Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Holder of the Heel]

While it would be really awesome to fight as a wolf, it would be really unique and I love this particular Pokemon, but almost all reasoning to be given for its inclusion could also be granted to a 7th gen starter but even more so. Hadn't thought about the idea of Lycanroc in Smash though, interesting. If not a character, both forms could make for a good Pokeball as well (Accelerock and Counter).

 

[Delzethin]

While it would be really awesome to fight as a wolf, it would be really unique and I love this particular Pokemon, but almost all reasoning to be given for its inclusion could also be granted to a 7th gen starter but even more so.

Well...one of the starters. It's not just the prominence, it's the fact that any Lycanroc would be the first earth-based fighter on the roster. Unique abilities are a big deal for Sakurai and his team, and so they're probably more likely to look at characters with elemental powers we haven't seen before as long as they're important enough to be worth considering. Based on what we know, they're probably more interested in a potential first earth-based fighter, or first plant-based one on Decidueye's end, rather than a water user with difficult to implement movement or yet another heavily physical fire user when we have several already!

But, that's just an educated guess on my part, based on stuff I've read over the last few years. It's not hard fact, and we need to keep learning about the team's design processes to get an increasingly better idea of who they might be looking at.



Speaking of prominence, did you guys see the background during the live part of the announcements?

There's one shelf for the Alola starters, one for regional variants, the legendaries up top, Johto 'mons to celebrate Gen 2 on Virtual Console, and how about that, look who got one all to themselves as the only full evolution line there?

 

[N3ON]

I'm wondering at this point if more Pokemon have plushes of them than not.

 

[Windstar]

The interesting move set potential for a rock Pokemon, along with transformations, could end up being a really cool fighter. Put me down as a supporter, sir.

One more thing, stone doggo is life.

 

[Delzethin]

The interesting move set potential for a rock Pokemon, along with transformations, could end up being a really cool fighter. Put me down as a supporter, sir.

One more thing, stone doggo is life.

Welcome. We many not number many yet, but that may change soon depending on what we learn tomorrow.

Speaking of which, I should update the intro post and fill in that Q&A section. Need to make it look nice and clean and compelling in case we get an influx of people on the boards again.

 

[Delzethin]

Sorry for, well, dropping off the face of the earth. It's been a rough week or so, even with all the buzz surrounding E3.

I still plan on upgrading everything...as soon as I'm more physically capable of it...

 

[Delzethin]

So this happened in the anime:

Turns out anime!Olivia has a Midday Lycanroc instead of Midnight. So now that we have this alongside Gladion's Midnight one...where does that leave Ash's Rockruff? Kind of a big deal, considering whichever form Ash's Rockruff ends up taking will probably the most prominent and therefore most likely to be considered.

Those form placeholders are looking awfully suspicious right about now...

 

[Delzethin]

So...it's been way too long. Blame me being preoccupied, blame the lack of Smash or USM news, whatever the reason.

But, the latter of those seems like it's about to change soon. Based on a combination of factors, it seem like we're no more than a week and a half away from the reveal of a new Lycanroc form. And if this thing turns out to be as big deal as it's poised to be...well, this is a Smash support thread.

Keep your eyes peeled and ears open, everyone. We may be about to get a major shot in the arm.

 

[Deleted member]

Just so you don't have to bump the thread again and get another warning....

There's no doubt this is going to be the new Lycanroc.
Especially since the hidden merchandise yet to be released is supposed to be revealed on the same day.

Note how the anime is referencing a rare phenomena with the sun.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_flash

A green flash in some mythos from what I understand means "a soul comes back to this world from the dead".
So this Lycanroc is likely Rock/Ghost.

And, if Midday and Midnight are supposed to represent Skoll and Hati of Norse mythology....

....then the third form is most likely supposed to represent Fenrir, their father.

 

[Delzethin]

I can do you one better.

Serebii Update: CoroCoro cover showcases possible alternate Lycanroc appearance https://t.co/gDbXkHSvkT pic.twitter.com/nuBCDABBPu

— Serebii.net (@SerebiiNet) August 5, 2017

Ladies and gentlemen, we may have a hybrid on our hands. There's a clear mix of Midday and Midnight's traits, and with how much they've been hyping this thing up, I can't help but think there's something more to it than that alone.

And it seems we won't have to wait much longer to learn more.

Serebii Update: Ultra Sun &a Ultra Moon news will be on Pokenchi tonight https://t.co/gDbXkHSvkT

— Serebii.net (@SerebiiNet) August 5, 2017

The weekly Pokénchi show over in Japan is airing in roughly 11 hours, and it seems like something is getting revealed there. I'm pretty sure now we know what one of those "somethings" will be.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Can't wait to see "UltraRock" in action! (Preferably in Smash though)

 

[Deleted member]

And lo and behold. Lycanroc Dusk to go with Midday and Midnight.


Predicting a Dawn counterpart as well that looks more like Midnight.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

So late night Japanese showing actually has something. That's rare.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Now the question is whether Dusk Lycanroc is the ultimate form of Lycanroc, which would make him the primary Smash candidate, or whether it gets a counterpart in Dawn Lycanroc, which would make choosing a Lycanroc for Smash a hot mess.

 

[ryuu seika]

Presumably Dusk gets moves from both? Could we see a visual representation of that in the form of a spirit version of the respective form overlapping it during a few relevant attacks? You know, as a cool and thematic way to include more of the family.

 

[Delzethin]

We've got a lot to figure out yet. I'll give my full thoughts later, when I'm not falling asleep where I stand.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

We've got a lot to figure out yet. I'll give my full thoughts later, when I'm not falling asleep where I stand.

Yawn Lycanroc confirmed.

Anyway, the biggest thing here is that it doesn't seem like Dusk Lycanroc is an "Ultimate Form Lycanroc", leaning way more towards Midday than Midnight
This might mean the Dawn of a new era of Lycanroc speculation with Dusk forming a duo with "Dawn Lycanroc"

Basically, instead of getting "Stars" Lycanroc after "Sun and Moon Lycanroc", we might be surprised and see another dual release of Dusk and an unrevealed "Dawn Lycanroc"

That's a situation that's quite unpractical when it comes to picking a Lycanroc for Smash, since there would be four choices with equal credentials but being too different in fighting styles to get a Bowser Jr. treatment

The anime might be the deciding factor in that case, with one of the Lycanrocs being more important and getting more screentimem than the others, presumably the one Ash's Rockruff evolves in.

The situation where such a "Dawn Lycanroc", pardon the pun, never sees the light of day, we might just found a way to solve the dilemma of Midday vs Midnight by picking none of those two and going for Dusk Lycanroc, providing it gets decent screentime in the anime.

I don't want Delzy to reply right now even though I quoted him as he needs sleep

 

[Staarih]

Well, at least Dusk Lycanroc will get the most screentime while tagging along with Ash, so I'm predicting it'll eventually become the most popular/known of the three forms, even if the first two are pretty prominent and popular already. Not sure if that'll translate into Smash, but the anime does (or has) influnced some of the Pokemon-aspects in Smash before... so we'll see.

I really like the new form. It does resemble Midday quite a lot but maybe it's a deliberate choice to cater to those fans, as Dusk will no doubt be seen more often as of now. I personally don't see a "Dawn form" happening if only for the Japanese/German choice of "Twilight form", indicating both dusk/dawn/transition from day to night or vice versa and the fact how this one will already overshadow any other possible form that's to come. Though surely there are exceptions.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Well, at least Dusk Lycanroc will get the most screentime while tagging along with Ash, so I'm predicting it'll eventually become the most popular/known of the three forms, even if the first two are pretty prominent and popular already. Not sure if that'll translate into Smash, but the anime does (or has) influnced some of the Pokemon-aspects in Smash before... so we'll see.

I really like the new form. It does resemble Midday quite a lot but maybe it's a deliberate choice to cater to those fans, as Dusk will no doubt be seen more often as of now. I personally don't see a "Dawn form" happening if only for the Japanese/German choice of "Twilight form", indicating both dusk/dawn/transition from day to night or vice versa and the fact how this one will already overshadow any other possible form that's to come. Though surely there are exceptions.

Interesting how the Japanese name indicates how Dusk truly should be seen as a "definite in-between" instead of another "counterpart of in-between Dawn" tagging along

 

[Deleted member]

I personally don't see a "Dawn form" happening if only for the Japanese/German choice of "Twilight form", indicating both dusk/dawn/transition from day to night or vice versa and the fact how this one will already overshadow any other possible form that's to come.

"Tasogare" and "Zwielicht" can mean "twilight" or "dusk".




Also, I am not trying to be a detractor, but I do feel it needs to be pointed out that Dusk having the same exact body type as Midday is a bit of a detriment when it comes to Smash.....

 

[Delzethin]

So, where do we stand now?

Gotta admit, Dusk Lycanroc isn't quite what I expected. I got a little too caught in hype and thought we'd see something mind-blowing. That said, it's not a bad design by any means. You guys could probably tell I preferred Midday's design to Midnight's, and so a Midday base with some of Midnight's elements is fine by me.

I really wish they'd chosen a different shade of orange, though. Something about the brightness of it just seems...off, and it makes me wish they'd gone with a more faded orange, or even a reddish-orange that'd blend into the rest of the colors better while still befitting the sunset theme. Maybe it's just me, though, or maybe it's the recurring headaches I've had the last few days. And besides, if this form does get into Smash 4 Deluxe or whatever it is they're up to, I'd have seven other colors to choose from anyway!

Far as Smash odds go, I do think this helps us. This new form was hyped up quite a bit, there seems to be merchandise lined up for it already in ways that almost never happen normally, and overall, it shows the Lycanrocs--or at least the dusk form--is a big enough deal to be on the short list of Alola mons that'd get considered or were considered for the rumored Smash game. And since there've been placeholders for more forms as far back as late last year, they've probably had plans for this for a while!

Speaking of which...I do think it's at least possible there could be more forms still. There're three Lycanroc placeholders in the Global Link, not just one, and the surrounding context makes totem bosses for Midday and Midnight...rather unlikely. And there's also the fact that the thing on Corocoro's cover has a very different fur color than the form we just got, different enough that the image's low quality wouldn't have change it that significantly...in theory, anyway.

For now, let's wait to see what happens over the next few days and go from there. Hopefully some lore, some more details, and maybe even something that explains why they chose that particular garish shade of orange.

 

[Curious Villager]

Guess the title of "Twin Wolves" is no longer accurate.

Pretty neat design, I think it looks better in the anime though, but I guess you can have a bit more freedom on how to design a character via a drawing compared to a 3D model..

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Too many people are comparing Dusk Lycanroc to Crash.

Now I can't really unsee it at all.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, Dusk is exclusive to a "Special" Rockruff that's going to be distributed for USUM.

And since it wasn't stated here yet, it'll get both Accelrock and Counter and have the Tough Claws ability.

 

[Delzethin]

Well, Dusk is exclusive to a "Special" Rockruff that's going to be distributed for USUM.

And since it wasn't stated here yet, it'll get both Accelrock and Counter and have the Tough Claws ability.

You beat me to the punch on that one. I was waiting until we had the full extent of Corocoro info, but then I've had so much to focus on of late, and...

...Anyway. I'll give my full thoughts later.

 

[Deleted member]

Well, any beliefs I had about Midday (and Dusk, technically, as it was Dusk that made me think more about this) not being feasible have been put to rest.

I just realized that most of my biggest concerns regards to how the quadruped doggo would work with some aspects can easily be solved by.....

.....energy teeth.
Large items, throws, Hammer swinging, etc. can be handled by the projection chompers while smaller items would be handled with just the mouth.

The only issue I can see is firing gun-like weapons, but I guess Sakurai/whoever can handwave temporary mutation into Midnight front paws for that? :V

EDIT: In general, due to the special snowflake-ness that is Dreamsicle Doggo Lycanroc-Dusk, I see it as probably one of the top candidates for Smash if not the top in regards to a Gen. VII Pokémon.

GameFreak's going out of their way to promote the everloving **** outta this thing as a big deal for Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon.

 

[Delzethin]

So, lot of information we have now.

It's been a hell of a rollercoaster ride, this past week. What initially seemed like a barely unique disappointment turned out to still be pretty interesting. Then we speculated about a counterpart form, learned one probably doesn't exist, found out this was a Delphox-like case of good art screwed up by a bad ingame model, heard the frustrating news that it's pulling a Zoroark and being event-only for its debut...there've been a lot of ups and downs.

It may be a while before Dusk Lycanroc is viable in its home series...and yet, the way this is being set up may actually improve its chances of being in other competitive games. After all, why hype this up so much, have it debut in the anime despite being mid-generation, then give it all the pomp and circumstance of being event-exclusive at first, and even have a freaking plush toy announced already, if it's not meant to be a big deal? The fact that it's being treated this highly right off the bat, plus potentially being Ash's signature 'mon for the Alola region (what with his being the first of its kind in the anime canon), means the odds have risen quite a bit that it'd be on the short list of Gen 7 mons to be considered as Smash newcomers. And since the placeholders in the PGL have been there since last November, we've reason to believe they've had this all planned since last year, when development on "Smash 4 Deluxe" or whatever they're up to may have began!

It may not have been quite what we expected, but this may have worked out in our favor yet.

As far as how Dusk Lycanroc would fight conceptually, I'd imagine something a lot like how we pictured Midday fighting, but altered a bit to fit its lore once they actually release said lore. A quadrupedal build would be unusual in Smash, but not entirely impossible--we've seen the likes of Pikachu and Duck Hunt carry items with their mouths before, and while it technically shouldn't be possible to swing a hammer or operate a ray gun with just your teeth, it's easy enough to handwave in a context that's already pretty silly, at least enough for it to not be a deal breaker.

 

[Wolfie557]

Would glady play as Lycanroc, so you can add me to list if you have one.
Not buying UltraMoon/Sun tho. Still prefer the Night version the most.

It's part of my rotation of pokemon I used when I still played Moon. I basically stopped after the main game was done and got Lucario and Type Null. Haven't caught all the island totem pokemon or any of the ultra beasts yet haha but played 60hrs - lots of pokedex and island scan hunting. Should play it someday but backlog has 450hrs worth of games so.....yh.

 

[Delzethin]

Would glady play as Lycanroc, so you can add me to list if you have one.
Not buying UltraMoon/Sun tho. Still prefer the Night version the most.

It's part of my rotation of pokemon I used when I still played Moon. I basically stopped after the main game was done and got Lucario and Type Null. Haven't caught all the island totem pokemon or any of the ultra beasts yet haha but played 60hrs - lots of pokedex and island scan hunting. Should play it someday but backlog has 450hrs worth of games so.....yh.

Glad to have you on board. I'm still waiting on more news about the games, myself. Feels like a misstep to tell us all so little so close to release.


But, in the meantime, according to this video:

There has been some lore for this form released for Japanese audiences. Apparently, Dusk Lycanrocs are normally very easygoing and hard to faze, but they become a force to be reckoned with when in battle. Midnight's drive to fight, tempered and controlled by Midday's more pacifistic nature, creating a personality of a being that can and will bash some faces in, but only if the situation calls for it. You can even see it in the official reveal--the Dusk form's eyes glow like Midnight's during its attack animations!

There's actually the potential for a really interesting gimmick here. You could have the regular green eyes normally, but landing certain attacks would have the glow kick in, granting a buff that speeds up its attacks for a couple seconds every time you connect with one of them! It'd be the cornerstone of a bait-and-punish playstyle--with some trapping elements a la Stealth Rock--that'd be all about using movement and timing to find your openings, land a setup or combo starter to get the aura effect, then use your temporarily buffed frame data to get a big conversion for high damage!

 

[RandomAce]

I'm in all support in Lycanroc for smash. You made a lot of good points and ideas in your video of him that I want to support him now. I also want to connect your thoughts on how relevant and important he is to his role in the anime, also gives him a greater chance in smash bros. Lycanroc seemed to be part of a larger role with Ash and Pikachu in Ep.37 in Pokemon Sun and Moon when his Rockfuff evolved into Lycanroc and also seemed to have a greater role in Ep.47 with the rivalry with Gladion and his connection between Ash's Lycanroc and G;adion's Sivally. I specify this because Lycanroc reminds of Greninja from X and Y. Greninja played an important role in the plot of the anime alongside Ash and Pikachu and earned a spot in the smash roster and seeing Lycanroc start to take a more larger/important role in a similar spot to Greninja with Ash and Pikachu in Sun and Moon increases his chance of being added as a Gen 7 pokemon, as Sakurai pulled characters from their popularity in the pokemon anime series. (Jigglypuff in 64, Mewtwo in Melee, Lucario in Brawl, and likley Greninja in 3DS/Wii U)

Although Lycanroc can't change forms in the Pokémon games, I still like the idea of having Lycanroc change forms between his Midday and Midnight forms without having completley different movesets kind of like a stance form, it may be difficult due to one being quadruped and the other biped but I still think the developers can get it done without changing midday and midnight to much but also making them play pretty differently, it'll make the charcter fresh but not too complicated than a full transformation with completley new moves.

I would also rather change stealth rock to a more of a projectile like attack like rock throw, the idea of throwing the rock and grabbing them again feels too similar to Diddy Kong's banana peel and doesn't fit with Lycanroc that much. I think Stone Edge would fit much better for Midnight Lycanroc as his side special if the developers make it work similar to how it was depicted when he used it in the anime and fits midnights personality alot more than him using stealth rock. I don't really want Lycanroc to be in his Dusk form that was recently shown. It would great the risk of not being as unique as the ideas of switching between forms, and the developers want uniqueness in Smash.

Here's the moves to sum up my points on their moves:

Neutral B: Accelerock(Midday) - Counter Stone(Midnight)
Side B: Rock Throw(Midday) - Stone Edge(Midnight)
Up B: Rock Climb
Down B: Solar/Lunar Howl
Final Smash: Continental Crush

 

[Delzethin]

I'm in all support in Lycanroc for smash. You made a lot of good points and ideas in your video of him that I want to support him now.

Welcome aboard. Sorry about all the dust; I've had so much going on elsewhere lately that I haven't been able to keep up with everything at once. Now all we need is a proper Smash announcement, huh?

 

[RandomAce]

Welcome aboard. Sorry about all the dust; I've had so much going on elsewhere lately that I haven't been able to keep up with everything at once. Now all we need is a proper Smash announcement, huh?

That’s about it. I think his chances of getting in are greater than Decidueye since many speculators believe that it will complete all the starter types Pokémon has, but we aren’t even sure if that’s is what the developers have in mind or are even sure of Decidueye’s popularity. Not to mention that Lycanroc appears to be recieving new things and changes from the developers of Sun and Moon his consistency compared to Decidueye as of now.

 

[AwesomeAussie27]

Where did all the Lycanroc hype go?

Oh well, I guess I still would like to see what Sakurai does with him.

 

[Delzethin]

Where did all the Lycanroc hype go?

Oh well, I guess I still would like to see what Sakurai does with him.

Well...as you could probably guess by now, I'm ill equipped to run this thread on my own. I have so much else going on that things just...fall through the cracks. While I think our odds are honestly stronger than ever and getting unduly dismissed, I haven't had the means to spread word much. I'm only one person.

Which is why...I'm looking into finding someone to co-run the thread with. Anyone catching up just now, message me if you're interested--the more history you have with this kind of thing and the more trustworthy you can prove yourself to be, the better.

 

[RandomAce]

Sheesh! I just realized how dead this thread was. Did something happen, or am I missing something?

 

[Sage of Ice]

Sheesh! I just realized how dead this thread was. Did something happen, or am I missing something?

sure hope it's not dead, it would suck if my introduction to the thread was through its eulogy! Lycanroc's my #1 hope for a new pokemon in smash so if we're still going strong then sign me up as a supporter.

if this means anything, my preference would be for midday but i'd be happy with dusk form as well. not super keen on midnight form though.

 

[Delzethin]

Sheesh! I just realized how dead this thread was. Did something happen, or am I missing something?

sure hope it's not dead, it would suck if my introduction to the thread was through its eulogy! Lycanroc's my #1 hope for a new pokemon in smash so if we're still going strong then sign me up as a supporter.

Don't worry, it's not technically dead. It's just as I mentioned above, I've had too much going on with video production and other things to run the thread on my own.

Doesn't help that most Smashboards regulars have already written us off, so we haven't seen many new faces around. You'd think people would've learned to consider more options after Greninja got in despite not even having a thread, yet here we are...

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The main thing that would work against Lycanroc would be item usage. Right now, only the Midnight form is bipedal, while the Midday and Dusk forms have to rely on their teeth; they can't stand on two legs, and can't generate vines like Ivysaur.

The problem grows even further when we're talking about heavy containers and special items, as there's no chance that the Midday and Dusk forms can lift a barrel or crate, and the Daybreak requires two hands to carry.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Well, after hearing about Lycanroc's prominence in the anime, I do think he has a potentially real shot now. Though I do not think we will be getting both Decidueye and Lycanroc, I feel it is one or the other because I feel there was one Pokemon slot open for the newcomer project plan much like how Sakurai left one spot open for an X/Y character. Whichever has more gameplay potential to Sakurai is up to him though.

Do you think Decidueye being in Pokken DX will have any influence in Sakurai in trying to implement Lycanroc instead? Or would that not matter in the grand scheme of things.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Don't worry, it's not technically dead. It's just as I mentioned above, I've had too much going on with video production and other things to run the thread on my own.

Doesn't help that most Smashboards regulars have already written us off, so we haven't seen many new faces around. You'd think people would've learned to consider more options after Greninja got in despite not even having a thread, yet here we are...

Thread size isn't directly associated with perceived liklehood or popularity.
Decidueye's thread isn't the biggest either and was semi-dead too for a while and Daisy's thread is one of the biggest too.

Well, after hearing about Lycanroc's prominence in the anime, I do think he has a potentially real shot now. Though I do not think we will be getting both Decidueye and Lycanroc, I feel it is one or the other because I feel there was one Pokemon slot open for the newcomer project plan much like how Sakurai left one spot open for an X/Y character. Whichever has more gameplay potential to Sakurai is up to him though.

Do you think Decidueye being in Pokken DX will have any influence in Sakurai in trying to implement Lycanroc instead? Or would that not matter in the grand scheme of things.

Counterpoint: X and Y was only in planning phase during the last project proposal, whereas Sun and Moon released November 2016, a much better timing for Sakurai to look and get interested in multiple designs and get a clue on which Pokémon will be advertised. The completer designs and clearer picture on popularity makes me doubt the notion that this roster plan was a one-on-one copy of last time.

I don't think Pokken DX affects the Smash roster other than showing that the Pokémon devs are comfortable shoving forward Decidueye as a big selling point for the port.