Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[Peabnut Bubber]

And when would you take skull barrier and tornado hold? That seems like an odd combination to me.

I think this set is a bit weird too. This set is trying to fight two different characters at the same time.

Out of these 6 13XX's, I would make the following changes:
1311
1312
13231
1322
1333
1332

I used to be against 1332, but it has merit against projectile users with dangerously horizontal smashes. Olimar, Link, Rob, and Duck Hunt come to mind.

with 5 sets left, Ice Slasher likely should only have 1 set due to its unpopularity. 1213 seems the most optimal, as characters who you want to take Ice Slasher against usually have hard hitting/good range aerials that can edge guard.

Which characters would you use IS against? I've checked your thread for reference, but would like to know if you've updated that list.

 

[Locke 06]

I think this set is a bit weird too. This set is trying to fight two different characters at the same time.

I used to be against 1332, but it has merit against projectile users with dangerously horizontal smashes. Olimar, Link, Rob, and Duck Hunt come to mind.

Which characters would you use IS against? I've checked your thread for reference, but would like to know if you've updated that list.

Whoops, I meant to cross off 1322. Tornado Hold & Skull Barrier is the one I didn't think worked well.

Also, that means the other crossed off one was supposed to be Beat & Plant Barrier. (Fixed)

Edit: I still don't think Beat is a good choice. In those projectile MU's (which is 4/51 and only Olimar & ROB are somewhat common characters), 3/4 of those characters have spikes along with edge guarding tools. If you take Beat, I wouldn't be surprised if a Link takes meteor bombs (but he has his own DAir and projectiles to pester your recovery). Olimar can go very very deep with his recovery, and ROB has his projectiles & spike. I'd go 1112 instead of 1132.

Hmm... maybe 1132 isn't as useful as I thought. I have been using it against Pacman a lot lately, but I don't know where else I'd use it. I'd definitely use it for Toon Link. Maybe Peach.

As for IS:

/ were on my list before. I don't think IS is very good against Sheik and would rather take CB/DW depending on how the Sheik plays (if she's willing to needle camp... I'm gonna need that CB).

for sure. He basically loses a stock once you get him in the air. depends. He's got a mediocre shield size in relation to his hurtbox, so I could see arguments for CB, but Charizard loves to corner people.

is someone I've been experimenting with. He fits the archetype of what IS does well against (susceptible to juggles, long ranged melee pressure), but CB has seemed to work better in my experience to keep quick pressure, especially against his mobility arts.

I have absolutely no experience against , but I imagine he'd be there too due to Marth-like attributes. is the last one I'd add with the disclaimer that Wario is just a weird matchup that I prefer to have IS due to instant reward on hit.

Ones I've considered: . Falcon & Brawler, I think, are just too fast for IS. Falco I have limited experience with, but his reflector can make IS more of a liability. Samus doesn't want to be above us, but shield poking her tall frame is too fun for me to give up CB.

If anyone else has others they want to add, or thoughts on those, feel free. I'll update the IS post later to reflect my experience with the move.

 

[mega4000]

Whoops, I meant to cross off 1322. Tornado Hold & Skull Barrier is the one I didn't think worked well.

Also, that means the other crossed off one was supposed to be Beat & Plant Barrier. (Fixed)

Edit: I still don't think Beat is a good choice. In those projectile MU's (which is 4/51 and only Olimar & ROB are somewhat common characters), 3/4 of those characters have spikes along with edge guarding tools. If you take Beat, I wouldn't be surprised if a Link takes meteor bombs (but he has his own DAir and projectiles to pester your recovery). Olimar can go very very deep with his recovery, and ROB has his projectiles & spike. I'd go 1112 instead of 1132.

Hmm... maybe 1132 isn't as useful as I thought. I have been using it against Pacman a lot lately, but I don't know where else I'd use it. I'd definitely use it for Toon Link. Maybe Peach.

As for IS:

/ were on my list before. I don't think IS is very good against Sheik and would rather take CB/DW depending on how the Sheik plays (if she's willing to needle camp... I'm gonna need that CB).

for sure. He basically loses a stock once you get him in the air. depends. He's got a mediocre shield size in relation to his hurtbox, so I could see arguments for CB, but Charizard loves to corner people.

is someone I've been experimenting with. He fits the archetype of what IS does well against (susceptible to juggles, long ranged melee pressure), but CB has seemed to work better in my experience to keep quick pressure, especially against his mobility arts.

I have absolutely no experience against , but I imagine he'd be there too due to Marth-like attributes. is the last one I'd add with the disclaimer that Wario is just a weird matchup that I prefer to have IS due to instant reward on hit.

Ones I've considered: . Falcon & Brawler, I think, are just too fast for IS. Falco I have limited experience with, but his reflector can make IS more of a liability. Samus doesn't want to be above us, but shield poking her tall frame is too fun for me to give up CB.

If anyone else has others they want to add, or thoughts on those, feel free. I'll update the IS post later to reflect my experience with the move.

it's time to decides on sets. I think everyone has make their mind on what they want, so pls post your ten sets because you made some mistakes in the other post and its a little bit confusing. we already have the penaut butter sets, and I'm gonna decide mine based on yours.

 

[chrisall76]

Not a Megaman main, but I'm wondering why no sets carry netrual 3 (shadow blade)? Definitely seems to get megaman alot of setups and kills. 2nd upB seems to get setups too, but I dunno about it. l'd recommend:
-331x
-332x
Not sure about the last one, as 1/3 or 2 depend on matchup I would say.
Video showing potential:

 

[Locke 06]

I fully support the following:
MB/DW sets: 131(1/3), 1312, 1323, 133(1/3)
IS: 1213
CB: 1112 (& default)

Leaving 4 sets.

1332 and 1322 has been suggested, but I have reservations about TH (and to a lesser extent Beat) + skull barrier due to MU's where you'd use skull barrier.
HB/SB - These seem too experimental, but I'm not going to even pretend to know what sets to use due to lack of exposure.
1132, under more thought, seems to have a very small niche that 1112 should really be enough for.
1123, 113(1/3) are solid sets that I could see getting use. They build off of the default and change the up-B (and changes LS to PB for TH synergy).

Everyone should understand how 1123 and 113(1/3) work based on the discussion in this thread. Whether those sets are more important than HB/SB sets or 1332 is something I do not want to even touch due to my lack of experience with them.

(From my perspective, I have no hesitation placing 1123 and 1131 as 2/4 sets)

 

[DunnoBro]

The sets ninjalink and other other competitive megaman players use seem to be 3323 and 1323 for matchups without enemy projectiles And 3322 1322 for those with.

I believe these sets should make it in above all others. Actual tourney-attending players already demonstrated success using those sets, I also personally believe these to be his most generally superior sets.

 

[Jehtt]

I'd really hate if 1311 didn't make it in. It's a simple change but a very good set.

 

[Anomilus]

Still not sold on the heavy advocating of Danger Wrap without providing an opportunity to use something else. Finally got to do some more testing, and I'm more convinced DW doesn't play together as well with Mega Man's neutrals.

Somebody in the Character Competitive Impressions thread called Mega Man an anti-air menace, which definitely makes sense. And that's not taking customs into effect. Danger Wrap is one more addition to his anti-air tool set. A great addition mind you, but another one. The way I see it, DW should be there for those who want the additional KO power in the form of a 2nd anti-air projectile, but I really don't think it HAS to be a centerpiece to practically every set.

Gotta wonder if DW is getting so much support because it's still a fairly new experience, people try it out and get the expected initial success, and now a lot people don't wanna consider anything else. It's a good move. It's not Metal Blades good though. Its effect is more pronounced than Crash Bombs, but it certainly shouldn't totally replace it. Especially when the two moves act completely differently.

13xx sets are one thing as Metal Blade is versatile enough to work around Danger Wrap's unique trajectory. 33xx sets are a different matter. At least with 31xx more lateral space is covered, and both projectiles can work in tandem to induce pressure. 33xx has the two projectiles vying for usage. And as mentioned, Mega Man isn't exactly lacking on anti-air options.

 

[---]

I'd really hate if 1311 didn't make it in. It's a simple change but a very good set.

That's pretty much the only guaranteed set at the moment given that everyone and their mom has voted for it consistently. Though the Leaf/Plant may be interchangeable.

 

[Anomilus]

BTW, I was right about xx33. Activate in after getting the opponent off the ledge, then just leap in and drag the opponent down while they're trying to recover, then use Beat when done and return to the ledge. Even better, it works well to train the opponent into recovering high, in which you then use Danger Wrap to cover that space. Now none of their recovery routes are safe. Keep in mind though it still depends on the opponent. If they're recovery is really good or they can put out a safe enough hitbox, this tactic probably won't be as effective.

So yeah, x333 can be a thing I suppose, though I doubt people wanna consider something new at this point.

============================================= 3/15 7:27 EST ====================================


Okee guys, we got little more than a day left to finalize something.

a.) 1311 -- Here to stay
b.) 1312 -- SkB preference
c.) 1321 -- TH shenanigans
d.) 1322 -- TH w/t SkB preference
e.) 1331 -- Beat preference
f.) 1112 -- Basic w/t SkB preference
g.) 1113 -- Basic w/t PB preference (not recommended IMO)
h.) 3323 -- Shadow Blade set (used by Ninjalink)
i. ) 3322 -- SB w/t SkB preference
j. ) 3122 -- SB w/t Crash Bomb set

Not necessarily my whole recommendations. Honestly I've not paid as much attention to the Metal Blade discussion. I've suggested six MB sets, but I'm being generous here and giving seven.

This list hinges on the following:

> People want 13xx, of course
> Skull Barrier alternatives is practically a thing now and ensures various anti-projectile coverage
> I feel MB + LF is the optimal combination
> It's good to have a few minor-changed sets, 1311 and 1112 being there. I also put in 1113, but I'd drop it in a heart beat
> I still think 33xx puts too much pressure on Mega Man to close the gap, but there it is
> I believe 3122 relieves some of that pressure
> Hyper Bomb & Ice Slasher need more time. Their applications have been noted, but for another time.

I would promote 31xx a bit harder, but whateves. Otherwise I'd even slip in a 3x33 set. I would also drop 1133 in favor of 1x33. If a MB user needs Plant Barrier, I'd also give him Beat for the impressive gimping capability.

Again though not necessarily my final suggestion. Just want to make a rough draft of my own list, see a few more views of other people, and then piece together something final.

 

[mega4000]

BTW, I was right about xx33. Activate in after getting the opponent off the ledge, then just leap in and drag the opponent down while they're trying to recover, then use Beat when done and return to the ledge. Even better, it works well to train the opponent into recovering high, in which you then use Danger Wrap to cover that space. Now none of their recovery routes are safe. Keep in mind though it still depends on the opponent. If they're recovery is really good or they can put out a safe enough hitbox, this tactic probably won't be as effective.

So yeah, x333 can be a thing I suppose, though I doubt people wanna consider something new at this point.

============================================= 3/15 7:27 EST ====================================


Okee guys, we got little more than a day left to finalize something.

a.) 1311 -- Here to stay
b.) 1312 -- SkB preference
c.) 1321 -- TH shenanigans
d.) 1322 -- TH w/t SkB preference
e.) 1331 -- Beat preference
f.) 1112 -- Basic w/t SkB preference
g.) 1113 -- Basic w/t PB preference (not recommended IMO)
h.) 3323 -- Shadow Blade set (used by Ninjalink)
i. ) 3322 -- SB w/t SkB preference
j. ) 3122 -- SB w/t Crash Bomb set

Not necessarily my whole recommendations. Honestly I've not paid as much attention to the Metal Blade discussion. I've suggested six MB sets, but I'm being generous here and giving seven.

This list hinges on the following:

> People want 13xx, of course
> Skull Barrier alternatives is practically a thing now and ensures various anti-projectile coverage
> I feel MB + LF is the optimal combination
> It's good to have a few minor-changed sets, 1311 and 1112 being there. I also put in 1113, but I'd drop it in a heart beat
> I still think 33xx puts too much pressure on Mega Man to close the gap, but there it is
> I believe 3122 relieves some of that pressure
> Hyper Bomb & Ice Slasher need more time. Their applications have been noted, but for another time.

I would promote 31xx a bit harder, but whateves. Otherwise I'd even slip in a 3x33 set. I would also drop 1133 in favor of 1x33. If a MB user needs Plant Barrier, I'd also give him Beat for the impressive gimping capability.

Again though not necessarily my final suggestion. Just want to make a rough draft of my own list, see a few more views of other people, and then piece together something final.

so one day.. huh? who is the one in charge to give the sets? he should have the list already, I really wanna see it. Also, what's the point of tornado hold in the 3122? there is no danger wrap so woudn't be better to have and up b that actually has sinergy with crash bomb? skull barrier has sinergy with crash bomb, and shadow blade is there in case your opponent decides to rush you or hold pressure. whats better for crash bomb? rush or beat? I really think @ Locke 06 should look onto this, because crash bomb + skull barrier + shadow blade is really something that can match alot of things.

 

[Anomilus]

so one day.. huh? who is the one in charge to give the sets? he should have the list already, I really wanna see it. Also, what's the point of tornado hold in the 3122? there is no danger wrap so woudn't be better to have and up b that actually has sinergy with crash bomb? skull barrier has sinergy with crash bomb, and shadow blade is there in case your opponent decides to rush you or hold pressure. whats better for crash bomb? rush or beat? I really think @ Locke 06 should look onto this, because crash bomb + skull barrier + shadow blade is really something that can match alot of things.

Just keep in mind I like Tornado Hold for its stage control and ledgeguard tactics. Otherwise I'd go with CB + RC if one really wanted to ditch TH. Rush Coil at the least would quickly space Mega Man away from the opponent if they were stuck with Crash Bomb. Then you might activate Skull Barrier on the way down. Honestly it's not much, but it's something. Beat is purely about recovery and has little use on stage due to the start-up and putting Mega Man awfully high in the air.

 

[mega4000]

Just keep in mind I like Tornado Hold for its stage control and ledgeguard tactics. Otherwise I'd go with CB + RC if one really wanted to ditch TH. Rush Coil at the least would quickly space Mega Man away from the opponent if they were stuck with Crash Bomb. Then you might activate Skull Barrier on the way down. Honestly it's not much, but it's something. Beat is purely about recovery and has little use on stage due to the start-up and putting Mega Man awfully high in the air.

i think tornado hold shoudn't go without danger wrap. maybe that set would benefit more with rush in order to have 3112 for more crash bomb sinergy. I don't play that set, but I'm telling you that in order to make more test to find the real opimal combination.

 

[Anomilus]

Well thing is, yes you can use RC to escape any tricky Crash Bomb issue, but you can do the same with Tornado Hold while still keeping a stronger offensive presence (let's not undermine TH's individual effectiveness). Sure TH+DW is a good combination, but I already suggested several x32x sets. If you can suggest something else that CB + RC does that CB + TH doesn't, that's different. Otherwise this sounds like more Danger Wrap favoritism than anything.

For now, the only thing picking TH over RC denies is a slightly better recovery and a more effective escape option.

 

[Locke 06]

So, this may be late, but I think Shadow Blade is winning over people due to unfamiliarity with the moves' weaknesses. At the same time, I don't know enough about Shadow Blade to feel completely confident in my analysis of the move.

It's unsafe on hit if you're too close, and doesn't combo into itself reliably unless they're so far away that you're not going to get a follow up. From what I remember when I tested the move out early in the game's life is that people can jump>airdodge out after the 1st hit or the 2nd hit if they're far enough away to avoid follow ups.

Lack of range and the fact that it disappears on contact with the ground limits its aerial usage (especially diagonal down) and the lower hitstun & increased end lag makes it hard to for a follow up off of the 1st hit.

That said, as knockback increases with %, it is likely Shadow Blade makes its money at kill %'s. The amount of knowledge on Shadow Blade on SWF is about the same as there is on Hyper Bomb if not less due to the recent Hyper Bomb video.

 

[mega4000]

So, this may be late, but I think Shadow Blade is winning over people due to unfamiliarity with the moves' weaknesses. At the same time, I don't know enough about Shadow Blade to feel completely confident in my analysis of the move.

It's unsafe on hit if you're too close, and doesn't combo into itself reliably unless they're so far away that you're not going to get a follow up. From what I remember when I tested the move out early in the game's life is that people can jump>airdodge out after the 1st hit or the 2nd hit if they're far enough away to avoid follow ups.

Lack of range and the fact that it disappears on contact with the ground limits its aerial usage (especially diagonal down) and the lower hitstun & increased end lag makes it hard to for a follow up off of the 1st hit.

That said, as knockback increases with %, it is likely Shadow Blade makes its money at kill %'s. The amount of knowledge on Shadow Blade on SWF is about the same as there is on Hyper Bomb if not less due to the recent Hyper Bomb video.

what do you think about shadow blade combined with crash bomb? i mean, people get crazy when a crash bomb is attached to them, and shadow blade is clearly intended to going for a grab. Also, you were correct, crash bomb + skull barrier have really good sinergy.

 

[Locke 06]

As far as sYnergy goes, I don't think shadow blade goes as well with crash bomb as metal blade does. One of Shadow Blades' main draws is that your opponent cannot use it against you and take away that option. Crash bomb can be important in that sense. Metal blade also does more shield damage, along with being able to JCT or z-drop into moves that further pressure the shield, which is a major part of crash bomb. Crash Bomb helps give Mega Man a mid-long distance option that Shadow Blade does not, so you could say it patches a hole there. Again, I don't know much about shadow blade.

Moves don't have to synergize though. Like Anomilus said, moves are good in their own right. Tornado Hold doesn't need to have Danger Wrap to be good, just as crash bomb doesn't need metal blade to be good. "Optimizing" sets is tough because of the moves being so different and playstyles being different.

 

[---]

BTW, I was right about xx33. Activate in after getting the opponent off the ledge, then just leap in and drag the opponent down while they're trying to recover, then use Beat when done and return to the ledge. Even better, it works well to train the opponent into recovering high, in which you then use Danger Wrap to cover that space. Now none of their recovery routes are safe. Keep in mind though it still depends on the opponent. If they're recovery is really good or they can put out a safe enough hitbox, this tactic probably won't be as effective.

So yeah, x333 can be a thing I suppose, though I doubt people wanna consider something new at this point.

============================================= 3/15 7:27 EST ====================================


Okee guys, we got little more than a day left to finalize something.

a.) 1311 -- Here to stay
b.) 1312 -- SkB preference
c.) 1321 -- TH shenanigans
d.) 1322 -- TH w/t SkB preference
e.) 1331 -- Beat preference
f.) 1112 -- Basic w/t SkB preference
g.) 1113 -- Basic w/t PB preference (not recommended IMO)
h.) 3323 -- Shadow Blade set (used by Ninjalink)
i. ) 3322 -- SB w/t SkB preference
j. ) 3122 -- SB w/t Crash Bomb set

Not necessarily my whole recommendations. Honestly I've not paid as much attention to the Metal Blade discussion. I've suggested six MB sets, but I'm being generous here and giving seven.

This list hinges on the following:

> People want 13xx, of course
> Skull Barrier alternatives is practically a thing now and ensures various anti-projectile coverage
> I feel MB + LF is the optimal combination
> It's good to have a few minor-changed sets, 1311 and 1112 being there. I also put in 1113, but I'd drop it in a heart beat
> I still think 33xx puts too much pressure on Mega Man to close the gap, but there it is
> I believe 3122 relieves some of that pressure
> Hyper Bomb & Ice Slasher need more time. Their applications have been noted, but for another time.

I would promote 31xx a bit harder, but whateves. Otherwise I'd even slip in a 3x33 set. I would also drop 1133 in favor of 1x33. If a MB user needs Plant Barrier, I'd also give him Beat for the impressive gimping capability.

Again though not necessarily my final suggestion. Just want to make a rough draft of my own list, see a few more views of other people, and then piece together something final.

Pretty sure early on in the thread, many people got on the 1333 bandwagon thanks to Overswarm, so I wouldn't consider it new stuff. IMO add it over 1331.

Would change 1113 into 1313. The DW variants all seem like givens at this point based on the poll above, especially since you seem eager to drop the former.

TH should get two sets 132X. Though I'm not sure if 1321 would be preferred over 1323 based on DunnoBro's post and the shield poll.

There's too many Shadow Blade sets, not that I can really argue against removing any of them. IDK drop two and have it be either Ninjalink's set or go by whatever poll/last minute thing? Either way we get a lot of research opportunities.

a.) 1311
b.) 1312
c.) 1322
d.) 1323
e.) 1333
f.) 1112
g.) 1313
h.) Shadow Blade Set (NinjaLink or Poll)
i. ) Extra (1321, 1332, Hyper Bomb, Ice Slasher, Shadow Blade)
j. ) Extra

 

[Anomilus]

I'm vehemently against overcentralizing on Metal Blade, and 33xx alone isn't enough coverage. I can accept having just two SB sets as long as one includes a 31xx set for those who would still desire Shadow Blade but don't want to completely sacrifice the long range.


Whatever though, it's the 17th, we gotta try and turn in something at this point. I'm not comfortable with Hyper Bomb or Ice Slasher at this time, so I'm not vouching for those at all personally. If others disagree though then by all means make a final suggestion. Perhaps we'll want one just in case HB or IS suddenly become desired between now and EVO.

So I saw a Shulk list broken up into "Critical", "Preferential", "Niche", and "Optional'. It's a good approach, so I'm doing just that.

~ Critical ~
1311
1312
1322
1323
~ Preferential ~
1112
1333
~ Niche ~
3323
3322
~ Optional ~
3122
????

Not my final preference or suggestion, but it'll have to do. I'm leaving the last Optional Set to whatever. If there's another Metal Blade set I missed, feel free to fill it in. Also feel free to adjust the orders between "Critical" and "Preferential".

 

[Galaxian]

Does nobody think Hyper Bomb is good or is that just me?

Metal Blade is still very good, don't get me wrong, but it's a very..unique option. Still catchable, does good damage, is slow, yes, but still kind of fun to use. It's a nice option.

I usually run 1332 or 3332 but I've been meaning to experiment with others. How are Mega's other customs?

 

[Anomilus]

@ Galaxian
Hyper Bomb isn't bad, just very different from the other neutrals.
Metal Blades has all sorts of strategies surrounding it, making it the premier neutral.
Shadow Blade is a pretty simple projectile, sacrificing range and options for more direct setups, though it doesn't consistently hold down the opponent.

Danger Wrap is the premier Side B, giving Mega Man another anti-air and KO option. It's a bit slow though.
Ice Slasher is a bit odd. Slower and not as effective until later percentage, but it apparently can give rushdown characters trouble.

Tornado Hold is a solid offensive Up B move, giving Mega Man additional stage control in exchange for a worse recovery
Beat lets Mega Man recover from waaay below the stage. It's a bit less versatile than Rush Coil. Works well with Plant Barrier.

Skull Barrier is basically a reflector option which Mega Man really appreiciates. It even has a little bit of offensive application
Plant Barrier trades Leaf Shield's versatility for a more insistent offense. Considered more effective for off-stage gimping (especially with Beat).

 

[mega4000]

@ Galaxian
Hyper Bomb isn't bad, just very different from the other neutrals.
Metal Blades has all sorts of strategies surrounding it, making it the premier neutral.
Shadow Blade is a pretty simple projectile, sacrificing range and options for more direct setups, though it doesn't consistently hold down the opponent.

Danger Wrap is the premier Side B, giving Mega Man another anti-air and KO option. It's a bit slow though.
Ice Slasher is a bit odd. Slower and not as effective until later percentage, but it apparently can give rushdown characters trouble.

Tornado Hold is a solid offensive Up B move, giving Mega Man additional stage control in exchange for a worse recovery
Beat lets Mega Man recover from waaay below the stage. It's a bit less versatile than Rush Coil. Works well with Plant Barrier.

Skull Barrier is basically a reflector option which Mega Man really appreiciates. It even has a little bit of offensive application
Plant Barrier trades Leaf Shield's versatility for a more insistent offense. Considered more effective for off-stage gimping (especially with Beat).

Can you explain to me how the 1333 combo works? I really want to understand how to use plant barrier + beat and danger wrap + beat.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I'm vehemently against overcentralizing on Metal Blade, and 33xx alone isn't enough coverage. I can accept having just two SB sets as long as one includes a 31xx set for those who would still desire Shadow Blade but don't want to completely sacrifice the long range.


Whatever though, it's the 17th, we gotta try and turn in something at this point. I'm not comfortable with Hyper Bomb or Ice Slasher at this time, so I'm not vouching for those at all personally. If others disagree though then by all means make a final suggestion. Perhaps we'll want one just in case HB or IS suddenly become desired between now and EVO.

So I saw a Shulk list broken up into "Critical", "Preferential", "Niche", and "Optional'. It's a good approach, so I'm doing just that.

~ Critical ~
1311
1312
1322
1323
~ Preferential ~
1112
1333
~ Niche ~
3323
3322
~ Optional ~
3122
????

Not my final preference or suggestion, but it'll have to do. I'm leaving the last Optional Set to whatever. If there's another Metal Blade set I missed, feel free to fill it in. Also feel free to adjust the orders between "Critical" and "Preferential".

welps, im in agreement that hyper bomb and ice slasher are experimental specials for now. until someone takes them to tournament and does good with them, it should just be considered as having potential. and maybe give up its slot to others.

 

[Locke 06]

I have a problem saying Ice Slasher is experimental. It's an incredibly straight forward move, and I don't think it has much more potential outside of what we know, more matchup knowledge, and exploring its effects against super armor. Compare it to Hyper Bomb which has many applications and different things you can do with it, but has not been explored.

Also, "effective until later %'s" is kind of a weird thing to say. Ice Slasher starts freezing around 30%, which is more around early-mid %'s than late. The freeze time increases with %, but it's still effective with low freeze times.

AA & his team are the ones who will decide what sets to make up the evo set. If we agreed on a set list, then we could submit it, but it's quite obvious that there are disagreements on quite a few sets.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I have a problem saying Ice Slasher is experimental. It's an incredibly straight forward move, and I don't think it has much more potential outside of what we know, more matchup knowledge, and exploring its effects against super armor. Compare it to Hyper Bomb which has many applications and different things you can do with it, but has not been explored.

Also, "effective until later %'s" is kind of a weird thing to say. Ice Slasher starts freezing around 30%, which is more around early-mid %'s than late. The freeze time increases with %, but it's still effective with low freeze times.

AA & his team are the ones who will decide what sets to make up the evo set. If we agreed on a set list, then we could submit it, but it's quite obvious that there are disagreements on quite a few sets.

the straightforwardness of ice slasher about its execution is fine. what i'm talking about more is the matchup knowledge as you pointed out, and how ice slasher is executed. I'm using ice slasher and metal blade in a set, but i find myself using ice slasher less than metal blade due to ice slasher having a bit of start up lag. and that ice slasher can be power shielded in high competitive play alot. im curious at questions like should i throw it after i diagnoal metal blade? should i throw it out as hit box when my opp is trying to recover from stage? it's the how i can use ice slasher in a mix up? why is ice slasher better to use in this situation than the other b specials?

yeh hyper bomb has not been explored. when i use it, i feel its most effective applcation is when im at medium range from my opponent. it gives alot of intersting options and ways to go in, but atm, there's only been ENKER who's put up a video about a few number of options hyper bomb brings to the table. hyper bomb is good, but i just havent seen anyone use hyper bomb in tourny. im not saying its bad, but i want to see someone do good with it in tourny and showcase us a set that's viable. tbh, i feel like hyperbomb + danger wrap has had the best synergy of the other specials i experimented with.

yep, i agree about the percentages of ice slasher you're talking about.

wells, i think AA and his team should narrow sets by wat moves have better synergy with the other. like i saw mega4000 post in another thread about this, and i agree. we really should implement this. there's alot of voices here with different opinons of XXXX set. but if we narrow wat set works best in this XX, it'll be far easier to pick what the remaining XX works best.

 

[cot(θ)]

Still not sold on the heavy advocating of Danger Wrap without providing an opportunity to use something else. Finally got to do some more testing, and I'm more convinced DW doesn't play together as well with Mega Man's neutrals.

Danger Wrap is for so much more than juggling. It helps his neutral game, advantage, and disadvantage much more than Crash Bomber in almost every matchup. I do feel that we need a 1112 set, as Link is one of the characters against whom CB is more useful than DW, but DW is really, really good.

In neutral, DW covers one of Megaman's biggest weak points - above and diagonal to him. Proper diagonally thrown metal blades are good for covering this, but of course, they're weaker than DW, and the trajectory isn't as good - DW's parabolic trajectory covers more approach options in general. It's great for shutting down approaches from Jigglypuff, or on a Bouncing Fish read from Sheik.

In the advantaged state, whether juggling or edgeguarding, DW is an incredible tool. You can cover more aerial space faster with a DW and an Air Shooter than with two Air Shooters. The ability to cover space to the side of you instead of straight upwards is an incredible tool for setting up landing traps, which Mega Man feasts on. It's also a very potent edgeguarding tool - I play against a very skilled Lucina player, and I find it nearly impossible to edgeguard a low recovery. With DW though, I can fire a DW at the ledge, and she'll take damage from the explosion before snapping to the ledge. This can stage spike, or set her up for followups after a successful tech.

DW is also one of Mega Man's most valuable anti-edgeguarding tools. Against great edgeguarders like Jigglypuff, Sheik or Lucina, I find it very helpful to toss out a DW to cover my low recovery. This can force them away from you, or even turn the situation around on hit.

In my opinion, we only need 1 CB set, 1112 for dealing with Link. Based on preference for other neutral specials, I would entertain the idea of (2/3)11(1/2/3) sets being viable, but we absolutely can't have all of them. DW sets have to take precedence.

On another note, Ice Slasher is pretty much crap until proven useful, IMO. Don't waste any sets on it.

I'm vehemently against overcentralizing on Metal Blade, and 33xx alone isn't enough coverage. I can accept having just two SB sets as long as one includes a 31xx set for those who would still desire Shadow Blade but don't want to completely sacrifice the long range.


Whatever though, it's the 17th, we gotta try and turn in something at this point. I'm not comfortable with Hyper Bomb or Ice Slasher at this time, so I'm not vouching for those at all personally. If others disagree though then by all means make a final suggestion. Perhaps we'll want one just in case HB or IS suddenly become desired between now and EVO.

So I saw a Shulk list broken up into "Critical", "Preferential", "Niche", and "Optional'. It's a good approach, so I'm doing just that.

~ Critical ~
1311
1312
1322
1323
~ Preferential ~
1112
1333
~ Niche ~
3323
3322
~ Optional ~
3122
????

Not my final preference or suggestion, but it'll have to do. I'm leaving the last Optional Set to whatever. If there's another Metal Blade set I missed, feel free to fill it in. Also feel free to adjust the orders between "Critical" and "Preferential".

We should include 1313. This is an optimal loadout against Jigglypuff, and in general, we should respect the 50/50 split on LF vs. PB.

As far as I know, nobody has shown that Tornado Hold is better than Rush in any matchups. I don't think it should be Critical. [edit] I will acknowledge that I'm not very experienced with Tornado Hold, however. I do make very, very close recoveries basically every game, though, so I'm hesitant to give up Rush.[/edit]

I'm not going to theorycraft about which sets are best for others, but these are the ones I personally use:

1311 - Almost every matchup
1313 - Jigglypuff
1312 - Projectile-heavy matchups
1112 - Link / Toon Link
Default - Rosalina

 

[mega4000]

We should include 1313. This is an optimal loadout against Jigglypuff, and in general, we should respect the 50/50 split on LF vs. PB.

As far as I know, nobody has shown that Tornado Hold is better than Rush in any matchups. I don't think it should be Critical.

I'm not going to theorycraft about which sets are best for others, but these are the ones I personally use:

1311 - Almost every matchup
1313 - Jigglypuff
1312 - Projectile-heavy matchups
1112 - Link / Toon Link
Default - Rosalina

dude, your post was amazing until the rosalina part and the tornado hold bashing. First the Tornado hold is the best gimping tool and stage control megaman has, even toon link and link have problems dealing with it and it stuns luma in one single hit. Do you really expect to challenge rosalina with the default set? specially after she gets her spam side b and her teleport luma? also, did you know danger wrap enters the unsafe zone of rosalina's down b? a lot of times danger wrap will hit rosalina even if she is performing her down b on the ground or on the air. I woudn't even think to change danger wrap for a crash bomb against her, specially when danger wrap kills luma in one single hit near the edge. Default set is the worst set for megaman, 1112 is way better for the sole reaslon of skull barrier being imune to crash bomb. Also, how do you expect to kill a good rosalina using customs with default set?
Against Rosalina this is my set and I would never change it:
132(?)
Metal blade obvious
danger wrap stunts luma in one hit and can surpass her down b
tornado hold, stunts luma in one hit and ruins her rush down and gimping game
the shield I put in ? because it doesn't matter, skull barrier is only useful if she is using a luma that can be reflected or you know how to use it because her custom spam side b is so fast she can dash attack right after it. Plant barrier is my prefered one because it ruins her rush down game and is the one I've the most success, but leaf shield is something that can be better in the future as for now I would choose plant barrier.

 

[Jehtt]

Mega4000, no way is the default set Mega Man's worst. It's very effective against Rosalina for a few reasons. The crash bomb does free damage to luma, her recovery can be leafstooled, MB goes right through Luma, and Rush is always a good recovery choice. IDK if beat would be more effective since Rosalina has such nice gimping prowess.

I can see the DW being useful as well, to an extent, but Rosalina seems like a very horizontal MU to me. I can imagine using it to force a low recovery, then leaf-stooling her.

However, I feel like the main focus of that MU should be getting rid of Luma, which is where most of her range, projectiles, and kill power come from. Danger Wrap is not as good at getting rid of Luma as Crash Bomb is.

 

[mega4000]

Mega4000, no way is the default set Mega Man's worst. It's very effective against Rosalina for a few reasons. The crash bomb does free damage to luma, her recovery can be leafstooled, MB goes right through Luma, and Rush is always a good recovery choice. IDK if beat would be more effective since Rosalina has such nice gimping prowess.

I can see the DW being useful as well, to an extent, but Rosalina seems like a very horizontal MU to me. I can imagine using it to force a low recovery, then leaf-stooling her.

However, I feel like the main focus of that MU should be getting rid of Luma, which is where most of her range, projectiles, and kill power come from. Danger Wrap is not as good at getting rid of Luma as Crash Bomb is.

let's see how you do it against her custom spam side b, who can negate crash bomb faster than you can shoot it and is faster than any projectile you have. Your advantage of spamming crash bomb and getting near while she does her down b is long long gone. Also how many shoots of crash bomb do you need to get rid of luma? I can do it in one single shot with may set, either tornado hold or danger wrap gives you a free stunt to perform any follow up to get rid of luma and if you are near the edge is game over for luma every single time, hell if she jumps and you use danger wrap, even if she dodge it luma is death, because the danger wrap kills it and if it doesn't your bair will kill it. I mean, come on! with danger wrap and tornado hold you eat luma for break fast even with her custom sets.

 

[Jehtt]

The only way I can see the danger wrap hitting Luma is if you walk right up to it, which is a terrible idea.

Also, like I said earlier, Rosalina's gimping is fantastic even with out Luma. That dair pushes you very far away from the stage. As such, I think Beat or Rush are the best options; the tornado hold isn't going to give you the recovery you need.

 

[cot(θ)]

dude, your post was amazing until the rosalina part and the tornado hold bashing. First the Tornado hold is the best gimping tool and stage control megaman has, even toon link and link have problems dealing with it and it stuns luma in one single hit. Do you really expect to challenge rosalina with the default set? specially after she gets her spam side b and her teleport luma? also, did you know danger wrap enters the unsafe zone of rosalina's down b? a lot of times danger wrap will hit rosalina even if she is performing her down b on the ground or on the air. I woudn't even think to change danger wrap for a crash bomb against her, specially when danger wrap kills luma in one single hit near the edge. Default set is the worst set for megaman, 1112 is way better for the sole reaslon of skull barrier being imune to crash bomb. Also, how do you expect to kill a good rosalina using customs with default set?
Against Rosalina this is my set and I would never change it:
132(?)
Metal blade obvious
danger wrap stunts luma in one hit and can surpass her down b
tornado hold, stunts luma in one hit and ruins her rush down and gimping game
the shield I put in ? because it doesn't matter, skull barrier is only useful if she is using a luma that can be reflected or you know how to use it because her custom spam side b is so fast she can dash attack right after it. Plant barrier is my prefered one because it ruins her rush down game and is the one I've the most success, but leaf shield is something that can be better in the future as for now I would choose plant barrier.

I see what you mean about Tornado Hold - I'm certainly no expert on that custom, so I'm sure it's useful in a lot of matchups I don't know about yet. I also need to play more Rosalinas who use customs - IMO, default Mega Man is great against default Rosalina, but you bring up some good points about Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit.

Honestly, I could see myself running every single one of Mega Man's customs in one matchup or another once I've really explored all of them. It's almost a crime to restrict us to 10 sets.

 

[mega4000]

The only way I can see the danger wrap hitting Luma is if you walk right up to it, which is a terrible idea.

Also, like I said earlier, Rosalina's gimping is fantastic even with out Luma. That dair pushes you very far away from the stage. As such, I think Beat or Rush are the best options; the tornado hold isn't going to give you the recovery you need.

Dude, I play the best rosalina of my country every single day, the one who fought fenrir, manage to win one of the most important tournys here, ranked fifth in a tourny that had ZeRo in it and got ZeRo's seal of approval because he could handle him. Believe me, when I say tornado hold is useful against her and gets rid of luma in one hit is because is the truth. Tornado hold negates her dair and juggling completly. I think you have troubles recovering with tornado hold because you haven't mastered it which shoudn't be a problem if you use tornado hold after your double jump and near the edge as much as possible. No matter how under the bottom you are, the vertical recovering from tornado hold is freaking amazing.

I see what you mean about Tornado Hold - I'm certainly no expert on that custom, so I'm sure it's useful in a lot of matchups I don't know about yet. I also need to play more Rosalinas who use customs - IMO, default Mega Man is great against default Rosalina, but you bring up some good points about Luma Warp and Shooting Star Bit.

Honestly, I could see myself running every single one of Mega Man's customs in one matchup or another once I've really explored all of them. It's almost a crime to restrict us to 10 sets.

Speedy star bit is faster than any megaman projectile except for jabs, but the thing is jabs have cool down after three hits while speedy star bit doesn't. Speedy star bit negates every single projectile and the only way to deal it is your lemons while going foward. No, NEVER EVER THINK skull barrier negates that because she will go for a grab or a dash attack while you can only go for a grab because speedy star bit won't let you grab a metal blade easily so skull barrier doesn't give you an advantage, is more of a chess game that can be replaced by good pellet game.
Anyway, aside from that your last post was freaking amazing!

 

[ChopperDave]

I played in a customs tournament yesterday where we were restricted to V1.0 of the Standardized Custom Moveset Project. The only Tornado Hold set available was 1121 and it was the woooorst. I had like adozen situations where Danger Wrap would have given me a kill but all I didn't have the option! Crash Bomber was fun but it ain't got nothin on the air superiority of 132x. Blerg.

FWIW, after experimenting with a few sets, the people I played at the tournament told me that they found 1121 the scariest set I used, even after I brought out the ever-popular 1311 for a few matches. I think Tornado Hold might quietly be one of our best customs, if only because it makes approaching us even more of a nightmare than usual.

Moral of the story: 1121 is dumb; what's the point of knocking people into the air if you can't blow them up afterwards for a roof KO at like 60%? 132x is the bee's knees.

 

[mega4000]

I played in a customs tournament yesterday where we were restricted to V1.0 of the Standardized Custom Moveset Project. The only Tornado Hold set available was 1121 and it was the woooorst. I had like adozen situations where Danger Wrap would have given me a kill but all I didn't have the option! Crash Bomber was fun but it ain't got nothin on the air superiority of 132x. Blerg.

FWIW, after experimenting with a few sets, the people I played at the tournament told me that they found 1121 the scariest set I used, even after I brought out the ever-popular 1311 for a few matches. I think Tornado Hold might quietly be one of our best customs, if only because it makes approaching us even more of a nightmare than usual.

Moral of the story: 1121 is dumb; what's the point of knocking people into the air if you can't blow them up afterwards for a roof KO at like 60%? 132x is the bee's knees.

Crash bomb + Tornado Hold is one of the worst combinations ever! I mean, Tornado Hold only works with danger wrap. Using Tornado Hold with crash bomb is like not even caring for the move so whats the point? if thats the case, every single thing your gonna do with crash bomb works way better with rush. For me Tornado Hold + danger wrap is the best combination megaman has. It was gives me most of the wins against pros and seriously not having danger wrap is a waste of space. Good Sheiks, Rosalinas and diddy kongs fear tornado hold + danger wrap combo like no tomorrow if you know what you are doing so pls! delete that stupid 1121 set because nobody ever will win a fight against a real pro with that set. That being said, negating their rush game and gimping them so damn easy with tornado hold is freaking amazing! even lucario and sheik have trouble coming back against that move.

 

[NinjaLink]

Just keep in mind while Ninjalink starts out well enough and shows off some good use, MikeKirby eventually adapts to his set faster than Ninjalink adapts... no, Ninjalink doesn't really adapt. >_>

I adapt just fine. Just playing around honestly lol

Anyway I worked on the final movesets for you guys. I would hope there wont be too many disappointments. Its hard when theres many viable combinations.

 

[p1ay6ack]

I adapt just fine. Just playing around honestly lol

Anyway I worked on the final movesets for you guys. I would hope there wont be too many disappointments. Its hard when theres many viable combinations.

i remebr you made a post on twitter about showcasing customs again. are you confirming megaman's customs? btw, there is alot of problems with so many variety of sets for mm, but i think the best syngergy for tornado hold is danger wrap.

tornado hold + danger wrap is just too good to consider an alternative b special

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-custom-moveset-project-summer-2015-edition-evo-sets.395721/
Mega Man :
1313, 1312, 1311, 1323, 1322, 1112, 1122, 3323, 3313, 1333

@ NinjaLink Am tagging you in case you want to give an explanation on some of the choices.

 

[Anomilus]

Oh good, you already posted it.

@ NinjaLink - Tagging as well as I'm curious as to why Metal Blades gets four sets with Skull Barrier and the only two suggested Shadow Blade sets don't.

Considering the overall loss of range, I would think having at least one with SkB would provide at least some option against other long-range fighters. As of now it looks like Villager is going to be a top character to contend with. I can imagine Rosalina's gimping abilities eliciting a need for better recovery instead of a reflector. But in such situations why not at least 3312 instead of 3313? Is Plant Barrier that vital?

...And not to give you-know-who too much credit, but there is Olimar as well. Well, just wanna read your thoughts on this as well as the other customs. I suppose the easiest answer to all of this is "Just use one of the 1xx2 sets". But that seems extreme, and in that case I find it hard pressed to believe such reasoning would have given Shadow Blades a pass at all...

Thanks in advance.

 

[NinjaLink]

3313 is more catered to close range play. Plant barrier has a bigger hitbox for those who wants to have coverage coming down from the sky, footstool setups, edgeguards etc. The petals do not go away on hit and it is active just as long as leaf shield is with more hitstun on hit. Just takes a few more frames to move afterwards. It also takes advantage of the 1 frame vulnerability on the ledge much better because of how wide the hitbox is.

I definitely considered Olimar as I had to do last minute changes. Main reason why Shadow Blade is not with Skull Barrier is due to it not being a held item. Shadow Blade doesnt have much durability nor the recovery speed needed to apply pressure properly in that matchup .Say against Olimar you want to reflect pikmin and you want to make him block with some pressure. If you were to hold a Metal Blade then Skull Barrier, you have the option of throwing the metal blade, Z-drop into a grab, etc. Having Shadow Blade completely gets rid of that option and the Olimar will most likely expect the grab being thats all you can do offensively.

 

[mega4000]

3313 is more catered to close range play. Plant barrier has a bigger hitbox for those who wants to have coverage coming down from the sky, footstool setups, edgeguards etc. The petals do not go away on hit and it is active just as long as leaf shield is with more hitstun on hit. Just takes a few more frames to move afterwards. It also takes advantage of the 1 frame vulnerability on the ledge much better because of how wide the hitbox is.

I definitely considered Olimar as I had to do last minute changes. Main reason why Shadow Blade is not with Skull Barrier is due to it not being a held item. Shadow Blade doesnt have much durability nor the recovery speed needed to apply pressure properly in that matchup .Say against Olimar you want to reflect pikmin and you want to make him block with some pressure. If you were to hold a Metal Blade then Skull Barrier, you have the option of throwing the metal blade, Z-drop into a grab, etc. Having Shadow Blade completely gets rid of that option and the Olimar will most likely expect the grab being thats all you can do offensively.

Congratulations for your list ninja link! Could you explain when to use which set (for which matchup and so on?) and my biggest doubt is 1122. Could you explain to me how and when this set should be used? also, the default set, I think 1112 is a superior option because skull barrier negates crash bomb explosion completly if they want to use it against you, and is a faster spam weapon. Do you think the default set should be dropped completly?