Meta Custom Moveset Project: Mega Man

[Locke 06]

Only watched the Grand Finals video, but Danger Wrap seemed incredibly ineffective. Crash Bomb would've allowed you to poke at mid-long range to keep pressure. The tradeoff, to me, just doesn't seem worth it unless your opponent runs into a point blank Danger Wrap like he did to end the set.

Just my observation. I don't think Danger Wrap is significantly and always better than Crash Bomb, and I'd argue that video supports that idea.

 

[p1ay6ack]

Not sure if you would consider this high level play but here are a few tourney matches of me running 1323. The most notable player that I used this against was Fatality (probably the best Falcon in the US imo).

Vs. Neos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9VysG7n9A (MM match starts at 11:25)

Vs. Fatality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qZEZ0KdkZk (Winner's Finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjBm8ImDzM (Grand Finals)

awesome showcase! i really like how you're using tornado hold as an offensive tool to bair. and tornado hold to cover their recovery from the ledge to a potential followup. at 11:55 against falcon in winner's finals, did you have end lag? i was waiting for a metal blade to come out, but falcon just got up in there . p.s. im watching grandfinals. im digging tornado hold and your followups youre getting with it

 

[p1ay6ack]

Only watched the Grand Finals video, but Danger Wrap seemed incredibly ineffective. Crash Bomb would've allowed you to poke at mid-long range to keep pressure. The tradeoff, to me, just doesn't seem worth it unless your opponent runs into a point blank Danger Wrap like he did to end the set.

Just my observation. I don't think Danger Wrap is significantly and always better than Crash Bomb, and I'd argue that video supports that idea.

i think there were times where captain falcon was recovering high, when scat couldve gotten better results with danger wrap than plant shield and make pressure. i mean even if danger wrap doesn't hit, it makes your opponent commit low and respect megaman. the last few minutes were intense at gf.

 

[Locke 06]

i think there were times where captain falcon was recovering high, when scat couldve gotten better results with danger wrap than plant shield and make pressure. i mean even if danger wrap doesn't hit, it makes your opponent commit low and respect megaman. the last few minutes were intense at gf.

Don't you get the same effect with UAir? It is a faster projectile to cover the high option, autocancels off of a full hop, SHFF UAir is more spammable than Danger Wrap, and is easier to trap with.

Also, Danger Wrap is outprioritized by everything.

 

[ChopperDave]

Don't you get the same effect with UAir? It is a faster projectile to cover the high option, autocancels off of a full hop, SHFF UAir is more spammable than Danger Wrap, and is easier to trap with.

Also, Danger Wrap is outprioritized by everything.

Man, you're pretty down on everyone's favorite explosive bubble, ain't ya!

For me, the nice thing about Danger Wrap is that, unlike spamming uair, you can have more than one projectile floating up on the screen at a time. This allows you to cover more space simultaneously. With DW -> uair -> Tornado Hold, you can make the skies a minefield, allowing you to keep up juggles longer than possible with uair alone.

Also, because DW floats up so slowly, you can actually set one up, then use uair or TH to push people into it. I often trap people by doing this at the ledge.

That's the main value of DW, I find: forcing reactions and setting up traps. Even if you're not hitting with it very often, it's a nice threat and a good way to mindgame your opponents into doing evasive maneuvers you can punish.

 

[Jehtt]

On the plant barrier vs leaf shield discussion.

Mega Man's other options in neutral are vastly superior. Using it as a mixup in neutral is silly to me.

Airdodging with the hitbox in a disadvantaged position is overrated because your options are limited to only airdodging and jumping as soon as you pull it out. Still, if you plan on using it for this reason, I think the higher startup on Plant barrier isn't a big deal because you'd only use it or leaf shield if you have a lot of time to pull it out in the first place. The lower duration of Plant barrier is also a plus here in case you're knocked off-stage.

Offensively, plant barrier is more reliable in trap situations and in edge-guarding in major part because of the oscillation. The high damage and low duration increase its risk:reward as well.

My vote is for Plant barrier>Leaf shield in nearly every set where we don't use skull barrier.

You're underestimating the startup. In a situation where you need to edgeguard, that extra startup can be the difference between leafstooling someone like Captain Falcon or not.

 

[---]

Also, Danger Wrap is outprioritized by everything.

To be fair, IS/DW have slightly better priority than Crash Bomber, though they're all pretty terrible. Though I don't know why you would need to worry about priority with DW as I see it more for controlling space and juggling than anything.

CB for me personally tends to backfire more than anything. If too close, you get punished. Too far away, it can be tough to get the punish. Am probably doing something wrong though.

Not sure if you would consider this high level play but here are a few tourney matches of me running 1323. The most notable player that I used this against was Fatality (probably the best Falcon in the US imo).

Vs. Neos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ9VysG7n9A (MM match starts at 11:25)

Vs. Fatality

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qZEZ0KdkZk (Winner's Finals)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOjBm8ImDzM (Grand Finals)

Awesome examples. Even caught the DW glitch at about 2:00 in the Winner's Finals. lol

Also, because DW floats up so slowly, you can actually set one up, then use uair or TH to push people into it. I often trap people by doing this at the ledge.

I won't lie, in that recent custom's video (3323), I laughed hard at Ninjalink's set up of DW -> Up Throw

 

[Locke 06]

To be fair, IS/DW have slightly better priority than Crash Bomber, though they're all pretty terrible. Though I don't know why you would need to worry about priority with DW as I see it more for controlling space and juggling than anything.

DW has the same priority as crash bomb, if I'm reading the data correctly. The bubble does 0% on contact just like the crash bomb and then explodes. (@ Indigo Jeans - I could use some help from my hitbox data buddy)

Priority, to me, makes a difference because DW's horizontal range is bad, limiting its use as a close range tool. I get that it works as a space control tool in the air allowing you to have more things in the air (diagonal MB works too, but not as well), but its utility is less than Crash Bomb, which fills in Mega's zoning game. The KO power is attractive, but I prefer a stronger zoning/defensive game.

I get that many people like it, and I see why, but to say it's the clear superior option feels very wrong when the two moves are very different in how they are used. At the least, it should be acknowledged as a preferential option.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

I think CB would be good for zoning if it actually did immediate damage to people. CB was cool at first, but it got less and less effective at heightening levels of play. Nowadays, I only use it at long range or after someone respawns with invulnerability. Even then, I don't get too much out of sticking someone with it, especially fast characters.

A cool thing I can note about CB is that you can use it to refresh your up B on stages with walled edges, assuming you are too far away to recover with just Rush + double jump.
CB towards stage -> Rush -> DJ -> Walljump if necessary -> get hit by CB -> Rush

 

[CopShowGuy]

I find Danger Wrap to be a good shotgun. I don't think it or Metal Blade should dominate every set though.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

So far, I have 6 must-have sets.
1311
1312
1323
3321 (a bit niche because of Shadow Blade)
1332
1333

As for niche sets, if we were to pack just 1 CB set and 1 IS, I think their best optimizations would be these two sets respectively.
1112
1233

8 sets total. 2 more suggestions needed, probably 1 HB set and another SB set to truly satisfy everyone.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

DW has the same priority as crash bomb, if I'm reading the data correctly. The bubble does 0% on contact just like the crash bomb and then explodes. (@ Indigo Jeans - I could use some help from my hitbox data buddy)

Priority, to me, makes a difference because DW's horizontal range is bad, limiting its use as a close range tool. I get that it works as a space control tool in the air allowing you to have more things in the air (diagonal MB works too, but not as well), but its utility is less than Crash Bomb, which fills in Mega's zoning game. The KO power is attractive, but I prefer a stronger zoning/defensive game.

I get that many people like it, and I see why, but to say it's the clear superior option feels very wrong when the two moves are very different in how they are used. At the least, it should be acknowledged as a preferential option.

Hitbox data buddies! Anyway you are right; DW and CB's contact hitboxes are identical. 0%, 0 KBG, 0 WKB, 5 BKB, same attribute. Of course it's more noticeable on CB since it doesn't detonate immediately. It's when the target gets shifted away very quickly, a very short distance.

Also I'm confused about what you all mean when you say DW/IS/CB get outprioritised by stuff... DW and CB's explosions both and all have transcendent priority, and in fact DW's deal more damage, so I would think that they would have higher priority still. I'm not very knowledgeable on Mega Man so I'd appreciate clarification!

 

[Locke 06]

Hitbox data buddies! Anyway you are right; DW and CB's contact hitboxes are identical. 0%, 0 KBG, 0 WKB, 5 BKB, same attribute. Of course it's more noticeable on CB since it doesn't detonate immediately. It's when the target gets shifted away very quickly, a very short distance.

Also I'm confused about what you all mean when you say DW/IS/CB get outprioritised by stuff... DW and CB's explosions both and all have transcendent priority, and in fact DW's deal more damage, so I would think that they would have higher priority still. I'm not very knowledgeable on Mega Man so I'd appreciate clarification!

The explosions have transcendent priority, yes, but if someone falls on DW with a NAir, they will beat out the contact hitbox and never trigger the explosion. DW and CB don't explode if the contact hitbox gets beaten out, if I understand it correctly, so the transcendence doesn't come into play.

 

[Jehtt]

The explosions have transcendent priority, yes, but if someone falls on DW with a NAir, they will beat out the contact hitbox and never trigger the explosion. DW and CB don't explode if the contact hitbox gets beaten out, if I understand it correctly, so the transcendence doesn't come into play.

They do get a nice bit of hitlag that you can hit them during when this happens.

 

[---]

DW has the same priority as crash bomb, if I'm reading the data correctly. The bubble does 0% on contact just like the crash bomb and then explodes. (@ Indigo Jeans - I could use some help from my hitbox data buddy)

Priority, to me, makes a difference because DW's horizontal range is bad, limiting its use as a close range tool. I get that it works as a space control tool in the air allowing you to have more things in the air (diagonal MB works too, but not as well), but its utility is less than Crash Bomb, which fills in Mega's zoning game. The KO power is attractive, but I prefer a stronger zoning/defensive game.

I get that many people like it, and I see why, but to say it's the clear superior option feels very wrong when the two moves are very different in how they are used. At the least, it should be acknowledged as a preferential option.

My bad then. Was going off the priority thread I did a while back.

I would think it's the preferred option, but clear superior option it is not. There are definitely some matches and play styles it fits better. 1112 I think should gain some priority when considering sets, at least compared to considering giving a certain set it's own specific Shield option. Anyone want to get a LS/PB Poll started?

Not quite sure what you mean by utility though. Know any videos featuring a defensive MM?

 

[Knight Dude]

It's not too weird to use Tornado Hold the most right? Because when fighting with Customs, that's my recovery attack. I like being able to deal some damage too. But I get the feeling Rush might still be the best overall.

 

[mega4000]

if people despise tornado hold so much, then you people shoudn't be allowed to make a set for tornado hold and should stick to rush. Specially when you people don't even use it. For us tornado hold users 1321 and 1322 are the best with 1323 being just in testing process. The rest won't be used by us tornado hold users and the only other possibility is a shadow blade set, but that's just niche because in the end metal blade + danger wrap combo will surpass almost everything. Also to people looking down on danger wrap, go and win a custom tourny using crash bomb. No megaman has won a default tourny using crash bomb, do you really believe that your chances will increase when customs are allowed? specially when every single character is changing all of their moves? default megaman will get destroyed when customs are allowed, specially when the only game changer megaman has is his side b. Metal blade is still the same, tornado hold can only be used properly by a few people and the down b's aren't a game changer. Just wait and see, because default megaman and niche moves have no future in high competitive level.

 

[Locke 06]

My bad then. Was going off the priority thread I did a while back.

I would think it's the preferred option, but clear superior option it is not. There are definitely some matches and play styles it fits better. 1112 I think should gain some priority when considering sets, at least compared to considering giving a certain set it's own specific Shield option. Anyone want to get a LS/PB Poll started?

Not quite sure what you mean by utility though. Know any videos featuring a defensive MM?

By utility, I mean the situations to use Crash Bomb occur more frequently than the situations to use Danger Wrap. The general usefulness of having one move over the other.

I'll toot my own horn as a defensive MM.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...r-vs-charge-shot.371407/page-12#post-18735622 videos on this post.
The matchup is death and I don't use crash bomb a whole lot (because pellets are generally a better option), but the general use of crash bomb applies.

Also, Scatt is pretty defensive from what I remember seeing.

1112 is great, but 11XX are fine options as well.


Custom moves are not always better than defaults. Not every character is changing their moves. I'd argue our game changing customs are skull barrier first, danger wrap second, and then maybe Tornado Hold and IS for how different they are from the defaults. Saying default Mega has no tournament future is just silly. Only going default is likely a poor choice, because better options exist based on MU's, but that doesn't mean Mega's default options are not valuable in their own right.

I'm saying facts and providing evidence for my argument. You argue against me by saying, "go win a tournament." It's not like my ideas are based completely on theory. There's plenty of default mega man footage out there.

 

[---]

By utility, I mean the situations to use Crash Bomb occur more frequently than the situations to use Danger Wrap. The general usefulness of having one move over the other.

I figured, but I just don't see those opportunities yet. Thanks for the link, as I desperately need something to compare.

Custom moves are not always better than defaults. Not every character is changing their moves. I'd argue our game changing customs are skull barrier first, danger wrap second, and then maybe Tornado Hold and IS for how different they are from the defaults. Saying default Mega has no tournament future is just silly. Only going default is likely a poor choice, because better options exist based on MU's, but that doesn't mean Mega's default options are not valuable in their own right.

I'm saying facts and providing evidence for my argument. You argue against me by saying, "go win a tournament." It's not like my ideas are based completely on theory. There's plenty of default mega man footage out there.

I don't think anyone is arguing with you in that sense, Metal Blade is enough of an argument for that. Compromising playstyles is a tough process (and to be frank we're doing better than most politicians), especially this early in the metagame.

Either way I'm proud to be maining a character with such options. The discussions we've been having are making great strides in advancing the metagame. lol

 

[mega4000]

By utility, I mean the situations to use Crash Bomb occur more frequently than the situations to use Danger Wrap. The general usefulness of having one move over the other.

I'll toot my own horn as a defensive MM.
http://smashboards.com/threads/zero...r-vs-charge-shot.371407/page-12#post-18735622 videos on this post.
The matchup is death and I don't use crash bomb a whole lot (because pellets are generally a better option), but the general use of crash bomb applies.

Also, Scatt is pretty defensive from what I remember seeing.

1112 is great, but 11XX are fine options as well.


Custom moves are not always better than defaults. Not every character is changing their moves. I'd argue our game changing customs are skull barrier first, danger wrap second, and then maybe Tornado Hold and IS for how different they are from the defaults. Saying default Mega has no tournament future is just silly. Only going default is likely a poor choice, because better options exist based on MU's, but that doesn't mean Mega's default options are not valuable in their own right.

I'm saying facts and providing evidence for my argument. You argue against me by saying, "go win a tournament." It's not like my ideas are based completely on theory. There's plenty of default mega man footage out there.

I suppose this post is directed to me, even when is not quoting my post. Yes there is plenty of default mega man footage out there, but none of them have ever manage to win a serious tournament. I play to win, and having niche sets or sets to similar to default megaman is guaranteed defeat. Have you seen megaman's tournament result? They are bad compared to sheik, diddys, rosas and others. For most people out there megaman is a crappy character and always gets destroyed by top tiers. Sure there are plenty of good megamans out there and sometimes even I've make people go nuts in my matches, but what's the point of that if you don't manage to win the first place? if you are always under the big ones? I played against Zero in a recent tourny and even him thinks that megaman needs to camp to much in order to get a single win and lacks a good safe killing move. Go and ask him what he thinks about crash bomb compared to the bubble that you people don't like and see the answer from an actual pro who studys the game the whole day and plays with every single character instead of people who believes a move is better just because they are use to it. Also Ice Slasher? no comments, when someone get good results in a tourny with that move, then I will eat my words but for now for me its the most useless crap every created and doesn't deserve a set, even against mr game and watch is inferior, so no I'm not gonna support hyper bomb or ice slasher sets.

 

[Fenrir VII]

@ mega4000 , ease up. The points you are making don't have much basis.

First off, I don't really care what ZeRo thinks about mega man. There's no need to name drop him in here... he's a good player who picked the current best/easiest chars in the game to have optimal success. This does not make him an expert on Mega Man or his movesets.

Your post might have merit if we were 2+ years into the game's life... but honestly, Mega Man plays nothing like any previous Smash characters, and he does not have simple game-breaking tactics, so of COURSE he's not doing as well as Diddy, Sheik, and Rosa, who are all incredibly similar to their old versions or other chars and are incredibly straightforward to play. Note I'm not saying they are easy to win with, but when you give a good player easy death combos out of dthrow or a walking meat shield, of course they'll have success.
Meanwhile, mega man started REALLY slowly, because he's very different than any other char. Give him some time and my expectation is that he will be a MONSTER. I am currently expecting similar results to Brawl DDD, due to his incredibly positive matchup spread. And you can see that Mega is rising in the ranks of high-level tournaments... even with the default moveset (which I actually think is one of his best overall)

Ice Slasher is much better than you are making it out to be. To me, it's easily the 3rd best side B in terms of general usefulness (meaning I would never pick it in a blind character pick), but against the big slow pressure chars that like to hold stage control, it's easily the best option and deserves 1 set.

I tend to agree with you about Hyper Bomb, but at the same time, I understand why people support it. If Mega had HB as his default/only Neutral B, I still think he'd be great, because it does cover a nice chunk of area and has a number of uses. I just have trouble ever giving up metal blade, honestly.

Also Danger Wrap is easily the most popular sideB choice, so it's not like you're alone in that call. Locke isn't too fond of it, and I personally prefer Crash Bomb for many matchups (although I would still probably go 1311 on a blind pick), but you're not breaking ground with that.

 

[Locke 06]

I suppose this post is directed to me, even when is not quoting my post. Yes there is plenty of default mega man footage out there, but none of them have ever manage to win a serious tournament. I play to win, and having niche sets or sets to similar to default megaman is guaranteed defeat. Have you seen megaman's tournament result? They are bad compared to sheik, diddys, rosas and others. For most people out there megaman is a crappy character and always gets destroyed by top tiers. Sure there are plenty of good megamans out there and sometimes even I've make people go nuts in my matches, but what's the point of that if you don't manage to win the first place? if you are always under the big ones? I played against Zero in a recent tourny and even him thinks that megaman needs to camp to much in order to get a single win and lacks a good safe killing move. Go and ask him what he thinks about crash bomb compared to the bubble that you people don't like and see the answer from an actual pro who studys the game the whole day and plays with every single character instead of people who believes a move is better just because they are use to it. Also Ice Slasher? no comments, when someone get good results in a tourny with that move, then I will eat my words but for now for me its the most useless crap every created and doesn't deserve a set, even against mr game and watch is inferior, so no I'm not gonna support nor hyper bomb nor ice slasher sets.

Yeah, sorry for not quoting you. "Having sets similar to default mega man is guaranteed defeat" is not a fact. If you believe that, then changing your specials is not going to do anything for you, as the character stays mostly the same. The most recent Japanese tier list has Mega Man as a top-15? character, and it is generally accepted that Mega Man is solidly in the top 20 mark of the cast. This is without customs. The idea that Mega Man is unable to win a tournament and always gets destroyed by top tiers is just nonsense.

I follow Mega Man's tournament results. I see that Zucco, NinjaLink, and Greward consistently place well and do well in many matchups. NinjaLink has won at least one tournament (grand finals vs Mike Kirby is a video that has been posted). It's no coincidence that the three of them, Seibrik, and Badada all made it out of pools using Mega Man at APEX, nor is it a coincidence that NinjaLink made it to top 16. Anyone who places that well at APEX, is enough to win a regional, and dominate a local. Mega Man had one of the strongest showings at APEX as far as characters go.

I respect Zero and his opinions, and I happen to agree that Mega Man needs to camp/zone/play defensively at a high level as the only remotely safe melee options are point blank jab/Nair, cross up/fade away FAir, and a landing uair. He does not have a safe kill move, which Danger Wrap rectifies somewhat (but not completely). That doesn't mean he's a bad character at all. Mega Man has a few kill setups, top edge guarding, and a very good grab game. Compare that to Fox, who has kill setups, but has even less safe options on shield and worse edge guarding/recovery.

I study the game quite a bit. That's why I know Danger Wrap has 0 priority, know that Danger Wrap is not a great juggle tool because it is vulnerable from above, and know that crash bomb has legitimate qualities that make it a good move (shield damage/poking is legit). I understand what the moves do, and how they can be used, and form my own opinion by combining that with my experience. I'm quite up to date on the Mega Man meta, considering I help drive it forward.

I don't believe crash bomb is better because I'm used to it. If you read my post, you'd understand that I believe it is more valuable to Mega Man's zoning game than Danger Wrap is, since Danger Wrap doesn't help zone at all. If you follow Zero's logic, crash bomb fits into the camping/zoning game better than Danger Wrap. Since I prioritize zoning and racking up damage more than killing, I prefer crash bomb over danger wrap. It's really that simple. I believe I'm not completely alone in that mindset, which is why I lobby for more Crash Bomb sets. I don't know much about Tornado Hold or how it's used (since the only experience I have with the move at a high level is watching ScAtt and NinjaLink beat up on someone who probably has only seen the move 10 times), so I'm not ragging on the move, even though I'm not sold on it at all.

I get you don't like those moves and think they're worthless. That's fine. You can have your opinion. But you do not even address the points I make and keep spouting the same "Mega Man can't win" nonsense. There is no discussion to be had, so I'll just end it.

Edit: Wow. Okay. Loving the disrespect here. I'll just see myself out. I'll just ignore the fact that Fenrir & I play all the time and I'm better than Fenrir we are evenly matched (I'm surprised this is actually becoming a running joke)

 

[mega4000]

@ mega4000 , ease up. The points you are making don't have much basis.

First off, I don't really care what ZeRo thinks about mega man. There's no need to name drop him in here... he's a good player who picked the current best/easiest chars in the game to have optimal success. This does not make him an expert on Mega Man or his movesets.

Your post might have merit if we were 2+ years into the game's life... but honestly, Mega Man plays nothing like any previous Smash characters, and he does not have simple game-breaking tactics, so of COURSE he's not doing as well as Diddy, Sheik, and Rosa, who are all incredibly similar to their old versions or other chars and are incredibly straightforward to play. Note I'm not saying they are easy to win with, but when you give a good player easy death combos out of dthrow or a walking meat shield, of course they'll have success.
Meanwhile, mega man started REALLY slowly, because he's very different than any other char. Give him some time and my expectation is that he will be a MONSTER. I am currently expecting similar results to Brawl DDD, due to his incredibly positive matchup spread. And you can see that Mega is rising in the ranks of high-level tournaments... even with the default moveset (which I actually think is one of his best overall)

Ice Slasher is much better than you are making it out to be. To me, it's easily the 3rd best side B in terms of general usefulness (meaning I would never pick it in a blind character pick), but against the big slow pressure chars that like to hold stage control, it's easily the best option and deserves 1 set.

I tend to agree with you about Hyper Bomb, but at the same time, I understand why people support it. If Mega had HB as his default/only Neutral B, I still think he'd be great, because it does cover a nice chunk of area and has a number of uses. I just have trouble ever giving up metal blade, honestly.

Also Danger Wrap is easily the most popular sideB choice, so it's not like you're alone in that call. Locke isn't too fond of it, and I personally prefer Crash Bomb for many matchups (although I would still probably go 1311 on a blind pick), but you're not breaking ground with that.

Well, I respect you as a player, so if you say so, I'm gonna try Ice Slasher on the next 2 tournys and see what happens. Bringing names of course is important, for example you: Even with lag you are one of the few people that could handle my bro's Rosa who is ranked 5th here and have crushed a lot of players and is on the rise every single week. We don't think you play good with crash bomb, but your air shooter + metal blade game is amazing so everytime someone here says for example air shooter sucks, my bro brings you as an example of how to properly use it. Zero is a respectable player, believe me he doesn't depend on diddy kong only, he went to a tourny here and played money match dittos against every single player here, and never drop a single game. In apex he didn't lose a single game but here he lost one game against our best player so our level isn't that bad. He is a nice guy, believe me and if you ask him why he plays diddy kong is because he is playing to win. He could switch to cap falcon who is his favorite and win a lot of matches, but against very good players he doesn't get guarantee results so that's why he goes diddy kong. Zero knows alot about the game and if you ask anything he will gladly explain to you how, why and even offer you to teach you about every single char. He plays megaman too, not on tournys but he knows the character, believe me and his goal right now is winning evo without customs in order to prove that the game remains the same.

Yeah, sorry for not quoting you. "Having sets similar to default mega man is guaranteed defeat" is not a fact. If you believe that, then changing your specials is not going to do anything for you, as the character stays mostly the same. The most recent Japanese tier list has Mega Man as a top-15? character, and it is generally accepted that Mega Man is solidly in the top 20 mark of the cast. This is without customs. The idea that Mega Man is unable to win a tournament and always gets destroyed by top tiers is just nonsense.

I follow Mega Man's tournament results. I see that Zucco, NinjaLink, and Greward consistently place well and do well in many matchups. NinjaLink has won at least one tournament (grand finals vs Mike Kirby is a video that has been posted). It's no coincidence that the three of them, Seibrik, and Badada all made it out of pools using Mega Man at APEX, nor is it a coincidence that NinjaLink made it to top 16. Anyone who places that well at APEX, is enough to win a regional, and dominate a local. Mega Man had one of the strongest showings at APEX as far as characters go.

I respect Zero and his opinions, and I happen to agree that Mega Man needs to camp/zone/play defensively at a high level as the only remotely safe melee options are point blank jab/Nair, cross up/fade away FAir, and a landing uair. He does not have a safe kill move, which Danger Wrap rectifies somewhat (but not completely). That doesn't mean he's a bad character at all. Mega Man has a few kill setups, top edge guarding, and a very good grab game. Compare that to Fox, who has kill setups, but has even less safe options on shield and worse edge guarding/recovery.

I study the game quite a bit. That's why I know Danger Wrap has 0 priority, know that Danger Wrap is not a great juggle tool because it is vulnerable from above, and know that crash bomb has legitimate qualities that make it a good move (shield damage/poking is legit). I understand what the moves do, and how they can be used, and form my own opinion by combining that with my experience. I'm quite up to date on the Mega Man meta, considering I help drive it forward.

I don't believe crash bomb is better because I'm used to it. If you read my post, you'd understand that I believe it is more valuable to Mega Man's zoning game than Danger Wrap is, since Danger Wrap doesn't help zone at all. If you follow Zero's logic, crash bomb fits into the camping/zoning game better than Danger Wrap. Since I prioritize zoning and racking up damage more than killing, I prefer crash bomb over danger wrap. It's really that simple. I believe I'm not completely alone in that mindset, which is why I lobby for more Crash Bomb sets. I don't know much about Tornado Hold or how it's used (since the only experience I have with the move at a high level is watching ScAtt and NinjaLink beat up on someone who probably has only seen the move 10 times), so I'm not ragging on the move, even though I'm not sold on it at all.

I get you don't like those moves and think they're worthless. That's fine. You can have your opinion. But you do not even address the points I make and keep spouting the same "Mega Man can't win" nonsense. There is no discussion to be had, so I'll just end it.

hum.. I don't know what to say to you right now.. I think we have completly different opinions on how to use the move, for example I think the reaction to protect yourself after throwing a danger wrap is very safe, just the startup is punishible but oh well. I think the best thing we could do is having sets for every taste and see what gets the best results at tournys, then we should drop everything that gets bad results.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

All three Up B options are viable. Let's make two sets centralized around each.
xx1x
xx1x
xx2x
xx2x
xx3x
xx3x
Okay, the majority of people agree that Metal Blade and Danger Wrap are the superior Neutral and Side B moves, respectively. Let's add those to our current sets, making them our bases.
131x
131x
132x
132x
133x
133x
Each pair should be given one Skull Barrier variation. Add either Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier to the remaining set in a given pair.
1311
1312
1323
1322
1333
1332
Six standard sets. Four customs have been left untouched: Hyper Bomb, Shadow Blade, Crash Bomber, and Ice Slasher. Add one set for each. Now we have ten sets total.
2xxx
3xxx
x1xx
x2xx
From here, we should try to model the niche sets closely to the standard sets. We've already mentioned the Crash Bomber set, 1112. It looks exactly like the standard set 1312 apart from one component, the Side B.
23xx
33xx
1112
12xx
This doesn't satisfy everyone. Some people may think Shadow Blade deserves two sets. One of the six "standard" sets may not be good. Someone may want to have two niche moves on the same set, such as 2112.
We have to do a few things:
Decide on which niche moves deserve more than one set.
Finish selecting a full set for the remaining niches.
Decide which sets would prefer Plant Barrier over Leaf Shield.
Determine whether a set with two uncommon moves would be necessary.

 

[Anomilus]

How many times do I have to promote 3122 / 3123??

I'm not expecting instant agreement, but it's looking like it's not even getting consideration. Just seeing continuous 33xx, 33xx...

And lo and behold, somebody finally comes out and says what I already suspected: Crash Bombs is good for zoning, Danger Wrap not so much. So if Metal Blade + Danger Wrap has an issue with zoning, how much more SB + DW??

Crash Bomb at the least gives Mega Man a long range option while Shadow Blade covers mid-range (with lemons to assist). Like Metal Blades, you shouldn't be staying still when tossing a Shadow Blade (unless the opponent would end up in the exact proper position).

Finally there's the synergy of SB and Skull Barrier. SB's ability to hit on the way back adds further pressure to players trying to shield away the explosion. Skull Barrier protects Mega Man from any Crash Bomb issues.

As for 3123, I feel Plant Barrier is the offensive shield and should be promoted over the more defensive Leaf Shield.

 

[mega4000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u8tq0hPbIY
And yet people say danger wrap isn't a killing move... Well, as StyleX2 said: Mega Man controls the air competly with danger wrap, he can force you to air dodge and punish you with a bair.

 

[DanGR]

Mmm, I don't understand the relevance of crash bomb in zoning. Lemons/shadow blade/metal blade overlap in use cases. I see crash bomb more as a camping deterrent than a zoning tool, considering its high range, slow travel speed, and how it forces opponents into a defensive position on hit.

Danger wrap on the other hand fills the niche of covering the up-diagonal area blind spot, as situational as it may be, and functions as a possible kill move. It also has frame trapping properties in juggle situations against many characters.

Yeah virtually every attack cancels it out, but how many aerials can characters throw out safely against it and a mega man looming below. Sex kicks are the easiest to use to clash with danger wrap, but also have more commitment than many aerials. D-airs across the board are unsafe to use from above to cancel out danger wrap. DW also can't be canceled out if you time it to coincide with characters' landings on platforms. I don't think priority is an issue in advantaged states. However I concede that in neutral DW isn't too reliable in that regard.

A less discussed point I also want to mention is that against rush-down DW provides a decent way to transition into advantaged states from neutral- something I think mega man sorely lacks.

 

[Locke 06]

Mmm, I don't understand the relevance of crash bomb in zoning. Lemons/shadow blade/metal blade overlap in use cases. I see crash bomb more as a camping deterrent than a zoning tool, considering its high range, slow travel speed, and how it forces opponents into a defensive position on hit.

Danger wrap on the other hand fills the niche of covering the up-diagonal area blind spot, as situational as it may be, and functions as a possible kill move. It also has frame trapping properties in juggle situations against many characters.

Yeah virtually every attack cancels it out, but how many aerials can characters throw out safely against it and a mega man looming below. Sex kicks are the easiest to use to clash with danger wrap, but also have more commitment than many aerials. D-airs across the board are unsafe to use from above to cancel out danger wrap. DW also can't be canceled out if you time it to coincide with characters' landings on platforms. I don't think priority is an issue in advantaged states. However I concede that in neutral DW isn't too reliable in that regard.

A less discussed point I also want to mention is that against rush-down DW provides a decent way to transition into advantaged states from neutral- something I think mega man sorely lacks.

Lemons/Metal/Shadow blades overlap in more close-mid range while crash bomb extends your "zoning" at the edge of lemon range. It's mostly a pressure tool, so I'd say you're right in the idea that it's not a zoning tool, as it does nothing to "keep your opponent at a certain range" if we were to define zoning tools as such. You can think of it as a tool that capitalizes on your zoning. As you say, transitioning into advantaged states from neutral is something Mega Man isn't terribly good at. CB puts you in an advantaged state (albeit not one nearly as good as DW) from neutral and benefits from being a small horizontal projectile that you can shield poke with. Even if the explosion is blocked, CB does quite a bit of shield damage, helping you shield poke more.

Ice Slasher is more of a zoning tool, due to its instant reward on hit, and provides a great way to transition into a positional advantage from neutral. Which is why I advocate its use. But that's neither here nor there, as it seems like Ice Slasher will likely just get set aside for the time being. Danger Wrap does allow for a good way to transition, especially against rush downs who like to be in your face, but you have to hit with it, which I think is somewhat difficult in neutral.

My qualm with DW as a juggle tool/in advantage is that it's so slow to go up making it not abnormally hard to drift & avoid. If you can lead your opponent into its trajectory, you have a very strong frame trap that leads to BAir/UAir or getting hit by the bubble. Otherwise, you need to jump up to juggle them with it, which leads to the issue of priority. It's an issue with the move, but I may have overstated it too much.

I don't want to seem like I think Danger Wrap is terrible or useless. It's a move that kills, has a unique trajectory, and is strong trapping tool. The ledge trap with it is superb, as is a landing trap. However, I see it playing a similar role to UAir while substantially weakening Mega Man's neutral game. I don't think people are wrong to prefer it over CB/IS, it may fit their play best, but I would advocate that it's not the clear cut best side-B like Metal Blade has been shown to be for neutral-B (shadow blade and hyper bombs are more experimental and less mainstream in terms of MU experience).

If we had 9 sets with crash bomb/IS and only 1 with danger wrap, I'd be defending danger wrap as a viable option. While it doesn't fit me, I have no problem with it being a strong option. If that hasn't been made clear, I apologize.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u8tq0hPbIY
And yet people say danger wrap isn't a killing move... Well, as StyleX2 said: Mega Man controls the air competly with danger wrap, he can force you to air dodge and punish you with a bair.

I assume that's pointed towards me, since I'm one of the few in the "Danger Wrap is meh" camp. I don't think I ever said it didn't kill. I got killed with it last night in some friendlies against @Blade Knight .

edit: Delfino. Man... I dislike that stage's jank more than Halberd.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

@ Anomilus I dislike the thought of 3123 because it has Tornado Hold without Danger Wrap. If you're going to suggest 31xx try 3111 or 3112.

@ Locke 06 I feel Crash Bomber gets worse the more your opponent knows about it. A jab, jump, dodge, or well angled shield will prevent the initial stick. A decently healthy shield or a dodge will protect you from the explosion. When your opponent DOES get stuck, they don't have to go for a defensive option. They have three seconds to prevent your approach OR stick it back to you, in which case they get the advantage.

CB is slow and without priority and immediate damage. It doesn't zone. At long range, they most likely won't get hit since it is so easy to see coming. At mid range, they are probably already next to you. This move is near worthless against rush down characters.

Regardless of all of that, I still love the move. The uniqueness of it as well as the rest of MM's moveset is what I love. MM has so many things at his disposal, and so many ways to get creative with it all. Connecting CB and firing off a well timed Fsmash for the shield break is incredible. Upsmashing a stuck victim and letting them die to the CB explosion always satisfies. Off stage shenanigans. Mind games galore...

But at high level play, it becomes a gimmick. A good one, but still a gimmick.

 

[p1ay6ack]

about crash bomb. i know its go

@ Anomilus I dislike the thought of 3123 because it has Tornado Hold without Danger Wrap. If you're going to suggest 31xx try 3111 or 3112.

@ Locke 06 I feel Crash Bomber gets worse the more your opponent knows about it. A jab, jump, dodge, or well angled shield will prevent the initial stick. A decently healthy shield or a dodge will protect you from the explosion. When your opponent DOES get stuck, they don't have to go for a defensive option. They have three seconds to prevent your approach OR stick it back to you, in which case they get the advantage.

CB is slow and without priority and immediate damage. It doesn't zone. At long range, they most likely won't get hit since it is so easy to see coming. At mid range, they are probably already next to you. This move is near worthless against rush down characters.

Regardless of all of that, I still love the move. The uniqueness of it as well as the rest of MM's moveset is what I love. MM has so many things at his disposal, and so many ways to get creative with it all. Connecting CB and firing off a well timed Fsmash for the shield break is incredible. Upsmashing a stuck victim and letting them die to the CB explosion always satisfies. Off stage shenanigans. Mind games galore...

But at high level play, it becomes a gimmick. A good one, but still a gimmick.

"CB is slow and without priority and immediate damage." this is pretty much summing up my expereince with crash bomb. there are good things about it, but i feel megaman really needs a side b that gets dmg on impact, like DW or IS.

 

[Locke 06]

@ Locke 06 I feel Crash Bomber gets worse the more your opponent knows about it. A jab, jump, dodge, or well angled shield will prevent the initial stick. A decently healthy shield or a dodge will protect you from the explosion. When your opponent DOES get stuck, they don't have to go for a defensive option. They have three seconds to prevent your approach OR stick it back to you, in which case they get the advantage.

CB is slow and without priority and immediate damage. It doesn't zone. At long range, they most likely won't get hit since it is so easy to see coming. At mid range, they are probably already next to you. This move is near worthless against rush down characters.

Regardless of all of that, I still love the move. The uniqueness of it as well as the rest of MM's moveset is what I love. MM has so many things at his disposal, and so many ways to get creative with it all. Connecting CB and firing off a well timed Fsmash for the shield break is incredible. Upsmashing a stuck victim and letting them die to the CB explosion always satisfies. Off stage shenanigans. Mind games galore...

But at high level play, it becomes a gimmick. A good one, but still a gimmick.

I'll start with the stick:
CB isn't slow. Ice Slasher is slow. CB travels about as fast as a metal blade if memory serves me right. As far as projectiles go, CB is about average. It has no priority, but it's a projectile used at mid-long range; being outprioritized means very little because you're at a safe distance away. Where priority for this move matters is with other projectiles. Any conventional defensive option (the ones you listed) is something that you have forced your opponent to do in a neutral situation. You're applying pressure for free. You get to stay safe, while they have to deal with this flying hitbox. I don't believe "hit or bust" is a correct mindset to have for Mega Man's projectiles. If it didn't hit, you just restart and try again later. In the scope of all the horizontal projectiles you're throwing out, CB is a mixup as your third option only behind fsmash in terms of risk. The fact that you can throw out CB while in the air, in addition to b-reversing it (or wave bouncing it if you want to be very technical), helps allow you to keep spacing while throwing out something that can lead to a good situation. Depending on the speed and range of the character you are facing, the distance that is safe to crash bomb varies. Not everyone plays rush downs, even at high level play, and even then it can't be completely disrespected, because it's a mixup.

Explosion:
A decently healthy shield will take 14% of damage out of 50%. The explosion happens without you having to do anything, allowing you to tack on more pressure on your opponent's defensive option, punish a dodge, or reposition. You don't need to approach to take advantage of the situation, you can just enjoy the benefit and keep playing how you were playing before. Of course, you have the option of approaching, but if you don't, oh well. If your opponent is trying to approach to stick it back to you... well, aren't you zoning them anyway? Furthermore, Mega Man's strongest moves have a ton of end lag that make them super punishable. You can now let them in, throw out a smash, and eat the explosion to cover your end lag. As people get more familiar with the move and its launch angle, they'll likely start following up crash bomb explosions that Mega gets hit by to start a combo on Mega Man. Doesn't eliminate the fact that the risk-reward ratio of throwing out a smash was lowered due to the crash bomb.

My doubles partner has internalized the crash bomb timer so well that he can use it to activate his counter (Greninja). He knows how to crash bomb cancel when he's at low %'s for a kill. Does this make the explosion any less useful against him? Sure. It's not as effective against him than against someone who doesn't have that knowledge. He doesn't shield prematurely or hold shield to risk a shield break. But even with all the knowledge, it still is something you have to deal with. Even if a Mega Man gets stuck with a crash bomb, it's still not a good situation to be in. Acknowledging the crash bomb cancels and the explosion interrupting your smash attacks, you're forced to act, which is never a good thing.

Is it a gimmick? Yes. It's an extra tool that is not necessary, or play a huge part in what makes Mega Man Mega Man. However, it is still useful. Even as the game gets older, it is still a valuable tool in Mega Man's arsenal IMO.

On an aside, I've started to use Skull Barrier to pair with crash bomb in more matchups (even ones where there is nothing to reflect). The skull bombing works extremely well.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

I'll start with the stick:
CB isn't slow. Ice Slasher is slow. CB travels about as fast as a metal blade if memory serves me right. As far as projectiles go, CB is about average. It has no priority, but it's a projectile used at mid-long range; being outprioritized means very little because you're at a safe distance away. Where priority for this move matters is with other projectiles. Any conventional defensive option (the ones you listed) is something that you have forced your opponent to do in a neutral situation. You're applying pressure for free. You get to stay safe, while they have to deal with this flying hitbox. I don't believe "hit or bust" is a correct mindset to have for Mega Man's projectiles. If it didn't hit, you just restart and try again later.

In a situation where I am far away from my opponent (which should not happen often, considering MM is mainly a mid-range zoner) I would rather equip myself with a Metal Blade. The pressure from a manually thrown MB garners quicker and usually better results than CB. In the case where CB is outprioritized by a bigger, farther reaching projectile, that now means YOU are the one getting poked. Not only can I not use CB against rushdowns (MM's greatest weakness IMO) but now I am apparently deterred from using it against projectile characters too. I wouldn't say the pressure applied by CB is free if they get closer to us, having more of the stage to themselves. The only time I think your mindset is correct is against Rosalina and Villager.

In the scope of all the horizontal projectiles you're throwing out, CB is a mixup as your third option only behind fsmash in terms of risk. The fact that you can throw out CB while in the air, in addition to b-reversing it (or wave bouncing it if you want to be very technical), helps allow you to keep spacing while throwing out something that can lead to a good situation. Depending on the speed and range of the character you are facing, the distance that is safe to crash bomb varies. Not everyone plays rush downs, even at high level play, and even then it can't be completely disrespected, because it's a mixup.

If I want to throw out something that leads to a good situation, I'd throw out MB. Assuming I already have MB in my hand and instead want to use something else, then yes, CB would work here. The problem is I can only throw things out horizontally in this situation. A little bit redundant, and it leaves me with a blind spot diagonally. This would be covered by Danger Wrap if I had it. Beware, I have a Metal Blade in hand AND and an anti-air at the same time.

Explosion:
A decently healthy shield will take 14% of damage out of 50%. The explosion happens without you having to do anything, allowing you to tack on more pressure on your opponent's defensive option, punish a dodge, or reposition. You don't need to approach to take advantage of the situation, you can just enjoy the benefit and keep playing how you were playing before. Of course, you have the option of approaching, but if you don't, oh well. If your opponent is trying to approach to stick it back to you... well, aren't you zoning them anyway? Furthermore, Mega Man's strongest moves have a ton of end lag that make them super punishable. You can now let them in, throw out a smash, and eat the explosion to cover your end lag. As people get more familiar with the move and its launch angle, they'll likely start following up crash bomb explosions that Mega gets hit by to start a combo on Mega Man. Doesn't eliminate the fact that the risk-reward ratio of throwing out a smash was lowered due to the crash bomb.

Okay, sure. Assuming you land the hit, you essentially get Neutral Game+ for three seconds. Yes, you can zone them with pellets if they decide to approach with the bomb on their chest. If you successfully zone them and they couldn't get in in time, mission accomplished. You get good damage with a potential follow up. This all happens only if the CB lands, if they decide to approach, and if you successfully zone them. It is risk vs. reward, and it still isn't free. Equipping youself with MB is free.

 

[Locke 06]

I'll say these things, as I'd say this is quickly becoming a "I'd rather do this" because playstyles are different. Which is totally fine.

Equipping yourself with MB is less free positionally than throwing out a crash bomb. You're throwing a metal blade into the ground and picking it up, all while standing still and having no hitboxes flying at your opponent. This vacates a hole in your pressure, which throwing out a crash bomb does not. Furthermore, unless you've mastered item pelleting to the point where it is second nature, your pellet game takes a hit with a metal blade in hand (personally, mine is nowhere near where I want it to be). Depending on the situation, you might want to keep your best pellet game (preferential). If the opponent opts for a defensive option against crash bomb, they are not gaining much stage control unless they're rolling or jumping towards you. They only gain significant stage control if they take the stick. Note that this is the same for throwing out a metal blade at this range, except they can't take the stick. Also, if characters want to reset to neutral by going out of mid-range, crash bomb allows you to keep pressure. The two horizontal projectiles are not redundant, because the reward at mid-long range for CB allows for followups, while metal blade at that range will lead to nothing but damage.

Off the top of my head, I count 12 characters with projectiles with enough non-transcendent priority to go through crash bomb and hit Mega Man with similar range to crash bomb:

Spoiler

- canonball (significant startup), - Clay shot, - gordos, /- Bomb (startup), charged arrow (startup), - aura sphere, / - semi-charged shots - later fruits, - Laser, - Lloid,- later thunder variants,- semi-charged sun salutation

Out of those 13, I see arguments for only 4 that present a problem to semi-smart crash bomb usage. And those problems are the same for using metal blade.

March 17th is coming up. While I think this topic is valuable to discuss, I think a more pressing topic may be plant barrier vs leaf shield.

And for me, I have a hard time with plant barrier's startup and lack of versatility in terms of throwing. So put me down for leaf shield.

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/custom-moveset-project-leaf-plant-poll.394604/

Some people asked for it, so hopefully this will present some progress.

IDK both have their merits, I play more with Leaf Shield but am slowly leaning towards Plant Barrier.

 

[Anomilus]

I think of Plant Barrier and Leaf Shield as Offensive vs. Defensive.

Leaf Shield comes out faster, lasts longer, is a better projectile. It's a smaller, fragile shield however. Plant Barrier comes out slower, smaller duration, and a short toss range. It's a bigger, sturdier shield.

Ultimately one would pull out Leaf Shield for its protection. Getting throws in is a good benefit, but knowing its risks one isn't going to actively pull out Leaf Shield just to get near the opponent (they'll likely end up becoming evasive). Furthermore, Leaf Shield itself isn't an amazing projectile, but it does its job to clear away the opponent's projectiles.

With Plant Barrier, you specifically pull it out because you want to pester your opponent. It's not fast enough to consider for protection despite its size and durability. Instead, you want this for Mega Man's ledge game. Or if any opportunity does arrive, you want it to pester an opponent as they can't easily deal with PB as they might LF.

With Leaf Shield being easier to activate, I can imagine people will be more comfortable with it. But for those who desire additional pressure against the opponent, they may gravitate to Plant Barrier. It's once again a preference issue I believe. I think as a support move, the rest of the moveset should dictate if Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier would work. As I've suggested before, if you prefer Rush Coil, you'll likely enjoy Leaf Shield more. If you prefer Tornado Hold or Beat, you may gravitate to Plant Barrier... perhaps.

 

[mega4000]

I just want this sets: 1322 and 132(1/3). That's what I'm gonna use if I go to evo. (I'm still deciding if I gonna go or not because for me is a very expensive trip). Remember, every tournament will follow after evo, so most of them won't allow to choose moves aside from the ten evo sets. Everytime you force a set that never gets used or never gets good results, you are hurting people around the world by taking a slot that could be very well a set that actually get wins. Its the same reason I'm not agains 1112, but you can't ask me to support something that never ever gets good results.

 

[Zensay]

I like Danger Wrap a lot! I'll take it on a blind pick, and even on some opponents that Crash Bomb would be more useful because I like trapping people more than other things. But I can really appreciate the sphere of influence Crash Bombs gives you. Not having to move yourself closer just to say "Hey don't do that" has its rewards as Locke is trying to say. Sometimes its not even about what the bomb actually does, but rather the fact that your opponent is aware that you can shoot something that far. They can't sit on the other end of the stage safely.

You can walk forward and shoot a metal blade and get the same effect but you had to move closer to do this. I know its pretty much a character width difference but that could mean something. Against certain opponents those few steps you took could have given them enough time to get that much more charge in. Or maybe your just close enough to be in position for them to land an advance in after they've got the read on your range game. Shooting a bomb can also give you the time to safely throw down and pick up a blade, or activate your shield, provided they try to avoid the stick. Someone retreating to the other end of the stage can be followed with a simple bomb that they can't really out run. That's the free pressure part.

Ice Slasher is really good if you bounce it. Much safer than just shooting it out. Being able to bounce it and use it as a tool to return to stage are the real benefits to me when comparing it to the other specials. Well that and it freezes them. You wont be using it as much as the other two side specials but when you do it can be a game changer. It's not as pick up and go as Danger Wrap but I think it has serious merits especially against certain MUs like Marth. DW shotgun is great but pretty risky against someone with that kind of range, and things like Metal Blade already out range him so Crash Bomb isn't as needed to keep pressure. Pretty sure someone else already said that but I'd like to back it up.

Short hop Leaf Shield is pretty good. Throwing Leaf Shield isn't a thing I do often but when I do it's great, and it starts conditioning people to consider shielding from afar for added pressure. It lasts long enough to snag a grab or a roll for extra damage when returning from above. The extra duration gives a more comfortable time frame to try and gimp off stage as well. If I sit at the ledge and they get past the leaves I can just walk forward as they finish rolling and nick them for a grab. I feel like I can use it both on and off stage with some purpose and a decent way to keep them guessing.

Plant Barrier has some nice damage, and I've watched a few videos now of its use in tournament play. I get that it's a great tool to sit at the edge with and just shield provided you've timed it right. That is pretty safe. Potentially you could punish a roll by throwing it if the shield lasts long enough. Or do whatever want, unlike Leaf Shield. Returning to stage, I can also see the benefit of a shorter duration time so you can act out of it sooner with more options. Really that seems to be the benefit of Plant Barrier to me. Besides ledge camping, the shorter duration lets you force a defensive or evasive response from your opponent and then gives you time to react instead of being locked into a grab/metal blade/throw situation to punish.

Do you not benefit from Leaf Shield mix ups still in high level play? If not then Plant Barrier is probably the better overall tool and I just need to get used to the activation and duration.

 

[DanGR]

Remember, every tournament will follow after evo, so most of them won't allow to choose moves aside from the ten evo sets.

What other tournaments besides evo are making its players choose from only 10 sets?

 

[Locke 06]

With Leaf Shield being easier to activate, I can imagine people will be more comfortable with it. But for those who desire additional pressure against the opponent, they may gravitate to Plant Barrier. It's once again a preference issue I believe. I think as a support move, the rest of the moveset should dictate if Leaf Shield or Plant Barrier would work. As I've suggested before, if you prefer Rush Coil, you'll likely enjoy Leaf Shield more. If you prefer Tornado Hold or Beat, you may gravitate to Plant Barrier... perhaps.

This idea of "if you prefer X, you'll likely enjoy Y," I think, holds a lot of water, and thinking of the sets as a whole rather than pieces can help solidify the 10.

Does Plant Barrier go well with Beat? Based on how people have described using it, I would imagine a quicker up-B would be preferable. Due to Leaf Shield's longer shield time and beat's superior distance, I'd think Leaf Shield works better in that set.

On the other hand, I think danger wrap goes very well with Beat, allowing you to throw out something that ascends slowly while you recover.

And when would you take skull barrier and tornado hold? That seems like an odd combination to me.

Out of these 6 13XX's, I would make the following changes:
1311
1312
1323
1322 Tornado Hold & Skull Barrier
13331 Beat & Plant Barrier?
1332

With 5 sets left, Ice Slasher likely should only have 1 set due to its unpopularity. 1213 seems the most optimal, as characters who you want to take Ice Slasher against usually have hard hitting/good range aerials that can edge guard. Beat vs those characters may save you in the beginning, but I think it will get you killed easier than Rush or Tornado Hold. And Tornado Hold gives up distance on recovery. Plant Barrier due to IS' freeze time allows the startup to be worked around and you press the advantage you've gotten from IS.

4 left, 11X2 is the defensive set. As a defensive set, I think Tornado Hold is out of place here. 1112 and 1132 seem fine.

2 left. And with these 2, I'd ask the following:
Is 11X3 or 1131 needed? (leaning towards no, even though I enjoy 1131)
What about the 2 that were crossed off?
Is hyper bomb too experimental? There were motions for 33XX sets.
Is shadow blade too experimental? (Is the NinjaLink set worth putting on?)


There's my analysis of the 10. I have very little experience or knowledge with shadow blade, hyper bomb, and beat/tornado hold with danger wrap, so I just left those alone for the most part.

 

[Anomilus]

Does Plant Barrier go well with Beat? Based on how people have described using it, I would imagine a quicker up-B would be preferable. Due to Leaf Shield's longer shield time and beat's superior distance, I'd think Leaf Shield works better in that set.

On the other hand, I think danger wrap goes very well with Beat, allowing you to throw out something that ascends slowly while you recover.

And when would you take skull barrier and tornado hold? That seems like an odd combination to me.

I tend to gravitate to offensive-minded thinking, so I was actually thinking about activating PB on the stage and leaping off freely to mess with the opponent. Since it has a shorter duration, I figured why not take advantage of Beat's recovery.

Oh, and SkB + TH? I don't actively promote that combination. Those I like for their separate features. Again, I'm offensive-minded, so I enjoy TH's application as stage control and ledge tactics (seriously, dropping Tornado Holds right over the ledge is really nice, especially since you can turn Mega Man around after activating it). I promote SkB because I also promote Shadow Blade and Crash Bomb and the resulting synergies. I would opt for Rush or Beat, but they're primarily recovery tools with RC also being an escape option on stage.