Critical flaw?

[Ayaz18]

sometimes i like to use a dashing attack (shoulder ram.....thingie) straight to up tilt, it actually combos in, my bro uses marth and he can't use Fair fast enough to counter, but im pretty sure he could air dodge

 

[PentaSalia]

I also have trouble dash grabbing, and grabbing in general, thought it was only me. CF is good, I play him as a speedier substitute for Ganon for speedier opps. Think CF shines better at stage egde or in air. As someone mentioned, his attacks all seem to hit better in air, and his side B is just amazing when an opponent comes after you near the edge, as well as the wall of tilts, though it all takes some practice.

 

[CbGreiga]

Falcon has a definite problem with shield pushing moves. They always lead into a grab or Dsmash

 

[Ilucamy]

I always approach with one of his specials. I like dashing towards them and doing a short hopped Falcon Kick, it's pretty unexpected, the only problem in the landing lag. You can also do the short-hopped Raptor boost, even if they shield, you get a little pop up that makes it so they can't shield grab you. Every once in a while I also throw in a 360 Falcon Punch just to change things up. It works far more than you would imagine.

 

[KeyKid19]

Sorry, Falcon Punch does not work in a competitive singles match. Seriously, it will not work. Raptor Boost is also not a very good option, because even if you SH it, your bounce takes so long and has such horrid landing lag that you can easily get Fsmashed by any character. Falcon Kick is a good approach, but SH-ing it is dumb.

 

[Tenki]

IMO if you must use a Falcon Punch, forward Falcon Punches work best. They're much faster than 180/360 punches, and if you want to hit behind you, just do a b-reversal (tap opposite direction first)

 

[KeyKid19]

Eh, I think that the Reverse Punch CAN be useful. I know it's slower but sometimes it works out all right. No matter which way you do it you can't really use it more than like once every 3 matches or so usually so it's not really that big of a deal.

 

[Ilucamy]

Falcon Kick is definitely the best approach, but it becomes really obvious to people I've previously played, so sometimes I jump before I do it, it's not as effective, but it gets the job done and they don't predict it. And I have once gotten in 3 Falcon Punches in a 1 v 1 match (3 stock) with my friend. I got 2 in on a LVL 9 once though, which I think is a pretty amazing feat. ( 1 v 1/3 stock)

 

[Moustachio]

Well, if you want an airial approach that will not lead to a shield grabbed Falcon...you could use his airial bside. Usually, I see three results while doing this.

1. Contact onto opponent's character (Success!)
2. Contact onto opponent's character while they are shielding (This causes Falcon to do a little bounce right over and avoiding the opponent).
3. Opponent's attack (Usually an airial) contacts with Falcon first due to priority (Fail...T_T).

 

[Tenki]

2. Contact onto opponent's character while they are shielding (This causes Falcon to do a little bounce right over and avoiding the opponent).

Don't forget the part where Falcon lands and gets attacked during his delay :[

 

[KeyKid19]

Don't forget the part where Falcon lands and gets attacked during his delay :[

Yeah, seriously. I wouldn't be surprised if a resourceful Ganondorf could get a Warlock Punch in by the time you're done lagging.

 

[∫unk]

Approach with grab, f-tilt and d-tilt have surprisingly good range. B-air, auto-cancelled n-air and cross up d-air are good too. Mix it up with Falcon kick and Raptor boost.

Empty short hops air dodge and empty cross ups work too.

 

[KeyKid19]

Approach with grab, f-tilt and d-tilt have surprisingly good range. B-air, auto-cancelled n-air and cross up d-air are good too. Mix it up with Falcon kick and Raptor boost.

Empty short hops air dodge and empty cross ups work too.

- Grabs have horrible reach
- Ftilt requires you to either be walking or standing still (not good for Falcon). Range is still less than any sword/blade user except maybe Toon Link and Metaknight (both outprioritize you though anyways)
- Dtilt has same problems as Ftilt but has a better knockback trajectory
- Bair is good but shieldable
- Nair is a horrid approach now due to its lack of priority AND Falcon's increased SH height
- Dair is ok at best and that's only if you autocancel it
- Falcon Kick is good. Should be used WAY more than any of these other moves
- Raptor Boost is eh. If he didn't flop on the ground it would be a much better move

 

[Tenki]

Ay, I've been using late, FF N-air recently

Since it autocancels (I think?), you can combo it into a short 'infinite' jab and get at least 20 damage from all of it, or go for the YES! combo

 

[∫unk]

- Grabs have horrible reach
- Ftilt requires you to either be walking or standing still (not good for Falcon). Range is still less than any sword/blade user except maybe Toon Link and Metaknight (both outprioritize you though anyways)
- Dtilt has same problems as Ftilt but has a better knockback trajectory
- Bair is good but shieldable
- Nair is a horrid approach now due to its lack of priority AND Falcon's increased SH height
- Dair is ok at best and that's only if you autocancel it
- Falcon Kick is good. Should be used WAY more than any of these other moves
- Raptor Boost is eh. If he didn't flop on the ground it would be a much better move

Walking is fine if you're in initial dash distance. You obviously don't use it all the time since that's predictable, but it's a similar situation with Marth and his tilts (except his are way better).

You either didn't read carefully or don't know what cross up is. His b-air, n-air and d-air are only unusable against people with fast d-smashes.

Falcon Kick can be shielded as easily as the other attacks. And it gets out prioritized by the same things you're criticizing the other moves for.

 

[KeyKid19]

Walking is fine if you're in initial dash distance. You obviously don't use it all the time since that's predictable, but it's a similar situation with Marth and his tilts (except his are way better).

You either didn't read carefully or don't know what cross up is. His b-air, n-air and d-air are only unusable against people with fast d-smashes.

Falcon Kick can be shielded as easily as the other attacks. And it gets out prioritized by the same things you're criticizing the other moves for.

Walking is not that great no matter where you are. Since Falcon has such horrid reach, you pretty much need to get in and get out quickly. If you're that close to your opponent chances are they can already reach you and are ****** you (Marth and friends).

Why would they be useful against people with fast Dsmashes? I don't understand that.

Falcon Kick actually has better priority than just about everything else Falcon's got. That's why it's so useful against Olimar and Metaknight. It clinks all of Olimar's long range attacks (and some short range ones) and also clinks many of Metaknight's attacks (including the dreaded Tornado). That benefit plus its quickness and range make it much more valuable than any of those moves I criticized. Falcon Kick can be used outside of sword rapeage range. The same cannot be said regarding those other moves.

 

[Ayato]

You either didn't read carefully or don't know what cross up is. His b-air, n-air and d-air are only unusable against people with fast d-smashes.

Falcon Kick can be shielded as easily as the other attacks. And it gets out prioritized by the same things you're criticizing the other moves for.

B-air is best used for hitting their backside, else you get shield grabbed. D-smashes and attacks out of shields are not the problem here. It's shield grabbing.

N-air is useless against short people. If you can prove me wrong on this, please do, because that would basically fix all of Captain Falcon's approaching problems. In fact, n-air is generally useless because of the crappy angle of Falcon's legs and (as key mentioned) the height of his SH.

D-air is OKAY. Dashing autocancels are what make it moderately effective.

Falcon Kick can be shielded (and actually grabbed during the middle of a shield sequence) easily, but it out prioritizes or clanks a decent amount of ground attacks. It's easily one of his better approaches. If you aren't using this move, you aren't using Falcon properly.

Now stop necro'ing dead, useless threads like these. We have like 4 threads written to similar affects all on the front page. Not to mention I've said everyting I've said in this post at least 10 times in other ones. Key and Banana have reiterated these points enough as well.

 

[Proverbs]

Just a thought, may have already been said, but why not approach defensively? I know that's nearly an oxymoron, but why not approach with airdodges, spotdodges, and shields? This way you don't get destroyed by a camper and can get yourself within the proper distance of your opponent.

Of course approaching with shields might not be a great idea on someone like Marth (Shieldbreaker o_X;; ), but this could be a great way to engage your opponent. You might even be able to get a free shield grab in there leading to a couple chaingrabbed f-throws (I've heard the f-throw chaingrabs a bit but I'm still a n00b Falcon). Does anyone do this?

Also, I use Falcon Kick when starting on platforms like Pokemon Stadium 1 or 2 or Battlefield. It works decently well, actually. I usually score a free first hit.

Another thing is we should probably take a look into Falcon's best stages and develop stage specific strategies that will ease his playing style. I'm doing that right now with Ness and Green Greens. I'm thinking that stage specific strategies are going to be extremely important in Brawl tournaments in the future. Making use of all that is available to you is key, particularly to Falcon.

Oh, and don't forget wall jumping. Any advantage should be used. This would be an interesting way to take out edgehoggers. On somewhere like FD you could wall jump the inside of the lip, maybe have time for a sweet or sour spotted knee and make it back to the stage and edgeguard.

Just throwing ideas out there. I'm probably going to do my best to see what I can develop for Falcon as far as stage strategies and overall playing strategies for him. The underdogs can always be resurrected. Just ask Simna.

 

[KeyKid19]

Just a thought, may have already been said, but why not approach defensively? I know that's nearly an oxymoron, but why not approach with airdodges, spotdodges, and shields? This way you don't get destroyed by a camper and can get yourself within the proper distance of your opponent.

Of course approaching with shields might not be a great idea on someone like Marth (Shieldbreaker o_X;; ), but this could be a great way to engage your opponent. You might even be able to get a free shield grab in there leading to a couple chaingrabbed f-throws (I've heard the f-throw chaingrabs a bit but I'm still a n00b Falcon). Does anyone do this?

Also, I use Falcon Kick when starting on platforms like Pokemon Stadium 1 or 2 or Battlefield. It works decently well, actually. I usually score a free first hit.

Another thing is we should probably take a look into Falcon's best stages and develop stage specific strategies that will ease his playing style. I'm doing that right now with Ness and Green Greens. I'm thinking that stage specific strategies are going to be extremely important in Brawl tournaments in the future. Making use of all that is available to you is key, particularly to Falcon.

Oh, and don't forget wall jumping. Any advantage should be used. This would be an interesting way to take out edgehoggers. On somewhere like FD you could wall jump the inside of the lip, maybe have time for a sweet or sour spotted knee and make it back to the stage and edgeguard.

Just throwing ideas out there. I'm probably going to do my best to see what I can develop for Falcon as far as stage strategies and overall playing strategies for him. The underdogs can always be resurrected. Just ask Simna.

You're totally right with the "defensive offense" idea. Depending on the character it can be a very useful strategy with Falcon. Some people use it more than others around here (I tend to not use it very much but I know others who do a lot).

Fthrow chaingrab is not worth it imo. Your best bet 9 times out of 10 is to just Dthrow and followup after that because it puts your opponent in one of Falcon's most advantageous positions. Fthrow can be good, but I don't really think that chainthrow is worth very much in his game. If you try it and like it though, go for it.

Like I said in another thread where you posted the same thing about Falcon Kick, yes, it works, but if you repeat it against the same opponent you're likely to get smacked. Just be careful. I use the strategy myself but sometimes you'll bite it hard if they're ready for it.

The problem with Falcon is that there's no stage that really gives him any advantage more than it gives his opponent. Sure there are some better stages for him, but overall they are good stages for pretty much everyone. Sure there are obvious stages to shy away from depending on your matchup (don't pick FD against Spacies, Links *sic*, DeDeDe, etc. for obvious reasons), but I've yet to find a handful of stages that he plays really well at. Honestly the only stage that gives him an advantage in my opinion is Pirate Ship. The water is really helpful if you can get people in it, he has the speed to dodge the hazards, he can UpB through the deck on the bow for a nice 14% or whatever it is, and you can Dair your heart out thanks to both the water and the sloped deck surface (you'll slide a nice distance from your opponent after landing which is REALLY cool). Beyond Pirate Ship though, I'd say just pray that your tourney host allows Port Town for some reason, then pick there and let the F-Zero magic come forth.

Eh, walljumping is a bit too risky for me. The best possible outcome is arguably not any better than a normal edgeguard, and the worst possible outcome (dying) is much more likely than on a normal edgeguard. Walljumping also has very bad cooldown lag, which limits its usefulness even further. Plus the Knee is so inconsistent that you're much better off just hopping of the stage backwards and Bairing or Reverse Uairing.

I like your creative approach to Falcon though. Keep it up and keep working on your game. I look forward to more contributions from you. As you can tell there's not a whole great deal of worthwhile action in this board most of the time, so feel free to post whatever whimsical ideas you have. Anything helps. And posting in those threads is a lot more fun than posting over and over on the 500th+ page of "Why Falcon Sucks" threads.

 

[Proverbs]

^Thanks. For some reason I end up making more contributions on characters that aren't my number one main. I have no clue why. Maybe that's why my Marth game is lacking now (*is picking up the slack in that area*).

Anyway, I hope to see what I can contribute for Falcon. I think there's a lot that Falcon can do and we just need to tap into it. Anything that Falcon has at his disposal should be used. Anything. Even risky walljumping. Anything.

If Simna could make Ness work, I believe we can make Falcon work--and I'm willing to contribute to that.

 

[KeyKid19]

If Simna could make Ness work, I believe we can make Falcon work--and I'm willing to contribute to that.

Honestly I'd rather be Falcon than Ness. There's no matchup in Falcon's game that is even remotely as bad as Marth vs. Ness. lol

 

[Proverbs]

True, but that's one matchup. The release grab honestly barely scratches Ness in the long run from my experience. As you can see, my secondary is Ness, and I'm also convinced that no matter what the release grab does, he's still an amazing character and was in every smash game. It'd be pretty hard to convince me otherwise.

 

[Sephiroth27]

True, but that's one matchup. The release grab honestly barely scratches Ness in the long run from my experience. As you can see, my secondary is Ness, and I'm also convinced that no matter what the release grab does, he's still an amazing character and was in every smash game. It'd be pretty hard to convince me otherwise.

Link has been in every smash game too! I sooo did not realize how awesome of a character he is!!!! ****, he's really good!

 

[KeyKid19]

True, but that's one matchup. The release grab honestly barely scratches Ness in the long run from my experience. As you can see, my secondary is Ness, and I'm also convinced that no matter what the release grab does, he's still an amazing character and was in every smash game. It'd be pretty hard to convince me otherwise.

Ness/Lucas is a dying breed. All anyone has to do to beat even the best Ness/Lucas in the world is to just counterpick to Marth after losing the first match. From there on, game over. That's why Ness/Lucas will never win any tourneys. Ever.

 

[Proverbs]

So wrong. Any good Ness player is going to be aware of that type of thing. And if the person doesn't main Marth they'll get owned for using a character they're horrible with before even grabbing. And even then they need to hold R and mash A at light speed--otherwise they'll only get around 20%. Although it's technically infinite, in practice people can usually only score 20-40% in my experience. My friend has escaped it pretty easily when I used it on him and I've seen it escaped multiple times otherwise.

 

[Sephiroth27]

So wrong. Any good Ness player is going to be aware of that type of thing. And if the person doesn't main Marth they'll get owned for using a character they're horrible with before even grabbing. And even then they need to hold R and mash A at light speed--otherwise they'll only get around 20%. Although it's technically infinite, in practice people can usually only score 20-40% in my experience. My friend has escaped it pretty easily when I used it on him and I've seen it escaped multiple times otherwise.

Your logic is very, very familiar.

1. Being "aware" of something doesn't mean that it won't happen.
2. You don't need to main a character to be good with them. (ex. Azen)

Seriously though, back to the whole "aware" thing, if I was "aware" that DSF is a better player than me, does that mean my chances of winning are higher?

I would bet money you're the type of person that also thinks "Any character can be good if you use them correctly."

 

[KeyKid19]

Yeah, exactly what Sephiroth said, only I'm inclined to not say things so harshly (most of the time lol). Just because I am aware of the fact that Metaknight outprioritizes everything I do and his Tornado is ridiculous doesn't mean I can necessarily do anything about it. Awareness is of course a good thing but in a lot of cases (like Falcon v. Metaknight and Ness v. Marth) there's nothing awareness does for you.

Also, I can shieldgrab pretty confidently with any character. It doesn't take me knowing their moves and how to play as them if I'm just trying to grab you. Besides, if I was the Marth I'd also have a character advantage over you, so you'd have to be better than me in the first place for us to even be equal in the matchup. Plus anyone with half a brain knows how to use Marth's Side B and AA hits, which are more than enough trouble for Ness to have to deal with on top of looking out for getting infinited. Also, even if people only get 20%-40% (which I'm sure the best Marths out there get a LOT more than that), that's still 20%-40% more than you were before the grab. Seriously. 20%-40% is a LOT in Smash. All they have to do is grab you three times tops and you're perfectly able to be killed by Marth. No one can win against that.

 

[Proverbs]

In competitive gaming playing characters takes a lot more than knowing two moves. Playing with a random unfamiliar character against someone whose main is Ness and knows how to use him effectively is suicide. The Ness won't sit there and let you grab him and if you're just pulling out Dancing Blade he can just as easily anticipate that. You put yourself at a huge disadvantage for some stupid trick that's not even that easy to pull off. And there's so much time in between grabs that if you're getting 20-40% each, you might score 120% by the end of the match due to the release grab if you're not familiar with Marth. So you'll score one cheap stock and I'll three stock you in a four stock match.

And about any character being good, no, I don't think any character can be good if you use him correctly. But I do believe that any character can be used professionally. You simply have to be faster, better, smarter, and more in tune with your character than your opponent. That's why people can win matches in which they have a bad matchup.

If you don't think any character can be used well, then what in the world are you doing playing Falcon in Brawl? If it's all about tiers go play Pikachu in 64, Fox in Melee, and Snake in Brawl and don't come to a bottom tier board.

Sorry if that was harsh, but you guys seriously know nothing about Ness. It's the same thing with people who think that Falcon uses his n-air to approach and nothing else. The release grab barely scratches Ness and I can see Ness winning a lot more tournaments than Falcon.

Sorry again if I flipped out a bit. I'm not in a great mood.

 

[KeyKid19]

The only way Ness would ever win a tourney is if there is not one single good Marth there. And that's never the case. End of story. Even if a pro Ness could beat a scrub Marth, he WON'T beat a good Marth.

People win in matches when they have a bad matchup because they are better players than their opponents. No pro Meta will ever lose to a Falcon. Ever. Unless the Falcon is a significantly better player than the Metaknight player is. Honestly Falcon v. Meta is almost as bad as Ness/Lucas v. Marth. If not for Falcon Kick it probably would be as bad.

 

[Sephiroth27]

Let's also not forget the actual skill that is required to continually grab Ness. First you need to grab him, and that can be accomplished many ways, but most would just shield grab. It's very, very, very easy to get shield grabbed. After that, they need to hold R and press A repeatedly.

Other things that should be pointed out:

-The action of pressing A repeatedly to keep on grabbing Ness does not need to be "lightning fast."

-Even if Ness breaks out early, it's easy to get another grab in.

Remember, Brawl has a focus on defense. You'll be able to get many grabs in.

And on another note, just because we main Falcon doesn't mean we don't know anything about any other characters. It's not like we're limited to only play/study our mains.

 

[Proverbs]

Agree to disagree? It's hard to discuss intelligibly on the subject as we have opinions that differ from the core.

 

[Kirby M.D.]

Ness/Lucas is a dying breed. All anyone has to do to beat even the best Ness/Lucas in the world is to just counterpick to Marth after losing the first match. From there on, game over. That's why Ness/Lucas will never win any tourneys. Ever.

Not to continue a ****y discussion, but this is what secondary characters are for. You run into someone the Mother kids have a problem with, switch to someone different. People can play as other characters in a tourney mang.

 

[KeyKid19]

Not to continue a ****y discussion, but this is what secondary characters are for. You run into someone the Mother kids have a problem with, switch to someone different. People can play as other characters in a tourney mang.

I agree. Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to bust out a secondary who's much better than Marth. I mean I guess if your secondary was one of Marth's harder matchups and you were actually really good with him/her then yeah I guess you could pull something off. But if you're that good with a secondary maybe you should not be maining Lucas/Ness. lol

The more I think about it, the more I think counterpicking to Metaknight and then Tornado spamming could be the answer for everyone who mains low/bottom tier characters. lol

 

[Proverbs]

I agree. Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to bust out a secondary who's much better than Marth. I mean I guess if your secondary was one of Marth's harder matchups and you were actually really good with him/her then yeah I guess you could pull something off. But if you're that good with a secondary maybe you should not be maining Lucas/Ness. lol

The more I think about it, the more I think counterpicking to Metaknight and then Tornado spamming could be the answer for everyone who mains low/bottom tier characters. lol

Eugh...if you think you can win tournaments by picking Metaknight and spamming Tornado against a Marth then I guess Brawl's competitive scene really has gone down the tube.

Metaknight uses Tornado. Marth uses Counter. End of story.

Marth has an even matchup on Metaknight and has no bad matchups, only even ones and good ones (maybe except one or two, I think Snake might have the upper hand).