Critique Super Smash Bros.

[Rocketjay8]

Custom moves is hardly dev time. And people are only being nitpicky based off speaking from the "Smash Ultimate" perspective, which custom moves would favor a "smaller roster."

This is another reason the "Ultimate" and Deluxe trope needs to go.

How would you know? Have you ever coded a game before?

 

[UserKev]

How would you know? Have you ever coded a game before?

A smaller roster = less load. Also, where exactly can development be spent elsewhere? I'm really intrigued because I don't see anything other than features that needs to be worked on again.

Honestly, I'm convinced Smash is becoming a more hollow game every new installment everyday.

 

[Rocketjay8]

A smaller roster = less load. Also, where exactly can development be spent elsewhere? I'm really intrigued because I don't see anything other than features that needs to be worked on again.

Honestly, I'm convinced Smash is becoming a more hollow game every new installment everyday.

If you don't have any experience in coding or making a video game, how can you be so sure about how easy it is to put in custom moves? You yourself said how easy it was to code in custom moves. It comes off as accusing the developers as lazy.

 

[UserKev]

If you don't have any experience in coding or making a video game, how can you be so sure about how easy it is to put in custom moves? You yourself said how easy it was to code in custom moves. It comes off as accusing the developers as lazy.

Eh? Huh? I never stated coding was easy. I nothing about it. All I know is custom move development time is more friendly to a smaller roster. Not the (Smash Ultimate roster) perspective everyone loves to cling to.

I never stated devs are lazy. Maybe I did mistakenly and didn't realize it, but it seems everyone loves to mention saving the competition, which is a straight downward spiral for Smash.

 

[StrangeKitten]

View attachment 372917

Eh? Huh? I never stated coding was easy. I nothing about it. All I know is custom move development time is more friendly to a smaller roster. Not the (Smash Ultimate roster) perspective everyone loves to cling to.

I never stated devs are lazy. Maybe I did mistakenly and didn't realize it, but it seems everyone loves to mention saving the competition, which is a straight downward spiral for Smash.

It comes off like you're saying custom moves would take almost no dev time at all. We don't really have a way of knowing, but I'd think they'd take a chunk of time. You have to model new assets in many cases, or alter copies of the assets you've made. You've gotta test the moves against other moves, items, etc. to make sure they interact in the ways you want, and try to catch any bugs. It's a process they'd have to do multiple times for every character, which sounds at least a little lengthy to me. If they tried to balance custom moves competitively in the hopes that they'd be better-received the second time around, that's even more attention they'd have to give them. Furthermore, it would lengthen the process of making DLC fighters, which I suspect was a big factor as to why the dev team decided to stop doing them. If they don't do them for DLC fighters, they run into the issue that mains of DLC characters will lack something all the other characters get. And if you feel like it would be worth it because you like custom moves, that's fine. I like them too, I just like a lot of the other things Smash has to offer better. In an ideal scenario, we'd have plenty of characters (we disagree on this because I'd like to see as many return as possible), classic mode, individual target tests, a boss rush mode, an adventure mode at least along the lines of Melee's, an even better Stage Builder, a balanced roster, a good amount of DLC characters, etc etc and have custom moves for every character. I'd just be surprised if we ever get a Smash game that had the dev time to nail all these things.

I'd also like to vouch for Stage Builder. I totally get why you don't like it, as it seemed awful and frustrating when I tried building anything myself. But I've since filled up two accounts' worth of stages made by other people. Stages that are as close to competitively viable as possible, since I use CPUs for practice. It helps keep long sessions interesting, as I have many more competitive-friendly stages I can practice on beyond the ones in the default game. I know I'm one of few who has found a good use for the feature, and I agree they aren't the prettiest. But they're fun, and I like the variety of layouts I can play around with.

Here's an example of the kinds of custom stages I was able to find:

Spoiler: Spoiler'd cuz this post is already long lol

 

[Rocketjay8]

View attachment 372917

Eh? Huh? I never stated coding was easy. I nothing about it. All I know is custom move development time is more friendly to a smaller roster. Not the (Smash Ultimate roster) perspective everyone loves to cling to.

I never stated devs are lazy. Maybe I did mistakenly and didn't realize it, but it seems everyone loves to mention saving the competition, which is a straight downward spiral for Smash.

Yeah, sorry about that. It's just that as StrangeKitten pointed out it comes off as assuming that custom moves have no dev time. When in reality it takes alot of resources to make them balanced. Remember how much of a disaster trip sapling was on villiger in 4?

Also, yeah I do realise that you didn't mean to come off as accusing the devs as lazy. It's just that I seen the lazy devs Bs be used by entitled gamers that have no idea of how to make a video game.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Final Smashes are horribly, horribly designed - I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here mind you, but a casual one. At their best they turn the game into a boring chase as soon as a character gets the Smash Ball, with no real way to follow up or punish if you manage to outwit the FS holder into using their move at the wrong time, and at their worst they're basically just an instant KO button you can use as soon as you've got the power. I will say that I do like the Smash Ball itself from a gameplay perspective though, just this ominous floating orb that carelessly hovers into hard to reach spots on the stage, forcing everyone to drop what they're doing and fight over it, incentivizes movement and changes the rules of the game for a short bit - but even then they ruined that with the rolling variant in Ultimate.

 

[fogbadge]

Final Smashes are horribly, horribly designed - I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here mind you, but a casual one. At their best they turn the game into a boring chase as soon as a character gets the Smash Ball, with no real way to follow up or punish if you manage to outwit the FS holder into using their move at the wrong time, and at their worst they're basically just an instant KO button you can use as soon as you've got the power. I will say that I do like the Smash Ball itself from a gameplay perspective though, just this ominous floating orb that carelessly hovers into hard to reach spots on the stage, forcing everyone to drop what they're doing and fight over it, incentivizes movement and changes the rules of the game for a short bit - but even then they ruined that with the rolling variant in Ultimate.

what would you know about casual smashers? you’re hard wired to be a competitive player I don’t think you know what the others find fun

 

[Eremurus]

what would you know about casual smashers? you’re hard wired to be a competitive player I don’t think you know what the others find fun

You people really will argue over anything on Derpboards.

 

[Quillion]

Final Smashes are horribly, horribly designed - I'm not talking from a competitive perspective here mind you, but a casual one. At their best they turn the game into a boring chase as soon as a character gets the Smash Ball, with no real way to follow up or punish if you manage to outwit the FS holder into using their move at the wrong time, and at their worst they're basically just an instant KO button you can use as soon as you've got the power. I will say that I do like the Smash Ball itself from a gameplay perspective though, just this ominous floating orb that carelessly hovers into hard to reach spots on the stage, forcing everyone to drop what they're doing and fight over it, incentivizes movement and changes the rules of the game for a short bit - but even then they ruined that with the rolling variant in Ultimate.

I know it's a long shot, but I wouldn't mind FSs being retired outright for smaller-scale Super moves.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I do think Smash reveal hype culture is unsustainable - not just in the sense of "it will just cause discourse" or "it's impossible to live up to", but also that it is eventually gonna slowly crumble into dust. People will inevitably wise up to the more shady parts of how Smash is marketed, the standards for popular fan picks will keep changing, (see: people being shocked by the absence of former "meme pick" Master Chief in FP2) diehard fans will grow too old to engage in hype, more promo picks will cheapen the brand to many, more (hopefully-)unintentionally-encouraged toxic discourse will make people (very justifiably) terrified of becoming emotionally invested in Smash, and the roster will eventually balloon to the point where it doesn't mean a thing anymore. Hell, some of those I already am getting a bit of a general air for, even if that could be confirmation bias on my part.

 

[Perkilator]

Quoting from another thread:

Musically speaking, I think one of SSBU’s faults was focusing way too much on being fast-paced for the sake of the pace of the gameplay. If you were going to do that, I think you should’ve also balanced it with the overall tone of the song you’re remixing. This fan remix of Fourside is a great example of balancing faithfulness with a fast pace.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I do think Smash reveal hype culture is unsustainable - not just in the sense of "it will just cause discourse" or "it's impossible to live up to", but also that it is eventually gonna slowly crumble into dust. People will inevitably wise up to the more shady parts of how Smash is marketed, the standards for popular fan picks will keep changing, (see: people being shocked by the absence of former "meme pick" Master Chief in FP2) diehard fans will grow too old to engage in hype, more promo picks will cheapen the brand to many, more (hopefully-)unintentionally-encouraged toxic discourse will make people (very justifiably) terrified of becoming emotionally invested in Smash, and the roster will eventually balloon to the point where it doesn't mean a thing anymore. Hell, some of those I already am getting a bit of a general air for, even if that could be confirmation bias on my part.

One thing I think I forgot to mention - or at least emphasise - in this post is that I think Smash hype won't simply have a straw that breaks the camel's back like some kind of GigaCorrin, but rather that it will just slowly fade without anyone noticing, and people will only realise once a string of Waluigis and Doomguys get added in rapid succession, nobody cares, and people ask "Hey, remember when Smash was this big event?"

 

[Quillion]

people will only realise once a string of Waluigis and Doomguys get added in rapid succession, nobody cares, and people ask "Hey, remember when Smash was this big event?"

On one hand, that feels like what happened to E3.

On the other hand, I think Smash will need some more serious competitors so that the vidya crossover industry will get to that stage. E3 became irrelevant mainly because Nintendo realized they can have semi-regular reveal events any time of year and many other companies followed their lead.

 

[Oracle Link]

Honestly i think if sakurai really wants to see Everyone (atleast on the nintendo side) Happy Series Spinoffs would be great and could be used to reimplement elements from those into normal smash!

Also WHY isnt Bandana waddle dee in smash as a 3d Model? Just put him in the background during dededes Final Smash!

 

[The Smash Nerd II.0.]

Honestly i think if sakurai really wants to see Everyone (atleast on the nintendo side) Happy Series Spinoffs would be great and could be used to reimplement elements from those into normal smash!

Also WHY isnt Bandana waddle dee in smash as a 3d Model? Just put him in the background during dededes Final Smash!

Or at least make him playable.

 

[Oracle Link]

Or at least make him playable.

I know but atleast you could argue Somewhat (Albeit weakly) Against him in ultimate but him not having a 3d Model is inexcusable!

 

[UserKev]

I know it's a long shot, but I wouldn't mind FSs being retired outright for smaller-scale Super moves.

This is what I've been saying for several months now. Final Smashes don't work anymore. I know it's all opinion based but I really feel like Final Smashes are a deadbeat concept now, Brawl's Final Smashes having age terribly.

 

[MasterCheef]

Not having , Master Chief , is a much bigger missed opportunity , than the opportunity of getting , Hero , Joker & Sephiroth , combined

 

[UserKev]

Big stages are mostly pointless. And partially a slug. Hyrule Temple was a special, which doesn't need to be seen again. And is a trend that definitely shouldn't continue.

Great Cave Offense is visually fun, but too map-y. Palutena's Temple is very fall-y and so unpromising.

 

[FazDude]

I honestly don't mind like, one or two overly big stages per game - I don't hate the idea, but rather the fact that the layouts of these kinds of stages are quite trash, Hyrule Temple being the exception.

 

[fogbadge]

Big stages are mostly pointless. And partially a slug. Hyrule Temple was a special, which doesn't need to be seen again. And is a trend that definitely shouldn't continue.

Great Cave Offense is visually fun, but too map-y. Palutena's Temple is very fall-y and so unpromising.

i very much agree

 

[Oracle Link]

I honestly don't mind like, one or two overly big stages per game - I don't hate the idea, but rather the fact that the layouts of these kinds of stages are quite trash, Hyrule Temple being the exception.

I think one issue is also that a lot of big stages just slap some plattforms together best example of this is new Pork i would love to see a New Pork Remake! As i love that location!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't mind the big stages. But when it's the only stage you can fight a character on in Classic? That's when it becomes very annoying. It's chaotic fun otherwise, and at least it's a bit more justified for Events/Spirit Matches, etc. Since those have themes. Albeit, the latest Classic is a bit more themed, but due to that, it's somewhat easier to avoid it.

 

[Pupp135]

Big stages are kind of a weird situation for me. I normally don’t play them, but I think they can be fun in their own right. My least favorite one is Palutena’s Temple because it feels much easier to stall/drag out matches on that stage compared to 75m or Great Cave Offensive, and I feel like you can fit 20 fighters without it feeling cramped (this ties back to the stalling/ dragging out aspect).

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Big stages really shine when you stage morph them into a smaller stage like WarioWare with 8 players.

 

[volbound1700]

Single Player hasn't been great since Brawl. Ironically, I prefer a more robust version of Melee's adventure mode and it could be implemented better. Something you can run through in 3-4 hours but has replayability.

I never owned Smash 4 on Gameboy but the solo mode on it sounded like a winner and should have been included in Ultimate.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I think that this game trying to simplifying the controls for newcomers, it ends up complicating the controls unnecessary.

For example, shorthopping, why is it so strick for me to perform a simple action that I didn't have any problems with in smash 4? And no the shortcut of pressing too jump buttons is not the solution.

 

[A_Kae]

I think that this game trying to simplifying the controls for newcomers, it ends up complicating the controls unnecessary.

For example, shorthopping, why is it so strick for me to perform a simple action that I didn't have any problems with in smash 4? And no the shortcut of pressing too jump buttons is not the solution.

yeah, short hops are weirdly hard in ult for how much of core mechanic they are.

Ideally, we'd have an option for dedicated buttons for short hops and full hops, in addition to the current combined jump button (default controls could be jump and short hop instead of two jump buttons). It's so bizarre to me that this never happened especially when the "2 jump buttons together" shortcut was added in a patch even.

Maybe jumpsquats could be lengthened as well? 3f has never felt quite right to me, personally, 4f might be better (the "standard" in smash 4 was 5, and the fastest were 4), but that's something with far-reaching consequences.

 

[volbound1700]

Actually, playing Smash Ultimate, today, I will give you my biggest critique.

The damn "READY TO FIGHT" Banner that appears after every match and blocks you from finding the character markers to pick a new character. It is annoying as heck. I can't describe how many times that I have fat fingered and entered a match before we were ready. It does this for AI characters especially so switching to human player is a headache. Also if you pick the wrong player. It is unneeded.

 

[Quillion]

yeah, short hops are weirdly hard in ult for how much of core mechanic they are.

Ideally, we'd have an option for dedicated buttons for short hops and full hops, in addition to the current combined jump button (default controls could be jump and short hop instead of two jump buttons). It's so bizarre to me that this never happened especially when the "2 jump buttons together" shortcut was added in a patch even.

Maybe jumpsquats could be lengthened as well? 3f has never felt quite right to me, personally, 4f might be better (the "standard" in smash 4 was 5, and the fastest were 4), but that's something with far-reaching consequences.

Totally agree that 4 or 5 frames should be universally standard for jumpsquats. Even in Melee, it's much easier to sh with Falco than with Fox.

Also, I think we should sacrifice one of the jump buttons for a new mechanic, but I've been saying that repeatedly.

 

[fogbadge]

Actually, playing Smash Ultimate, today, I will give you my biggest critique.

The damn "READY TO FIGHT" Banner that appears after every match and blocks you from finding the character markers to pick a new character. It is annoying as heck. I can't describe how many times that I have fat fingered and entered a match before we were ready. It does this for AI characters especially so switching to human player is a headache. Also if you pick the wrong player. It is unneeded.

you know you can press B to bring the marker to you

 

[Perkilator]

Regarding stages:

You know what? In hindsight, I think it would've been better to trade Stage Morph for the return of stage in the Smash series*, including skins based off previous versions of Battlefield and Final Destination.

*with the appropriate changes made to stages like Pac-Maze and Pyrosphere, of course.

 

[Lenidem]

I totally agree. I never used Stage Morph, not even once, and having missed Smash for Wii U and Brawl, I would have loved to play their exclusive stages.

 

[Oracle Link]

I would like stage morph if for example i beat one enemy and than the stage morph and another enemy appears that would be cool!

 

[Good Night !]

I must admit. I REALLY miss the times where new characters were not announced in advance. I remember Melee and Brawl and the hype I got everytime I had the chances to unlock a new character. The black silhouette, the joy of seeing that my favorite Pokemon at the time (Mewtwo) was actually playable. The incomprehension I had when I saw Mr. Game and Watch for the first time.

I like the trailer announcement, they're all good. But the things is that time passed between character trailers and when I get to play the game. So I'm not as hyped as I was when I discover all the newcomers in game.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I must admit. I REALLY miss the times where new characters were not announced in advance. I remember Melee and Brawl and the hype I got everytime I had the chances to unlock a new character. The black silhouette, the joy of seeing that my favorite Pokemon at the time (Mewtwo) was actually playable. The incomprehension I had when I saw Mr. Game and Watch for the first time.

I like the trailer announcement, they're all good. But the things is that time passed between character trailers and when I get to play the game. So I'm not as hyped as I was when I discover all the newcomers in game.

I feel like datamines are mostly to blame for why we don't see stuff like this anymore. It is fun to discover something in a game for the first time, but when it comes to playable characters especially, that ****'ll be on the web within MINUTES of the game's release, if not before since most AAA games break street date these days.

 

[fogbadge]

I must admit. I REALLY miss the times where new characters were not announced in advance. I remember Melee and Brawl and the hype I got everytime I had the chances to unlock a new character. The black silhouette, the joy of seeing that my favorite Pokemon at the time (Mewtwo) was actually playable. The incomprehension I had when I saw Mr. Game and Watch for the first time.

I like the trailer announcement, they're all good. But the things is that time passed between character trailers and when I get to play the game. So I'm not as hyped as I was when I discover all the newcomers in game.

they were announced in advance before it came over here

 

[Good Night !]

they were announced in advance before it came over here

Internet wasn't as big in my country than it was in USA at the time (still not actually). I know the Brawl newcomers were announced in the Smash Bros Dojo. But it was more easy to miss it, at least for us.

 

[fogbadge]

Internet wasn't as big in my country than it was in USA at the time (still not actually). I know the Brawl newcomers were announced in the Smash Bros Dojo. But it was more easy to miss it, at least for us.

well that’s cause you didn’t have as long to wait