Day, Night, and Dusk - Lycanroc for Smash Bros. Ultimate

[dangeraaron10]

I support Lycanroc. With Charizard losing Rock Smash, there are (to my knowledge) absolutely no earthbenders in Smash Ultimate's roster of 65 and growing. With Midna and AT again and Wolf Link being unlikely, I'd love if Lycanroc filled both my desire to play Wolf Link (or Amaterasu) and represent a new element.

Also selfishly because it'd irritate me to see another Starter not locked into the Pokemon Trainer. I'm still a little salty over losing Solo Charizard.

So yeah, my vote for a new 'mon goes to Lycanroc. Midday or Dusk, please. We could use more quadrupeds. Plus I just don't like Midnight's design.

And this Zard (P. Trainer) player to the support list!

 

[RandomAce]

Well, it looks like a bone was thrown at us...

Ultimate's Project Plan was completed in December 2015:

https://twitter.com/AllSourceGaming/status/1009455106637656064

Spring Man and Rex+Pyra definitely aren't making it, then.

Seeing how this game’s project plan was finished in 2015, we might have a Greninja situation on us again. Since it would be a year before Sun and Moon would’ve been released and finalized.

This can also throw a wrench at Dusk’s chances since it probably wasn’t even designed back in 2015.

What do you guys think of this.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Well, it looks like a bone was thrown at us...



Seeing how this game’s project plan was finished in 2015, we might have a Greninja situation on us again. Since it would be a year before Sun and Moon would’ve been released and finalized.

This can also throw a wrench at Dusk’s chances since it probably wasn’t even designed back in 2015.

What do you guys think of this.

IMO it probably means not too much. The anime is planned way in advance so they likely had Dusk settled way before then especially given that it is Ash's signature pokemon. I feel that in general this does not change too much for us. Also if you look towards the trophy section by fighter in Smash 4, Greninja is towards the bottom, which makes me think even in a greninja situation there was a bit of a wait.

 

[RandomAce]

IMO it probably means not too much. The anime is planned way in advance so they likely had Dusk settled way before then especially given that it is Ash's signature pokemon. I feel that in general this does not change too much for us. Also if you look towards the trophy section by fighter in Smash 4, Greninja is towards the bottom, which makes me think even in a greninja situation there was a bit of a wait.

I agree, although I’m not sure if the anime was planned that much as back in early 2016, but I still think Lycanroc is still likley despite whatever form it gets. Albeit the proccess will slightly different nonetheless.

 

[RandomAce]

Quick question, is everyone here under the impression that if Lycanroc were to get in it’s Dusk or bust?

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Quick question, is everyone here under the impression that if Lycanroc were to get in it’s Dusk or bust?

Not neccesarily, but a lot of pros surrounding Lycanroc (event, anime) are culminated in Dusk.

 

[Questionmark222]

If anyone hasn't read Source Gaming's latest article, it's a translation of Sakurai's latest Famitsu column where he gives details on SSBU'S development. The most important piece of info that came out of that for us speculators was definitely the fact that Smash Ultimate's project proposal was made in December 2015. So in my book it's probably gonna be a Greninja situation, since the time frame between SSB4's project proposal and X&Y's release (April 2012-October 2013) was roughly the same as the one between SSBU's project proposal and Sun&Moon's release (December 2015-November 2016). Actually as I typed this I realized it's even shorter so I think Lycanroc's a pretty safe bet, albeit probably not the Dusk Form but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Delzethin]

Quick question, is everyone here under the impression that if Lycanroc were to get in it’s Dusk or bust?

With this newest bit of news? Not necessarily. Having a confirmed Greninja situation means things could be more complicated on our end than we may have initially thought.

Mind you, that isn't necessarily a good thing or a bad thing. Could slightly help or slightly hurt us.

I support Lycanroc. With Charizard losing Rock Smash, there are (to my knowledge) absolutely no earthbenders in Smash Ultimate's roster of 65 and growing. With Midna and AT again and Wolf Link being unlikely, I'd love if Lycanroc filled both my desire to play Wolf Link (or Amaterasu) and represent a new element.

Also selfishly because it'd irritate me to see another Starter not locked into the Pokemon Trainer. I'm still a little salty over losing Solo Charizard.

So yeah, my vote for a new 'mon goes to Lycanroc. Midday or Dusk, please. We could use more quadrupeds. Plus I just don't like Midnight's design.

And this Zard (P. Trainer) player to the support list!

Welcome! We may not be very numerous, but we may be on to something the rest of the fans haven't noticed.

 

[GM_3826]

To quote what I said in Decidueye's thread:

This pretty much kills off the possibility of any ARMS fighter making it into the game (just as an example), but I think a Pokémon from Generation VII like Lycanroc who didn't have good concept art could still be part of the game since Sakurai could easily have had just put "Pokémon from Generation VII" in that that project plan and then decided on the specifics later. As far I understand, anyway.

 

[Cosmic77]

The initial project plan was finished in December 2015.

This doesn't necessarily mean Sakurai had settled on the final roster by then. Seeing how the staff weren't even hired yet, this was likely Nintendo and Sakurai working together to discuss the upcoming Switch and plan out a basic skeleton of development time. Highly doubt knowing what specific newcomers would be added was the top priority, especially since the basic idea for this game revolves around focusing on mashing all the content from previous games together.

 

[RandomAce]

The initial project plan was finished in December 2015.

This doesn't necessarily mean Sakurai had settled on the final roster by then. Seeing how the staff weren't even hired yet, this was likely Nintendo and Sakurai working together to discuss the upcoming Switch and plan out a basic skeleton of development time. Highly doubt knowing what specific newcomers would be added was the top priority, especially since the basic idea for this game revolves around focusing on mashing all the content from previous games together.

Even then, I still see Sakurai making a placeholder for a Pokémon from Sun and Moon just like he did for Pokémon X and Y until there is more finalized information on the Pokémon from Sun and Moon, so he doesn’t have to rely purely on concept art.

So Lycanroc (any form) still has a chance to get in since, it was pushed from the start before Gen 7 was released and advertised, even before Dusk Lycanroc became a thing.

 

[Delzethin]

The initial project plan was finished in December 2015.

This doesn't necessarily mean Sakurai had settled on the final roster by then. Seeing how the staff weren't even hired yet, this was likely Nintendo and Sakurai working together to discuss the upcoming Switch and plan out a basic skeleton of development time. Highly doubt knowing what specific newcomers would be added was the top priority, especially since the basic idea for this game revolves around focusing on mashing all the content from previous games together.

Even then, I still see Sakurai making a placeholder for a Pokémon from Sun and Moon just like he did for Pokémon X and Y until there is more finalized information on the Pokémon from Sun and Moon, so he doesn’t have to rely purely on concept art.

So Lycanroc (any form) still has a chance to get in since, it was pushed from the start before Gen 7 was released and advertised, even before Dusk Lycanroc became a thing.

Which is why the questions we need to be asking now are:

1. How detailed was the initial project plan, and were the newcomers already picked out by then?

2. If necessary, would they have used another placeholder for Gen 7 and came back to it a few months later like they did with Gen 6? (Probably)

3. When would they have decided on a Pokémon newcomer (regardless of if they used a placeholder)?

4. Would the anime have been planned out far enough in advance at the point where the newcomer was chosen? (Also probably)

5. When was Dusk Lycanroc's design finalized? If it wasn't ready when Sakurai came knocking, would he have been willing to wait and focus the team's effors in other places until the design was figured out? If not, would they have felt like Midday and Midnight were adequate?

I know, looks daunting, but we may only need a couple of these answered.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

The biggest point to be drawn from this is Corrin, imo.
Sakurai specifically looked for a character that just released and stumbled upon Corrin, but why look for a character around that time when you know a new Smash is releasing in three years anyway? Corrin or the other considered colleagues wouldn't fall out of the boat if Sakurai knew there would be a new Smash a-brewing. Unless, somehow, Sakurai wanted Smash Ultimate to focus on ballot results for newcomers and put in Corrin because he put relevance on the back bench for Ultimate in advance and Corrin would be lower priority.

What this means for Lycanroc is that Corrin's situation of being The New Thing from a series that changes its characters based on chronology might give some parallels, albeit indirect, can be mirrored to the Race of the 'Mon

 

[RandomAce]

The biggest point to be drawn from this is Corrin, imo.
Sakurai specifically looked for a character that just released and stumbled upon Corrin, but why look for a character around that time when you know a new Smash is releasing in three years anyway? Corrin or the other considered colleagues wouldn't fall out of the boat if Sakurai knew there would be a new Smash a-brewing. Unless, somehow, Sakurai wanted Smash Ultimate to focus on ballot results for newcomers and put in Corrin because he put relevance on the back bench for Ultimate in advance and Corrin would be lower priority.

What this means for Lycanroc is that Corrin's situation of being The New Thing from a series that changes its characters based on chronology might give some parallels, albeit indirect, can be mirrored to the Race of the 'Mon

I don’t think the newcomer lineup will consist on only ballot characters. There is bound to be some characters from recent games show up in the base roster.

Even then, Pokémon was the hottest thing when it was released and celebrated Pokemon’s 20th anniversary, so Lycanroc or any Gen VII pokemon was probably one of the first things Sakurai looked for in terms of newcomers.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

I don’t think the newcomer lineup will consist on only ballot characters. There is bound to be some characters from recent games show up in the base roster.

Even then, Pokémon was the hottest thing when it was released and celebrated Pokemon’s 20th anniversary, so Lycanroc or any Gen VII pokemon was probably one of the first things Sakurai looked for in terms of newcomers.

I'm not saying it will be ballot, ballot, ballot, but Sakurai specifically picked a recent character for DLC while planning a new game already, possibly suggesting a shift in priorities. Corrin could've just made the cut for Smash Ultimate, but he specifically went ahead and put him in Smash 4.

 

[RandomAce]

I'm not saying it will be ballot, ballot, ballot, but Sakurai specifically picked a recent character for DLC while planning a new game already, possibly suggesting a shift in priorities. Corrin could've just made the cut for Smash Ultimate, but he specifically went ahead and put him in Smash 4.

I suppose so, but the major priority for this game was to bring back all veterans.

Newcomers I believe will be a mix of both, since there wasn’t a lot of heavy hitters by the end of the Wii U/3DS cycle, there wasn’t a lot of characters Sakurai could’ve decided for Smash Ultimate. This probably is what is making him use the ballot for the other half of the newcomers he plans to add.

 

[Pokechu]

to be honest i don't think lycanroc's chances have changed a bit. Dusk is still definitely in the running. Why?

Y'all remember these?

I found that these popped up as early as June, 2016. Only 6 months after the development plan for SSBU. But look at a bit closer.

We see that Ash has his Incineroar here.

Ash's Torracat STILL hasn't evolved to Incineroar yet. What does this tell us?

The anime is planned WAAAAAY ahead. If they had Ash having an Incineroar done in June 2016, and it's June 2018 and he still doesn't have it in the anime... then that tells us that Lycanroc Dusk had been a done deal. Because Rockruff evolved into Dusk before Litten even evolved into Torracat. This tells us that Lycanroc Dusk definitely had to have been a thing before the development plan for SSBU finished, as anime events that occurred long after it had been planned only six months after the completion of the development plan.

But I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be wrong. Thoughts?

 

[Cosmic77]

to be honest i don't think lycanroc's chances have changed a bit. Dusk is still definitely in the running. Why?

Y'all remember these?

I found that these popped up as early as June, 2016. Only 6 months after the development plan for SSBU. But look at a bit closer.

We see that Ash has his Incineroar here.

Ash's Torracat STILL hasn't evolved to Incineroar yet. What does this tell us?

The anime is planned WAAAAAY ahead. If they had Ash having an Incineroar done in June 2016, and it's June 2018 and he still doesn't have it in the anime... then that tells us that Lycanroc Dusk had been a done deal. Because Rockruff evolved into Dusk before Litten even evolved into Torracat. This tells us that Lycanroc Dusk definitely had to have been a thing before the development plan for SSBU finished, as anime events that occurred long after it had been planned only six months after the completion of the development plan.

But I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be wrong. Thoughts?

Ehh... Not sure if it that's the best case for Lycanroc specifically.

Ever since the very first episode of Su/Mo, it was hinted that Ash would be the one to catch Litten. Tie that in with Incineroar's concept art and we see that the writers were pretty adamant about making Litten the star of the three starters early in production.

Seeing how it was caught in episode 15, the writers also likely knew that Rockruff would be a key Pokemon to Ash's team. However, this is where things differ from Incineroar. Incineroar is the final evo of a starter, meaning that he was likely known for a long time before Su/Mo was even released. We don't know when Dusk Lycanroc was conceived, and most of Lycanroc's greatest advantages are riding on the Dusk form. Now Dusk Lycanroc made its debut in the anime in August 2017. Based on typical production schedules, I'd say that the writers had Dusk Lycanroc planned at least five months before it's debut on TV. This is supported by the reveal of Gladion having a Midnight Lycanroc in May 2017 and the reveal of Olivia having a Midday Lycanroc in June 2017 (This was the first hint of what Rockruff would evolve into).

So as you can see, timing is a little weird. Rockruff was likely known to be important in the anime way before Sun and Moon hit store shelves, just like Incineroar. However, the absolute latest we can say Dusk Lycanroc was decided to be put in the anime is roughly between March and April 2017. That may or may not have been too late for Sakurai to choose Lycanroc, so in order for us to make a solid case, we need to find as much evidence as possible to show others that Dusk Lycanroc existed even back in 2016. The earlier the better.

 

[RandomAce]

to be honest i don't think lycanroc's chances have changed a bit. Dusk is still definitely in the running. Why?

Y'all remember these?

I found that these popped up as early as June, 2016. Only 6 months after the development plan for SSBU. But look at a bit closer.

We see that Ash has his Incineroar here.

Ash's Torracat STILL hasn't evolved to Incineroar yet. What does this tell us?

The anime is planned WAAAAAY ahead. If they had Ash having an Incineroar done in June 2016, and it's June 2018 and he still doesn't have it in the anime... then that tells us that Lycanroc Dusk had been a done deal. Because Rockruff evolved into Dusk before Litten even evolved into Torracat. This tells us that Lycanroc Dusk definitely had to have been a thing before the development plan for SSBU finished, as anime events that occurred long after it had been planned only six months after the completion of the development plan.

But I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be wrong. Thoughts?

Not really. Since we still don’t know when Dusk Lycanroc was finalized and decided to be included upon the anime. If Sakurai decided to wait until later to add a Pokémon and Dusk Lycanroc wasn’t conceived yet, then that might just diminish it’s chances.

However, it’s obvious that Lycanroc was meant to be pushed from the start. The Rockruff line recieved merchandising, and heavy advertising long before Dusk Lycanroc was revealed, which Delzethin noticed when he first made this thread (which was a year ago in early March 2017?). Lycanroc’s overall push from TPC just kept increasing overtime until and after Dusk began being utilized.

So Lycanroc was probably one of the couple of Pokémon that Sakurai was suggested from TPC when he was looking for a Gen 7 Pokémon.

If so, Lycanroc has the added bonus of having multiple forms to go off of. If Dusk wasn’t conceived yet, there is still Midday and Midnight and they’re were still meant to be heavily promoted upon release. If Dusk was already finalized, it’s really up to Sakurai to see what he wants to with Lycanroc, since there are so many ways to go about with this character. And for all we know he may not even choose Dusk and do something else entirely that he might think is unique to make it a fighter.

It’s really just about timing and whether Sakurai thinks Lycanroc has an interesting concept to go by, and what that concept is.

 

[Desdar300]

So a few things
> The Project plan being finalized in 2015
To me, this drastically increases the chances of a SM Mon being in SSBU since 2015 was a dry year for Pokemon and gen VII was right around the corner .
Moreover, I'm sure Dusk was a thing back then as well since there was placeholder holder data for it in vanilla SM as well.

It all comes down to who's the lucky Mon that got picked but to me Lycanroc still has a lot of lead-way over most Alolan Pokemon.
The species itself are closely tied to the Gen Vii mascots and each come equipped with their own quirks.

 

[Delzethin]

The biggest point to be drawn from this is Corrin, imo.
Sakurai specifically looked for a character that just released and stumbled upon Corrin, but why look for a character around that time when you know a new Smash is releasing in three years anyway? Corrin or the other considered colleagues wouldn't fall out of the boat if Sakurai knew there would be a new Smash a-brewing. Unless, somehow, Sakurai wanted Smash Ultimate to focus on ballot results for newcomers and put in Corrin because he put relevance on the back bench for Ultimate in advance and Corrin would be lower priority.

Considering the very first project plan for Ultimate dates back to December 2015, it means Corrin must've been chosen before there was any talk of another Smash game. Therefore, the "now or never" mindset still applied at the time, so it tells us nothing about what Ultimate's newcomer choices will be like.

to be honest i don't think lycanroc's chances have changed a bit. Dusk is still definitely in the running. Why?

Y'all remember these?

I found that these popped up as early as June, 2016. Only 6 months after the development plan for SSBU. But look at a bit closer.

We see that Ash has his Incineroar here.

Ash's Torracat STILL hasn't evolved to Incineroar yet. What does this tell us?

The anime is planned WAAAAAY ahead. If they had Ash having an Incineroar done in June 2016, and it's June 2018 and he still doesn't have it in the anime... then that tells us that Lycanroc Dusk had been a done deal. Because Rockruff evolved into Dusk before Litten even evolved into Torracat. This tells us that Lycanroc Dusk definitely had to have been a thing before the development plan for SSBU finished, as anime events that occurred long after it had been planned only six months after the completion of the development plan.

But I don't know. I wouldn't be surprised if this turns out to be wrong. Thoughts?

You make a good point. The question then becomes how far back that original concept art goes (since it was merely leaked in June 2016; we have no idea when it was originally made), and if the Incineroar drawing with Ash and Mallow was made with the knowledge that Ash would have a Litten on his team that would evolve twice (since there's even still a chance that it stays a Torracat, for all we know). Who knows, the drawing may have just been for fun, and we need to consider all options.

So as you can see, timing is a little weird. Rockruff was likely known to be important in the anime way before Sun and Moon hit store shelves, just like Incineroar. However, the absolute latest we can say Dusk Lycanroc was decided to be put in the anime is roughly between March and April 2017. That may or may not have been too late for Sakurai to choose Lycanroc, so in order for us to make a solid case, we need to find as much evidence as possible to show others that Dusk Lycanroc existed even back in 2016. The earlier the better.

Actually, we know there were placeholders for more forms on the Global Link from the moment it updated for Gen 7, so we can at least reason that the first concepts for Dusk Lycanroc date back to no later than November 2016. It could easily have been around earlier, but we do not have any evidence for any further back that points in either direction.

However, it’s obvious that Lycanroc was meant to be pushed from the start. The Rockruff line recieved merchandising, and heavy advertising long before Dusk Lycanroc was revealed, which Delzethin noticed when he first made this thread (which was a year ago in early March 2017?). Lycanroc’s overall push from TPC just kept increasing overtime until and after Dusk began being utilized.

So Lycanroc was probably one of the couple of Pokémon that Sakurai was suggested from TPC when he was looking for a Gen 7 Pokémon.

If so, Lycanroc has the added bonus of having multiple forms to go off of. If Dusk wasn’t conceived yet, there is still Midday and Midnight and they’re were still meant to be heavily promoted upon release. If Dusk was already finalized, it’s really up to Sakurai to see what he wants to with Lycanroc, since there are so many ways to go about with this character. And for all we know he may not even choose Dusk and do something else entirely that he might think is unique to make it a fighter.

It’s really just about timing and whether Sakurai thinks Lycanroc has an interesting concept to go by, and what that concept is.

Speaking of which, there's a crazier idea I've been considering: What if TPC had Lycanroc chosen to be Ash's ace for Alola back in late 2015, but hadn't decided which form yet? What if Dusk Lycanroc can about as a result of them having trouble deciding?

What if we ended up with something like a Lycanroc that shifted between Midday and Midnight as the main concept, with Dusk Lycanroc as an echo fighter that stuck with Midday's moveset and didn't transform?

Hey, I said it was crazy.

 

[Dashing Cobras]

Add me to the supporters list! When I first saw Delzethin's concept vid on Lycanroc, I thought it was a cool idea, but I didn't think Lycanroc was a serious contender for Smash. But boy how have the times changed. With all the promotion in the anime, TCG, merchandise and the new Dusk form being Ash's ace Pokemon in said anime, I now think Lycanroc is the most likely Pokemon newcomer. I've grown quite fond of the Wolf Pokemon ever since I used the Dusk form in my Ultra Sun run and its right up there with Decidueye as one of my favorite mons from Alola. Lycanroc also has a lot to offer in terms of a unique moveset, being a feral earthbender, which is something we have yet to see in Smash. I'd also argue that Sakurai was aware of Dusk form Lycanroc as well as other various content from Ultra Sun and Moon considering that one of Pokemon Trainers alts is based on Moon's design from Ultra Sun and Moon and not Sun and Moon. With all of that said, I support our Stone Doggo and wouldn't be suprised to see an announcement about it within the next few months.

 

[Delzethin]

Add me to the supporters list! When I first saw Delzethin's concept vid on Lycanroc, I thought it was a cool idea, but I didn't think Lycanroc was a serious contender for Smash. But boy how have the times changed. With all the promotion in the anime, TCG, merchandise and the new Dusk form being Ash's ace Pokemon in said anime, I now think Lycanroc is the most likely Pokemon newcomer. I've grown quite fond of the Wolf Pokemon ever since I used the Dusk form in my Ultra Sun run and its right up there with Decidueye as one of my favorite mons from Alola. Lycanroc also has a lot to offer in terms of a unique moveset, being a feral earthbender, which is something we have yet to see in Smash. I'd also argue that Sakurai was aware of Dusk form Lycanroc as well as other various content from Ultra Sun and Moon considering that one of Pokemon Trainers alts is based on Moon's design from Ultra Sun and Moon and not Sun and Moon. With all of that said, I support our Stone Doggo and wouldn't be suprised to see an announcement about it within the next few months.

Welcome! Glad to see you coming out of the woodworks.

You actually make a good point about one of Leaf's alts being based on USUM in particular. While the alternate colors are undoubtedly more flexible and wouldn't have been locked in right when newcomers were chosen, this does give us proof that they did look at the games at some point.

Now we need to determine what more we can figure out from that. Do we have a timeframe for when alternate colors were chosen in past Smash games? Is there any concept art of the USUM protagonists that has dates of creation on them?

 

[Cosmic77]

I won't read too much into alts, mainly because they're so quick and easy to make. However, seeing any type of acknowledgement specifically for US/UM is good. At the very least, we now have an official confirmation that the development team is including content from those games. Not a huge shocker, but nice to know regardless.

 

[BluePikmin11]

The Smash Ultimate team had 2+ years to prepare for showing at E3 2018, so it is no surprise that new content is present.

 

[RandomAce]

Low and behold, here are my complete thoughts on Lycanroc.

Okay, so since speculation is going to seem dire, I’m going to be making in depth thoughts on some of the characters that people are speculating about. Mostly because I want to get my ideas out there and my opinions on some of the characters people are showcasing and some things I want to get off my chest. Also know that these are my opinions and you may see the stuff I say differently.

Warning: These are going to be ****load wall levels of text.

Starting today I will be sharing my in depth thoughts on Lycanoc.

1: Lycanroc (Midday/Dusk/Midnight)

View attachment 150139

As some of you might know, Lycanroc is the Wolf Pokemon from Pokemon Sun and Moon and the evolution of Rockruff. In the original Pokémon Sun and Moon, Rockruff could evolve into one of two forms, Midday Lycanroc in Pokemon Sun during the day, and Midnight Lycanroc in Pokemon Moon during the night. Lycanroc also have geokinetic earth like powers that they specialize in. Dusk was a new form introduced in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon through a special Rockruff obtained through an event that can evolve during the 5:00 to 5:59 in the morning or afternoon in either version.

Spoiler: Midday and Midnight Lycanroc (Stance Fighter)

Midday and Midnight:

View attachment 150129

One of the main reason why I like Lycanroc is it’s concept. The whole concept of Lycanroc is to have two opposites of a whole, a yin and yang sort of opposite.

View attachment 150131
View attachment 150132

Their concept art showcases how the dual evolutions are complete opposites of each other. They have different fur color, stance with midday a quadruped normal looking wolf and midnight a bipedal and more werewolf like, different personalities with one being modest and calm and the other being battle thirsty and fierce, and one being a powerhouse while the other is more speedy and is weaker. This and their more simple designs is what makes me like Lycanroc. They’re two half’s of a whole that demonstrate their contrasts from one another with more simpler characteristics that makes them lovable.

With this, Midday and Midnight were heavily pushed from the beginning of Pokémon Sun and Moon’s hype cycle. With lots merchandising and appearances in the anime (with Midnight and Midday being key battles Ash has to face against Olivia and Gladion respectively). It was obvious Lycanroc was meant to be big from the start.

However, one of the first things I could see as a reason for Sakurai choosing Lycanroc is due to it’s dualistic concept, with having both Midday and Midnight Lycanroc as a stance fighter where they can switch out with either to have a fast quick pressure heavy character and a bait and punish strong character. Both having access to the same moveset but a different special, Stats, and play style. That and along with earth abilities that no one else has, Lycanroc can be a big standout and unique character from the rest of the cast. This unique and integral concept is what makes me think this what Sakurai will find the most interesting and try to implement in the game. That and with Lycanroc already being planned as pushed Pokémon makes this possibility a lot more plausible.

Spoiler: Dusk Lycanroc

Warning: Soon this section’s will make my thoughts on Dusk will @Cutie Gwen’s Lycanroc hatred put to shame.

Dusk:

View attachment 150130

Dusk Lycanroc one of the first Pokémon revealed for Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon. It is meant to be an combination of both Lycanroc forms into a single form. Dusk Lycanroc then rose to be the prominent form, being Ash’s signature Pokémon, having lots of merchandise and heavy promotion.

However, I don’t like it as much compared to the other two forms. And if I had to describe my thoughts on Dusk Lycanroc, it would be one word...

Lazy...

View attachment 150140

I’m sorry but Dusk Lycanroc is easily the most RUSHED, UNINSPIRING, COPY PASTED, CHEAPILY MADE, BADLY DESINGED pushed piece of trash in Pokemon’s history.

View attachment 150142

I mean look at this, LOOK AT THIS! What kind of ATROCITY did they do when developing this form. WAS IT EVEN DEVELOPED AT ALL!? Not only is Dusk Lycanroc’s design a blatant copy of midday with a horn and recoloring and called it a day, how is it even possible when IT’S ****ING CONCEPT ART is literally just ripped from Midday’s concept art. They literally just recolored it, and that’s it and are pushing something that they put little effort into! SCREW THIS FORM! I LOVE IT! BUT F******** THIS FORM!

And it’s a shame, because Dusk looks like an incomplete algomation of the two. Unlike Midday and Midnight Lycanroc who’s designs are more refined to be contrasted from each other, by having Dusk mostly use Midday’s concept art and model, Dusk looks like a recolored Midday, sharing it’s characteristics and has a similar personality to Midday and doesn’t carry many characteristics from Midnight. His stats also don’t really replicate this either. Leaning more on the faster weaker side than a balance, which holds true because Midday’s stance is meant to look more fast and quick, which is what Dusk would also look because it carries Midday’s stance and build. Thus, when looking at the three, it’s more screwed towards midday, instead of being a balance of the two.

Dusk on it’s own has unique traits. Obviously it has rock abilites and a combination of Midday’s and Midnight’s moveset, and it can use it’s stat boost from the anime as well (if Sakurai knows well into that as well, which is quite likely since it’s a simple unique ability). So there is some that can make Dusk Lycanroc stand out on it’s own.

It is no doubt that when Sakurai was selecting a Pokémon to be a newcomer Dusk Lycanroc was most likely available as well and was also probably suggested. However, there is something that I think is what makes Dusk a little bit less likley.

Spoiler: Final Verdict

FINAL VERDICT:
When looking at Lycanroc I can see one of two possibilities.

A) Midday and Midnight:
An earth based stance fighter that can swap between a Day and Night Lycanroc and switch between a quick stage controlling/rushdown character between a bait and punish stronger slower play style.

B) Dusk:
An earth based situation fighter that can use both Midday’s and Midnight’s abilities to adjust in battle and also use a stat boost in some occasions to help it in battle.

Verdict:
In my opinion, I think Midday and Midnight will win out and become our playable stance Pokémon fighter. Yes, Dusk it the one that appears in the anime, yes Dusk is the one that gets the promotion that it gets now. However, having a sole stance fighter AND rock user is what I think Sakurai will find most appealing when it comes to Lycanroc as it can make Lycanroc very different from the rest of the roster (plus Midday and Midnight are still popular and still get promotion from TPC).

Dusk can still be unique but it just isn’t at the level of using both Midday and Midnight as a stance fighter and have to same abilites from Dusk with more, and it’s something I can see Sakurai end up deciding.

Now if Dusk ends up getting in, then I will be disappointed, I only support having Midday and Midnight as it just seems more interesting and can represent Lycanroc much better in it’s design and personalities. Count me out for supporting Dusk as it doesn’t do a good job at all when it comes to being a combination of both forms and looks rather rush and ill-done with very little thought going into it. It’s concept art also proves this, as it’s ripped from Midday’s.

Yes, a lot of evidence does come from Dusk, but it’s the only form ever talked about when it comes to Lycanroc in both the Lycanroc support thread and speculation, seeing that it’s Dusk or bust as if Dusk were to get deconfirmed it’s a done deal when we have another more interesting possibility.

And with that, I’m done.

Cheers!

To sum up, my most wanted is Midday and Midnight Lycanroc. I would be slightly disappointed if Dusk joins instead.

So if you want to know my thoughts on Lycanroc, well that gives you my full opinion. Also I think I posted this in the other thread at the wrong time on the other thread, hence why it’s here.

 

[Dashing Cobras]

Speaking of alts, what do you guys think are some possible alternate colors for Lycanroc?

Will its shiny form (or a variation of it) show up? Maybe a few of its alts could be based on the other Lycanroc forms. Or pherhaps we can get colors based other canine Pokemon or Mons from Alola?

 

[Eagle]

Even if Sakurai had chosen to use midday form before anyone realised dusk form was a thing, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to change Lycanroc to dusk form. It is a pretty lazy design, to be honest. Still cool though.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even if Sakurai had chosen to use midday form before anyone realised dusk form was a thing, I think it wouldn't be too difficult to change Lycanroc to dusk form. It is a pretty lazy design, to be honest. Still cool though.

Midday's design isn't anything outlandish, but that's why I like it. I think it's nice to occasionally get a Pokemon that looks relatively normal.

Anyway, I feel like this is a scenario people often forget about. The moveset might not match perfectly (not that Smash has ever cared about that before), but Sakurai could easily make Dusk an alt of Midday and vice-versa.

 

[Eagle]

Midday's design isn't anything outlandish, but that's why I like it. I think it's nice to occasionally get a Pokemon that looks relatively normal.

Sorry, I meant Dusk form is lazy since it's barely more than a recolor of Midday. I really think of Sakurai was going with Midday he would instead change to Dusk form since it's not much of an update.

 

[Cosmic77]

We might want to pay attention to the upcoming anime episodes. Seems like Ash's Torracat is getting some development with Incineroar. The only other Pokemon who can put up a fight against Lycanroc in terms of a push in the anime is the Litten evolution line. Seeing how Lycanroc has gotten it's "berserk state" under control and has already gotten it's exclusive Z-crystal, this could make way for Torracat to steal away the focus.

Whoever gets the focus in the last arc(s) of the anime could determine who would've been more likely to get chosen for Smash.

 

[RandomAce]

We might want to pay attention to the upcoming anime episodes. Seems like Ash's Torracat is getting some development with Incineroar. The only other Pokemon who can put up a fight against Lycanroc in terms of a push in the anime is the Litten evolution line. Seeing how Lycanroc has gotten it's "berserk state" under control and has already gotten it's exclusive Z-crystal, this could make way for Torracat to steal away the focus.

Whoever gets the focus in the last arc(s) of the anime could determine who would've been more likely to get chosen for Smash.

When is the last arc going to begin?

On side note, apparently there is a rumor the Rowlet is going to evolve. Now if that’s the case and Rowlet ends up being the star of the last arc and becomes Decidueye, then... yeah we have even more stiffer competition.

 

[Delzethin]

With my latest project finished, now I can breathe easy for a little while. Let me respond to some things I've been meaning to...

Low and behold, here are my complete thoughts on Lycanroc.

To sum up, my most wanted is Midday and Midnight Lycanroc. I would be slightly disappointed if Dusk joins instead.

So if you want to know my thoughts on Lycanroc, well that gives you my full opinion. Also I think I posted this in the other thread at the wrong time on the other thread, hence why it’s here.

While Dusk Lycanroc admittedly feels retread-y in design, the lore and personality are where it compensates. You're on the mark about the duality between Midday and Midnight, and how they play off each other as two familiar yet very different halves of a greater whole. What makes Dusk so interesting...is that it takes both sides and crams them into one entity. The easygoing passiveness of Midday and battle thirst of Midnight are at constant odds with each other, and while the games never do anything with that, the anime has. As we've seen, it takes discipline and a greater understanding to bring balance between the two halves, but mastering them allows for taking on the strengths of either at will without ever losing control. And the odds are far more likely than not that Sakurai would've been privy to this information if Dusk's concept was around at the time.

It's like that old saying about each person's mind being like a symbolic battle between two wolves, with the winner being whichever you "feed" more. Except here, you take a third option and get the two to work together instead!

We might want to pay attention to the upcoming anime episodes. Seems like Ash's Torracat is getting some development with Incineroar. The only other Pokemon who can put up a fight against Lycanroc in terms of a push in the anime is the Litten evolution line. Seeing how Lycanroc has gotten it's "berserk state" under control and has already gotten it's exclusive Z-crystal, this could make way for Torracat to steal away the focus.

Whoever gets the focus in the last arc(s) of the anime could determine who would've been more likely to get chosen for Smash.

When is the last arc going to begin?

On side note, apparently there is a rumor the Rowlet is going to evolve. Now if that’s the case and Rowlet ends up being the star of the last arc and becomes Decidueye, then... yeah we have even more stiffer competition.

Worth keeping an eye out, but I don't think we need to sweat juuuust yet. Ash's Greninja had a constant presence and focus in the Kalos anime even before it was a Greninja and after mastering the Ash-Greninja form. We have a similar pattern going here, with Ash's Lycanroc having racked up major roles for more or less the last year, and gaining control of its berserk state doesn't inherently mean that'll stop. And after just being the focus of a story arc that lasted 3 episodes (with a one episode break in the middle), it's actually pretty understandable that they'd want to give other 'mons and characters the spotlight for a while! Especially since the Alola anime'll keep going until the middle of next year.

In fact, this upcoming Masked Royal episode is the first time Ash's Torracat has had any focus since evolving. So, keep tabs on things, but I don't think we're about to have the rug pulled out from under us yet.

 

[Desdar300]

I'm just repeating but what Delzethin stated was correct.
Dusk form cuts out the middle man and gives you both the powers of Midday and Midnight for the price of one and is the stronger of the two.
The anime has spend the last few episodes hyping up that fact and making a case for it.
IMO, Dusk was definitely a thing even during the SM cycle but they probably held off for one reason or another.
( Data for it exist in SM's GTS system)

 

[TCT~Phantom]

I resized Fire_Voyager 's lycanroc stock icon for signatures now.

 

[Cosmic77]

View attachment 150975

I resized Fire_Voyager 's lycanroc stock icon for signatures now.

Thank you so much for resizing it. I've wanted to add it to my sig for quite a while now.

 

[Jetsurge]

I think if Lycanroc is in it will be the Dusk form. I think they would've started off with the day form and then would've just easily replaced it with the dusk form around Ultra Sun and Moon's development since it basically is just a colour swap.

 

[RandomAce]

I think if Lycanroc is in it will be the Dusk form. I think they would've started off with the day form and then would've just easily replaced it with the dusk form around Ultra Sun and Moon's development since it basically is just a colour swap.

Why did they solely start off with the Day form? If anything Sakurai most likely planned to use Midday with Midnight but not on it’s own, it doesn’t make sense.

I agree, I think Dusk is probably the most likely, but by a little.

 

[Walfan]

Throwing in my support for this dog. In his quadrupedal forms he has easily become one of my favourite Pokemon and I'd love to see him in Smash. I think there's a lot of potential for an interesting moveset.

As for his chances, I'd put my money on either him or Incineroar getting in. Sakurai would probably feel that Mimikyu, while popular and pushed, would be too visually similar to Pikachu and Pichu (even if using ghost/dark moves), and I don't personally think there's much potential to make him a new and exciting character. The other likely candidate, Decidueye, is popular and interesting but I think it's important to keep in mind that Greninja wasn't chosen for Pokken because of his inclusion in Smash. I then think that Decidueye's presence in Pokken may very well mean he wasn't chosen for Smash Ultimate.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Yknow as time goes by, I am more and more confident lycanroc is gonna be in. Everything seems so well aligned for him right now. Incineroar also has a shot, but I feel lycanroc being more interesting moveset wise will help him a lot.