Critical flaw?

[Tristan_win]

Back in Melee I tried to use Captain Falcon for a period of time but his greatness was too much for me to handle so I failed but even so I still loved him and just as equally I love the Captain Falcon forum.

So proud
So skilled…Theses are the thoughts I have when I remember the Captain Falcon forum.

..I’ve yet to give Captain Falcon a real try in Brawl (I’m too busy reviving Sheik) but I have fought a couple online and I think I notice something that Captain Falcon doesn’t have that is critical.

Can Captain Falcon approach in the air, safely?

From what I’ve gather so far from the few fight I’ve had and the pity testing with his short hop aerials that answer is no even though he can auto cancel all of them but my opponent and I are not true CF players so please tell me.

Can Captain Falcon approach with any of his aerials and better yet can he hit someone shield and not get shield grabbed?

 

[goodoldganon]

In my experience he can't make any form of a decent approach at all. Regardless if it is in the air our on the ground.

 

[GodotAA]

the easiest way for me to start it up is to use his grabs.

 

[acv]

try falcon punch.

sarcasm

 

[flash7]

This may sound strange but his upair is his best air approach. Unless your fighting bigger/taller characters, which you can approach with Nair, Uair works pretty good. There is some timing to it however, which can make it a bit tricky to land on smaller opponents but it still lands.

You basically just do it before you hit the ground. Since it auto cancels I follow it up with a jab then grab. This little combo works very well.

Alternatively you can try bair although there is a tiny bit of lag on this so you might still get grabbed.

 

[Tenki]

I'm feeling like Falcon is a defensive character that you don't want to approach from the air, since most of his moves are anti-aerial (up-b, u-air, n-air, and even the knee is easier to land while going upwards)

Also, after watching a certain Falcon video and messing around in training mode, D smash is strong against shield (and has decent knockback on shield too), but it's weak to spotdodge.

Someone a while ago in a different thread said that SHAD is the best way to approach with Falcon, and maybe even running> spotdodge.

Just an idea, but sometimes my Sonic movements come out when I play other characters (example: using Ganondorf's up-B when I'm above an opponent -____-), but has anyone tried running > shield > d-tilt, to hit with the 'tip' of the move? It puts the opponent into a favorable position (and at least, it's got decent range, unlike Sonic's, where you have to be pretty much next to the guy to hit), if not, another d-tilt.

 

[abit_rusty]

RAR and space the bair.

 

[apmpnmdslkbk]

Easy short hop to an nair both kicks should hit and do some damage. But if only one kick hits then you can easily combo off of it.

 

[Devil7]

his bair and throws are his best aproaching ability. But it is quite funny to do a flying falcon punch at random, its not effective but still funny.

 

[Tenki]

the problem is that he can't always hit the shorter characters, and if they shield, they don't have enough knockback to keep him safe.

I think SHAD might really be the best approach for him, because if they attack, you can shield/grab them and get them into the air, and force them to air-approach you - and like I said before, it looks like Falcon's good vs air approaches.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Don't bother approaching from the air unless your opponent is really really tall, like at least as tall as Marth. And of course watch out in case they can duck out of range from your aerials.

If you must approach with an aerial, the N-air is so-so if your opponents are tall enough. The D-air should never be used with a short hop. The B-air and U-air might be tough to hit with, but are good if you can hit with them. The F-air oddly enough is one of his better aerials for approaching because the gimp knee often causes tripping.

With Brawl Captain Falcon, it's all about baiting and punishing. However if you must know, your best approaches are on the ground. You can try to grab someone if you think they will shield (my favorite way of doing this sometimes is running behind people for a Pivot grab). If you think you will do better if your opponent is above you, you could try for a Raptor Boost, although it's very punishable, and air dodging among other things make combos very hard for Falcon.

Honestly, I say your best approach is the Falcon kick in Brawl. It's been improved for a number of reasons. It seems to be one of few attacks Falcon has that has a bit more priority. It starts up faster than before and goes faster than he can run, so you can catch someone off guard with this. It also does more damage than the Raptor Boost, and if your opponent DOES shield this, your momentum will at least carry you far behind your opponent. It's his least punishable approach by far, and does better damage than most of the other attacks he would think of using for approaching.

 

[Nowaytoeatatater]

his bair and throws are his best aproaching ability. But it is quite funny to do a flying falcon punch at random, its not effective but still funny.

I manage to get people with it all the time <_<. It works best if they're at the edge of the stage. They'll probably try to roll dodge backwards and, if their timing is off, they'll get paunched.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Falcon is just plain bad now. Heck, trying to spam his grabs and throws is not an option anymore.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Falcon is just plain bad now. Heck, trying to spam his grabs and throws is not an option anymore.

Good job contributing to the conversation.

I find grabs and falcon kick to be good approaches for falcon. Just don't dash grab, I find dash canceling into a shield grab works fine.

 

[Tristan_win]

I was bit discourage after reading the first three replies I got but it seem the whole Captain Falcon forum came out to help.

Which is good,

Thank you everyone for posting your comments and helpful advise especially Flash7, A2ZOMG, and Tenki

 

[BananaTrooper]

There are a few points you posted I don't quite agree with.

If you must approach with an aerial, the N-air is so-so if your opponents are tall enough. The D-air should never be used with a short hop. The B-air and U-air might be tough to hit with, but are good if you can hit with them. The F-air oddly enough is one of his better aerials for approaching because the gimp knee often causes tripping.

I don't understand what you mean when you say the dair should never be used with a shorthop. In fact, I'd say the only time this is a viable move is when it's used with a shorthop. This move can be autocancelled, which is a very nice pro (and yes, it is very possible to autocancel this everytime; if you're having trouble with autocancelling this move and are using a GC controller, PM me and I can try and help you). While it isn't perhaps the greatest approach move, it is a good way to punish dash attack spammers. Approach wise, if you have no hope of consistently landing nairs, there is no chance in help you will land uairs on grounded opponents; best move to approach with in the air vs. short people is IMO the SH FF knee. Landing lag is there, but the lag on the knee has short IASA frames, which you can use to jab. The autocancelled knee won't hit short opponents. (At least, I don't think it does)

With Brawl Captain Falcon, it's all about baiting and punishing. However if you must know, your best approaches are on the ground. You can try to grab someone if you think they will shield (my favorite way of doing this sometimes is running behind people for a Pivot grab). If you think you will do better if your opponent is above you, you could try for a Raptor Boost, although it's very punishable, and air dodging among other things make combos very hard for Falcon.

There was a thread a while ago praising the pivot grab for its usefulness, but I haven't yet been able to include this effectively into my game. If there were some vids up on this move showing it to be more effective than a regular grab/ being a good opener move, thatd be nice.

Honestly, I say your best approach is the Falcon kick in Brawl. It's been improved for a number of reasons. It seems to be one of few attacks Falcon has that has a bit more priority. It starts up faster than before and goes faster than he can run, so you can catch someone off guard with this. It also does more damage than the Raptor Boost, and if your opponent DOES shield this, your momentum will at least carry you far behind your opponent. It's his least punishable approach by far, and does better damage than most of the other attacks he would think of using for approaching.

I agree mostly, except the part where you say the kick's momentum will carry you behind your opponent if he shields it. Most of the time, the kick will actually leave you right in front of your opponent if they shield it. The kick pushes them back. Also, if your opponent shields this move, it really doesn't matter what side you end up on, you're still gonna eat %; if you are actually close enough for the kick to move you so far behind that you are not in danger, there are better options than going for a kick.

 

[KeyKid19]

BananaTrooper hit the nail on the head with his response. I have similar opinions about SH-GimpFair, SH-Dair (AC), Falcon Kick, and pivot grabbing.

 

[Ayaz18]

if the opponent (in this case i'll take MK) is SH his Fair, to approch i usually back up until he comes close then use falcon dive, it has surprisingly a lot of priority, however approching in the air is probably not an option

 

[CbGreiga]

Falcon can't even get close to projectile campers

 

[BananaTrooper]

When I posted my comments on the uair approach v. short people, I was thinking along the lines of approaching with the uair from the front (as in connecting with the hit in the very first few frames of the attack). I was messing around with the sandbag a couple days ago and realized that the back of the uair may actually be an approach alternative. I haven't used this in matches yet, so I can't comment on how effective of an approach this would be. I'll try it out next time I play. A2ZOMG, if you meant in your post to approach with the uair reversed, my comments earlier don't apply. But if this is what you meant, I assume that you've already incorporated this into your game; I'd very much like to see this used in either a vid or in matches (HINT: get your *** on AIM )

 

[domiNate]

When I posted my comments on the uair approach v. short people, I was thinking along the lines of approaching with the uair from the front (as in connecting with the hit in the very first few frames of the attack). I was messing around with the sandbag a couple days ago and realized that the back of the uair may actually be an approach alternative. I haven't used this in matches yet, so I can't comment on how effective of an approach this would be. I'll try it out next time I play. A2ZOMG, if you meant in your post to approach with the uair reversed, my comments earlier don't apply. But if this is what you meant, I assume that you've already incorporated this into your game; I'd very much like to see this used in either a vid or in matches (HINT: get your *** on AIM )

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=150844&highlight=uair

It wasn't highly discussed...

*Edit*
As I start thinking about it, I played around with this a lot when brawl first came out, but never really incorporated it. I guess I just find it really hard to RAR with falcon cause his initial dash is so long and most of the time I'm already in my opponents face after the initial dash.

 

[Iwan]

I manage to get people with it all the time <_<. It works best if they're at the edge of the stage. They'll probably try to roll dodge backwards and, if their timing is off, they'll get paunched.

lol...you really have to mind game people into falcon punch. It almost never happens against good players, but when you land it it's so, sooo satisfying. lol.

As for an aerial approach? Like others have said, falcon doesn't really approach that well in general. Nairs are good against taller/bigger characters. His Up Air can actually be a good approach move (for falcon), but there's timing to get down there. Falcon's forward air is a pretty decent approach, because you either sweet spot or cause a trip.

Really though, approaching from the air isn't always the best/safest way to go with the Captain. Like A2ZOMG mentioned in an earlier post, his overall best approach move is falcon kick. He gave all the reasons for why that is, so i won't bother getting into that...lol.

EDIT**--Also, i personally like approaching with a dash>>Up Smash. You get some really, really nice distance on it that tends to take opponents by suprise. Kdonewiththispost

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't understand what you mean when you say the dair should never be used with a shorthop. In fact, I'd say the only time this is a viable move is when it's used with a shorthop. This move can be autocancelled, which is a very nice pro (and yes, it is very possible to autocancel this everytime; if you're having trouble with autocancelling this move and are using a GC controller, PM me and I can try and help you). While it isn't perhaps the greatest approach move, it is a good way to punish dash attack spammers. Approach wise, if you have no hope of consistently landing nairs, there is no chance in help you will land uairs on grounded opponents; best move to approach with in the air vs. short people is IMO the SH FF knee. Landing lag is there, but the lag on the knee has short IASA frames, which you can use to jab. The autocancelled knee won't hit short opponents. (At least, I don't think it does)

Okay yeah, I forgot you could autocancel D-airs.

But the problem is the D-air is very hard to hit with because the hitbox is very narrow. The aerial ending lag on the D-air is also worse than that of his other aerial attacks, which are much easier to hit with anyway for the most part. Now...what's cool is if you can land a D-air on an aerial opponent and techchase them.

I agree mostly, except the part where you say the kick's momentum will carry you behind your opponent if he shields it. Most of the time, the kick will actually leave you right in front of your opponent if they shield it. The kick pushes them back. Also, if your opponent shields this move, it really doesn't matter what side you end up on, you're still gonna eat %; if you are actually close enough for the kick to move you so far behind that you are not in danger, there are better options than going for a kick.

Better options than going for a kick? Tell me what does more than 14% damage when it hits, and leaves you hard to punish if you miss.

Well, the things that do more damage are things like Jabs, Smashes, and maaaaaybe the U-tilt (can't remember how much damage it does). Aerials are normally out of the question because they aren't easy to hit with. Throws only do 13% max, and I highly doubt Falcon has a throw that does 13%.

Well I dunno, you tell me lol.

 

[BananaTrooper]

Okay yeah, I forgot you could autocancel D-airs.

But the problem is the D-air is very hard to hit with because the hitbox is very narrow. The aerial ending lag on the D-air is also worse than that of his other aerial attacks, which are much easier to hit with anyway for the most part. Now...what's cool is if you can land a D-air on an aerial opponent and techchase them.

I think you underestimate the hitbox of the dair; it's actually fairly manageable, and if you're comfortable with Acing the move it does lead to moves like SH nairs and uairs. My success with the ACed dair has actually been quite reasonable, and it's definitely part of my game.

About the tech chase part, I think you're dreaming. If you don't take the initiative to follow through on a successful dair, your opponent will counter it/jump.

Better options than going for a kick? Tell me what does more than 14% damage when it hits, and leaves you hard to punish if you miss.

Well, the things that do more damage are things like Jabs, Smashes, and maaaaaybe the U-tilt (can't remember how much damage it does). Aerials are normally out of the question because they aren't easy to hit with. Throws only do 13% max, and I highly doubt Falcon has a throw that does 13%.

Well I dunno, you tell me lol.

The point is that Falcon is completely exposed if you do miss, regardless of where you end up: it is in no way difficult to punish a wiffed kick. When you're that close to your opponent, chances are you're either being attacked or their defending against you; a kick isn't difficult to simply shield (though I suppose it can be worked into your attacks for a mixup). There are far lass punishable options, such as grabbing, u tilt, down tilt, and jabs. A move can't be simply rated on the % it does, knockback is also very important. Kick sends you up, and if you're close enough as to be able to have aforementioned alternatives, it's difficult to follow up. Falcon actually chains reasonable well, so moves like his tilts, jabs, uair and nairs work well in either setting up players up and in front of you (best place), or following up moves that do. The percent isn't bad either, in fact I'd go as far as to say I do more % by chaining things like jab->grabbing ->pummel->throw -> potential aerial than a straightforward kick. Keeping momentum is key, without it falcon has nothing.

That being said, I in no way disagree the kick is an amazing approach (IMO it's his best). I use it when I'm barely in range, or I can see a dash attack coming from my opponent. Kicking at such a distance will send opponents upward, leaving you in a better position to follow up as opposed to you being too far ahead.

 

[domiNate]

I don't know, I have to disagree with falcon kick approaching. I think you can pull it off a few times on a new opponent, but it's very easy to adapt to. The start up lag is enough to get a spot dodge in and the after lag is enough to punish. In my opinion, falcon's best approaches are a late nair only getting the one kick out or an AC'd dair.

 

[BananaTrooper]

I don't know, I have to disagree with falcon kick approaching. I think you can pull it off a few times on a new opponent, but it's very easy to adapt to. The start up lag is enough to get a spot dodge in and the after lag is enough to punish. In my opinion, falcon's best approaches are a late nair only getting the one kick out or an AC'd dair.

I did not mean to use the kick as a "lone move in a open field" kinda way (I hope that got across). I include every move that can consistently gain me momentum when I've lost it as an approach (as in, your opponent is currently calling the shots, and you're on defense trying not to get hit).

But yes, I agree using the kick solely to lessen the physical distance between you and your opponent is a bad idea. If you start the kick, you have to be confident it will connect; either the kick out prioritizes w/e move your opponent is trying to land on you (dash attacks and the like), or it comes out fast enough to catch them off guard. I agree you're not gonna hit anyone if you strictly use this move as an opener while your opponent is camping you.

 

[domiNate]

Ok, I get what you're saying now. You gott flippin think fast for that stuff then. I'd probably just look for a grab opening or Ac'd dair instead, but that's my personal play style.

 

[IcantWin]

Well, depending on who you're facing, aerial approaches can be used. Recovering from a stage, I NAir to protect myself if my opponent is setting a spike up, and surprisingly, it's always hit first.

You have to be very careful about the characters with disjointed hitboxes, Zelda for example. Don't have much time now, but ill post later on tonight if I can.

UAirs help too! ^^

 

[flash7]

Falcon can't even get close to projectile campers

Thats not entirely true. Alot of projectiles can be knocked away with his auto turbo jab such as pikas lightning attack (neutral b). Im not sure if it works with links projectiles (arrows and boomerang) which ill test out tomorrow, but the ones that cant be jab cancelled you should power shield.

I used to get destroyed by my friends lucas and his pk fires, but after a bit of practice (taking pk fires to the face) Ive gotten pretty good at powershielding. So he doesnt really use them as much anymore or only when he thinks I cant power shield it.

As for the falcon kick I think it serves as a everynow and then move. At low percentages even hitting with it can put you in a position to get hit by an aerial. I dont think it would work at long distances since your opponent can react to it. If you are very close I prefer the raptor boost since it launches and you might be able to follow up with an uair or something.

The general idea would be to mix up your approach since each method has its weaknesses which tend to be more than the advanteges.

 

[KeyKid19]

Falcon Kick > Approaching opponents. Gets them everytime (especially slow runners).

Some projectiles can be clinked with Raptor Boost or Falcon Kick, so you can just spam them until you're close. Otherwise you can get "tech-y" and Dash -> Perfect Shield -> Dash -> Perfect Shield over and over.

 

[IcantWin]

Falcon Kick > Approaching opponents. Gets them everytime (especially slow runners).

Some projectiles can be clinked with Raptor Boost or Falcon Kick, so you can just spam them until you're close. Otherwise you can get "tech-y" and Dash -> Perfect Shield -> Dash -> Perfect Shield over and over.

My only problem with a Falcon Kick approach is how easily punishable it is (in my experience at least).

It seems that at lower percents, an enemy will either just take it and grab you, shield + grab you, or perfect shield + grab you. The lag coming out of it seems as though it makes the move too punishable.

However, I find it VERY useful when making an approach from a recovery. Off-stage coming back (as long as you're high enough and still have your second jump), can prove to be a good method of canceling any aerial priority that may be used against you as you come down.

 

[KeyKid19]

My only problem with a Falcon Kick approach is how easily punishable it is (in my experience at least).

It seems that at lower percents, an enemy will either just take it and grab you, shield + grab you, or perfect shield + grab you. The lag coming out of it seems as though it makes the move too punishable.

However, I find it VERY useful when making an approach from a recovery. Off-stage coming back (as long as you're high enough and still have your second jump), can prove to be a good method of canceling any aerial priority that may be used against you as you come down.

Well if you use it against an approaching foe, it really isn't punishable. Unless they're REALLY accurate with their grabs (like CPU accurate). Otherwise the charging foe is too worried about thinking their approach through that they get surprised by the quick and long Falcon Kick.

 

[domiNate]

I disagree, the fact that he shouts falcon before he kicks gives them enough time to react with a dodge or roll and punish you.

 

[KeyKid19]

I disagree, the fact that he shouts falcon before he kicks gives them enough time to react with a dodge or roll and punish you.

If they're approaching and they actually DO react in time to dodge or roll one of three things will happen:

Roll forward - You pass through them and are a significant distance away from them.
Roll backward - Depending on the timing you could hit them just as they finish the roll animation or you will go through them. Either way you'll probably be able to get a shield going before they can do much anyways. But honestly I've done this tactic many times and NO ONE has EVER done this so who cares.
Spot Dodge - You pass through them and are a significant distance away from them.

But honestly they won't react in time if you wait until they've dashed from a ways away to fairly close up. Seriously. I've done this many many times and it always works. It doesn't come up that often though. I'm talking like you're on essentially opposite sides of Final Destination and they dash to approach and you just wait there and time it right. If you do it right they will get hit. I'd be happy to demonstrate for anyone who doubts.

 

[Ayaz18]

Grab............as much as you can

 

[Reaver197]

Too bad grab range sucks, and dash grabbing is horrible.

They should've had Falcon have at least one clear and obvious strength. But, noooo, they just suck.

 

[Ayaz18]

Too bad grab range sucks, and dash grabbing is horrible.

They should've had Falcon have at least one clear and obvious strength. But, noooo, they just suck.

yeah, but it's all we got

 

[Tenki]

How about sliding shield grab ._.;

You know, with his velocity and all.

 

[KeyKid19]

How about sliding shield grab ._.;

You know, with his velocity and all.

Initial dash is too long though. By the time you get out of it it's pretty much time to stop running. lol So you can't shield grab easily.

Grabbing is no easy task in Brawl with Falcon.

 

[Tenki]

more approach... ideas lol

i know i'm just throwing ideas around but...

-How about sliding spot dodge>grab?

-'tipping' with d-tilt, f-tilt?

and atm i'm not by my wii, but i'll throw this out there just in case it works
- delayed dash attack?
[initial dash] (delay during stop animation) [attack]
goes into a dash attack from what looks like a standing position. It's mentioned in Ivysaur's "AT's" (PT section AT's), and it works for Sonic. Grab can also substitute attack on this one.