Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[NinjaLink]

1122 is strictly for olimar. Tornado hold is another method of ridding pikmin and also another way to edgeguard olimar.

 

[Fenrir VII]

1313, 1312, 1311, 1323, 1322, 1112, 1122, 3323, 3313, 1333

So we have a repeated 1313 and 1311, 2 mostly redundant Shadow Blade sets, 4 Skull Barrier sets (do we really need 4 different anti-camp sets???? I have trouble coming up with that many chars where it's notably better to choose SB over LS or PB), and no Ice Slasher set...

I gotta say i'm disappointed and feel like I wasted my (proverbial) breath in this discussion, when redundant sets were chosen over a single setup that benefits different matchups.

 

[ChopperDave]

1313, 1312, 1311, 1323, 1322, 1112, 1122, 3323, 3313, 1333

So we have a repeated 1313 and 1311, 2 mostly redundant Shadow Blade sets, 4 Skull Barrier sets (do we really need 4 different anti-camp sets???? I have trouble coming up with that many chars where it's notably better to choose SB over LS or PB), and no Ice Slasher set...

I gotta say i'm disappointed and feel like I wasted my (proverbial) breath in this discussion, when redundant sets were chosen over a single setup that benefits different matchups.

It's not ideal, but it's certainly better than v1.0. At least now we have not one but two 132x sets, which makes me happy because those are becoming my preferred loadouts. Hopefully we'll get some good Tornado Hold, Shadow Blade, Plant Barrier, and Skull Barrier meta development and video out of this.

In the meantime, we should get some video of Hyper Bomb, Ice Slasher, and Beat being used in friendlies. Some people have made bold claims about those moves but I remain skeptical!

 

[DelxDoom]

1313 and 1323, cool. And 1333, also cool.

 

[NinjaLink]

It's not ideal, but it's certainly better than v1.0. At least now we have not one but two 132x sets, which makes me happy because those are becoming my preferred loadouts. Hopefully we'll get some good Tornado Hold, Shadow Blade, Plant Barrier, and Skull Barrier meta development and video out of this.

In the meantime, we should get some video of Hyper Bomb, Ice Slasher, and Beat being used in friendlies. Some people have made bold claims about those moves but I remain skeptical!

I've messed around with Hyper Bomb and found uses but I dont know what matchup it would be better than the other 2 choices.

 

[ChopperDave]

I've messed around with Hyper Bomb and found uses but I dont know what matchup it would be better than the other 2 choices.

You can do some cool stuff with item Hyper Bomb, like a frame 1 z-drop with platform cancel to blow up platforms, and dthrow bomb bounce mixups. It can also be handy to throw straight up for defensive play and edgeguards, Peach style.

I can see the potential uses for it, but yeah, Metal Blade just seems better most of the time. HB is pretty slow, is just as catchable as MB, and the throw angles are hard to wrap your head around.

 

[NinjaLink]

You can do some cool stuff with item Hyper Bomb, like a frame 1 z-drop with platform cancel to blow up platforms, and dthrow bomb bounce mixups. It can also be handy to throw straight up for defensive play and edgeguards, Peach style.

I can see the potential uses for it, but yeah, Metal Blade just seems better most of the time. HB is pretty slow, is just as catchable as MB, and the throw angles are hard to wrap your head around.

Its hard sometimes throwing it up and it can explode on its own if its in no ones hands for a certain amount of time.
the only real advantage is if you JC toss HB towards them and they block, its a guaranteed grab. More blockstun then MB and dont have to worry about it randomly disappearing. They cant roll or anything due to the increased shield stun. Chaining it on shield is funny.

 

[mega4000]

Its hard sometimes throwing it up and it can explode on its own if its in no ones hands for a certain amount of time.
the only real advantage is if you JC toss HB towards them and they block, its a guaranteed grab. More blockstun then MB and dont have to worry about it randomly disappearing. They cant roll or anything due to the increased shield stun. Chaining it on shield is funny.

ninja link, what happens if you win a game and your opponent changes character? can you change set after he changes the caracter? because if you can't, what's the point of having sets for specifical matchups?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

ninja link, what happens if you win a game and your opponent changes character? can you change set after he changes the caracter? because if you can't, what's the point of having sets for specifical matchups?

This is generally-accepted standard, which the vast majority of tournaments adhere to.

In the first game of a set, characters/custom sets are picked double-blind on request (if you have a third person, you both tell him what characters you're using, so that there's no counterpicking going on), or you just pick your characters. Then you both strike from the available stages to pick the first level (I strike Battlefield, you strike Final Destination, we play on Smashville).

In all following games, the loser of the previous game picks the stage, then the winner picks their character/custom set, then the loser picks their character/custom set. The only limiter is that after a player wins for the first time, they can pick one or two stages that are disallowed for the rest of the set; there usually isn't anything preventing the loser from switching characters or custom moves.

 

[mega4000]

This is generally-accepted standard, which the vast majority of tournaments adhere to.

In the first game of a set, characters/custom sets are picked double-blind on request (if you have a third person, you both tell him what characters you're using, so that there's no counterpicking going on), or you just pick your characters. Then you both strike from the available stages to pick the first level (I strike Battlefield, you strike Final Destination, we play on Smashville).

In all following games, the loser of the previous game picks the stage, then the winner picks their character/custom set, then the loser picks their character/custom set. The only limiter is that after a player wins for the first time, they can pick one or two stages that are disallowed for the rest of the set; there usually isn't anything preventing the loser from switching characters or custom moves.

then whats the point of having counter pick sets? I mean if winner player isn't gonna change his character, at least he should have the right to change his set depending on the matchup. If that isn't the case then a lot of sets won't be used ever just for the fear of that. For example, with that rules I would never drop skull shield in a blind pick nor choose the shadow blade or the crash bomb.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

then whats the point of having counter pick sets? I mean if winner player isn't gonna change his character, at least he should have the right to change his set depending on the matchup. If that isn't the case then a lot of sets won't be used ever just for the fear of that. For example, with that rules I would never drop skull shield in a blind pick nor choose the shadow blade or the crash bomb.

The loser is supposed to be the one counterpicking, not the winner. If you win the first game (which is almost devoid of outright counterpicking due to double-blind stuff), then you can rest assured knowing that even if you get counterpicked Game 2 and lose, you get to counterpick them Game 3.

 

[mega4000]

The loser is supposed to be the one counterpicking, not the winner. If you win the first game (which is almost devoid of outright counterpicking due to double-blind stuff), then you can rest assured knowing that even if you get counterpicked Game 2 and lose, you get to counterpick them Game 3.

what about the first game? I mean at least there you could choose your customs after both of them select the character right? because I find stupid to go for blind customs even in the first game. Also as I said, with this in mind skull barrier will be the prominent blind pick in order to avoid camper counter picks. Seriously, choosing customs is not counter picking is just preparing for your matchup better. I find it stupid to force a match between to blind customs, who can you rank character like that? you can't even consider 1122 unlessyou lost a game. Imagine if you win against an olimar and you stick to that set and then he goes for another character, whats the point of that match? is like throwing game 2.

 

[ChopperDave]

I can see what @ mega4000 is getting at. Forcing the winner to choose character and customs at the same time will generally force him to take the "safest" set, which is both boring and puts the winner at a significant disadvantage. (After all, this is the reason that we don't let Loser pick stage and character at the same time.) Loser can choose a character counterpick AND optimize that character to take advantage of weaknesses in Winner's customs loadout. In other words, Loser gets more advantages in a Customs-On environment under these rules.

It would make more sense to me if it went Winner bans -> Loser selects stage -> Winner selects character -> Loser selects character -> Winner selects customs loadout -> Loser selects customs loadout. It's not like it would take that much longer, and it would allow Mega Man, for example, to "counterpick" Skull Barrier against a projectile heavy opponent and then allow Loser to "counter-counter-pick" moves that avoid or punish SkB (like Samus's non-projectile Charge Shot--not that anyone would ever counterpick Samus vs. MM, but this is just a theoretical example ). But this is getting off topic...

 

[mega4000]

I can see what @ mega4000 is getting at. Forcing the winner to choose character and customs at the same time will generally force him to take the "safest" set, which is both boring and puts the winner at a significant disadvantage. (After all, this is the reason that we don't let Loser pick stage and character at the same time.) Loser can choose a character counterpick AND optimize that character to take advantage of weaknesses in Winner's customs loadout. In other words, Loser gets more advantages in a Customs-On environment under these rules.

It would make more sense to me if it went Winner bans -> Loser selects stage -> Winner selects character -> Loser selects character -> Winner selects customs loadout -> Loser selects customs loadout. It's not like it would take that much longer, and it would allow Mega Man, for example, to "counterpick" Skull Barrier against a projectile heavy opponent and then allow Loser to "counter-counter-pick" moves that avoid or punish SkB (like Samus's non-projectile Charge Shot--not that anyone would ever counterpick Samus vs. MM, but this is just a theoretical example ). But this is getting off topic...

yes, this exactly! also imagine if in the first match the opponent waits for you to choose character and set. Loser already got the stage advantage and the character advantage, so why the heck he has the right to see your set before he even picks the character? is like, he can actually see your char, see your set and then pick a character that your set can't fight with everything that gives you advantage. In this scenario I would never drop my skull barrier bcs the consequences of facing a spammer character without skull barrier are huge. It's stupid and actually this thing can kill custom moves in a single day because it will make matches way more boring. Imagine a tier list with tournament results based on this rule? you don't even know if your char has good matchups against another char if you are forced to pick blind. This is how it should be, posted by @Piford in another topic:
Round 1
Blind Pick Character
Blind Pick Custom
Stage Strike

Round 2+
Winner Bans Stages
Loser Picks Stage
Winner Picks Character
Loser Picks Character
Winner Choses Customs
Loser Choses Customs

The loser already got the stage select as an advantage, the character select as an advantage, and the custom select after as an advantage, so why the heck he needs to get another advantage in making the winner blind pick customs? it doesn't make sence and I tell you people right now with that customs are guaranteed to be dropped. It actually can make the matchups worst.

 

[Erimir]

Presumably there would be a point at which the loser got too much advantage. If you think about the custom select as being an additional advantage added on top of what was already there, isn't it debatable then that losers should get to pick customs after the winner instead of simultaneously or after?

Also, duh, you're actually making four choices when you pick customs.

Winner chooses custom 1
Loser chooses custom 1
etc.

Custom 1 could be either the neutral B for both, or to make things exciting, they don't have to go in a particular order!

This would be very practical and quick.

 

[Fenrir VII]

This discussion should really be moved to one of the board-wide custom moveset legality threads... we're not going to solve anything on the Megaman boards.

I feel like there's a very real issue with the current list of customs that we have that needs to be fixed. Either by revising our EVO inputs (not sure if possible) or by at least continuing to churn this list for later. Remember the first custom moves project would limit us even further to 6, so I don't exactly want to take this list as "standard" and pair down from there.

Real questions... do we honestly need:
- Repeated 1313 and 1311 (I personally think 1311 should stay and 1313 should be cut)
- 2 mostly redundant Shadow Blade sets (1 Rush, 1 TH)
- 4 Skull Barrier sets
- An Olimar-centric set that is just a repeat of 1322 with Crash Bomb

while completely excluding Ice Slasher and Hyper Bomb, and limiting Beat to 1 set.
I'm not even a huge fan of these yet, but I have to admit that the possibilities they all give are potentially more useful than any of the bullets listed above.

Ice Slasher is easily the move of choice against G&W, and is potentially the best move against the slower zone-controlling chars, as was illustrated in a thread by @ Locke 06 ... It at least has the potential to be a good 3rd option.

Hyper Bomb has its own setups and tricks, and honestly I don't think any of us have given it enough time to find its usefulness.

Beat is arguably our best recovery move.

Whether or not you like these moves individually does not indicate that they should never be used in any circumstance... which is what this list is doing.

 

[Locke 06]

I get 132x, but I would like to hear when you'd run 1322 over 1312.

As odd as 1122 is, I can see its use vs Olimar. However, is it that significantly better than 1112 vs Olimar to warrant a slot? Because I can't think of other MU's where I'd run that (note: I have very little experience with tornado hold).

That's all I have on the 4 skull barrier sets.

While IS is not a great move objectively, it non-trivially strengthens Mega Man's zoning/neutral in MU's where crash bomb is not very effective. As I read the Bowser MU discussion, I realize more how useful IS is in that MU, along with other MU's I've stated before. IS vs Dedede makes it even easier, as you have another projectile to reflect gordos when lemons get too stale. Also, dedede loses the minute he gets above Mega.

I think an IS set would be more beneficial for Mega Man than the Olimar set or 1322. However, I'm not going to evo and I'll just upload my own IS set for the tournaments I do attend. So, meh.

I'll get some videos of IS soon. If @ Kofu isn't too busy this week/weekend, I may be able to get some IS vs G&W footage up.

 

[Kofu]

I get 132x, but I would like to hear when you'd run 1322 over 1312.

As odd as 1122 is, I can see its use vs Olimar. However, is it that significantly better than 1112 vs Olimar to warrant a slot? Because I can't think of other MU's where I'd run that (note: I have very little experience with tornado hold).

That's all I have on the 4 skull barrier sets.

While IS is not a great move objectively, it non-trivially strengthens Mega Man's zoning/neutral in MU's where crash bomb is not very effective. As I read the Bowser MU discussion, I realize more how useful IS is in that MU, along with other MU's I've stated before. IS vs Dedede makes it even easier, as you have another projectile to reflect gordos when lemons get too stale. Also, dedede loses the minute he gets above Mega.

I think an IS set would be more beneficial for Mega Man than the Olimar set or 1322. However, I'm not going to evo and I'll just upload my own IS set for the tournaments I do attend. So, meh.

I'll get some videos of IS soon. If @ Kofu isn't too busy this week/weekend, I may be able to get some IS vs G&W footage up.

Sure. That'll give me a chance to see if Efficient Panic is useful against Mega at all, too.

Related to the Ice Slasher discussion, I'm not sure why it's so looked down upon when Luigi's Iceballs are considered useful and the moves are fairly similar. I believe they both deal 4% and travel about the same distance. Just knowing the defaults, Iceballs probably come out quicker but that seems like the main direct advantage. Luigi gets more damage off of Iceballs thanks to his combo ability but Mega Man has a solid set of aerials, too, and I could see Ice Slasher being useful for that.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Sure. That'll give me a chance to see if Efficient Panic is useful against Mega at all, too.

Related to the Ice Slasher discussion, I'm not sure why it's so looked down upon when Luigi's Iceballs are considered useful and the moves are fairly similar. I believe they both deal 4% and travel about the same distance. Just knowing the defaults, Iceballs probably come out quicker but that seems like the main direct advantage. Luigi gets more damage off of Iceballs thanks to his combo ability but Mega Man has a solid set of aerials, too, and I could see Ice Slasher being useful for that.

i like ice slasher, and well, it's just "unrecorded" in tournament. ppl dont give it enough showcase, because there hasn't been much footage of ppl using it in high lvl competitive play

the same goes for hyperbomb.

 

[mega4000]

This discussion should really be moved to one of the board-wide custom moveset legality threads... we're not going to solve anything on the Megaman boards.

I feel like there's a very real issue with the current list of customs that we have that needs to be fixed. Either by revising our EVO inputs (not sure if possible) or by at least continuing to churn this list for later. Remember the first custom moves project would limit us even further to 6, so I don't exactly want to take this list as "standard" and pair down from there.

Real questions... do we honestly need:
- Repeated 1313 and 1311 (I personally think 1311 should stay and 1313 should be cut)
- 2 mostly redundant Shadow Blade sets (1 Rush, 1 TH)
- 4 Skull Barrier sets
- An Olimar-centric set that is just a repeat of 1322 with Crash Bomb

while completely excluding Ice Slasher and Hyper Bomb, and limiting Beat to 1 set.
I'm not even a huge fan of these yet, but I have to admit that the possibilities they all give are potentially more useful than any of the bullets listed above.

Ice Slasher is easily the move of choice against G&W, and is potentially the best move against the slower zone-controlling chars, as was illustrated in a thread by @ Locke 06 ... It at least has the potential to be a good 3rd option.

Hyper Bomb has its own setups and tricks, and honestly I don't think any of us have given it enough time to find its usefulness.

Beat is arguably our best recovery move.

Whether or not you like these moves individually does not indicate that they should never be used in any circumstance... which is what this list is doing.

whats the point of having an ice slasher set with the current rules? I don't think any g&w mainer has him as his only main. If they use g&w it will be a counter pick when they lose so you won't be able to pick ice slasher. Instead of wasting a slot in ice slasher, better have this list that are prepared for every style instead of sets that only works as counter pick.

Sure. That'll give me a chance to see if Efficient Panic is useful against Mega at all, too.

Related to the Ice Slasher discussion, I'm not sure why it's so looked down upon when Luigi's Iceballs are considered useful and the moves are fairly similar. I believe they both deal 4% and travel about the same distance. Just knowing the defaults, Iceballs probably come out quicker but that seems like the main direct advantage. Luigi gets more damage off of Iceballs thanks to his combo ability but Mega Man has a solid set of aerials, too, and I could see Ice Slasher being useful for that.

Luigi ice ball >>>>>>>>>>>> ice slasher by a mile. You can have up to 2 luigi ice balls on the field and dash along one of them to get a free grab. With ice slasher you can't do that, plus luigi ice ball doesn't have lag like ice slasher do.

 

[ChopperDave]

I get 132x, but I would like to hear when you'd run 1322 over 1312.

As odd as 1122 is, I can see its use vs Olimar. However, is it that significantly better than 1112 vs Olimar to warrant a slot? Because I can't think of other MU's where I'd run that (note: I have very little experience with tornado hold).

That's all I have on the 4 skull barrier sets.

While IS is not a great move objectively, it non-trivially strengthens Mega Man's zoning/neutral in MU's where crash bomb is not very effective. As I read the Bowser MU discussion, I realize more how useful IS is in that MU, along with other MU's I've stated before. IS vs Dedede makes it even easier, as you have another projectile to reflect gordos when lemons get too stale. Also, dedede loses the minute he gets above Mega.

I think an IS set would be more beneficial for Mega Man than the Olimar set or 1322. However, I'm not going to evo and I'll just upload my own IS set for the tournaments I do attend. So, meh.

I'll get some videos of IS soon. If @ Kofu isn't too busy this week/weekend, I may be able to get some IS vs G&W footage up.

TH vs. Oli is pretty great. Let's you shuck off any Pikmin he has attached to you and spaces him at the same time. It's also very handy for edgeguarding him given his recovery.

I'm not convinced 1122 really needs to take up a slot, though. It's fun when Crash Bomber pops on a Pikmin but does it really happen that often in a way that benefits MM? I feel like 1322 works just as well and maybe even better, since DW adds to MM's edgeguarding game. DW + TH makes for fun ledge traps.

 

[Locke 06]

TH vs. Oli is pretty great. Let's you shuck off any Pikmin he has attached to you and spaces him at the same time. It's also very handy for edgeguarding him given his recovery.

I'm not convinced 1122 really needs to take up a slot, though. It's fun when Crash Bomber pops on a Pikmin but does it really happen that often in a way that benefits MM? I feel like 1322 works just as well and maybe even better, since DW adds to MM's edgeguarding game. DW + TH makes for fun ledge traps.

I'd point you to the Light Labs video thread for a zoning battle between Mega Man and Olimar. It's a WiFi battle between me and Nom, a top 5 Michigan player. Granted, it was our first impressions of high level play of the MU... But yeah. Crash bomb is necessary, at least in the way I play the MU.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'd argue that olimar is not enough of a counter or prevalent enough to warrant taking an entire slot for his mu over one that has more potential uses... Even assuming that 1122 is the optimal loadout against him

whats the point of having an ice slasher set with the current rules? I don't think any g&w mainer has him as his only main. If they use g&w it will be a counter pick when they lose so you won't be able to pick ice slasher. Instead of wasting a slot in ice slasher, better have this list that are prepared for every style instead of sets that only works as counter pick.

1. I mean... Say you win game 1, they CP G&W and win game 2...then you're in a CP position either way for game 3, so options are useful.
2. It's not like IS is useless in all but 6 matchups... It'd still be fine, even if not optimal.
3. Many of the sets already listed are more niche than an IS set. I mean come on, we have an Olimar-specific moveset and 4 skull barrier sets. It's not like we can't make room for a set that is obviously the best against one char (who is likely more used than Oli) and arguably the best against a handful of other chars.
4. If you're going to limit the allowable movesets to only those that handle every char, I challenge you to come up with more than 4 that you'd be comfortable using in a blind pick.

 

[mega4000]

I'd argue that olimar is not enough of a counter or prevalent enough to warrant taking an entire slot for his mu over one that has more potential uses... Even assuming that 1122 is the optimal loadout against him


1. I mean... Say you win game 1, they CP G&W and win game 2...then you're in a CP position either way for game 3, so options are useful.
2. It's not like IS is useless in all but 6 matchups... It'd still be fine, even if not optimal.
3. Many of the sets already listed are more niche than an IS set. I mean come on, we have an Olimar-specific moveset and 4 skull barrier sets. It's not like we can't make room for a set that is obviously the best against one char (who is likely more used than Oli) and arguably the best against a handful of other chars.
4. If you're going to limit the allowable movesets to only those that handle every char, I challenge you to come up with more than 4 that you'd be comfortable using in a blind pick.

I know what you are triying to say, but with the current rules I don't see the point of fighting for sets that don't cover every matchup. Maybe I would fight for a beat skull barrier set because at least thats more general.

 

[Locke 06]

I know what you are triying to say, but with the current rules I don't see the point of fighting for sets that don't cover every matchup. Maybe I would fight for a beat skull barrier set because at least thats more general.

Then why is there an "olimar set?"

Also, I am pretty sure that you will pick your customs after your opponent picks their character. I have not been in a custom tournament, but that makes the most sense.

 

[mega4000]

Then why is there an "olimar set?"

Also, I am pretty sure that you will pick your customs after your opponent picks their character. I have not been in a custom tournament, but that makes the most sense.

I know that's make the most sense, but is just like law when something is not stated in paper, some idiot will take advantage and pull rules out ot their *** in order to mess with you. Picking customs in blind pick is stupid and limit the sets to only confortable sets. In only one round you will be able to choose your set properly, and that's when you loose. With that this will be the borest tournament ever, because you will never know how a character actually performs against the other because you are imposing a handicap in the blind pick selection.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Again we're discussing the rulesets... That's not important to which movesets are chosen (because there ARE CP situations where even char-specific movesets would be useful), and the rules aren't set in stone. Moreover, the Megaman board is not the place to hash out tournament rules. This exact discussion has taken place before over on the more general boards.

I am simply trying to make the case that our current sets have some missed opportunities in IS, HB, and 1 more Beat set, and a lot of redundant loadouts when you actually consider their applications.

 

[digiholic]

I think Mega Man is getting pretty severely hurt by EVO's hard deadline on move sets. It's going to be a long time before we can actually pick decent move sets due to just how varied Mega's moves are. Unfortunately, it's too late to change anything, as there wasn't enough time for anything but basic theorycrafting, but if you want to use a build, I highly encourage using it, and recording it, for future discussions.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed in lack of Hyper Bomb, because I think it has potential, but after a while of trying it, I realized I'm nowhere near good enough to vouch for it, and eagerly await someone better at the game than I to show me how it's done. I understand that there were probably a lot of people like me, who couldn't find a use for it within the time limit and opted for a more well-rounded set than something niche and potentially worthless.

I think, more than any other character, Mega Man will use the extra custom slots in tournaments using the standard CMP instead of the EVO version.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I think Mega Man is getting pretty severely hurt by EVO's hard deadline on move sets. It's going to be a long time before we can actually pick decent move sets due to just how varied Mega's moves are. Unfortunately, it's too late to change anything, as there wasn't enough time for anything but basic theorycrafting, but if you want to use a build, I highly encourage using it, and recording it, for future discussions.

Personally, I'm a bit disappointed in lack of Hyper Bomb, because I think it has potential, but after a while of trying it, I realized I'm nowhere near good enough to vouch for it, and eagerly await someone better at the game than I to show me how it's done. I understand that there were probably a lot of people like me, who couldn't find a use for it within the time limit and opted for a more well-rounded set than something niche and potentially worthless.

I think, more than any other character, Mega Man will use the extra custom slots in tournaments using the standard CMP instead of the EVO version.

how many sets do you use from the evo?

 

[digiholic]

how many sets do you use from the evo?

1311, 1112 and 1312 mostly. The only move I've been successful in the lab with is Danger Wrap. I know there's cool Tornado Hold shenanigans, but I've never quite been able to pull them off.

 

[Doval]

I'm with Fenrir VII, these sets are out of whack.

I don't see why Metal Blade is in 8 of the sets. From the distances where Shadow Blade would miss it's really easy to see Metal Blades coming and shield/roll/grab/destroy it. It also has no follow-ups. Yes, it can be thrown fast and do 10% as an item, but only after wasting time throwing one, picking it back up. That slows down your rate of spamming, limits your ability to do A moves and makes your next moves painfully obvious. Your opponent can grab it without investing any time into setting it up and then use it in exactly the same ways; better if they have tether grabs to reach with.

Contrast that with Shadow Blade which can't be grabbed, can't reliably be rolled through on the outward hit, makes you wait for the inward hit if you shield it, and combos into down tilt, dash attack, dash grab, and depending on spacing up smash or up tilt. If I had to pick one or the other without knowing what I'm up against, I'd pick Shadow Blade.

I don't get the heavy bias towards Plant Barrier either; it's slower to bring out than Leaf Shield and doesn't afford extra protection since it doesn't stop hit boxes from reaching you and the duration isn't long enough for them to get hit twice. They extend a bit further but again, that offers no protection and you'll still have to get up close and personal. More damage per petal, but you get less hits. The only pro is that it'll destroy projectiles that do 11% instead of 10%, but at that point you can make a case for Skull Barrier.

Ice Slasher is safer to use than Crash Bomb (it actually stops the opponent when it hits) and doesn't rely on the enemy's stupidity. I would hope that an Evo-level competitor won't let you capitalize on the explosion.

 

[mega4000]

I'm with Fenrir VII, these sets are out of whack.

I don't see why Metal Blade is in 8 of the sets. From the distances where Shadow Blade would miss it's really easy to see Metal Blades coming and shield/roll/grab/destroy it. It also has no follow-ups. Yes, it can be thrown fast and do 10% as an item, but only after wasting time throwing one, picking it back up.

excuse me but.... metal blade having no follow-ups? WTH?

 

[DelxDoom]

Ice Slasher is safer to use than Crash Bomb (it actually stops the opponent when it hits) and doesn't rely on the enemy's stupidity. I would hope that an Evo-level competitor won't let you capitalize on the explosion.

disagreed. ice slasher works in a smaller range than crash bomb, and has slower startup AND recovery. a competent opponent can easily roll or jump over megaman's ice slasher and punish on reaction. crash bomber shouldn't be used in this range, has some merit vs rosalina/luma, and has faster startup/recovery time, so the opponent has to react more quickly to punish.

also, crash bomb has SOME mixups when it hits. check this vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a60jMi9yfFE

 

[digiholic]

I'm with Fenrir VII, these sets are out of whack.

I don't see why Metal Blade is in 8 of the sets. From the distances where Shadow Blade would miss it's really easy to see Metal Blades coming and shield/roll/grab/destroy it. It also has no follow-ups. Yes, it can be thrown fast and do 10% as an item, but only after wasting time throwing one, picking it back up. That slows down your rate of spamming, limits your ability to do A moves and makes your next moves painfully obvious. Your opponent can grab it without investing any time into setting it up and then use it in exactly the same ways; better if they have tether grabs to reach with.

Contrast that with Shadow Blade which can't be grabbed, can't reliably be rolled through on the outward hit, makes you wait for the inward hit if you shield it, and combos into down tilt, dash attack, dash grab, and depending on spacing up smash or up tilt. If I had to pick one or the other without knowing what I'm up against, I'd pick Shadow Blade.

I don't get the heavy bias towards Plant Barrier either; it's slower to bring out than Leaf Shield and doesn't afford extra protection since it doesn't stop hit boxes from reaching you and the duration isn't long enough for them to get hit twice. They extend a bit further but again, that offers no protection and you'll still have to get up close and personal. More damage per petal, but you get less hits. The only pro is that it'll destroy projectiles that do 11% instead of 10%, but at that point you can make a case for Skull Barrier.

Ice Slasher is safer to use than Crash Bomb (it actually stops the opponent when it hits) and doesn't rely on the enemy's stupidity. I would hope that an Evo-level competitor won't let you capitalize on the explosion.

Metal Blade has some really solid techs. You can't combo Shadow Blade into utilt, there's too much lag. There's amazing combo potential off of a Z-dropped blade, if they shield it close up, you're guaranteed a grab. A thrown blade is also Mega Man's most reliable way of getting the opponent into a tumble state, which is a guaranteed lemonlock utilt if they don't tech the ground. You can do your pellets and any aerial with a Metal Blade by crouching and using the c-stick on the ground, or z-dropping right before using the aerial.

Plant Barrier has it's uses, the large radius means you can throw it on and grab a ledge, and the opponent will get hit by the shield without snapping to the ledge, with Leaf Shield, on some stages, the ledge snap radius was big enough that they could trump you through your shield. Plant Barrier is also better for setting up grabs, and getting space from rushdown characters, since it outspaces most aerials from Diddy and Sonic, while Leaf Shield often just causes a hit trade.

Crash Bomb isn't meant to actually explode on anyone, but if you stick a bomb, you force your opponent into a position where they have to deal with it. It's a read-enabler, and with Mega Man, he pretty much only gets kills on competent players with reads. Your opponent can easily shield it, or roll through it, or pass it to you, but these options all have counterplay that you can capitalize on. Also, Mega Man has some pretty wicked Crash Bomb into throw combos, and if you find a compulsive shielder, a charged Fsmash plus crash bomb will shield break anyone unless the manage to powershield one of the explosion hits. Not to mention the fact that you can stick it on a respawning opponent when they'd otherwise be untouchable.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think Metal blade is by far the most developed and most useful neutral B we have. But that does not imply that the other 2 moves have no potential.

Same thing with all the side B's. I think they all have amazing potential for different reasons... and I think all 3 are the best choice in several matchups. to completely exclude IS is a crime imo.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I think Metal blade is by far the most developed and most useful neutral B we have. But that does not imply that the other 2 moves have no potential.

Same thing with all the side B's. I think they all have amazing potential for different reasons... and I think all 3 are the best choice in several matchups. to completely exclude IS is a crime imo.

as of now, the only thing that's keeping the other specials from being utilized to their potential is their startup-end lag of the move. i really hope nintendo looks into this

 

[Doval]

excuse me but.... metal blade having no follow-ups? WTH

Not from the range where Shadow Blade isn't relevant.

You can't combo Shadow Blade into utilt, there's too much lag.

You can definitely do it, they just have to be close after the returning hit lands. Bear in mind that rage does increase Shadow Blade's knockback, so in a real match you're going to see it combo into itself more reliably and pull harder towards you than in training mode. For it to combo into itself it has to hit around halfway, but short hopping forward (or B-reversing it) as you throw it puts you closer to the sweet spot since you'll continue to move forward after it's been released. Mega Upper is a fast move, it's all a matter of being in range.

Crash Bomb isn't meant to actually explode on anyone, but if you stick a bomb, you force your opponent into a position where they have to deal with it.

Obviously, but any time you land a Crash Bomb you very well may have landed an Ice Slasher safely as well, and that's just as much of a read enabler. Now they're in the air and need to get down safely, which is not easy against Mega Man. Will you use an aerial or bait an air dodge and punish? As I said, Ice Slasher actually stops people, so it's usable in situations where Crash Bomb would land but not stop them from hitting you.

Also, Mega Man has some pretty wicked Crash Bomb into throw combos, and if you find a compulsive shielder, a charged Fsmash plus crash bomb will shield break anyone unless the manage to powershield one of the explosion hits.

Again, we're talking about EVO here. You should assume your opponent knows it's not going to explode for another 3 seconds. A smart opponent will stay away until the very last moment, then roll. If he sees you charge a shot, he'll just jump and air dodge instead. the follow-ups just won't materialize with regularity. You invest effort into landing a hit with a relatively laggy attack for an uncertain future payoff a pro player can avoid. You have to outsmart your opponent twice to get any payoff.

Plant Barrier is also better for setting up grabs, and getting space from rushdown characters, since it outspaces most aerials from Diddy and Sonic, while Leaf Shield often just causes a hit trade.

The slow start time is a liability against rushdown characters. You want the hitboxes up ASAP. Seems like a bad trade to me since the extra reach isn't consistent. As for trumping, it makes more sense to let them grab the edge first; there's nothing they can do to escape the barrier then.

To be clear, I can see why some people like it, but it's not strictly superior than LS so why is it on practically all the non-Skull Barrier sets?

 

[digiholic]

Obviously, but any time you land a Crash Bomb you very well may have landed an Ice Slasher safely as well, and that's just as much of a read enabler since they now they're in the air and need to get down safely, which is not easy against Mega Man. Will you use an aerial or bait an air dodge and punish? And, as I said, Ice Slasher actually stops people, so it's usable in situations where Crash Bomb would land but not stop them from hitting you.

Ice Slasher has almost twice the startup of Crash Bomb. It's not safe to say that if you land a Crash Bomber, you could have landed Ice Slasher. Ice Slasher also isn't a read enabler, any more than any move with knockback. The thing about CB is that when you stick it, the opponent is forced to play your game. The bomb will detonate in 3 seconds, so they have to pick something and commit to it to avoid damage and a follow up. Since there's a limited number of options your opponent can choose and a very small window to choose them in, it's easy to read what your opponent will do. Ice Slasher enables follow-ups, which is different. Still really good, but different. Your opponent is in the air, but they still have access to all of their usual air options, so it doesn't put the opponent on the spot. The thing about Crash Bomb is that it forces people out of their comfort zones and into playing your game, not theirs. Personally, I think all three of Mega Man's side specials have their uses, Ice Slasher skirts the line between Crash Bomb's versatility and Danger Wrap's lethality, but tends to get ignored over favoring one of the two extremes.

Again, we're talking about EVO here. You should assume your opponent knows it's not going to explode for another 3 seconds. A smart opponent will stay away until the very last moment, then roll. If he sees you charge a shot, he'll just jump and air dodge instead. the follow-ups just won't materialize with regularity. You invest effort into landing a hit with a relatively laggy attack for an uncertain future payoff a pro player can avoid.The slow start time is a liability against rushdown characters. You want the hitboxes up ASAP.

The threat of power is also power. That's a mantra to live by as a Mega Man player. Sure, they're not going to just sit there and eat the shot, but since both of you know that's an option, you can be pretty sure that they're not going to shield it out of fear. If they wait until the last second and roll, that's the time to do a sliding usmash, a dash-grab, or even a dsmash if you think they're going to roll into you.

As for trumping, it makes more sense to let them grab the edge first; there's nothing they can do to escape the barrier then.

To be clear, I can see why some people like it, but it's not strictly superior than LS so why is it on practically all the non-Skull Barrier sets?

If they grab first, they have invincibility all the way through getup, and if you go for a trump, you can't do a bair punish with the shield on. Better to not let them grab the ledge at all for a potential gimp.

As for why it's on there more, it's just that it's easier to use Plant Barrier's full potential than Leaf Shield's, and it's less likely to blow up in your face, so people who are uncertain of the opponent are more likely to use it.

I just want to re-iterate, though, that I think all of Mega Man's moves are great, and that I've said before that we're getting gimped pretty hard by the limited move pool, although I think we've done good to cover the most common bases with the time we had available.

 

[Doval]

Ice Slasher enables follow-ups, which is different. Still really good, but different. Your opponent is in the air, but they still have access to all of their usual air options, so it doesn't put the opponent on the spot.

I don't see the difference; having all the usual air options is still limiting. There's nothing they can do to not fall, air dodges are way more punishable than rolls and if there's a platform under them there's nothing they can do about your Air Shooter spam. Fair point on the startup lag though.

If they wait until the last second and roll, that's the time to do a sliding usmash, a dash-grab, or even a dsmash if you think they're going to roll into you.

If they roll backwards the explosion's now between you and them, so you've got nothing except ranged attacks. None of them are fast enough to catch a roll; if you commit to one early, they jump instead.

If they grab first, they have invincibility all the way through getup, and if you go for a trump, you can't do a bair punish with the shield on. Better to not let them grab the ledge at all for a potential gimp.

If you trump, the barrier hits and causes them to fall straght down for a footstool and d-air. If you don't, you can do the exact same getup action to follow them with the barrier.

 

[Locke 06]

A note: I don't think shadow blade, metal blade, or hyper bomb are affected by rage in the same way they are not affected by stale moves.

IS and CB are my preferred side-B's more than DW due to playstyle, and I'm trying out plant barrier more, but leaf shield is still my preferred option. I'd type up more, but mobile.