do this whole time.

As it stands, I recommend second-guessing the popular narrative right now that, well, popularity will determine everything going forward. Especially since it overlooks the idea that there could be characters out there they'd really like but have just never given a fair shake yet, something Sakurai has been aware of in the past. It's especially pertinent for us, since that is exactly where we stand right now. I don't know about you, but I'd be frustrated as hell if it turned out we never had a shot at all solely because we didn't have a bandwagon four years ago.
I partly agree
Inkling, Ridley and to a lesser extent Daisy showed us a few hints as to what the roster will entail, but it showed us far from everything.

While we know now that Inklings are entirely based on their Splatoon 1 counterparts, even being able to pinpoint the timing through the use of the Slosher, Inkling itself was a character that transcended the regular categories by being a relevant and new series that also rose to immediate prominence.

Ridley, while his design shows he's not solely based on the Newest Thing and his moveset isn't as spectacularly over the top as people predicted would be the case following Smash 4, is still a popular and important character.
Ridley specifically was shot down quite a few times, but returned each time to the speculation scene and appearantly, Sakurai's design table. He already had the relevance, moveset potential and reoccuring role in the series as Samus's archnemesis, so it's not out of left field to think that it was the continuing popularity that made Sakurai as persistent with this character as Samus' nemesis himself.

I also believe you're heavily overstating the "hasty" and "extrapolating" part of the fanbase. I've seen the sentiment mostly with K. Rool fans, who for all intents and purposes was always the Dastardly Duo, the little birds of the same feather of speculation, with Ridley and the fact that Sakurai mentioned Ridley's popularity was part of the deal is something K. Rool fans can celebrate over.

Likewise, I don't know who you mean with the "we" in "we misinterpreted the ballot"
The ballot being a suggestion box moreso than a vote was a prevalent idea in Smash DLC speculation.

Even moreso, you've based your reasoning for this system based on the shown Assist Trophies, which is as overhasty of a generalisation if not moreso than K. Rool fans celebrating the character that was a brother-in-arms of the Kutthroats.
If we look at ballot candidates, there's plenty of characters that struck the same mid-tier support as Krystal and Bomberman. Paper Mario, Captain Toad and the DK Duo of Dixie and K. Rool, Ashley, Takamaru, Isabelle and a slew of third parties and most importantly, veterans, all got significant support. Reshaping the entire view of the ballot based on Krystal and Bomberman being ATs, even though we know the ballot landscape is unpredictable and includes quite a big range of characters, is the most "overhasting generalisation" I've seen in the community.
 

GM_3826

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You're right about them not needing to rely on concept art, but careful about leaning on popularity for your argument. For whatever reason, most of the Smash fanbase assumes newcomers are supposed to be chosen based on who "the fans" approve of, when we've seen repeatedly that it's not so simple.
I agree, but popularity is likely to be a tie breaker in this case since Gen VII doesn't really have one iconic Pokemon like how Generation IV has Lucario. Not guaranteed, but I have no idea what other factors Sakurai would base his choice on.
 
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