Critique Super Smash Bros.

[fogbadge]

i feel the trend in ultimate to sort of ape the more traditional fighting games is a bit off and kind of against the original spirit of smash

 

[UserKev]

My stance on regarding Sakurai's obligatory theme selections:

Overworld themes are very cliche inside of Smash. Delfino Plaza is a literal stage theme in Smash that, Sakurai could have easily done far better if he had gone with selecting the boss theme from Sunshine.

Super Mario 64's general level theme is even mind bogglingly a stage theme, that Bowser's boss battle theme in SM64 is universally more fitting. And more Smash like. These are some of the most distracting themes that has zero accomplishment in Smash. And are essentially off topic to Smash's aggression. And rhythm.

 

[fogbadge]

And are essentially off topic to Smash's aggression. And rhythm.

thats what makes them fun

 

[UserKev]

thats what makes them fun

Super Mario Bros. U's theme far bypasses the niche, making its theme very bland in Smash.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Now that I've seen the reactions to MVS and NASB newcomers/exclusions with their "hey look, this guy's in it too!" approach, I can pretty safely confirm something I've always suspected: that Nintendo, Sakurai, and their self-important marketing are fully responsible for the toxic nature of Smash discussion and speculation, not "bad apples"; "the nature of crossovers"; or "fans overexpecting".

Hugh in particular is a great case study of this, even with disagreements most Hugh discussion is respectful in nature and the response from Jimmy fans and/or Hugh dislikers has mostly been "darn, that sucks." If Hugh wasn't also 1. accompanied by Rocko and especially Jenny, and 2. just briefly teased with obvious close-ups rather than a unique JN animation with some powerful sound effect and flashy effect to signify his addition, I don't think it'd have been that civil.

Rocko is a great example of this too, a character most NASB fans (2000s kids who grew up on a lot of action-heavy; sharp-drawn cartoons that favoured fantasy over surrealty) have no attachment to and may even actively dislike the gross-out homourous styles; squiggly aesthetic; and harsh real world themes of, but are willing to let fly because there's no danger of a "looming fighter limit" or idea of Rocko inherently being more worthy than Timmy/Snap/Tigre/a Mr. Meaty puppet because of NASB.

 

[Oracle Link]

Here’s a critique I have with Ultimate and overall the future of the rosters in the games to come.

Short version; there are plenty of Nintendo characters still left to use and even if they aren’t important or hype-worthy, they’ll become important by the sheer prestige that Smash gives its playable characters. This is still a Nintendo crossover game and Nintendo faces shouldn’t be downplayed, especially if 3rd party characters aren’t able to return for any number of reasons.

Long Version: There is a notion among certain parts of this fandom that annoys me. There’s this viewpoint that every 1st party (Keyword, they add in 2nd party characters in this umbrella too without knowing it) character that matters is already in the playable roster (Keyword, playable). Nintendo has hundreds if not thousands of characters that can be added to the roster. Whether you think they’re hype-worthy or not isn’t up to you. I’d argue that thanks to the 3rd parties Brawl introduced, there is this perception that any Nintendo-owned character that isn’t on the playable roster isn’t important. This to me damages the future roster potential of Smash Bros., you’re going to get people who want 3rd parties over actual Nintendo characters and Nintendo themselves in my opinion are only fueling those view points.

Ultimate’s roster also shines a light on why I feel this mindset is damaging. Again, this is all an opinion so please don’t come at me with any grievances you have over me disagreeing with what you like.

Smash has always had a rather…awkward manner of selecting characters. You’ve got Mario and Donkey Kong, alongside Yoshi, Link and Pikachu and even lesser characters like Kirby, Samus, Falcon and Ness. Kirby and Metroid aren’t terribly obscure, but they aren’t what I’d call games that could push a console like Mario, Zelda and DKC did. But Ness, Fox and Falcon are definitely the outliners of that roster. Jigglypuff could be argued, but the anime was making it a popular recurring character and it was an easy character to make off Kirby’s base. If nothing else, it was a fan favorite prior to Smash in a deck of 151 characters.

Melee comes in and adds some bigger names like Bowser, Peach, Zelda, Pichu who again had popularity from an already large deck prior to (And being a clone helped, more on that later), but you also had some strange picks like G&W, Ice Climber repurposing the player characters as a duo (sidenote, Ice Climber was one of my first games so I loved them to death), and two big sore thumbs like the clone characters and the two Japan-only characters from Fire Emblem, which at the time were shocking. Ganondorf was the big boss of Zelda’s breakout title, but he was a clone of Falcon? Then you had a smaller Link, Falco who I would say would be the last character anyone would have expected, and Dr. Mario who may as well be an alternate costume at the time. You also had some guys that people were anticipating that were missing in action like Diddy Kong, Wario, Banjo-Kazooie (Which was understandable as Rare was getting ready to move to Microsoft), Meowth, and Dedede or Metaknight, whichever one came first.

Looking at Melee’s roster, could you really say that the alternatives like Dr. Mario, Roy and Young Link are noteworthy names over someone like Diddy Kong, Ridley, Isaac or Wario? I know they were added to make the roster bigger and took very little time compared to a full character but this is why I don’t get into the mindset that Sakurai is scraping the bottom of the barrel; the barrel was being filled with potential candidates starting with Brawl. Diddy and Wario finally made it and you had more one-off characters like Pit and two new Kirby characters.

Yet Isaac, Samurai Goroh and Starfy were reduced to a short cameo that only core Nintendo fans would recognize, while characters like ROB, Zero Suit Samus and Lucas became playable. Not that there’s anything wrong with those characters but in the case of Zero Suit, Ridley in Melee’s intro led a lot of people on, and I think this is why Sakurai stopped using unique imagery like the scenes in Melee’s introduction, what you see from Brawl onward is what you get, I give him credit for that at least. Wolf, Goroh and Ridley were absent from Melee, and Goroh never got his time to shine while the other two eventually did, Ridley being way overdue alongside another villain that eventually got in, which also brings me to my next point.

A lot of obvious choices or some fan choices that people hoped to see would either make it to the roster eventually (IE a decade if not years) or never get to be playable or even get cut from the next game and them come back in the same position they were in (Isaac, and keep in mind I’m not a Golden Sun fan nor do I think they’re good games, but I get why people were banking on Isaac to be playable and I think some of the elements could lend themselves well to Smash). It should not take a suggestion box being filled with people shouting to add King K. Rool and Ridley on the playable roster. A mode like Subspace Emissary which passed itself off as this big event should have had K. Rool in the game as a boss at most, if Ridley got that honor.

But then you see Ganondorf and Bowser and realize that villains could be playable too. So why weren’t they until now? And to make matters worse, they swapped a smaller Link for an even smaller Link – who I like alongside the games he stars in mind you – and added oddities like Samus outside her armor, a Wario that doesn’t really represent his Wario Land adventures and leans towards material that wasn’t present in his games, something Sakurai seemingly stresses over when developing a character and suddenly here comes Solid Snake and Sonic the Hedgehog. While Olimar, Ike and Lucario showed a good balance of newer Nintendo games and Pit and ROB showcased an older element of Nintendo alongside a unique showcase of Pokémon’s switch out mechanic and even Wolf and Diddy being the long-time guys that people hoped to see in Melee, I think that Snake and Sonic opened a box that would affect the roster further for the worse.

Smash For definitely proved my point with a lot of would-be fan favorites, regardless of how big or well-known they were being pushed into the assist trophy corner if not being cut altogether simply because of reasons or the dreaded “Relevancy” argument. You had a list of characters who were pushing a recent title and some 3rd parties that weren’t really pushing a new game, Mega Man and Pac-Man a prime example of this, and in the case of 3rd parties, pushing a new game wasn’t the priority, it was simply being these big name 3rd parties. This is why I don’t like when people are attacked for suggesting Nintendo characters in the big Nintendo crossover, it’s clear that 3rd parties don’t have to push a new title, but Nintendo characters have to do just this or they get shafted. There's also the well-documented strategy of Fire Emblem being promoted when it only just now became a series barely on par with say, Kirby or Metroid and especially with DKC1 outselling the entire series before Awakening.

In the case of Sakurai, I also feel this is a mix of obligations and biases on his end. Who you see on the roster is ultimately his choice. You could argue that Nintendo may not want certain characters pushed but then you have to remember that King K. Rool jumped the hurdles that were being used against him. And then you realize that K. Rool is the only example here. Ridley was already in Smash in some capacity, but K. Rool was just a trophy you collected until the Ballot, and he was just a western creation that Donkey Kong already did away with at the time. So being ‘relevant’ isn’t an argument. And all of a sudden, King K. Rool is important and a worthy addition when there’s plenty of receipts showing that people thought otherwise. What should be the norm is now just a bone thrown to the dogs to keep them quiet.

Again, he was a western-made character vs. Ridley being Japanese-made. That alone gave Ridley more priority. Castlevania hasn’t gotten a new title in years, Street Fighter is big enough that it doesn’t need Smash to sell the newest title, Dragon Quest is a literal cultural phenomenon, Banjo-Kazooie is the 3rd party equivalent of King K. Rool, Terry’s series got devoured by King of Fighters, you kinda see where I’m going with this. 3rd parties get to be 3rd parties, just the name alone is enough to get them in (Except Bomberman it seems, and I’m still raw over that).

But Nintendo characters that Sakurai doesn’t care for or Nintendo themselves don’t care for or don’t want to push are likely never going to be playable. Big names like Dixie Kong, King Hippo, Isaac, Bandana Dee, Gooey, Krystal, Toad, Ashley, Waluigi, Skull Kid, Pig Ganon, Starfy (He had five games vs. Kid Icarus’ three) alongside niche fan favorites like Takamaru, Sukapon, Lip, Chibi-Robo, Dillon and Ray-01 are never becoming playable unless you get a big roster like Ultimate’s again and even that’s not a guarantee when Nintendo newcomers like Spring Man and Rex weren’t safe from getting the shaft, making additions like Min-Min and Pyra/Mythra even more damning and sloppy, proving that giving the fans something over nothing doesn’t always work.

And this brings me to the big controversy the next Smash title has to deal with: Who’s worthy of staying and who’s getting cut? You could look at the roster now and make the obvious cuts (3rd parties, clones/dessert) but then what? Do you cut characters that aren’t ‘relevant’? Falcon and Ness and Little Mac come to mind for me. But wait, they have fans. But they can’t promote a game. They have to go. And then…

Who do you replace these guys with? You’re going to have to sell Smash someway. New playable characters are always going to get more attention than any other side attraction, and it’s understandable why Assist Trophies and spirits aren’t enough for some people (Myself included). You’ll have to get a newcomer lineup that gets people’s attention. So do you dive into your irrelevant war chest of has-beens, do you strictly keep things fresh with all new faces or do you continue to push for 3rd parties in an already reduced roster?

This is why the argument of every Nintendo character that’s important is already in is flawed. Because if that were the case, you wouldn’t see King K. Rool in the roster, you’d see Spring Man and Rex instead. You wouldn’t see Isaac and Skull Kid fans getting hopeful after K. Rool was shown and the Moon assist which also raised a few eyebrows. Those characters have their fans, same as Ness, Falcon and Little Mac just to use as an example of ‘important’ characters.

Even in an 88-man roster, there are still people who want their character in, Nintendo or not. But Nintendo owns Smash, so you'll have to deal with Nintendo characters anyway. These eighty-eight characters are the do-or-die definitive list of important characters in all of video games? Only everyone in the image above? Smash can never scratch the surface of video games, and the spirits mode is not a viable way of doing that, it only shows how small Ultimate's roster is. Sticker Mode did this back in Brawl, and that wasn't really a mode people were sad over losing. This is a game where Mario, Donkey Kong, Pac-Man, Sonic, Rayman, Bomberman, Akira Yuki and Kunio-Kun all come together...but the latter half mentioned only appear as cameos or costumes, never mind the ones I didn't mention who appear in the supporting role. All of the trailers showing the playable roster doesn't show the spirits or even the assist trophies. If they're a great way to add in characters who wouldn't be in the game otherwise, why not show them alongside the playable characters? Why not show how great it is to have these ten-second cameos alongside the meat of the series...unless they aren't really...

Never mind. Forget I even mentioned it.

Everyone has their perception of what Smash should be, and only one man currently has any actual power to add in characters within the mandates Nintendo offers him. But assuming he isn’t around for the next title or he decides to scale down the roster, it’s definitely clear that there’s always going to be new faces in the playable roster. Who they are isn’t important, because Smash already makes lesser known faces big, sometimes bigger than the games or series they come from and whatever the next game’s roster looks like (or doesn’t look like) is going to piss off a lot of people anyway.

This Is a Really good take!
Lets get the Critique out of the way first!
Although i do have To say that the Clone = Bad Take is a Pretty Bad Take after all Lets mention the most relevant example to me:
Link and "small Link" Why do we need both? Easy because Link is a Kid in over Half of his Games Including all Top down ones (Heck they even Retconned ALTTP and LA Link younger) I For example have 0 Nostalgia for Adult Link While i adore Toon Link and I 100% Think that if zelda has 4 (or more) Characters a small Link should be part of them!
Now for the Good bits:
(BTW im gonna lump 1st and 2nd Party together!)
Yeah People Complaining That a Nintendo character is a Wasted slot in a Nintendo fighting Game is stupid! I mean bandana Dee is a Giant Chracter
same with Toad and both Franchises are huge instead we get nothing for kirby and A Revenge/ Meme Pick for Mario And the Whole Hype/ Important Argument is stupid anyway After all they both Contradict each other for Example People are more hyped for Hugh even tho Jimmy is more important
I do still think the easiest Solution to making a lot of Nintendo Characters Playable in fighting games Would be a Zelda or Mario Smash (or a GOOD Kirby Fighters) but Still Smash should contain a bunch off amazing Characters From nintendo yet instead we have advertisments, A meme pick and a ton of Third partys i would love someday having Kirby, Meta Knight, Dedede, Bandana Dee and 2 Kirby Villains in smash but alas
DaRk MaTtEr IsNt ImPoRtAnT Or HyPeWoRtHy!

 

[mujhekro]

I actually think this is one of the dilemmas Smash has with heavies. They're really good when you're new to the game because they hit hard and don't get knocked as far, but have trouble keeping up when players start becoming more aware of combos, punishes, frame data, and can exploit their deficiencies.
hellodear.in

teatv download

 

[Ze Diglett]

I actually think this is one of the dilemmas Smash has with heavies. They're really good when you're new to the game because they hit hard and don't get knocked as far, but have trouble keeping up when players start becoming more aware of combos, punishes, frame data, and can exploit their deficiencies.

That's how heavies (or whatever archetype is most similar to heavies) tend to be in fighting games. Grapplers seeming too good day 1 is practically a meme in the FGC. It's funny because I main Ori (a glass cannon) in Rivals of Aether, yet I'm piss scared when I get matched against a Kragg online because heavies don't have a million years of lag on everything in that game and can still kill you stupid early. People act like the matchup's free, but it's actually super terrifying because I can be clapping cheeks for 90% of the match and the 10% that I'm not winning can cost me the game. It's great.

 

[Diddy Kong]

That's how heavies (or whatever archetype is most similar to heavies) tend to be in fighting games. Grapplers seeming too good day 1 is practically a meme in the FGC. It's funny because I main Ori (a glass cannon) in Rivals of Aether, yet I'm piss scared when I get matched against a Kragg online because heavies don't have a million years of lag on everything in that game and can still kill you stupid early. People act like the matchup's free, but it's actually super terrifying because I can be clapping cheeks for 90% of the match and the 10% that I'm not winning can cost me the game. It's great.

This is why Smash 4 DK was great, if not a little toxic even. Just one good grab and you could be gone. It's a shame they nerfed DK so badly in Ultimate, because Smash 4 DK was the first actual heavyweight Smash character that stood a decent chance against the fast combo based characters.

 

[Rocketjay8]

This is why Smash 4 DK was great, if not a little toxic even. Just one good grab and you could be gone. It's a shame they nerfed DK so badly in Ultimate, because Smash 4 DK was the first actual heavyweight Smash character that stood a decent chance against the fast combo based characters.

Smash 4 DK was hilarious but was incredibly degenerate and unfun to play against. I think that smash ultimate dk, while not the best character in viability, is much better designed and more fun to play. I think that Ultimate Bower is a much better example of a heavy character in competitive done right.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Smash 4 DK was hilarious but was incredibly degenerate and unfun to play against. I think that smash ultimate dk, while not the best character in viability, is much better designed and more fun to play. I think that Ultimate Bower is a much better example of a heavy character in competitive done right.

For sure, there is definitely such as a thing as TOO cheesy when it comes to a heavyweight. Smash 4 in general had a bit of a problem with the whole "gets grabbed once, ****ing dies" thing, which this game thankfully doesn't seem to have outside of a few fringe cases. The whole problem with Smash heavies is that they historically get by almost solely on cheese and not on being actual good characters - and that's if they don't just flounder about in the pits of F-tier for their entire lives like Ganon and DDD.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Smash 4 DK was hilarious but was incredibly degenerate and unfun to play against. I think that smash ultimate dk, while not the best character in viability, is much better designed and more fun to play. I think that Ultimate Bower is a much better example of a heavy character in competitive done right.

I mean, yeah it's extremely cheesy. But it's the one true heavyweight grappler Smash had, besides Brawl Dedede, maybe Smash 64 DK in a general sense. Ultimate DK is also fun, but way too polarizing. He got speed, KO power, strings, combos and range, but lacks a good approach and if hit once he's almost as good as done for.

So honestly, they're both designed similarly in terms of absurd polarities in a way, Smash 4 DK was just competitively better.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I mean, yeah it's extremely cheesy. But it's the one true heavyweight grappler Smash had, besides Brawl Dedede, maybe Smash 64 DK in a general sense. Ultimate DK is also fun, but way too polarizing. He got speed, KO power, strings, combos and range, but lacks a good approach and if hit once he's almost as good as done for.

So honestly, they're both designed similarly in terms of absurd polarities in a way, Smash 4 DK was just competitively better.

Of course, sometimes competitively viable doesn't always translate to a fun character. Krool is kinda unviable, but he's still so much fun to play.

 

[ThiagoCavalcanteCarvalho]

I think there are some little things I wish were in the game.
A rematch option as soon as a match ends. Matter of revenge against an AI without having to select the character.
4 talts. Unnecessary but it would solve a toc I have.
Skin loading is ridiculous. What's up Sakurai! It's just images.
Brawl's adventure mode should be back.
Updated and complete conversations targeting all characters including DLCs for Snake's radio and telepathy for Pit and Palutena. Yes, hard work, but an extremely interesting easter egg for fans.
Translation and dubbing, including the bid above for more languages. More specifically for Brazilian Portuguese. This is a regional thing.
Being able to connect a bluetooth headset and chat online with friends directly from the console.
Ganondorf should use magic and have more references to Ganon especially in his special moves. I'm not a Ganondorf user but I've been thinking that way since Melee.
I think Kirby could copy all the Special Moves. I know it would be a nightmare to do but it would make the copied shapes more strategically relevant to me.
Mario should have another down special... I'm turning this into a re-move let it go.

The only extremely important thing would be the improvement of this completely outdated online mode.

 

[Deleted member]

Just took a look at some video game concept art and fighting game stages. I’ve had this on my mind for a bit now, but Smash has some really mid stages compared to other fighting games. The backdrops aren’t that interesting, and they lack a mood that sets the tone of a match. I think this is a result of not only stages looking very samey (Ex: The abundance of grassy stages or the abundance of Mushroom Kingdom stages), but also them being pulled directly from the source material, which wasn’t specifically made for a fight to take place on. Just look at this.

WHY CAN’T WE HAVE STAGES LIKE THESE?!?

 

[Oracle Link]

Just took a look at some video game concept art and fighting game stages. I’ve had this on my mind for a bit now, but Smash has some really mid stages compared to other fighting games. The backdrops aren’t that interesting, and they lack a mood that sets the tone of a match. I think this is a result of not only stages looking very samey (Ex: The abundance of grassy stages or the abundance of Mushroom Kingdom stages), but also them being pulled directly from the source material, which wasn’t specifically made for a fight to take place on. Just look at this.

WHY CAN’T WE HAVE STAGES LIKE THESE?!?

I mean i agree on the whole Grassy bit but of course stages are pulled from source material and it could be Worse just look at DBFZ Stage Selection which consists mostly of Generic Locations!

 

[Linkmain-maybe]

So many fighters get unneeded bonuses. Why does Mythra get foresight. Why does Kazuya have tough guy. Why does G&W not go into free fall.

But heavies like Ganon get nothing. Not even one thing to set them apart than hitting rlly rlly hard. Unless your Bowser, where you get suicide moves and armor on grounded moves, AND TOUGH GUY! Why does Bowser get tough guy, and Ganon doesn’t. Ganon would be perfect for tough guy!

 

[UserKev]

Just took a look at some video game concept art and fighting game stages. I’ve had this on my mind for a bit now, but Smash has some really mid stages compared to other fighting games. The backdrops aren’t that interesting, and they lack a mood that sets the tone of a match. I think this is a result of not only stages looking very samey (Ex: The abundance of grassy stages or the abundance of Mushroom Kingdom stages), but also them being pulled directly from the source material, which wasn’t specifically made for a fight to take place on. Just look at this.

WHY CAN’T WE HAVE STAGES LIKE THESE?!?

I disagree. Smash 64, Melee. And to an extend Brawl has some of the most perfectly executed and interesting stage backgrounds. Like I stated on a similar topic, Smash is a different concept that focuses on seclusion, secluded distances. And remoteness. 64 and Melee are especially the peak of Smash stages that magic becomes more difficult to replicate each instalment. The stages HAVE been very bleak in more resent instalments (Wii U and Ultimate), but 64 and Melee are peak immersion.

 

[dardhai34]

I don't have problems short hopping. In fact, I have the opposite problem. Short hopping has become such a habit that I have a high failure rate when I intend to full hop in the heat of a match.
hellodear.in

teatv.ltd

 

[Deleted member]

I disagree. Smash 64, Melee. And to an extend Brawl has some of the most perfectly executed and interesting stage backgrounds. Like I stated on a similar topic, Smash is a different concept that focuses on seclusion, secluded distances. And remoteness. 64 and Melee are especially the peak of Smash stages that magic becomes more difficult to replicate each instalment. The stages HAVE been very bleak in more resent instalments (Wii U and Ultimate), but 64 and Melee are peak immersion.

Seclusion and remoteness? I think I might get what you mean, but could you elaborate?

 

[Kold Pizza]

The process of unlocking all the fighters was long and tedious, imagine starting a new game and having to do that all again. I’m fine with unlocking around 10 to 20 characters, but not if it’s almost the entire base roster. There’s so many characters now to keep track of. Now there’s so many different match ups I need to write down in order to stay organized on remembering certain competitive match ups.

 

[StrangeKitten]

That's how heavies (or whatever archetype is most similar to heavies) tend to be in fighting games. Grapplers seeming too good day 1 is practically a meme in the FGC. It's funny because I main Ori (a glass cannon) in Rivals of Aether, yet I'm piss scared when I get matched against a Kragg online because heavies don't have a million years of lag on everything in that game and can still kill you stupid early. People act like the matchup's free, but it's actually super terrifying because I can be clapping cheeks for 90% of the match and the 10% that I'm not winning can cost me the game. It's great.

(Late reply but) You should check out Chunkykong's DK, Leon's Bowser, Smub's Ridley, Kribykid's K Rool, and Skyjay's Incineroar. The clapping their cheeks thing for 90% of the match but the heavy can win when they play their 10%? Happens all the time in Ultimate, actually!

 

[MasterCheef]

My biggest complaints are :

USA never got the character we wanted = Master Chief

Ahri = missed the opportunity. Wild Rift still not on Switch nor any other console surprisingly as of 10/08/2022

Samus & Ganondorf = should have been reworked

Mii Gunner's side special should be = Grenade Launch

Most of the levels are just not fun.

going through platforms is too difficult.

 

[UserKev]

It seems Smash has a "bloated" issue. Last I played Ultimate, roster I found partially not fun to navigate through. Maybe a sort by series might've helped, but roster overall seemed focused on cramming in every "unique" addition. Or some quota.

I would even go so far as saying the stage selection also has this issue now that gives me a feeling there should definitely be less.

 

[Aligo]

It seems Smash has a "bloated" issue. Last I played Ultimate, roster I found partially not fun to navigate through. Maybe a sort by series might've helped, but roster overall seemed focused on cramming in every "unique" addition. Or some quota.

I would even go so far as saying the stage selection also has this issue now that gives me a feeling there should definitely be less.

I think most of the issue comes from the fact that things are ordered chronologically rather than by series. Heck, you could even have tabs for each series to reduce space.

I don't particularly believe there is character bloat other than maybe fire emblem, but I could see the stage roster being cut a bit more as some stages are either very similar to each other (mario grass stages and DK jungle stages, for instance) or just not fun to play on.

 

[Oracle Link]

I think most of the issue comes from the fact that things are ordered chronologically rather than by series. Heck, you could even have tabs for each series to reduce space.

I don't particularly believe there is character bloat other than maybe fire emblem, but I could see the stage roster being cut a bit more as some stages are either very similar to each other (mario grass stages and DK jungle stages, for instance) or just not fun to play on.

Yes the stage roster could easily be cut down! and as long as stuff like a Bowser, GAnondorf and Dedede stage are added the stage roster should be better overall!

 

[Aligo]

Yes the stage roster could easily be cut down! and as long as stuff like a Bowser, GAnondorf and Dedede stage are added the stage roster should be better overall!

What stage do you think would be best for ganondorf?

 

[Oracle Link]

What stage do you think would be best for ganondorf?

Either Ganons tower from OOT or the flodded tower from WW!

 

[UserKev]

Most newer stages feel empty and pointless. There's a great absence of charm when you look at

that is a hard notion that make you quote "Yup. This doesn't need to be a stage." I just really cringe at some of the newest additions like Kalos Pokemon League.

 

[Oracle Link]

Most newer stages feel empty and pointless. There's a great absence of charm when you look at
View attachment 371578
View attachment 371581
View attachment 371582
that is a hard notion that make you quote "Yup. This doesn't need to be a stage." I just really cringe at some of the newest additions like Kalos Pokemon League.

Wrecking crew shouldve been a retro stage TBH!
Smashes Stage selection in general hasd tons of issues i mean from 64 never getting updated Looks, Over Brawl "Realism", Over Some weird choices from newer Games!

 

[TheZizz]

What's this? True connoisseurs at last? Ready to speak at length over topics other than character/stage viability? A far cry from the dark times...the Basic Brawl times.... It's enough to bring a tear to these weary eyes. On the other hand it's almost disappointing in a way, I came here ready to lay waste to a legion of mindless subspace minions all over again.

As for me, I'm just wondering why Sakurai removed the noise from Wario's extended neutral-air, the bewww. I really miss his original F-Smash too, yes it was broken as hell but that was my bread-and-butter damn it.

As for the stages, I agree that they could be better designed. The upper platforms are too low to the ground, and you basically never want to be on them when your opponent is beneath you. There needs to be more space to jump between them, but then that might severely disadvantage some heavies with poor jumps. But me and my brother enjoyed our custom stages a lot more for this very reason.

As for Ultimate, the greater need for match-up know-how certainly does not work to my advantage. So many tricks and gimmicks to account for compared to the former games. It's still my favorite to play, however.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I probably should've mentioned this sooner, but it does feel rather disappointing that the developers didn't bother to expand further with Ultimate's addition of position vectors. That could've made Ganondorf's down smash more dependable, in terms of the first hit bringing targets toward the second hit's hitbox range.

Heck, even Pyra and Mythra could benefit from position vectors if they were added onto their up smashes.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

It's not exactly a controversial opinion to say that Omegas were a missed opportunity, everybody knows by now the controversial nature of FD within competitive scenes, the Z-axis and grass trap issues, travelling stages (including some of the ones made for competitive play first) still being motion-sickness-ey, and how mods like Legacy TE; HDR; and P+ Tourney Addition have done the concept better - however, one way I think people overlook these stages in that department is visually - a lot of the platforms from the Smash stages would work really well as big, eye-catching setpieces in the background, much like the ones you'd find in traditional fighters, but they instead opted to car-compact the existing stages into the shape of Battlefield - like, imagine if Melee Peach's Castle, Luigi's Mansion, Tomodachi Life, or Venom had the regular casual version stages behind the Omega form, it'd look better, right?

I also think a lot of them are too high in the sky - you can't see the street in Onett or jump in Figure-8 even though they left them in, you have to stare at the percentages to even get a glimpse of the dog in Living Room, and you'd never guess Omega Spirit Train was based on a train stage. Don't even get me started on NDC Hall

 

[UserKev]

Smash 4's character customization were such an interesting mechanic. In fact, they were the only recent meaningful unlockable feature worthwhile other than characters. I miss the overall risky, but highly rewarding ambiguity that made the gameplay feel well prepped. Character customization would have even benefited echoes.

 

[StrangeKitten]

It seems Smash has a "bloated" issue. Last I played Ultimate, roster I found partially not fun to navigate through. Maybe a sort by series might've helped, but roster overall seemed focused on cramming in every "unique" addition. Or some quota.

I would even go so far as saying the stage selection also has this issue now that gives me a feeling there should definitely be less.

I know I'm replying to this pretty late, but I agree. I know the fact that I play in handheld doesn't help, but I often find myself struggling to find a character or stage. And something that would help a ton would simply be sorting options. If I could group characters together by series, I could find, say, ZSS who blends in a lot due to being a human with light peach skin, much easier by knowing she'd be by Ridley and the suited Samuses, who stand out more, visually. I also wish I could sort the stages into at least two pages; there are too many all on one page. Though, sorting stages by series would also help, I feel. Maybe the biggest issue here is that ordering things by when they were added is just confusing, even for a Smash nerd like myself who knows when things were added. It, for example, spreads the Mario characters and stages out amongst everything else, when it would be much easier if it was all grouped together. It's possible the reason they did it that way is so that it would feel less awkward when, say, Piranha Plant was added as DLC and thus got placed at the end of the roster, but for one, I don't know why it would be impossible to add Plant with the Mario characters, and two, I feel like that would still be less confusing. Piranha Plant is at the end of the roster when it's added and towards the end after the rest of the DLC comes, and the rest of the Mario characters are together. That still seems simpler to me than spreading the characters out.

 

[soviet prince]

Smash 4's character customization were such an interesting mechanic. In fact, they were the only recent meaningful unlockable feature worthwhile other than characters. I miss the overall risky, but highly rewarding ambiguity that made the gameplay feel well prepped. Character customization would have even benefited echoes.

Personally I hated the custom moves

 

[StrangeKitten]

This is probably a cold take at this point, but custom moves felt like a great idea with poor execution. With better competitive balancing and unlock methods, they'd be great! Competitive balancing is also what Final Smashes need to potentially be used in tournaments. They gave us FS Meter and balanced them a little in Ultimate, but it wasn't enough when Zelda can KO you at very low %s while Mario's giant fireballs are meh. I suppose it is a tough one, though. Streamlining Final Smashes further may remove the weakness a lot of characters are supposed to have that they don't kill early, which could take them from some of the best characters in the game to overpowered. It's a tightrope walk Smash may never quite nail.

While I do love custom moves in theory, I think it's for the best that they were cut. I enjoy the thought of every character having more options, but not as much as I enjoy things like better competitive balance, a more fleshed-out adventure mode, or an extra character or two. Custom moves seem like a lot of extra work for minimal gain compared to what that dev time could be spent on otherwise.

 

[UserKev]

It kind of saddens me how custom moves are sugarcoated in detest while stage builder is morally praised, which is an overall terrible feature. No. There is literally no way you can make stage builder feel any sense of belief. And I could go on and on why stage builder is so unnecessary as a feature. But if you really want to go the extra mile, stage editor would have been a far superior take.

I feel custom moves more than fulfilled its purpose as a whacky feature that doesn't need any justification.

 

[Perkilator]

This is probably a cold take at this point, but custom moves felt like a great idea with poor execution. With better competitive balancing and unlock methods, they'd be great! Competitive balancing is also what Final Smashes need to potentially be used in tournaments. They gave us FS Meter and balanced them a little in Ultimate, but it wasn't enough when Zelda can KO you at very low %s while Mario's giant fireballs are meh. I suppose it is a tough one, though. Streamlining Final Smashes further may remove the weakness a lot of characters are supposed to have that they don't kill early, which could take them from some of the best characters in the game to overpowered. It's a tightrope walk Smash may never quite nail.

While I do love custom moves in theory, I think it's for the best that they were cut. I enjoy the thought of every character having more options, but not as much as I enjoy things like better competitive balance, a more fleshed-out adventure mode, or an extra character or two. Custom moves seem like a lot of extra work for minimal gain compared to what that dev time could be spent on otherwise.

Yeah…as much as I’d love custom moves back but more refined (more faithful to the source material, balanced with the competitive scene in mind, maybe even two variants instead of three), it’s ultimately a lot of dev Tom that could be spent elsewhere, especially considering the huge amount of characters.

 

[UserKev]

Custom moves is hardly dev time. And people are only being nitpicky based off speaking from the "Smash Ultimate" perspective, which custom moves would favor a "smaller roster."

This is another reason the "Ultimate" and Deluxe trope needs to go.