Critique Super Smash Bros.

[fogbadge]

i think they could stand to be a bit more consistent from a design angle. they put in a lot of effort to make some characters feel like they do in their own games and others dont feel like they had that at all. of course theres the argument of practicality and what could actually be done in smash but im not sure thats something on the team's minds

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Namco-era Smash's attempts to appeal to a competitive audience, while usually well-intentioned, often feel like they're based directly on negative fandom stereotypes and not legitimate research. For Glory was literally Final Destination only (a stage associated with competitive play by outsiders but controversial within it), Omega/Battlefield forms don't account for the many other stages played competitively, there's no option to choose Smashville, PS2, Kalos, or other such stages specifically on Quickplay - only FD and BF - and Hazards Off removes completely fine and generally non-controversial elements like Randall and the movement of Smashville's platform.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Omega/Battlefield forms don't account for the many other stages played competitively

To be fair you can't just instantly make Smashville/Pokemon Stadium forms of every single stage. The Small Battlefield update for example didn't come with SBF versions of any other stage besides itself because they'd have to do more than just remove the BF forms' top platform.

And honestly I wish they didn't bother. Having to make alternate versions of 100+ preexisting stages means less time to make all-new stages, and competitive players default to the real BF and FD rather than any stage's BF/Omega form.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

To be fair you can't just instantly make Smashville/Pokemon Stadium forms of every single stage. The Small Battlefield update for example didn't come with SBF versions of any other stage besides itself because they'd have to do more than just remove the BF forms' top platform.

And honestly I wish they didn't bother. Having to make alternate versions of 100+ preexisting stages means less time to make all-new stages, and competitive players default to the real BF and FD rather than any stage's BF/Omega form.

I more so was implying the alternate would be something like Legacy TE's competitive stage reskins, where each casual stage has a competitive stage they're tied to as a reskin - so Kongo Falls has a Wario Land reskin, Lylat Cruise has an FD reskin, Summit has a Bowser's Castle reskin, so on.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I more so was implying the alternate would be something like Legacy TE's competitive stage reskins, where each casual stage has a competitive stage they're tied to as a reskin - so Kongo Falls has a Wario Land reskin, Lylat Cruise has an FD reskin, Summit has a Bowser's Castle reskin, so on.

I just think it's a drain on resources to have to make alternate forms like this, period. This combined with having to remodel all those Melee/Brawl/3DS stages not only limited what new stages they could make in base, but also what fighters-newcomers from new series would require new stages, and they aren't doing Marth on Temple again.

 

[fogbadge]

Summit has a Bowser's Castle reskin, so on.

i dont see how that works at all

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

i dont see how that works at all

PM Bowser's Castle is basicallly just a flatter Battlefield

 

[fogbadge]

PM Bowser's Castle is basicallly just a flatter Battlefield

I don’t see what that’s got to do with turning summit into bowsers castle

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I don’t see what that’s got to do with turning summit into bowsers castle

They used Summit's visual assets to make a stage that plays like Bowser's Castle, just like how an Omega form would use Summit's visual assets to make a stage that plays like Final Destination

 

[fogbadge]

They used Summit's visual assets to make a stage that plays like Bowser's Castle, just like how an Omega form would use Summit's visual assets to make a stage that plays like Final Destination

Ok but that’s not a reskin. A reskin would just be a changing of textures like with boxing ring and dream land

 

[UserKev]

Lucario is very poorly executed that makes Ganondorf's treatment a luxury. And Aura gimmick focus makes him a bland pick. For one, Lucario's run animation should have replicated from the movie. I don't know what tf Sakurai was smoking when he gave Lucario that stiff run animation. There's no excuse to suggest otherwise when Mega Man has it. Lucario should have gotten Bullet Punch, Metal Claw, Bone Club and even Counter.

Lucario far deserved a revamp, having been in since freakin' Brawl.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

I'm gonna keep this one brief since it's not a topic I'm that professed in, but I feel that Namco Smash doesn't really want to have platforming fighting characters if that makes sense? HAL era Smash - including Brawl - was more on the side of "find the best traits and abilities from these characters, cut out the gimmicky BS and unadaptable game mechanics to make a proper, expressive platform fighting character" but nowadays it seems like they're aiming more for "play Kingdom Hearts to fight someone who's playing Mega Man". Generally I find NPCs, villains, pacifist, and early-8-bit characters have adapted way better to Smash nowadays than protags of action games because creative liberties need to be taken and junk needs to be cut out. A lot of characters I'd otherwise really want in Smash have kinda been tarnished by this approach IMO - Crash Bandicoot is one of my favourite game series of all time, but I don't really want Crash in Smash because they'd just port over his boring powers from Crash 3 and call it a day instead of creating original stuff and taking from more obscure games.

Sorry to bring QUBE Every-Sun Scuffle into this again, but the fact that NASB's characters are all made to be watched instead of played - combined with the fact that very few are known for fighting or having powers - really draws me to it because it means what gimmicks there will be if any will be 100% intended for gameplay first like Rivals' characters and not hollow fanservice.

 

[fogbadge]

Lucario is very poorly executed that makes Ganondorf's treatment a luxury. And Aura gimmick focus makes him a bland pick. For one, Lucario's run animation should have replicated from the movie. I don't know what tf Sakurai was smoking when he gave Lucario that stiff run animation. There's no excuse to suggest otherwise when Mega Man has it. Lucario should have gotten Bullet Punch, Metal Claw, Bone Club and even Counter.

Lucario far deserved a revamp, having been in since freakin' Brawl.

it does feel odd that his counter attack is double team as opposed to an actual counter

 

[StrangeKitten]

it does feel odd that his counter attack is double team as opposed to an actual counter

Riolu learns Counter very early on. Boggles the mind why it got excluded in favor of Double Team, tbh.

 

[fogbadge]

Riolu learns Counter very early on. Boggles the mind why it got excluded in favor of Double Team, tbh.

sometimes im not sure sakurai plays pokemon games

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

it does feel odd that his counter attack is double team as opposed to an actual counter

Riolu learns Counter very early on. Boggles the mind why it got excluded in favor of Double Team, tbh.

Visual variety. Simple as.

 

[fogbadge]

Visual variety. Simple as.

hmm other aspects of the game would make me question this

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Let's talk about Banjo and Sephiroth

Not from a game design perspective per say, but a roster and marketing perspective.

Banjo was clearly chosen as a "gift to the fans", he's not a big name seller like Master Chief or Marcus Fenix, he really only appeals to people grew up on N64 and the few 360 kids who stumbled across his game on the Xbox Marketplace, but the smaller, more hardcore Smash fandom is filled with that prior demographic and thus was all about Banjo at the time - you could consider that a bit of a selfless gesture really, but as Ultimate's DLC cycle went on it started to feel like a bit more of a selfless... jester for reasons I'll go into soon

Sephiroth, on the other hand, was clearly meant to draw people to Smash, or encourage people who hadn't played since Steve's release to come back for a week or two - nobody really discussed Sephiroth in Smash circles and most hardcore fans were still finding Cloud's inclusion hard to grasp. This, in combination with Banjo, would be fine, good even, on it's own if it weren't for... you know who.

The Square Enix rep of choice in the Smash fandom has always been Geno - a side character from Super Mario RPG, a late SNES game released even after the N64's debut - with his longstanding popularity likely owing to a lot of people not knowing he's owned by Square. Perhaps he does lie a little more niche than Banjo because of that first factor, but the Banjo-to-Geno popularity gap is nowhere near as big as the Master Chief-to-Banjo popularity gap so even though I hate this thing's presumably-hand-shaped guts and the hype around him, it's easy to understand why people would expect Geno to follow Banjo and not a second Final Fantasy rep - despite Sephiroth being objectively more marketable and worthy of a "celebration of gaming history" like Sakurai claimed Smash to be like in Byleth's presentation. Geno getting a Mii costume and Spirit is another contradictory factor because that means he was still prioritised in negotiations over the likes of Tomb Raider, Chrono Trigger, Bubble Bobble, and... oh yeah... the indisputable most culturally significant video game ever made.

And this kinda gets me to my point, the reason Smash speculation can be so toxic is because the game itself isn't giving consistency or a clear direction for roster picks, but also tries to pretend it does have one with the whole "celebration of history" thing, which is a problem when you're dealing with a fandom that relies on patterns - not to stereotype or generalise (nor to accuse Nintendo of ableism), but a lot of the diehard fandom is autistic teenagers, people who tend to need routine and consistency - and that lack of consistency, maybe "heavy compromise" would be a more neutral term, applies to almost every aspect of the series as a whole, from Schrödinger's wavedash; to online mode forcing you to play others' rulesets; to old movesets being kept while new movesets take a worse different direction; to the whole "tighten the gap between casual and competitive" BS - ultimately when you try to please everyone, you please nobody. Call it a "celebration of gaming history" and the impact of Halo is invalidated by nostalgic gushing for four-games-and-a-plane-racer Banjo-Kazooie, call it a "celebration of fandom" and the fans' collective love for Geno is usurped by the money they can get from Sephiroth.

Also, don't even get me started on how Everyone is Here falls into this.

 

[fogbadge]

Let's talk about Banjo and Sephiroth

Not from a game design perspective per say, but a roster and marketing perspective.

Banjo was clearly chosen as a "gift to the fans", he's not a big name seller like Master Chief or Marcus Fenix, he really only appeals to people grew up on N64 and the few 360 kids who stumbled across his game on the Xbox Marketplace, but the smaller, more hardcore Smash fandom is filled with that prior demographic and thus was all about Banjo at the time - you could consider that a bit of a selfless gesture really, but as Ultimate's DLC cycle went on it started to feel like a bit more of a selfless... jester for reasons I'll go into soon

Sephiroth, on the other hand, was clearly meant to draw people to Smash, or encourage people who hadn't played since Steve's release to come back for a week or two - nobody really discussed Sephiroth in Smash circles and most hardcore fans were still finding Cloud's inclusion hard to grasp. This, in combination with Banjo, would be fine, good even, on it's own if it weren't for... you know who.

The Square Enix rep of choice in the Smash fandom has always been Geno - a side character from Super Mario RPG, a late SNES game released even after the N64's debut - with his longstanding popularity likely owing to a lot of people not knowing he's owned by Square. Perhaps he does lie a little more niche than Banjo because of that first factor, but the Banjo-to-Geno popularity gap is nowhere near as big as the Master Chief-to-Banjo popularity gap so even though I hate this thing's presumably-hand-shaped guts and the hype around him, it's easy to understand why people would expect Geno to follow Banjo and not a second Final Fantasy rep - despite Sephiroth being objectively more marketable and worthy of a "celebration of gaming history" like Sakurai claimed Smash to be like in Byleth's presentation. Geno getting a Mii costume and Spirit is another contradictory factor because that means he was still prioritised in negotiations over the likes of Tomb Raider, Chrono Trigger, Bubble Bobble, and... oh yeah... the indisputable most culturally significant video game ever made.

And this kinda gets me to my point, the reason Smash speculation can be so toxic is because the game itself isn't giving consistency or a clear direction for roster picks, but also tries to pretend it does have one with the whole "celebration of history" thing, which is a problem when you're dealing with a fandom that relies on patterns - not to stereotype or generalise (nor to accuse Nintendo of ableism), but a lot of the diehard fandom is autistic teenagers, people who tend to need routine and consistency - and that lack of consistency, maybe "heavy compromise" would be a more neutral term, applies to almost every aspect of the series as a whole, from Schrödinger's wavedash; to online mode forcing you to play others' rulesets; to old movesets being kept while new movesets take a worse different direction; to the whole "tighten the gap between casual and competitive" BS - ultimately when you try to please everyone, you please nobody. Call it a "celebration of gaming history" and the impact of Halo is invalidated by nostalgic gushing for four-games-and-a-plane-racer Banjo-Kazooie, call it a "celebration of fandom" and the fans' collective love for Geno is usurped by the money they can get from Sephiroth.

Also, don't even get me started on how Everyone is Here falls into this.

i think youre over looking several factors. like the legal issues certain characters may have, the fact that a characters over all popularity and popularity for smash arent always the same and the fact that no one on the smash team said that smash was now a "celebration of gaming" thats just a fan coined term that doesnt stand up to scrutiny and the fact that sakurai has made it clear that fan demand is not the sole factor for character inclusion. more to the point gaming history is all of gaming not just the significant parts. if the game is to be a celebration of gaming history then any character would count because any character is part of gaming history.

also i find youre idea of autistic people very off. we autistics may like routine and consistency but if we're gaming fans then we'll be used to games doing new things and now amount. youre also over looking the social aspect of autism which make it hard for us to do things like play online and would likely to stick to the offline mode and their preferred rulesets. so dont you DARE use us as a reason for why smash is going badly

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

i think youre over looking several factors. like the legal issues certain characters may have, the fact that a characters over all popularity and popularity for smash arent always the same and the fact that no one on the smash team said that smash was now a "celebration of gaming" thats just a fan coined term that doesnt stand up to scrutiny and the fact that sakurai has made it clear that fan demand is not the sole factor for character inclusion. more to the point gaming history is all of gaming not just the significant parts. if the game is to be a celebration of gaming history then any character would count because any character is part of gaming history.

also i find youre idea of autistic people very off. we autistics may like routine and consistency but if we're gaming fans then we'll be used to games doing new things and now amount. youre also over looking the social aspect of autism which make it hard for us to do things like play online and would likely to stick to the offline mode and their preferred rulesets. so dont you DARE use us as a reason for why smash is going badly

Sakurai has literally said "Smash is like a celebration of gaming history", in Byleth's presentation specifically

Also, I am autisitic myself - and I'm also not saying autistic people are why Smash is going badly, I'm moreso saying that Smash is going badly because they're not considering or being open to their audience - and that autism may be a cause for the obsession with pattern-spotting in Smash fandom.

 

[fogbadge]

Sakurai has literally said "Smash is like a celebration of gaming history", in Byleth's presentation specifically

Also, I am autisitic myself - and I'm also not saying autistic people are why Smash is going badly, I'm moreso saying that Smash is going badly because they're not considering or being open to their audience - and that autism may be a cause for the obsession with pattern-spotting in Smash fandom.

and i told you that gaming history is actually a broad term that all of gaming not just the important stuff. the very fact that he said this next to byleth illustrates this who cannot make the claim of being significant to history on the level you seem to think it is

the very fact that the next autistic person to come along said that all those points were rubbish surely proves that those concerns arent held by all of us.

the actual problem seems to be that you take sakurai at face value

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

and i told you that gaming history is actually a broad term that all of gaming not just the important stuff. the very fact that he said this next to byleth illustrates this who cannot make the claim of being significant to history on the level you seem to think it is

the very fact that the next autistic person to come along said that all those points were rubbish surely proves that those concerns arent held by all of us.

the actual problem seems to be that you take sakurai at face value

When I say "gaming history" I mean "historically significant games", not just "games".

I never said these concerns are held by all - or even most - autistic people. I just proposed autism as a possible explanation for the Smash fandom's love for patterns and need for leaks/pre-empting surprises.

Also, yeah, duh, of course I take Sakurai at face value - he's not a friend, he's a public figure. Public figures don't "give signs" or imply things, they should ideally tell people exactly what they mean.

 

[fogbadge]

When I say "gaming history" I mean "historically significant games", not just "games".

I never said these concerns are held by all - or even most - autistic people. I just proposed autism as a possible explanation for the Smash fandom's love for patterns and need for leaks/pre-empting surprises.

Also, yeah, duh, of course I take Sakurai at face value - he's not a friend, he's a public figure. Public figures don't "give signs" or imply things, they should ideally tell people exactly what they mean.

that’s the point isn’t it. You are using it to mean significant points in gaming history but sakurai never did. You’re failing to note that sakurais views may not be the same

that’s equally rude. Assuming people must be certain ways because of their behaviour

here’s the thing, when a public figure says something that is later contradicted by their actions maybe don’t take what they say at face value. Sakurai made reference to the too many swords with byleth before going on to add steve, sephiroth, pyra and mythra

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

that’s the point isn’t it. You are using it to mean significant points in gaming history but sakurai never did. You’re failing to note that sakurais views may not be the same

that’s equally rude. Assuming people must be certain ways because of their behaviour

here’s the thing, when a public figure says something that is later contradicted by their actions maybe don’t take what they say at face value. Sakurai made reference to the too many swords with byleth before going on to add steve, sephiroth, pyra and mythra

"Celebration of gaming history" implies a celebration of important moments in gaming history, not just anything in gaming history. Let's say a museum claimed to be a "celebration of American history" and it only had 5 elections documented, the moon landing is completely absent; and 60 landmark McDonald's openings were referenced - biggest McDonald's, 100th McDonald's, longest-lasting McDonald's, first international McDonald's, first millitary McDonald's, first in-store McDonald's, so on. Those McDonald'ses are technically part of American history, but not major parts.

I never said that I assume all autistic people act certain ways - it's a fact that autistic people tend to like patterns and dislike surprises. Acknowledging differences and how they effect the people who have them is not discrimination.

Well then, they shouldn't say the thing they're gonna contradict - especially since FP2 was likely planned out at that point!

 

[Dinoman96]

Honestly if Geno was THAT popular on the Smash ballot, then I do think they probably would of at least tried to put him in. It's extremely telling to me that across both Smash 4 and Ultimate, he was passed over for not one, not two, but THREE other SE characters, FOUR if you want to count Sora even though he's The Mouse's property. Meanwhile, Banjo & Kazooie were the first ever Microsoft owned characters in Smash, beating out considerably more popular choices like Master Chief and Minecraft Steve.

Geno only getting a spirit and Mii outfit just tells me that while he was popular, he was only popular enough to get the nod, not enough to be made playable. He's more comparable to say, Isaac, Krystal, etc in that regard, and also you know, has the extra bonus problem of not even being first party, instead owned by another big company with their own slew of iconic and popular characters. were just in a league of their own.

When you consider that alot of the Geno fan movement actually did die out during the period of the Smash ballot, and wouldn't really come back in full force until the Mii outfit and the February 2016 interview with Sakurai, it makes sense.

 

[fogbadge]

"Celebration of gaming history" implies a celebration of important moments in gaming history, not just anything in gaming history. Let's say a museum claimed to be a "celebration of American history" and it only had 5 elections documented, the moon landing is completely absent; and 60 landmark McDonald's openings were referenced - biggest McDonald's, 100th McDonald's, longest-lasting McDonald's, first international McDonald's, first millitary McDonald's, first in-store McDonald's, so on. Those McDonald'ses are technically part of American history, but not major parts.

I never said that I assume all autistic people act certain ways - it's a fact that autistic people tend to like patterns and dislike surprises. Acknowledging differences and how they effect the people who have them is not discrimination.

Well then, they shouldn't say the thing they're gonna contradict - especially since FP2 was likely planned out at that point!

no that fault is on you. You thought he was implying something that he wasn’t, that a number of previous characters disproved. You’re autistic so you must know that people don’t always say what they mean and people like us are gonna get it wrong a lot.

then why bring us up at all?

he’s human capable of messing up and not thinking things through

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

no that fault is on you. You thought he was implying something that he wasn’t, that a number of previous characters disproved. You’re autistic so you must know that people don’t always say what they mean and people like us are gonna get it wrong a lot.

then why bring us up at all?

he’s human capable of messing up and not thinking things through

What are these "us" pronouns about? Autistic people aren't all the same and they don't have the same experiences. Either way, "celebration of gaming history" is a marketing buzzword lie, no different from - if not worse than - blast processing, and easily disproven with a quick glance. You can't say something you don't mean in an advert, that's false advertising.

I was trying to find a possible cause/root for the Smash fandom's obsession with patterns.

Sakurai is a human... with a massive marketing team behind him, analyising and approving his every word - especially in official adverts like the Byleth presentation. We should hold people who run triple A titles to a higher standard than normal people or indie devs, especially with their words.

 

[fogbadge]

What are these "us" pronouns about? Autistic people aren't all the same and we don't have the same experiences. Either way, "celebration of gaming history" is a marketing buzzword lie, no different from - if not worse than - blast processing, and easily disproven with a quick glance. You can't say something you don't mean in an advert, that's false advertising.

I was trying to find a possible cause/root for the Smash fandom's obsession with patterns.

Sakurai is a human... with a massive marketing team behind him, analyising and approving his every word - especially in official adverts like the Byleth presentation. We should hold people who run triple A titles to a higher standard than normal people or indie devs, especially with their words.

you were doing that earlier on. Point is autistim is about communication problems and if you don’t know that much you’ve not been listening to anyone. Also he didn’t lie did he you just misunderstood what he meant. The idea that you can’t lie in adverts is wrong as all adverts are full of lies. So you can’t blame him for lying to you when it’s based on your own assumptions not what he actually said.

what makes you think there is a reason?

you can think that all you want it doesn’t make it true. And they don’t analyse his every word, his tweets and famitsu articles in particular would be immune to such things. The idea that the triple a industry should have higher standards is a nice idea but one that is disproven by reality. Usually cause they think they can get away with anything

 

[Ze Diglett]

Honestly if Geno was THAT popular on the Smash ballot, then I do think they probably would of at least tried to put him in. It's extremely telling to me that across both Smash 4 and Ultimate, he was passed over for not one, not two, but THREE other SE characters, FOUR if you want to count Sora even though he's The Mouse's property. Meanwhile, Banjo & Kazooie were the first ever Microsoft owned characters in Smash, beating out considerably more popular choices like Master Chief and Minecraft Steve.

Geno only getting a spirit and Mii outfit just tells me that while he was popular, he was only popular enough to get the nod, not enough to be made playable. He's more comparable to say, Isaac, Krystal, etc in that regard, and also you know, has the extra bonus problem of not even being first party, instead owned by another big company with their own slew of iconic and popular characters. were just in a league of their own.

When you consider that alot of the Geno fan movement actually did die out during the period of the Smash ballot, and wouldn't really come back in full force until the Mii outfit and the February 2016 interview with Sakurai, it makes sense.

As someone who was on the Geno train super hard for Ultimate, I think Ultimate was genuinely his last chance and if the fans' efforts weren't enough to get him in this time, nothing will short of a full-scale restructuring of how Smash picks its characters. It's a shame, because I think if Smash were willing to dip its toe in the water of weird, obscure picks more often (y'know, like it used to ), we'd be in a much more interesting place right now and Smash would be way cooler as a crossover event. Someone like Geno may not have as many big green $ signs over his head than someone like Sora or Sephiroth, but as a consumer, I don't really see why I should care about that? It's like, oh no, this multi-million selling AAA party fighter is gonna sell a few thousand less copies because Master Chief isn't in it, I'm so distraught by this. (I'm not, actually.)

Banjo was clearly chosen as a "gift to the fans", he's not a big name seller like Master Chief or Marcus Fenix, he really only appeals to people grew up on N64 and the few 360 kids who stumbled across his game on the Xbox Marketplace, but the smaller, more hardcore Smash fandom is filled with that prior demographic and thus was all about Banjo at the time - you could consider that a bit of a selfless gesture really, but as Ultimate's DLC cycle went on it started to feel like a bit more of a selfless... jester for reasons I'll go into soon

I find this to be pretty myopic honestly, implying that a character can only be cool for people who played that character's game(s). I never owned a N64 and didn't play Banjo-Kazooie until after the character was revealed for Smash, but I was still mad excited for them because I knew people wanted them and I knew they were a big deal. As someone who didn't play their games, I simply appreciated the satisfaction of seeing Banjo and Kazooie come "home," so to speak, and I anticipate it was the same way for a lot of people. Hell, we all know the meme that Geno fans haven't actually played SMRPG (which, untrue, but that's beside the point). Like, have you never been excited for a character from a game or series you haven't played?

Either way, "celebration of gaming history" is a marketing buzzword lie, no different from - if not worse than - blast processing, and easily disproven with a quick glance. You can't say something you don't mean in an advert, that's false advertising.

It's funny because "blast processing" did turn out to be a real thing, it just didn't mean anything in the context of how most Genesis games were made.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

As someone who was on the Geno train super hard for Ultimate, I think Ultimate was genuinely his last chance and if the fans' efforts weren't enough to get him in this time, nothing will short of a full-scale restructuring of how Smash picks its characters. It's a shame, because I think if Smash were willing to dip its toe in the water of weird, obscure picks more often (y'know, like it used to ), we'd be in a much more interesting place right now and Smash would be way cooler as a crossover event. Someone like Geno may not have as many big green $ signs over his head than someone like Sora or Sephiroth, but as a consumer, I don't really see why I should care about that? It's like, oh no, this multi-million selling AAA party fighter is gonna sell a few thousand less copies because Master Chief isn't in it, I'm so distraught by this. (I'm not, actually.)

I actually agree here! I love obscure stuff, and I'm not saying that obscure characters - first or third party - should be excluded from Smash, rather that they should choose between presenting Smash as a "celebration of gaming history" where Cloud and Sonic finally meet, or filling it to the brim with Nintendo content and 3rd party IPs with appeal to Nintendo fans - not that they should choose between making a profitable game or a non-profitable game. There would still be room for obscure characters in a true celebration given how many revolutionary games go under the radar because Mario or whoever did the same a few months later. I'm not impying one option is better than the other either, rather than one is better than a weird mix of both.

I find this to be pretty myopic honestly, implying that a character can only be cool for people who played that character's game(s). I never owned a N64 and didn't play Banjo-Kazooie until after the character was revealed for Smash, but I was still mad excited for them because I knew people wanted them and I knew they were a big deal. As someone who didn't play their games, I simply appreciated the satisfaction of seeing Banjo and Kazooie come "home," so to speak, and I anticipate it was the same way for a lot of people. Like, have you never been excited for a character from a game or series you haven't played?

I don't tyink you understand - my mention of Banjo alone wasn't an individual criticism, I was excited for Banjo despite never playing it. It was a way of explaining my thoughts on how Smash has no focus anymore

It's funny because "blast processing" did turn out to be a real thing, it just didn't mean anything in the context of how most Genesis games were made.

Hence the "if not worse"

 

[StrangeKitten]

The fact that all the times Sakurai has posted the Geno Mii, its face is always obscured... It does make me wonder, is it really just to sell the idea of the actual character being there, or does Sakurai dislike the face just like we do? Was he unable to at least negotiate for a deluxe costume a la Sans, and regrets that the head looks so bad? Geno's definitely a complicated character, what with being owned by S-E and all... And Sakurai was weirdly mute about the situation, afaik not saying anything about Geno's costume unceremoniously returning for Ultimate. Just gets me so morbidly curious about what exactly the situation with him is. It might not be on Sakurai that he couldn't do more for Geno. It might be on S-E, who prioritized Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and maybe Sora.

Which, come to think of it, makes a lot of sense. Geno probably placed well on the ballot (especially since they went through the trouble of making a Mii costume of him afterwords), but better than "character from Final Fantasy"? We'll never know for certain, of course, but I could see FF winning out. Same for "character from Dragon Quest"; and, as we now know, Sora won the whole thing. Those are S-E's biggest franchises (they share KH with Disney but still), so, as much of a Geno supporter as I am, S-E wouldn't be in the wrong for opting for their biggest franchises. It's worth keeping in mind that this was a global poll, too. The dedicated speculation scene is gonna care a lot about Geno. The casual gamer? Might have heard of him and even like him, but much more likely to give their votes to Sora, FF, and DQ (I cannot stress enough how popular DQ is in Japan, which not only gives it loads of probable votes from there, but the devs likely have bias towards it too, which isn't a bad thing).

As for getting both Cloud and Sephiroth? Well, for one, they almost always come paired together. For another, I can see Sephiroth, much like Byleth, having the timing and circumstances line up for him pretty perfectly. Sakurai mentions to S-E that he wants to add to the previously-lacking villains side of the roster for Ultimate. S-E knows they have FFVII Remake in the works. The math honestly checks out.

As for why did we then get Banjo-Kazooie and not Master Chief? Microsoft isn't S-E. It may have come down to Microsoft not prioritizing their biggest franchises to the exclusion of the fan favorite, but instead going, "Okay, go ahead and add the fan favorite, then we'll do our biggest character after that." It may have been that negotiations went a bit differently. Hell, it may have even been that Microsoft wanted a character in both passes, but Steve was so damn complicated to add that both Microsoft and the Smash dev team needed a character who would be easy to add.

Point of all this is... It's a complicated situation. One that I'm not sure we should really be pinning blame for. The frustrating part being the fact that we know very little of what went on behind the scenes, and we'll probably always know so little, because Sakurai wants to maintain a good relationship with the companies he works with. Let's say my theories as to why Geno didn't make it as a full fighter are correct. While they're not so bad if you analyze them, Sakurai is still not going to tell people that S-E prioritized their biggest franchises or that Geno placed lower on the Ballot than FF/DQ/Sora, because he doesn't want to make S-E look bad, even if just to the few Geno fans who would feel anger about it. It would just be taboo to release behind-the-scenes info like that about a different company you negotiated with. Should it be taboo? Maybe not, but doesn't change the fact that it is.

It's also worth noting that there are many factors at play as to which characters get added. Some, such as Inkling, Byleth, or Min Min, stem from Nintendo wanting recent characters of theirs to get in so that the game feels current (and I wouldn't be surprised if such additions help offset the cost of third party characters). Some are characters Sakurai likes a lot or thought would make for an interesting fighter, such as Piranha Plant and Terry. Some are fan-requested characters, such as K Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, and Steve (c'mon, we all know a ton of people would have voted for Steve on the Ballot, even if he was divisive here on Smashboards). The downside is that, unfortunately, not all fan requests make it in, and it can seem unsatisfying in hindsight. But the upside is that additions feel unpredictable, which imo is a good thing.

Lastly, billing Smash Ultimate as "a celebration of gaming" leaves it in a messy place. On the one hand, it is the biggest gaming crossover ever by all objective measures. On the other hand, every game has/had a heavy Nintendo slant, so you get characters like Dr. Mario and Ice Climbers who don't exactly jump to mind as hugely important video game characters, while lacking things such as Master Chief and a WoW rep of some sort. That's just what happened due to Smash starting out as a Nintendo-focused series and only transitioning to a "celebration of gaming" recently. Ya just gotta accept it for what it is. I think we could all probably stand to try and zoom our focus out. I'm autistic too, and guilty as charged of pouring over minute details. It may do some good to step back and consider what the likely reasons could be for the roster shaping up how it has.

 

[Dinoman96]

As for why did we then get Banjo-Kazooie and not Master Chief? Microsoft isn't S-E. It may have come down to Microsoft not prioritizing their biggest franchises to the exclusion of the fan favorite, but instead going, "Okay, go ahead and add the fan favorite, then we'll do our biggest character after that." It may have been that negotiations went a bit differently. Hell, it may have even been that Microsoft wanted a character in both passes, but Steve was so damn complicated to add that both Microsoft and the Smash dev team needed a character who would be easy to add.

I think the simple answer there is that Banjo & Kazooie were at the absolute top of the ballot results, with only Sora ahead of them. Master Chief didn't really become a popular Smash candidate until later on, considering that he was considered a Goku tier implausible meme pick back in 2015, much more so than Banjo, Sora, etc

 

[Ze Diglett]

The fact that all the times Sakurai has posted the Geno Mii, its face is always obscured... It does make me wonder, is it really just to sell the idea of the actual character being there, or does Sakurai dislike the face just like we do? Was he unable to at least negotiate for a deluxe costume a la Sans, and regrets that the head looks so bad? Geno's definitely a complicated character, what with being owned by S-E and all... And Sakurai was weirdly mute about the situation, afaik not saying anything about Geno's costume unceremoniously returning for Ultimate. Just gets me so morbidly curious about what exactly the situation with him is. It might not be on Sakurai that he couldn't do more for Geno. It might be on S-E, who prioritized Cloud, Hero, Sephiroth, and maybe Sora.

Which, come to think of it, makes a lot of sense. Geno probably placed well on the ballot (especially since they went through the trouble of making a Mii costume of him afterwords), but better than "character from Final Fantasy"? We'll never know for certain, of course, but I could see FF winning out. Same for "character from Dragon Quest"; and, as we now know, Sora won the whole thing. Those are S-E's biggest franchises (they share KH with Disney but still), so, as much of a Geno supporter as I am, S-E wouldn't be in the wrong for opting for their biggest franchises. It's worth keeping in mind that this was a global poll, too. The dedicated speculation scene is gonna care a lot about Geno. The casual gamer? Might have heard of him and even like him, but much more likely to give their votes to Sora, FF, and DQ (I cannot stress enough how popular DQ is in Japan, which not only gives it loads of probable votes from there, but the devs likely have bias towards it too, which isn't a bad thing).

As for getting both Cloud and Sephiroth? Well, for one, they almost always come paired together. For another, I can see Sephiroth, much like Byleth, having the timing and circumstances line up for him pretty perfectly. Sakurai mentions to S-E that he wants to add to the previously-lacking villains side of the roster for Ultimate. S-E knows they have FFVII Remake in the works. The math honestly checks out.

As for why did we then get Banjo-Kazooie and not Master Chief? Microsoft isn't S-E. It may have come down to Microsoft not prioritizing their biggest franchises to the exclusion of the fan favorite, but instead going, "Okay, go ahead and add the fan favorite, then we'll do our biggest character after that." It may have been that negotiations went a bit differently. Hell, it may have even been that Microsoft wanted a character in both passes, but Steve was so damn complicated to add that both Microsoft and the Smash dev team needed a character who would be easy to add.

Point of all this is... It's a complicated situation. One that I'm not sure we should really be pinning blame for. The frustrating part being the fact that we know very little of what went on behind the scenes, and we'll probably always know so little, because Sakurai wants to maintain a good relationship with the companies he works with. Let's say my theories as to why Geno didn't make it as a full fighter are correct. While they're not so bad if you analyze them, Sakurai is still not going to tell people that S-E prioritized their biggest franchises or that Geno placed lower on the Ballot than FF/DQ/Sora, because he doesn't want to make S-E look bad, even if just to the few Geno fans who would feel anger about it. It would just be taboo to release behind-the-scenes info like that about a different company you negotiated with. Should it be taboo? Maybe not, but doesn't change the fact that it is.

It's also worth noting that there are many factors at play as to which characters get added. Some, such as Inkling, Byleth, or Min Min, stem from Nintendo wanting recent characters of theirs to get in so that the game feels current (and I wouldn't be surprised if such additions help offset the cost of third party characters). Some are characters Sakurai likes a lot or thought would make for an interesting fighter, such as Piranha Plant and Terry. Some are fan-requested characters, such as K Rool, Banjo & Kazooie, and Steve (c'mon, we all know a ton of people would have voted for Steve on the Ballot, even if he was divisive here on Smashboards). The downside is that, unfortunately, not all fan requests make it in, and it can seem unsatisfying in hindsight. But the upside is that additions feel unpredictable, which imo is a good thing.

Lastly, billing Smash Ultimate as "a celebration of gaming" leaves it in a messy place. On the one hand, it is the biggest gaming crossover ever by all objective measures. On the other hand, every game has/had a heavy Nintendo slant, so you get characters like Dr. Mario and Ice Climbers who don't exactly jump to mind as hugely important video game characters, while lacking things such as Master Chief and a WoW rep of some sort. That's just what happened due to Smash starting out as a Nintendo-focused series and only transitioning to a "celebration of gaming" recently. Ya just gotta accept it for what it is. I think we could all probably stand to try and zoom our focus out. I'm autistic too, and guilty as charged of pouring over minute details. It may do some good to step back and consider what the likely reasons could be for the roster shaping up how it has.

I really can't blame SE for Geno not being in the game simply because they aren't picking the characters for Nintendo/Sakurai's game. Sure, they could just pick up the ball and go home if Sakurai picks someone they don't like, but... why would they do that? It's Smash. That's about the best free advertising you can ask for in this industry. (Hell, they're paying YOU to advertise your stuff. It's a no-brainer of a deal no matter who they pick.) I really do think that as much as Sakurai may like Geno, he just prioritized Cloud, Sephiroth, [insert generic DQ protagonist here] (yes, we know how popular DQ is in Japan, that's also one country out of the 195 that exist in this world), and Sora for being more iconic. Which makes sense considering the direction Smash is very obviously taking, leaving C-listers and below in the dust in favor of only the most marketable characters out there, but such picks do very little for me if I'm honest and I hope the next Smash game steers the series in a different direction.

I do kinda doubt Steve would've received a lot of votes in the ballot considering this was 2015 and not only was Steve barely considered a character back then, but it also kind of falls in that awkward period where Minecraft was considered "cringe" for about 4 or 5 years. Maybe some kids wrote in "Minecraft" or something to that effect, but I doubt Steve himself was exactly topping the charts back then. The fact of the matter is Steve probably got in simply because Minecraft is kind of impossible to ignore in a "celebration of gaming," if that's really what Smash wants to brand itself as.

Personally, I say boo on the whole "celebration of gaming" thing. If being a "celebration of gaming" means Smash can't have anyone who isn't the star of a well-known AAA series, then I'll pass on that nonsense.

 

[Guynamednelson]

The fact of the matter is Steve probably got in simply because Minecraft is kind of impossible to ignore in a "celebration of gaming," if that's really what Smash wants to brand itself as.

It also took Sakurai finally figuring out how Steve should be a fighter and getting the resources to make his ideal Steve. This is probably the real reason why Smash shouldn't try to become a celebration of gaming, Sakurai will say no to iconic characters if he can't imagine them working as fighters.

 

[Dinoman96]

In general the Banjo vs. Steve arguments from 2018-2019 were an interesting microcosm of the debates of what celebration mattered more for Smash: Nintendo history (Banjo) or Gaming history (Steve)?

 

[fogbadge]

(they share KH with Disney but still),

no they dont. disney owns it by themselves

 

[StrangeKitten]

no they dont. disney owns it by themselves

I meant in the sense that Sakurai would likely be negotiating with S-E as well as Disney when it comes to KH content. Which maybe I'm wrong but I mean, those are S-E's characters in KH after all.

 

[fogbadge]

I meant in the sense that Sakurai would likely be negotiating with S-E as well as Disney when it comes to KH content. Which maybe I'm wrong but I mean, those are S-E's characters in KH after all.

see he only needed disney's permission to use sora but he talked to normua cause he valued his input

 

[Oddball]

It also took Sakurai finally figuring out how Steve should be a fighter and getting the resources to make his ideal Steve. This is probably the real reason why Smash shouldn't try to become a celebration of gaming, Sakurai will say no to iconic characters if he can't imagine them working as fighters.

He didn't want to include Steve until he figured out how to make him work. That's not a bad thing. Would you rather have him include characters that feels absolutely nothing like how they're supposed to?

 

[Guynamednelson]

He didn't want to include Steve until he figured out how to make him work. That's not a bad thing. Would you rather have him include characters that feels absolutely nothing like how they're supposed to?

I wasn't saying that was a bad thing. I was saying that it'll be an issue for those who want only the biggest characters to join Smash, as Sakurai can reject/delay their inclusions for whatever reason, including not instantly knowing how to make Steve work or Nintendo wanting a few more thousand copies of the newest FE sold.