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Quoting this for absolute truth. I must say I was utterly disgusted when I read the OP. You are using the exact same means to IMPOSE your ideals as do or did the dictatorships that hide behind communism. You made an agreement with the small group of people with power (the biggest TOs) and decided upon a standard ruleset made from a compromise based on subjectif criteria (or maybe just feelings) with NO request of approval from the community and have decided that our game's only media (SWF and allisbrawl) will be greatly prioritizing tournaments following their ruleset!given the way that they're attempting to force this through it's not entirely a bad analogy, this wasn't really agreed on by the community at large they're just trying to make it standard via manipulation of information(that is, not listing tournaments that use different rules)
And they still can. Why are people pretending your run-of-the-mill local was going to get sticky status anyways?I agree with raziek, this ruleset should only be utilized at national events, if some local wants to host a tournament using mansion, or using a 3 stage starter he should be allowed, however I believe this is a suitable compromise for national events.
This (and also what Tantalus has said). This is tournament directors/organizers/whatever you want to call them getting together and working together for the very first time. People that have actual resources to implement and test ideas.3. We'll have the ability to test changes in our own region. Let's say, for instance, that jungle japes (as it has been here) becomes a discussion for debate and needs to be tested not just in theory but in tournaments. The people that can do that are sitting right here in this group. I can test it in a MD tournament, while AZ can test it in an Ohio tournament. There are so many options. If we find that it is fit for competitive play among all our regions then we may amend it. The same goes for Pictochat as a counterpick.
You guys need to put some logic behind this stagelist then, or some kind of criteria.1. This will be the "BBR ruleset", despite Crow saying it isn't. .
Just ban Pictochat with your stage ban.What a joke. Even if my activity as a TO wouldn't be limited to Europe I would never agree to use such an atrocious stage list.
Indeed. I have had high hopes on attending the next Apex and convincing a lot of fellow europeans to come along. But I have no intention to spend 1000€+ just to get lucked out on Pictochat by 100% random occurances, that you have no control over WHATSOVER and can kill you at 0%. Why don't you allow Wario Ware while we're on the subject? At least that stage is actually fun and goes along perfectly with the horrible lack of logic of this stage list.
this is still obviously handicapping him for a stage he doesn't feel should be legal, and he can just go to local tournaments and not have to deal with itJust ban Pictochat with your stage ban.
Let's assume for a minute you're right, and there's no truly quantifiable measure of when a game is more or less competitive. EVEN THEN, the community as a whole could come together and find reasonable criteria for when the game is more or less competitive. And no, I don't mean by popular opinion.you can't define competetive.
I've been stating this for a while, and before that, Raziek was advocating it heavily.A liberal stagelist would be tons more acceptable with 2 or more stage bans IMO.
"Interfere"? Dude, this is Brawl and I don't know why I have to keep reminding the Super Smash Bros community that SSB is a different game. I mean, you'd think being ridiculed by most other competitive communities for playing a "casual game" this seriously would do the trick. The stage literally attacks you is not a ****ing problem. It's an intentional design element in the game, and we as players are supposed to DEAL WITH IT.because most people prefer it to be player vs player instead of player vs player vs stage, while obviously other things such as platform layouts do affect gameplay, one has to draw the line somewhere as to how much the stage can interfere with gameplay before it has become a problem. "these platforms favor marth's aerial pressure game" is obviously a far cry from "the stage literally attacks you"
The stage has forced you to do something independant of the other player's actions. Okay... Like if you jump offstage on FD, you have to recover or die? I suppose this analogy is kinda bad, but really? Yes, you are forced to jump... or get hit by the lava. To quote the song "Room 429": "When you reach a brick wall, there is still a decision". You don't have to jump, you can eat lava.you're not looking at the entire picture, the stage isn't a problem if you look at it in one dimension "just jump and you don't get hit by the lava", but you now have a situation where the stage has FORCED you to do something independent of the other players actions. this is like me saying that meta knight's tornado should have a tractor beam so that it sucks anyone in from anywhere on the stage and there's no way to avoid it
that would be totally awesome though, can some of the hackers get on something like this?
Oh look, one character's qualities are better suited to a certain environment. Whodathunkit.still does damage and tends to hit one character more than the other. particularly strong ground characters while the lava might as well not exist for MK, GAW, and wario
No, but so what? FD has the stage doing absolutely nothing against that stream of lazers coming from across one of the largest legal stages. FD has the stage severely enabling chaingrabs and grab combos. FD has the stage offering you nowhere to run to.FD doesn't have stage created two pronged attacks where you have to choose between getting hit by lava or farted on or rufio'd
Well what is actually the problem? Is it that brinstar as a stage is broken? Somehow I doubt it; there are quite a lot of matchups that can run legitimately on the stage with no degeneracy. Is it that the characters are broken? Nah, doesn't seem like it; we've all seen top MKs lose.hazards, especially ones that are as constant as brinstar's, do not create depth, they destroy it. I'm sure everyone has seen M2K vs ally on that stage or DMG vs razer, fighting on brinstar is as one dimensional as the game gets. you replace reads, baits, and mindgames with "if I do THIS over and over again, they literally can't stop it"
It's more than you'd think.that's...one of the reasons it's an absolutely ridiculous stage
Even though we disagree on so many things... **** yeah this. **** pictochat.Indeed. I have had high hopes on attending the next Apex and convincing a lot of fellow europeans to come along. But I have no intention to spend 1000€+ just to get lucked out on Pictochat by 100% random occurances, that you have no control over WHATSOVER and can kill you at 0%. Why don't you allow Wario Ware while we're on the subject? At least that stage is actually fun and goes along perfectly with the horrible lack of logic of this stage list.
Seriously, THIS. Or WAS there even any reasoning? Or did you just take a vote (which remains one of the most stupid things you can do in a situation like this!)?Would it be possible to include an explanation on why specific stages were included or not included? Surely the decisions would be more comprehensible that way.
waits for the stage crew to ask where distant planet isI don't personally have a problem with picto...that stage has actually been pretty good to me on the occasion that it's been legal <_<
I think most would agree that
FD
BF
YI
SV
LC
CS
PS1
RC
Brinstar
Fino
Orpheon
Halberd
are standard stages. in spite of my griping about brinstar earlier, it's obviously a stage that is typically legal pretty much everywhere. some regions allow other stages at random such as japes or norfair, but these are an extreme minority and they tend to be...at random, japes may be legal in one region but not norfair and norfair may be legal in one region but not japes, there is no consensus even amongst the more liberal TO's as to which would be legitimate, and thus they aren't even borderline standard
Tesh: one step at a time. We will come out with a more comprehensive list when more tournament directors are added to the room. This is in its infancy.
this is the fundamental difference in philosophy that ensures we will never agree on this, you expect the stage to do at least some of the fighting for you. it's not fair that the stage isn't actively preventing falco from doing what falco does? cmon sonNo, but so what? FD has the stage doing absolutely nothing against that stream of lazers coming from across one of the largest legal stages.
And...people are still doing this throughout the thread even after this post.Guys, how the rules are going to be structured is not the topic of this discussion. There are countless other topics in which that can be discussed.
man you couldn't get shadowlink, MMM, and king beef to sign off on it, this stage list has no legitimacyThe BBR had absolutely nothing to do with this.
Overswarm does not approve.
All the nationals were already on board with making and uniting behind the same ruleset. Most of the tournaments that this policy would effect had already agreed to use the same rules before there was even a policy about stickies/coverage being talked about.the "this IS going to be standard because we moderate the forums" strategy is extremely questionable
That is absolutely horrible.Stickies on Smashboards will be limited only to tournaments using this ruleset, effective January 1st.
Not fair? I never implied that. The implication is that it is fair that the stage is, say, actively preventing Diddy from staying in the same place the whole match shooting peanuts behind a banana wall. You missed the point-Falco is abusing the stage on FD by camping and running his *** off just as much as, say, Wario is on brinstar by dair camping you effectively. And both of these are completely okay. And also... Appeal to ridicule is not an argument. I literally smashed exactly this logic in the last post; what you're doing is simply turning to the studio audience and pointing out an extreme example which, with common sense, seems wrong (but actually isn't). Compare to a debate between a supporter of relativity and someone who doesn't believe it turning to the studio audience and saying, "You honestly gonna belive this crap, that stuff literally gets heavier when it goes faster? And that you can't ever go beyond a certain speed? It's nonsense!"this is the fundamental difference in philosophy that ensures we will never agree on this, you expect the stage to do at least some of the fighting for you. it's not fair that the stage isn't actively preventing falco from doing what falco does? cmon son
10 thiss.You know the funny thing about this ruleset? Look who's hosting the tournaments, oh looky the TO's in the group. Hmm, it's their tournaments, they can make the stagelist whatever they want. They're even generous enough to be willing to expand their group to include other TOs and test different stages. It's not like there are any stages that are complete garbage on the list, a little consistency seems kinda nice.
Because when you have TOs that run tournaments, you have to get them to agree to all actually using a stage.
This ruleset initiative is fundamentally different than the previously labeled "BBR Recommended Ruleset". The difference is these are rules that will actually be practiced, not what rules could/should be in theory. There is a huge difference, and there is no point in including stages that TOs will refuse to use-it is simply not practical.
10 thiss.
I'll just have to raise more here until you remove the BBR's name for this and call it for what it is: smashboards admins deciding to muscle people into using their ruleset.All the top TO's are together on this and the admins from two sites (AllisBrawl/Smashboards) are on board with this. As the leader of the BBR and a senator of Smashboards, as well as having worked with the other admins going as far up as the GM of Smashboards (JV) that this is a new Committee of the BBR. It does not, nor would it have even been logical, to attempt to get an 70-80 person BBR to approve of the creation of a TO-only BBR.
There were also less than 10 people making complaints in the BBR. Overswarm does not at all speak for everybody, most of the supporters (as usual) are silent. Those that disapprove always make the most noise, this is a general truth in life.
Way to pay attention, AZ. No one ever WANTED universal acceptance. It wasn't the point. Universal acceptance isn't required or even necessary.While the work done by the BBR-at-large over the years never received the universal acceptance we were shooting for, there were many notable innovations to come out of the room
who said I was trying to have a legitimate debate with you? I've told you before I wouldn't bother, I'm just saying what I thinkAnd both of these are completely okay. And also... Appeal to ridicule is not an argument.
So the logical next step is "let's force everyone else to do it for their tournaments"?Because when you have TOs that run tournaments, you have to get them to agree to all actually using a stage.
This ruleset initiative is fundamentally different than the previously labeled "BBR Recommended Ruleset". The difference is these are rules that will actually be practiced, not what rules could/should be in theory. There is a huge difference, and there is no point in including stages that TOs will refuse to use-it is simply not practical.
10 thiss.
Be realistic. It's always been "whatever the hell TOs want". At least it will be uniform/standard.So it's "whatever the hell top TOs want"?
Because of everything you are seeing in this thread. There were, and still are, countless hurdles to get the Smash community under one ruleset. The site will NEVER adopt a policy that would prevent a TO from posting a tournament with different rules, however a policy on stickies is completely reasonable, especially when only about 5% (IF THAT) of tournaments even have a chance to get stickied anyways, and if you actually went and looked at the stagelists for tournaments that get stickied you will find they do not vary by more than 2 stages from the list posted here at current.Thank god. I have no idea why it's taken so long for this to happen.
Though I guess not supported at all would apply more in this case...Interceptor said:Don't be silly. You're not wrong because nobody is agreeing with you, you're wrong because your points are weak and poorly supported. The fact that people disagree with you is a symptom of being wrong, not the cause or the proof of it. Canary in the coal mine, so to speak.
Then why act like it should have any bearing? Your opinion doesn't matter, especially when it's LOGICALLY WRONG.who said I was trying to have a legitimate debate with you? I've told you before I wouldn't bother, I'm just saying what I think
Wait. Hang on a second. Guys, bear with me.there's nothing to be gained from me arguing in a more persuasive manner because most people agree with me anyway, I don't have to convince anyone of anything when almost no one would claim FD's lack of hazards is more of a problem than brinstars proliferation of them
Okay first of all: I am not irrational. If someone proves me wrong, and shows that hazards are eeeevil, then fair enough. I mean, I was really upset about SuSa's thread which seemed to prove, logically, that the ideal stagelist was 4 stages long (that is, until Jack and Raz proved the pretense wrong), but I was willing to accept it as correct. I've changed my stance somewhat regarding Norfair, Japes, and most notably Pictochat. I'm NOT irrational. But that also applies to tournament play. I got the **** gayed out of me on Japes in a friendly... by lucas. Did it change my perspective? Slightly, but I recognized that I'm not a good player, and that a good player would probably be able to deal with that sort of thing.I ridicule you because it entertains me, I know you're too stubborn to change your mind...until you play on this kind of stage in tournament and have something BS happen to you anyway, funny how experience is the only thing that really changes anything, typing up a massive wall of text on it is simply a waste of time
I'm just gonna quote this, because it's 100% correct and this ruleset is ridiculous.The BBR's ruleset is a take on balance. Competitive fairness. No matter what anyone says, we've tested it more than them and we vote fairly regularly on it. We tell someone "Yeah, we know you like Distant Planet. It hasn't proven to be broken yet. Good luck" when everyone else just says nothing but "it's gay". We tell the people that think every stage should be legal that, no, some of them need to be banned.
Your ruleset is just a compromise of multiple mindsets. It doesn't have anything to do with balance whatsoever.
"Stickies on Smashboards will be limited only to tournaments using this ruleset, effective January 1st. "
That is absolutely horrible.
I hope you reconsider this part. Everything else I support.
You know what the old "standard" touted by the BBR was? Of course you do. It was the ****ing BBR recommended ruleset! Which was, BTW, WAY ****ING BETTER THAN THIS. Now this is going to be the standard. It has no logical backing. It doesn't go about things logically, or even care about the individual communities. It's a blanket ruleset which is horribly illogical! We were WAY better off when it was whatever the TO wants on a local scale. Now it's "whatever consensus a group of top TOs can come to"!Be realistic. It's always been "whatever the hell TOs want". At least it will be uniform/standard.
And these "more and more tournaments"... How much say do they get?Right now it is just top TOs, but membership will expand to cover more and more tournaments, not just national-level-hosts.
Uh... What? The BBR Recommended Ruleset was TOTALLY applicable to real tournaments. The problem was, nobody ****ing did it! So now, instead of providing an ACTUAL COUNTERPOINT, you're going to encourage scrubby behavior from the community?As mentioned, the biggest change, and one that will be difficult for some of you to understand, is that this is a group made for action and based in reality with real, physical resources, and therefor the ability to effect real change. This is a huge shift from the BBR Recommended Ruleset, which was grounded in theory and was not practically applicable to real tournaments.
I didn't see you prove anything, I just saw you post a lot of opinions like I did and like other people have been doing, backed up only by YOUR ideal of what brawl is "supposed" to beI just logically proved something... And you all will disagree with me for no good reason and/or ignore that logic.
looking forward to it. I don't personally have a huge issue with these stages but I am curious what the reasoning is as to where the line gets drawn between stages like brinstar/picto and GG/japes/norfairI'd be happy to justify the stagelist, as it is the one for pound. I need a keyboard to do so, and not this mobile device. I will let you know my logic this afternoon. Raziek and I already discussed this, and I can tell you there were some disagreements we had, and a flaw with my logic before we even begin. But I have justification for the whole list. I spent weeks asking players about it and thinking about it.