Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

Delzethin

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#745 - Lycanroc


Overview

Lycanroc is a wolflike Rock-type Pokémon from the series' 7th generation, debuting in Pokémon Sun and Moon. The species bears the unique trait of having three different possible forms depending on the conditions it evolves in: the pacifistic Midday, the battle-thirsty Midnight, or the rare Dusk form that combines attributes of both. Despite a slow start at first, Lycanroc has risen rapidly in prominence and popularity since Sun and Moon first launched, growing into its generation's counterpart to Lucario and Zoroark and becoming a prime candidate for Super Smash Bros.

Why Lycanroc?

If you're looking for someone who is not only is fresh and interesting, but combines many unique traits into something no other potential newcomer can match, then you're in the right place.

First, and most obvious, is Lycanroc's nature as a Rock type--basically, it means earth-elemental powers. Earth as a whole is almost completely untouched by Smash so far, its only appearances being in Charizard's Rock Smash and the occasional move with a burying effect. This mastery over a yet-untapped element makes Lycanroc inherently unique and compelling when measured up to the current roster, and Sakurai has been very upfront about how important that is when deciding who will join the fight.

Not only that, but Midday and Dusk Lycanroc offer even further uniqueness due to their quadrupedal builds. While Pikachu and Duck Hunt run on all fours, the former usually stands upright and the latter is practically a walking cartoon character. We've never had a fully feral playable fighter in Smash before, and it makes Lycanroc stand out even more compared to its potential peers.

And beyond even that, Lycanroc has all the moveset potential you'd come to expect from a Pokémon character, thanks to a long list of attacks they can learn in their home series that can transfer right over into Smash. From basic fare like Tackle, Bite, and Rock Throw to stronger moves in Stone Edge and Thrash to signature move Accelerock to the dreaded Stealth Rock, there's plenty to build a moveset around no matter how unconventional. There's even a tailor-made Final Smash in the form of their signature Z-Move Splintered Stormshards!

But that's not all, this character in particular even has the potential for more dynamic elements! Perhaps Dusk Lycanroc could take after the anime with a powered up berserk mode triggered by special circumstances? Or what if Sakurai and the Smash team created a concept that allowed shifting between all three forms, with the same attacks but different stats and hitboxes, as a sort-of stance system? The further you dig, the more potential there is to find.

Questions & Answers

Q: Hold up, is Lycanroc really a big enough deal to get considered for Smash?

Actually, yes! This character may not have made waves when Sun and Moon first launched, but has become more and more prominent in the time since. Dusk Lycanroc in particular was the first major reveal of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, has had a lot of attention on the marketing and merchandise side of things (including a few announced mere hours after its unveiling), and has been pushed as hard as even the starters in the time since.

To give you an idea of how big a deal we're talking here: While playable Pokémon in Smash are ostensibly based on the games, they always draw inspiration from the anime, and Ash having a Greninja be his signature 'mon for the Kalos region probably influenced the decision to add Greninja to Smash. This is worth noting...because Ash's signature 'mon for Alola is a Lycanroc. And since such a major production would've been planned out far in advance by its very nature, The Pokémon Company would have had Lycanroc singled out to be this important as far back as mid-2016 or so when Sakurai came knocking and asked what newcomer options there were from Gen 7.

In short, Lycanroc is every bit important enough to have been on the short list to be considered for Smash. It just took a while to hit all of those criteria, long enough that everyone outside the Pokémon fandom had stopped paying attention.

Q: But could Lycanroc even beat out Decidueye or any other potential competiton?

Here's where it gets interesting: Every box that Decidueye checks is one that Lycanroc also checks. Both are relevant and among the most prominent 'mons of their generation, one as a starter, the other as its gen's biggest non-starter. Both have unique, standout abilities, one through plant-based powers and archery, the other through earth-based powers, a quadrupedal build, and the potential for dynamic elements. Both even have high moveset potential just due to their nature as RPG characters!

The reason one is considered a shoo-in for Smash by speculators, with the other an afterthought? One was a big deal right at the release of Gen 7 when people were watching, while the other didn't reach that point until a year later...yet is now the bigger deal in some very important parts of the franchise.

At this point, Decidueye and Lycanroc may well be neck-and-neck as the two most likely Pokémon newcomers...yet surrounding circumstances may push Lycanroc on top. As Sakurai's stated, his team considers which Pokémon will be important going forward...and the way things are shaping up, Lycanroc may well end up the more important one in the long run. Or what if they take into account that they'll probably make downloadable content for this game? Knowing that they'll have the option for a Gen 8 newcomer later next year, what if they choose the 'mon with the rarer elemental niche to add now? After all, every generation has a Grass starter, but this is the most prominent Rock type the series has ever seen, and there's no telling when there'll be another chance to add something as unique as an earthbender to Smash!

...Well, not unless Golden Sun rises from the ashes, but I don't think we can afford to bank on that.

But despite all these comparisons, Lycanroc may not even be competing with Decidueye or other Gen 7 'mons to begin with! Considering past Smash games and just how massive Pokémon is as a franchise, there's a very real chance we could see two newcomers!

Q: Wait, how would the Midday or Dusk forms wield items? That's kind of important!

Not as much of a problem as you'd think, actually; they could just carry and wield items with their mouths. Sure, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense operating a blaster or Super Scope with their teeth, but the Smash devs don't seem to care about depicting those weapons realistically anyway. Seriously, Wario, your hand isn't anywhere near the trigger!
 
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Delzethin

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Miscellany

Character Concept (Midday & Midnight; pre-dates Dusk's reveal) - Delzethin


Character Concept (Dusk; rough draft) - Delzethin
Basics
Size: 6/10
(Slightly above average; shorter yet longer than characters of similar size due to quadrupedal build)
Weight: 96 (Middleweight; nearly dead center, same as Pit)
Walk Speed: 1.25 (T-11th with Diddy Kong compared to the Smash 4 cast)
Run Speed: 2.025 (8th fastest, between Mewtwo and Sheik; that 110 base Speed ain't just for show!)
Air Speed: 0.98 (36th; slightly below average, just below Meta Knight)
Fall Speed: 1.72 (12th fastest; fitting for a character with earth powers)
Playstyle: Bait & Punish/Lockdown - Uses quick grounded movement and feints to provoke opposing attacks and cause them to miss, then punishes the end lag with strong conversions. Emphasis is on whiff punishes in particular rather than punishing out-of-shield. Combines this with a few stage control elements to discourage opponents from moving around and corral them into detrimental situations. Dusk Lycanrocs are willing to fight yet don't actively seek combat nor antagonize anyone who hasn't already shown hostility, so such a playstyle lines right up with that!
Gimmick: Sunset Fury - Dusk Lycanrocs gain the Midnight form's eye glow when attacking in the games, and Ash's Lycanroc had a whole character arc about gaining control of that state! Connecting with a special or certain other attacks would trigger this fury state, causing the same eye glow and a faint orange aura. While in this state, Lycanroc's attacks would speed up significantly, taking normally subpar frame data and cranking it up into a terrifying force to behold for a short time. Notably, the attacks would not have their damage or knockback values altered while in this state, only their frame data. This would make it easier to keep track of and make combos only possible in this state easier to practice!

Grounded Normals
Jab:
Jabs forward with one forepaw, then swings its head at a diagonal angle to hit with its stone mane. A two part jab, like with Bowser and Donkey Kong.
Forward Tilt: Swings one foreleg horizontally, with a small stone appearing and trailing behind it. A decent spacing tool that works well off a pivot.
Up Tilt: Performs a quick backflip in place. Good anti-air, but has no disjoint, and comes with too much end lag to start a combo with...unless Fury is active.
Down Tilt: Swipes at the ground, stirring up a low-hanging cloud of dust. Inspired by Sand-Attack, it deals multiple hits and creates breathing room, but has enough end lag that getting anything going from it is difficult even with Fury up.
Dash Attack: Ducks head low and performs a running tackle. Inspired by, well, Tackle, it's best as a running punish to set up juggle opportunities, just like with Captain Falcon's dash attack.

Smash Attacks
Forward Smash:
Lunges forward with a powerful bite, complete with the fanged energy projection from the anime. Slow to start, but very strong and with a surprising amount of range and disjoint, it's one of Lycanroc's premier kill moves with the proper read.
Up Smash: Howls skyward, summoning a stalagmite immediately in front that juts upward forcefully. Inspired by Stone Edge, the stalagmite has about a 60 degree angle and a slight curve. If you've seen Sylvanos' up smash in Rivals of Aether, think something like that but with more reasonable range though I actually had this idea before I saw that move.
Down Smash: Slams downward to ground level, summoning stalagmites on either side. These are at exact diagonal angles, with less range than the one from the up smash but faster startup.

Aerials
Neutral Air:
Performs a midair barrel roll, spinning in place as rocks shoot out from its collar to rotate around. Imagine something like Sonic's forward air for the animation, but without the forward movement. A long lasting multi-hit nair similar to Lucas, it's a force up close but also very unsafe on shield.
Forward Air: Lurches forward and bites. This one doesn't have the energy projection the fsmash does, so it has less range and power, but it's also much faster and usable in horizontal combos.
Back Air: Kicks backward with both hindlegs. Simplistic and predictable, but damn strong, Lycanroc's go-to killing aerial.
Up Air: Flips upward, attempting to strike with its stone mane. Animation-wise, would resemble the second half of this clip.
Down Air: Creates a rock in midair at its feet, then forcefully kicks it downward a short distance. The first part is a weak-ish outward hit to clear space, while the second is a laggy yet powerful spike. The first hit does not combo into the second.

Grab and Throws
Grab:
With no hands nor prehensile appendages, Lycanroc simply uses its mouth to grab. Would have a notably mediocre standing grab but really good dash and pivot grabs.
Pummel: Bites down on the enemy. Would have a visual effect similar to Charizard's pummel, with similar damage and frame data.
Forward Throw: Tosses the enemy forward. Nothing too fancy; best used for positioning.
Back Throw: Leaps slightly and forcefully hurls the enemy backward. Lycanroc's main kill throw, it'd start netting KOs a little earlier than when Mario's does.
Up Throw: Soft tosses the enemy a short distance forward, then summons a stalagmite that knocks them upward. Lycanroc's strongest throw, dealing about 10-11%.
Down Throw: Leaps upward, then throws the enemy toward the ground. Damage is dealt at the point where they ricochet, with smart aiming to ensure they always hit a surface and aren't thrown into the abyss if used at the edge of a platform. A potent combo starter at low-mid percents, this is one of Lycanroc's go-to punishes and something opponents must plan around.

Specials
Neutral Special: Accelerock
- One of Lycanroc's signature moves is the backbone of its moveset. On use, Lycanroc is propelled forward about 1/3 the distance of Battlefield, shielded by a set of small stones that drag opponents along and deal multiple hits. A movement option and combo starter in one on top of triggering Fury for about 5 seconds if it connects, it's kept in check by having poor range, losing trades with nearly every other attack in the game, and having a ton of end lag if it misses or hits a shield. Because of this, Accelerock is best used as a tool for punishing whiffed attacks, reinforcing Lycanroc's preferred playstyle.
Forward Special: Stealth Rock - Competitive trainers' least favorite move makes its presence known in Smash. On use, Lycanroc tosses a small, pointed stone a distance forward. If it touches a flat surface, it digs in with the edge sticking up. If an opponent gets too close, it grows and stabs them from below, dealing damage and popping them up for easy followups while also triggering Fury for several seconds. Lycanroc's main method of establishing stage control, it can also be used as a trapping move in a pinch or if your opponent is being predictable. Only one Stealth Rock can be active at a time, for obvious balancing reasons.
Up Special: Rock Climb - A rather unconventional recovery move, Lycanroc summons a large stone at its feet and then leaps off it to safety, also dealing damage to anyone nearby at the time. While the distance covered isn't anything to write home about, the hitbox on the rock and on Lycnaroc itself during the jump ensures you'll get that distance unless your opponent reads your movement and times an attack perfectly. Provides Lycanroc with a passable recovery with Accelrock as an alternate option, though you're still at risk of being hit too far back for Rock Climb to save you if you lose your double jump offstage.
Down Special: Counter Stone - Counter is Lycanroc's other signature move, so the key is finding a way to make it unique. For one, Counter Stone merely grants Lycanroc super armor, preventing only knockback while still letting the damage get through. For two, the counterattack itself...isn't all that powerful. But what it does to is trigger Fury for an increasingly long timespan depending on Lycanroc's current % and the strength of the countered attack. At its most potent, this move can set off a fury state that lasts for up to 20 seconds!
Final Smash: Splintered Stormshards - What better Final Smash than a move that basically functions like one in the Pokémon games? On use, Lycanroc emanates an aura that glows with the fiery color of the setting sun. Anyone nearby caught in its light is whisked away to a cinematic where Lycanroc sunders the very earth into a volley of sharpened stones that blots out the sky! Deals tremendous damage and knockback as you'd expect, with the added bonus of destroying any items or traps currently in play just like it removes terrain effects in the games!

Smash Ultimate-style Stock Icon - Voyager

 
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I have seen your Youtube video on Lycanroc. I really like the ideas you presented and they stand out to me. Of course, the third idea on changing forms is cool since there's no radical changes in the moveset and this is coming from someone who doesn't mind transforming characters at all. Also, Rock typing is not seen in Smash for playable Pokemon and I'd like to see that.

You got a supporter of Lycanroc out of me. Also, your character design concepts are pretty darn good, and Lycanroc is no exception.
 

Diddy Kong

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#4
I still don't get why the name Decidueye NEEDS to be mentoined every time a potential Gen 7 Pokemon is discussed. I think Mimikyu and Lycanroc are borh far superiour choices to that owl. I guess I do support, but how would the mechanic between the two forms even work?
 
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I still don't get why the name Decidueye NEEDS to be mentoined every time a potential Gen 7 Pokemon is discussed. I think Mimikyu and Lycanroc are borh far superiour choices to that owl. I guess I do support, but how would the mechanic between the two forms even work?
Lycanroc's attacks can be designed similarly to avoid animation issues if the form switching idea comes into play. The attacks they learn are so closely the same so it wouldn't be a large issue. This form switching idea could avoid choosing different forms for the roster. The form switching also serves as a Sun and Moon game title references as well.

I prefer being open minded about Gen 7 options, in spite of who'd I prefer. For all we know, none them could make it in.
 

Delzethin

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Apologies for the late replies. It's been an exhausting week.

I still don't get why the name Decidueye NEEDS to be mentoined every time a potential Gen 7 Pokemon is discussed. I think Mimikyu and Lycanroc are borh far superiour choices to that owl. I guess I do support, but how would the mechanic between the two forms even work?
Much of the community sees Decidueye as a frontrunner (especially in regards to Pokémon newcomers) and tends to assume only one potential newcomer per franchise can get in, despite the latter having evidence to the contrary. It's all about playing around expectations, then showing why they aren't necessarily true.

Lycanroc's attacks can be designed similarly to avoid animation issues if the form switching idea comes into play. The attacks they learn are so closely the same so it wouldn't be a large issue. This form switching idea could avoid choosing different forms for the roster. The form switching also serves as a Sun and Moon game title references as well.
And not just that. People have been clamoring for transforming characters, but the developers seem to have moved away from full moveset transformations. Since both Lycanroc forms have different builds but nearly identical movepools, we'd be looking at a pseudo-transformation that has the form shifting said people like while maintaining one moveset to fit the developers' new criteria through functioning more like stances, while all being true to character!

If it ended up being the kind of creative choice they think would help the concept, that is.
 
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Fluttershy

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#9
While the Lycanroc transforming sounds interesting. My bet would be that they go with Midnight form as opposed to the ability to transform them or go with Midday form. Namely because midnight seems easier to come up with a move set with thanks to its posture. They could give midnight Accelrock as a special despite being midday only with another counter user since it is Midnight's "signature move" and it would serve more purpose in smash than Pokemon.. don't know what could go with Neutral special but up could go to rock climb since it would make the most sense as a recovery. If they did Midday though it would be interesting to see what they can come up with for with some of its moves without someone like Midna riding on top for wolf Link who could cover for Utilt, Usmash and a few other moves for wolf link.. (using Wolf Link as an example since they would have similar body types if either of them made it)
 
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#10
Honestly, I don't see either Midday or Midnight making the cut.
IF we were to get a Lycanroc.....I'd bet more on the rumored 3rd form to tie in to Stars or whatever.
 

Delzethin

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Honestly, I don't see either Midday or Midnight making the cut.
IF we were to get a Lycanroc.....I'd bet more on the rumored 3rd form to tie in to Stars or whatever.
I'm waiting to see just what they're planning for this year. Rest assured, I've heard about the potential placeholders for new Lycanroc forms sitting in the Global Link's code. If they do a quick fire announcement of a third version/sequel/the like in the next couple months and show off a new form right away, that'd be the one to look at. But until then, we're better off working with what we already have.
 
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UGXwolf

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#12
Count me in for stone woofer support! Smash needs more wolves~ Also, as things are, I would love to see Midnight form. I think down-B being counter is inevitable, but what if he smacked opponents downwards, tacking on damage and allowing for a follow-up. Down or up smash could be Stone edge, which would be a nice kill move. I don't forsee him gitting much off of grabs, but he could be interesting with earth-based moves.
 

Delzethin

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Count me in for stone woofer support! Smash needs more wolves~ Also, as things are, I would love to see Midnight form. I think down-B being counter is inevitable, but what if he smacked opponents downwards, tacking on damage and allowing for a follow-up. Down or up smash could be Stone edge, which would be a nice kill move. I don't forsee him gitting much off of grabs, but he could be interesting with earth-based moves.
Good to have you on board! We may not be many, but who knows, all it'd take is the right Pokémon news for that to change.

You know, I should really put the character concept I made a few months ago up top. What I've been envisioning is two takes on a bait-and-punish fighting style--since Midday is nonconfrontational unless provoked and since Midnight is straight up said to use bait-and-punish tactics. With mostly identical moves but with different hitboxes and effects due to their different builds, each form would use the same attacks in different ways: Midnight attacking head-on and punishing out of shield, and Midday constantly moving around, provoking reactions, and punishing whiffed attacks instead!
 
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#14






Seems Midnight Lycanroc is Incineroar's partner-in-crime for the film. Literally, since Cross seems to be the main antagonist, wanting to take the Rainbow Wing from Ash so he can fight Ho-oh.

As head of the Incineroar thread, I extend my hand in sportsmanship and say may the best 'mon win. :)
 

Kirbeh

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#15
Seems Midnight Lycanroc is Incineroar's partner-in-crime for the film. Literally, since Cross seems to be the main antagonist, wanting to take the Rainbow Wing from Ash so he can fight Ho-oh.

As head of the Incineroar thread, I extend my hand in sportsmanship and say may the best 'mon win. :)
Inb4 they throw us for a loop and include Ho-oh as a Gen 2 rep.
 
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Inb4 they throw us for a loop and include Ho-oh as a Gen 2 rep.
I've actually brought up the idea of Ho-Oh being the newcomer of choice in a semi-joke discussion due to being the star of the upcoming film (when we only knew it had Ash, Pikachu, and Ho-Oh).

Would be interesting, but I doubt it.
 
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#17



Near week-old bump.
I'm very surprised that not even the thread creator said anything about Midnight's role in the upcoming film.

Anyways, the above is the first known merchandise for it in context of the movie.
Kind of surprising Marshadow doesn't have a figure, but hey, at least the Tiger & Wolf duo have something.
 

Delzethin

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#18



Near week-old bump.
I'm very surprised that not even the thread creator said anything about Midnight's role in the upcoming film.

Anyways, the above is the first known merchandise for it in context of the movie.
Kind of surprising Marshadow doesn't have a figure, but hey, at least the Tiger & Wolf duo have something.
I've been bogged down as of late by a lot of stuff going on at the same time. Rest assured, I've been following things, even if I don't seem to have on the surface.

Now that I think about it...how often are figures like these made for these movies?
 
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ryuu seika

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#19
I've actually brought up the idea of Ho-Oh being the newcomer of choice in a semi-joke discussion due to being the star of the upcoming film (when we only knew it had Ash, Pikachu, and Ho-Oh).

Would be interesting, but I doubt it.
Ho-Oh I don't see but, if we somehow get a prevo who's seen to be more grounded, I could see Ho-Oh as an FS.

Lycanroc's main selling point, IMO, is it's transformation but this needn't be a major one. The difference between Tira's two forms in Soul Calibur 5 seems like a good example but a more widely understandable one might be if Lucina and Roy were both one character, changing between the two versions as required.

Time based would be the ideal trigger thematically (everyminute maybe) but it might also be too inconvenient. Every stock change might also work if needed.
 
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#20
I've been bogged down as of late by a lot of stuff going on at the same time. Rest assured, I've been following things, even if I don't seem to have on the surface.

Now that I think about it...how often are figures like these made for these movies?
I don't know honestly.

But I do know that merchandise is made for movies.
 

Diddy Kong

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#22
How is Charizard even there in the movie? Nobody noticed that yet? Or are we so accustomed to Charizard being everywhere that we don't care? Ash didn't even had a Charmander back then.. oh you know never mind.

Guess this is good for Lycanroc.
 
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#23
How is Charizard even there in the movie? Nobody noticed that yet? Or are we so accustomed to Charizard being everywhere that we don't care? Ash didn't even had a Charmander back then.. oh you know never mind.

Guess this is good for Lycanroc.
The movie doesn't take place literally just when he gets Pikachu and sees Ho-Oh for the first time.
The film spans a bit between the moment they see Ho-Oh and Ash gets the Rainbow Wing (or whatever it is) and when he meets Souji and Makoto and they all go to find it.

We see him get Charmander in the trailer as well as Butterfree.

EDIT: The main question that needs to be answered though is.....
....is Charizard obedient, or are we back to the old days of him not listening to Ash and only fighting when it sees a "worthy" adversary (usually another Fire type), which is where Incineroar comes in?
 
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Delzethin

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#24
Lycanroc is an interesting choice indeed. Your ideas make him work in my eyes, I'd love to see him introduced in smash.
Welcome. We may not number many, but we seem to have something coming together here. We can only hope it comes to fruition.

The movie doesn't take place literally just when he gets Pikachu and sees Ho-Oh for the first time.
The film spans a bit between the moment they see Ho-Oh and Ash gets the Rainbow Wing (or whatever it is) and when he meets Souji and Makoto and they all go to find it.

We see him get Charmander in the trailer as well as Butterfree.
Yeah, and between that and the fact that suddenly there're two new companions as well as mons from Gens 4 and 7, it seems less like a retelling of the first arc of Ash's journey and more like some kind of alternate timeline. Just what are they planning here?
 

Diddy Kong

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#26
Well Pikachu still has horrible base stats. Without Light Ball it's pretty damn useless, and even with it, Pikachu is to slow to make it work. Think it's about time they buffed the series mascot.
 

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#27
Some anime news dropped earlier. Namely, that Gladion will make his first appearance in an episode three weeks from now.

Why is that relevant? Look at this:



Type:Null is nowhere to be found for reasons that'll probably be explained later, but look who's there instead.



It seems like Gladion's first appearance will be setting up a rivalry between him and Ash to match the one he has with the player character in the games, with his Midnight Lycanroc serving as a foil to Ash's Rockruff!

But there're two things here that really caught my attention:

1. Look at the bottom-most screenshot on the second page. Are we getting an evolution already, with Ash's Rockruff going Midday like some have speculated?

2. My katakana's a little rusty, but the second page's center text has Lycanroc's Japanese name and a Z there...so just what are they planning? That certainly looks like Continental Crush on the top right, but is there more going on here?
 
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#28
First pic:
Opponent 3: A mysterious Lugarugan Trainer: His name is Gladio!
A mysterious Trainer that uses a Lugarugan and a Blacky arrives in town! What is this Trainer with the red Z-Ring capable of?!

The lump of rock bathed in the Z of the blue moon will now... seal off the collapsing world!

"Come Forth, Lugarugan with the Crimson Look!!" airs May 18th!

Second pic:
Lugarugan's Z-Move is super strong!! Lugarugan uses the Rock type Z-Move! The other half of this duo, Gladio, is tough as well!!

The Rock type Z-Move, "World's End Fall"
Enormous rocks strikes the opponent from the air!!

Gladio is super skilled as well!!
Gladio is so strong there's been talk about it in town, so Satoshi immediately challenges him to a battle! How will Satoshi go up against the Rock type Z-Move, which he has never seen before?!

What are Gladio and Lugarugan's secrets?!
Let's take a look at the powerful Gladio's secrets:
Secret 1: Lugarugan is Iwanko's goal!!
Lugarugan is the form Iwanko takes after evolving. Satoshi's Iwanko is training to become stronger, and this is the goal it aims for!
There's also a Midday Form: Which form will Satoshi's Iwanko eventually evolve into?!
Secret 2: Gladio is Lilie's brother!!
Even though they are siblings, it has apparently been a long time since Gladio and Lilie last met. Just why is it that Gladio is traveling...?

(Satoshi: I'll become much stronger too!!)




So to answer your two things,
1. The Midday pic is a flashback to the one seen in the fight club.
It serves as a reminder that Lycanroc has two forms for Rockruff to evolve to. It's not an indication that Rockruff is going to evolve now.
But at this point, it's obvious Rockruff will either become Midday to counter Gladion's or it will be a currently undisclosed form, as at least one has been hinted at through a placeholder image on the Pokémon Global Link:


2. Continental Crush. :V
 
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#29
I support. Although I don't want tranformation because that will just do what Pokemon Trainer did to Charizard's potential and what Samus did to ZSS (no Smash Ball in tournaments). I think only one form should get in, preferably Midday form but thats probably because it was on my team in Sun.
 

ryuu seika

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#30
The transformation for Lycanroc would not be anywhere near as functionally drastic as those you mention. Imagine if, for example, the doctor's outfit were a Mario transformation that replaced FLUUD. Or occurred automatically under set conditions.

It would alter move properties, making different forms slightly better for different things, but it wouldn't change what any of the moves actually did.

At least, that's what I imagine.
 
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#31
The transformation for Lycanroc would not be anywhere near as functionally drastic as those you mention. Imagine if, for example, the doctor's outfit were a Mario transformation that replaced FLUUD. Or occurred automatically under set conditions.

It would alter move properties, making different forms slightly better for different things, but it wouldn't change what any of the moves actually did.

At least, that's what I imagine.
That's literally impossible.

One's a quadruped while the other is a biped.
They can't have the same exact moveset with different properties because their bodies are drastically different.
 

Kirbeh

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#32
That's literally impossible.

One's a quadruped while the other is a biped.
They can't have the same exact moveset with different properties because their bodies are drastically different.
Pretty much this. I like Del's idea, but calling it a stance change is inaccurate as this would necessitate a full transformation. The forms are far too different for a stance change to work simply on the basis that two separate models would need to be made.

Stance changes change a few things that a character can do and how they play, but do not completely change the character. Even if the specials can be made to be the same or similar, how would they have the same normals with such different body structures.

No matter how you slice it, the devs would have to put in twice the workload for "one" character who in the end is still actually going to be two.

Two very different models that would both need animations. They could be designed to use similar attacks, but cannot actually share the same animations due to one being a biped and the other being a quadruped as Golden already pointed out.
 
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Delzethin

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#33
I support. Although I don't want tranformation because that will just do what Pokemon Trainer did to Charizard's potential and what Samus did to ZSS (no Smash Ball in tournaments). I think only one form should get in, preferably Midday form but thats probably because it was on my team in Sun.
Welcome. Seems like interest has picked up a little, hasn't it?

There're actually a few different ways a Lycanroc concept could work, even a couple that wouldn't even involve any transformation. The reason Pokémon Trainer didn't work was because you had to use all three and often had no control over which you could use when, thanks to both the stamina mechanic and how the game switches in a new one if you lose a stock. The key with a transformation or pseudo-transformation is to give the player some kind of control, or else it ends up so frustrating to work around that it undermines everything else about the character or characters. If they did go with a form-shifting concept for a playable Lycanroc, it'd need to be something voluntary yet useful enough to actually be used mid-match.

That's literally impossible.

One's a quadruped while the other is a biped.
They can't have the same exact moveset with different properties because their bodies are drastically different.
Pretty much this. I like Del's idea, but calling it a stance change is inaccurate as this would necessitate a full transformation. The forms are far too different for a stance change to work simply on the basis that two separate models would need to be made.

Stance changes change a few things that a character can do and how they play, but do not completely change the character. Even if the specials can be made to be the same or similar, how would they have the same normals with such different body structures.

No matter how you slice it, the devs would have to put in twice the workload for "one" character who in the end is still actually going to be two.

Two very different models that would both need animations. They could be designed to use similar attacks, but cannot actually share the same animations due to one being a biped and the other being a quadruped as Golden already pointed out.
It's true that you couldn't copy and paste animations between them. It would take more work than something like Shulk's Monado Arts; I knew that when I envisioned the idea and that was why I offered it as just one of multiple ways they could interpret the character.

There are other avenues Sakurai and his team could find interesting. Maybe there's a scenario where they still want to play the two forms off each other but as separate semi-clones of each other instead, or maybe just a single form. Maybe the aforementioned placeholder data on the GTS is for some kind of "ultimate" form that combines elements of the two we currently have. Maybe that's what they're setting Ash's Rockruff up for, to put said new form front and center like they did with Ash-Greninja or Alain's Mega Charizard.

But for the record, the reason I think a form-shift concept would fall closer to a stance system is because the basic moves themselves would still be similar. Say, for example, a simple claw swipe as a forward tilt: Midnight's could have a wider overall arc, while Midday's version would have a worse hitbox but might come out faster or have a little better horizontal reach. Their moveset would be designed so both forms could use every move therein without any trouble, but the moves would have different hitboxes and somewhat different properties because of the contrast between the forms' stats and their bipedal and quadrupedal builds! Since the moves would still have the same basic ideas tying them together, it'd be different that the full transformations from previous games where two or more completely dissimilar movesets were joined together. The developers have moved away from the latter, but the former might still be something they're up for.

Or again, maybe they'd go another direction that a playable Lycanroc would still work in.
 
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Kirbeh

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#34
Welcome. Seems like interest has picked up a little, hasn't it?

There're actually a few different ways a Lycanroc concept could work, even a couple that wouldn't even involve any transformation. The reason Pokémon Trainer didn't work was because you had to use all three and often had no control over which you could use when, thanks to both the stamina mechanic and how the game switches in a new one if you lose a stock. The key with a transformation or pseudo-transformation is to give the player some kind of control, or else it ends up so frustrating to work around that it undermines everything else about the character or characters. If they did go with a form-shifting concept for a playable Lycanroc, it'd need to be something voluntary yet useful enough to actually be used mid-match.

It's true that you couldn't copy and paste animations between them. It would take more work than something like Shulk's Monado Arts; I knew that when I envisioned the idea and that was why I offered it as just one of multiple ways they could interpret the character.

There are other avenues Sakurai and his team could find interesting. Maybe there's a scenario where they still want to play the two forms off each other but as separate semi-clones of each other instead, or maybe just a single form. Maybe the aforementioned placeholder data on the GTS is for some kind of "ultimate" form that combines elements of the two we currently have. Maybe that's what they're setting Ash's Rockruff up for, to put said new form front and center like they did with Ash-Greninja or Alain's Mega Charizard.

But for the record, the reason I think a form-shift concept would fall closer to a stance system is because the basic moves themselves would still be similar. Say, for example, a simple claw swipe as a forward tilt: Midnight's could have a wider overall arc, while Midday's version would have a worse hitbox but might come out faster or have a little better horizontal reach. Their moveset would be designed so both forms could use every move therein without any trouble, but the moves would have different hitboxes and somewhat different properties because of the contrast between the forms' stats and their bipedal and quadrupedal builds! Since the moves would still have the same basic ideas tying them together, it'd be different that the full transformations from previous games where two or more completely dissimilar movesets were joined together. The developers have moved away from the latter, but the former might still be something they're up for.

Or again, maybe they'd go another direction that a playable Lycanroc would still work in.
Don't get me wrong, I really like your ideas and I get what you meant, but it still wouldn't work as a stance system. Unless an "ultimate" third form of Lycanroc really does end up being the case, then the transformation is in my opinion the best way to go. It's only an issue now that Smash For has moved away from that. My hope is that with some tweaks, they'd be willing to make an exception due to the nature of Lycanroc itself.

Transformations in Smash are fairly interesting overall, as it seemed more or less like it was Smash's answer to stance changes in other fighting games, but taken to the extreme. A proper stance change character would have to be something like Gen from Street Fighter, whereas Smash's transformations outright change characters entirely like Zelda/Sheik or swap to completely different ones as was the case with Pokemon Trainer. (I sort of said the same thing twice there, but you get my point.)

I do understand why you likened it to a stance system though as with a character like Lycanroc, it'd perhaps be the closest thing to a stance character in Smash Bros. if they did bother to design them to have several similar moves. Overall though, my point was more or less that it'd be making two separate characters again, they could be similar yes, but it'd still be a transformation. I guess one of my biggest concerns with the idea was how normals would work across a biped like Midnight Forme and a quadruped like Midday Forme.

Something like forward tilt seems a bit easy to work around; both have a forward claw swipe with Midnight slouching a bit to lay low to the ground. Once you get into other stuff like Up Tilt for example things get a bit trickier. It's easy to imagine Midnight having something similar to Bowser's Up-Tilt, but there's no way to the same with Midday without doing some really weird stuff that looks unnatural and counter to the way Midday is designed.

Overall though, I do think you're idea of including both as similar but different transformations would be the way to go, it's just a matter of whether they'd be willing to give transformations another shot.
 
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#35
What Kirbeh said.

There's basically no way to get around the idea that if you want both Lycanrocs featured in a gimmick that switches between them, it would have to be a transformation/swap gimmick like pre-Wii U/3DS.

Both models have to be made, and be programmed and designed to have a moveset and a method to swap the two out. Not only that, but they both have to be completely bug-tested and balanced around the existing cast....and each other.
Making the movesets as similar as possible between them doesn't change that it is still having to put the same amount of work in making two characters as it is making two separate fighters that are semi-clones of each other.

And that's not even getting to the fact that a true quadruped has multiple issues to get around to function properly and look "natural" like we've discussed in the main speculation thread a month ago that makes Midday rather impractical, but that discussion's been done to death, so that's all I'll say there.

I'm afraid the only feasible and realistic option at this time for the species is a solo Midnight with a Final Smash where Midday and Midnight team up for an assault if including Midday somewhere is absolutely necessary. The only other option I can think of is a hypothetical new form Ash may be getting to tie into a later release that has been hinted at through Global Link. Provided that hypothetical new form doesn't have the same problems Midday has.....


With how Midnight has been getting spotlight in comparison to Midday, it really would make sense for Midnight to be chosen as the solo fighter anyway....
 
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#36
Welcome. Seems like interest has picked up a little, hasn't it?

There're actually a few different ways a Lycanroc concept could work, even a couple that wouldn't even involve any transformation. The reason Pokémon Trainer didn't work was because you had to use all three and often had no control over which you could use when, thanks to both the stamina mechanic and how the game switches in a new one if you lose a stock. The key with a transformation or pseudo-transformation is to give the player some kind of control, or else it ends up so frustrating to work around that it undermines everything else about the character or characters. If they did go with a form-shifting concept for a playable Lycanroc, it'd need to be something voluntary yet useful enough to actually be used mid-match.



It's true that you couldn't copy and paste animations between them. It would take more work than something like Shulk's Monado Arts; I knew that when I envisioned the idea and that was why I offered it as just one of multiple ways they could interpret the character.

There are other avenues Sakurai and his team could find interesting. Maybe there's a scenario where they still want to play the two forms off each other but as separate semi-clones of each other instead, or maybe just a single form. Maybe the aforementioned placeholder data on the GTS is for some kind of "ultimate" form that combines elements of the two we currently have. Maybe that's what they're setting Ash's Rockruff up for, to put said new form front and center like they did with Ash-Greninja or Alain's Mega Charizard.

But for the record, the reason I think a form-shift concept would fall closer to a stance system is because the basic moves themselves would still be similar. Say, for example, a simple claw swipe as a forward tilt: Midnight's could have a wider overall arc, while Midday's version would have a worse hitbox but might come out faster or have a little better horizontal reach. Their moveset would be designed so both forms could use every move therein without any trouble, but the moves would have different hitboxes and somewhat different properties because of the contrast between the forms' stats and their bipedal and quadrupedal builds! Since the moves would still have the same basic ideas tying them together, it'd be different that the full transformations from previous games where two or more completely dissimilar movesets were joined together. The developers have moved away from the latter, but the former might still be something they're up for.

Or again, maybe they'd go another direction that a playable Lycanroc would still work in.
Isn't it possible for Lycanroc Midnight to assume a pseudo-quadruped stance for acceptable creative licensing if the form switching were taken. Something similar to DK, maybe? Then again, it may not mesh well and may be too out of character for Midnight form.
 

Kirbeh

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#37
Isn't it possible for Lycanroc Midnight to assume a pseudo-quadruped stance for acceptable creative licensing if the form switching were taken. Something similar to DK, maybe? Then again, it may not mesh well and may be too out of character for Midnight form.
That's certainly a possibility albeit, a bit of an issue itself as well. If they had Midnight Form on all fours using the same attacks as Midday, there'd be little point in using both, and as you said it'd be very out of character for how Midnight Lycanroc was designed.
 
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#38
That's certainly a possibility albeit, a bit of an issue itself as well. If they had Midnight Form on all fours using the same attacks as Midday, there'd be little point in using both, and as you said it'd be very out of character for how Midnight Lycanroc was designed.
There's also the issue of whether to accurately/precisely bring in attacks or aspects of a character or not. I am for transformations and "stances" for characters and I think Lycanroc could work in the form switching idea. The Pokemon Trainer is where I think that idea just didn't work out and separating the Pokemon was for the better. Similar to Samus, Lycanroc is still Lycanroc regardless of form and from my perspective, it's acceptable to me.

As for the quadruped issue, I have to bring up Ivysaur as quadruped that was possible due to ranged attacks and Vine Whip being beneficial in Ivysaur's case. Sadly, that was to boost up the Pokemon Trainer "Pokemon switching" aspects. Duck Hunt was somehow able to get around the issue due to the cartoony bipedal moments that dog has.

Lycanroc Midday form could still work similar to possible Midnight's punching in vein of Rock Throw, but the projectile range and timing would have to be in sync with Midnight.

The idea is not perfect, but it's just giving and defending the idea respectfully is what counts, though. I think the term for this is "biting the bullet". I just don't want good ideas going to waste or bad executions for cool ideas for Smash capable characters, that's all.
 

Kirbeh

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#39
There's also the issue of whether to accurately/precisely bring in attacks or aspects of a character or not. I am for transformations and "stances" for characters and I think Lycanroc could work in the form switching idea. The Pokemon Trainer is where I think that idea just didn't work out and separating the Pokemon was for the better. Similar to Samus, Lycanroc is still Lycanroc regardless of form and from my perspective, it's acceptable to me.

As for the quadruped issue, I have to bring up Ivysaur as quadruped that was possible due to ranged attacks and Vine Whip being beneficial in Ivysaur's case. Sadly, that was to boost up the Pokemon Trainer "Pokemon switching" aspects. Duck Hunt was somehow able to get around the issue due to the cartoony bipedal moments that dog has.

Lycanroc Midday form could still work similar to possible Midnight's punching in vein of Rock Throw, but the projectile range and timing would have to be in sync with Midnight.

The idea is not perfect, but it's just giving and defending the idea respectfully is what counts, though. I think the term for this is "biting the bullet". I just don't want good ideas going to waste or bad executions for cool ideas for Smash capable characters, that's all.
Oh no, my argument isn't against quadruped characters themselves, I'd actually like to see more unorthodox characters like that be tackled in Smash. The issue comes from the two forms being a stance change, something that literally cannot be done.

Smash has never had what would normally be considered a stance character, but transformations seemed to be their answer to it. Overall separating characters in Smash For was for the best, but I think returning to the concept (and perhaps also making a proper stance change character) would be nice. They just need to be more careful in how they plan the concept so it doesn't end up like a Pokemon Trainer situation again where all 3 fell short and sort of held each other down as characters in order to hold together the swapping and type triangle concept.

Lycanroc is an example of a character where the transformation mechanic could possibly be fairly fitting, but it would require the team to willing to bring it back. Normally I'm against transformations myself, but this is one of the few cases where I'd be interested in seeing it return.
 
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#40
Oh no, my argument isn't against quadruped characters themselves, I'd actually like to see more unorthodox characters like that be tackled in Smash. The issue comes from the two forms being a stance change, something that literally cannot be done.

Smash has never had what would normally be considered a stance character, but transformations seemed to be their answer to it. Overall separating characters in Smash For was for the best, but I think returning to the concept (and perhaps also making a proper stance change character) would be nice. They just need to be more careful in how they plan the concept so it doesn't end up like a Pokemon Trainer situation again where all 3 fell short and sort of held each other down as characters in order to hold together the swapping and type triangle concept.

Lycanroc is an example of a character where the transformation mechanic could possibly be fairly fitting, but it would require the team to willing to bring it back. Normally I'm against transformations myself, but this is one of the few cases where I'd be interested in seeing it return.
Gotcha, I was expecting more than just you to reply, but I get where you're going with your thoughts. "Stance" wouldn't really be the proper word for Lycanroc's case, that would definitely be transformations. I would save "stances" for Lei Wulong in Tekken.
 
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