CPU's Learn?

[pkkong]

a cpu edge hogged me before =\

 

[ZeroFox]

Surely if a CPU was made to learn new things, it would require an infinite amount of drive space because it would just keep learning all the time therefore taking up more data space to remember it.

It would be somewhat interesting if a CPU was able to "learn" how to beat a competitive Smash professional...

Pull off some Deep Blue stuff...

 

[Teran]

People shouldn't be shocked by CPUs edgehogging or melee CPUs l-cancelling. Edgehogging is a tactic the developers acknowledge, hence the edgehog bonus at the end of a match in melee if you pull it off (you don't get these bonuses in brawl but obviously the technique is still there.) As for l-cancelling, well that was mentioned in the game manual for melee, so obviously high level CPUs would use it to their advantage.

The idea that CPUs are imitating your playstyle isn't far fetched at all. Logging repeated button press combinations and incorporating it into its code isn't Terminator style AI. My CPU copies some of my Falco's moves, but it doesn't do it in the same way a human does, i.e. we understand that certain moves are situational and a CPU does not. So I say they imitate you to try and increase the difficulty and seem more human, but they only get halfway there.

 

[fromundaman]

Teran and Vv2 said it best. (This is kind of what some of us meant when we said "learn" though I think.) It really seems that it just does what you do most, but as you've all said, doesn't realize the situations in which to use them most of the time.

It also explains why after having let my noob friends play so much, Pikachu tends to spam thunder and Dsmash and Marth side-Bs non-stop.

 

[ArcaneCoder]

I spent a ton of time meteor smashing and spiking the life out of lvl 1 CPUs and now they do it to! haha it's so funny seeing a lvl 1 CPU meteor smash.

 

[Kefrius]

You know... I also thought I was the only one who tought that!
But yeah it is true, I start noticing on Melee but now that Ive heard more people thinking the same I think they really learn.

 

[BrawLBlazer]

I think it's true...once I used Falco and chain grabed then spiked my opponent (also a Falco), and then it chain grabbed me like twice and tried spiking me, but missed.

 

[streetracr77]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they learn your playstyle. One thing I've never seen a computer Jigglypuff do is her rest. Has anyone else seen this?

 

[Dr.Jo2229]

Well i think CPUs learn i have always used bowser on brawl and at first bowsers AI sucked but then i started playing EVEN more with bowser against lvl 9 CPUs intense difficulty and all the harder stuff and i played a 1v1 against a random CPU my opponen was another bowser and i said man this is gonna be easy but the AI had copied the way i played the same happened to my sister she uses zelda she just warps away and launches dins fire like crazy (which actually works...if it hits once) and the AI started doing that when using Zelda.

 

[M.K]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they learn your playstyle. One thing I've never seen a computer Jigglypuff do is her rest. Has anyone else seen this?

No.

10REST.

 

[themrskills]

I sometimes lie awake at nights crying after a CPU DDD chaingrabs me.

 

[fromundaman]

[...] she uses zelda she just warps away and launches dins fire like crazy (which actually works...if it hits once) and the AI started doing that when using Zelda.

Unless... you know, you shield walk or AD... Hell, sometimes you can even roll through it if you time it right.

 

[Tax]

I play A LOT of toon links over wi-fi. ATM, I have no wi-fi, so, I'm limited to playing CPUs. I picked Tink as my opponent and they did almost everything that my friends do over wi-fi! It's pretty scary, but at least you get competition from a CPU. Scratch that, you don't.

 

[raydude]

maybe the AI was programmed to learn ur move after to repetitive sequences

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I've used a jigglypuff's dair to rest combo and won. Then two matches later, I fought against a jigg and it dair rested me. I was all like WTF!! cpu jigg's don't do that!

 

[ungulateman]

A computer Snake Utilited me three times in a row yesterday.

/cry

 

[SonicBoom2]

When I first got Brawl, I set the CPU to lvl 9, just to get used to the physics.
They powershielded nearly every move I used!
Now they focus less on shielding and more on offensive.

Wolves always use SHL on me, Falco too.
Jigglypuffs are starting to WOP me.
DDD can do slight chaingrabs on me, before trying to kill me with Waddle Dee spam ''>_>

They are still predictable, but they become somewhat of a challenge eventually (which means right now, you haven't played in a few days)
Or you could always try 1 Human vs 3 LVL9 CPUs and see what happens after a bunch of matches

 

[metaike]

Hmmmm..... Intresting. Falco chaingrabbed me one day and spiked me???????????????????

 

[themrskills]

I have the ultimate proof that CPU's learn. On smashville, the CPUs will pop the balloon. Just try and tell me that's not epic.

 

[Sup Dawg]

It's true! CPU's learn your play style!

Every time I fight one it does a little better each time. :o

 

[Vv2]

It's true! CPU's learn your play style!

X1000 responses

1-Up post count

people stop posting things that have been posted 100x already

 

[NeoCrono]

My computer was Tink, and it Zaired to Hyphen smash.....

 

[Mr.Fakeman]

I played my friend's wii for 2 days and kept doing ShortHop Nair with FastFall all the time and every game. 1 day later COM Captain Falcons kept doing it, not every time now since I don't do it often anymore, what I did was more of a long time experiment so no Biggie.

 

[fromundaman]

X1000 responses

1-Up post count

people stop posting things that have been posted 100x already

And... your post goes completely ignored....

 

[ChivalRuse]

It's true! CPU's learn your play style!

Every time I fight one it does a little better each time. :o

That's called scrub degeneration. :/

CPU algorithms are set in stone once you buy the game. People who think that CPU's do different things are just noticing things they haven't noticed before, OR they are playing differently, and so CPU's react differently.

 

[ChivalRuse]

How clever they get in the future, they could never learn the awesomness of the dash dance.

N64 CPU's dash dance when you get a starman...

EDIT: Sorry for double post.

 

[Banks]

you guys do realize that brawl replays are not actual video, and are just CPU's copying perfectly what was done during that match. It isn't unbelievable at all that they would just do the same thing in game...

 

[RyanPF]

It wouldn't be hard to program a CPU to copy a technique that a player does well. I would make the CPU keep track of the sequence of the player's movements/attacks constantly. Then at the end of the match, it would look at the record and see that the player performed a certain combo successfully several times. All it has to do is create a record of the combo and the scenario in which it can be used, and during a match when that scenario presents itself, the CPU executes the combo. The only problems I can see would be that eventually the CPU would be checking for too many scenarios in each frame/step and it would slow down, but that could be remedied by deleting techniques that haven't been used in a while.

If it's true, players should be able to "teach" a CPU something like Yoshi's chain-release grab.
(Also, it's true that algorithms don't change, but all there has to be is a check for all recorded scenarios for techniques built into the algorithm)

 

[Jonkku]

you guys do realize that brawl replays are not actual video, and are just CPU's copying perfectly what was done during that match. It isn't unbelievable at all that they would just do the same thing in game...

Exactly..

If you have a hundred Captain Falcon ditto match replays saved, with 90% of them being Falcon Punch only matches.. I can say for sure that your Falcon CPU will use Falcon Punch alot!

CPU's check for what moves are used and what moves have the biggest accuracy % and then try to use those moves the most.. This is just my theory but it can be easily experimented..

Make replays of you owning someone by using only one move, and then fight a CPU, then delete the replays and do the same again with a different move. To get even more accurate results with a rick, deleting the whole save file could be tested. :/ But who's up for resetting the whole save.

Edit: Also, level 9 cpu's adapt to situations.. Go and counter a cpu who uses a strong move over and over again (Falcon Punch) a couple times.. Soon you'll notice that it won't use it so much during that match anymore. This I've tested.

 

[Vv2]

X1000 responses

1-Up post count

people stop posting things that have been posted 100x already

Maybe one day people will read the entire post before replying one day... instead of...You know i think i will rank it on a tool ratio

Generic reply post #1
"Its True CPU's Do learn"
(4/5 on the tool scale no reasoning no info just non disclosed opinion)
Generic reply post #2
"It wouldn't be hard to make the CPU to learn because of X"
(3/5 An attempt at reasoning and explanation which has been described before hand coupled with either the lack of knowledge on how to use the quote function or ability to type "I agree with X")
Generic reply post #3
"One time I was Playing and CPU did X to me and I do X all the time!"
(a Perfect 5/5 on the tool scale. No opinion No Statement No Idea even "one time I pushed a shopping cart and it moved" Yay for you ande gratz on your 1-Up)
Now don't be shy feel free to mix it up using one or all of the above to 1-Up your post count....

We can all agree the CPU learns or at least adapts to certain situations and events...

Since no one will read this and will continue posting the same generic responses treat this as an inside joke.

 

[AltF4]

No. They don't learn.

/thread

 

[RyanPF]

You're a mod. Mods say "/thread" by locking topics. XD

 

[luvs2pluck]

So about 2 months ago my roommate and I started popping the balloon in smashville every time it appears (usually going far out of the way to do it). A few weeks later we noticed the computer would pop the balloon occasionally, but only when we weren't near them, like I have a replay of a cpu falco running away from me and dairing a balloon while I was recovering.

Anyway, we have probably around 8-9 replays now of legit balloon popping incidents (and not crappy ones like mk using nado on us and hitting the balloon) saved on the wii. We also have about 5 vids of the cpu crouch taunting and 1 vid of captain falcon dash dancing as a taunt after a kill.

I want to edit them together and post it here, but I dont have an sd card. I was wondering if I got one for like $15, then I could transfer them to my laptop and edit them right?

P.S. Jigglypuff uses rest rarely, and cpus don't airdodge dins fire when far enough offstage, but will always dodge when onstage or near.

 

[AltF4]

Really, think about it. An in-game AI that could learn, even in trivial ways would be revolutionary. Making computers learn is the research topic of MANY major universities across the world, including MIT.

And those guys have been working on it for decades.


And now you seem to think that a bunch of game programmers at Nintendo managed to make a program that learns in meaningful ways on it's own? AND that Nintendo didn't tell anyone, and hid it secretly in the game?

Don't be absurd. The developers didn't even bother to put voice chat into Brawl, let alone a revolutionary AI system.

 

[RyanPF]

That's why some of us have pointed out that it's not that hard. This isn't computer-learning-how-to-drive-a-car complexity, it's just repeating a set of in-game commands that a player does frequently.

 

[AltF4]

And I'm telling you that I have a degree in computer science, have studied AI, and there is nothing easy about it!

 

[betterthanbonds9]

And I'm telling you that I have a degree in computer science, have studied AI, and there is nothing easy about it!

dude, THAT'S why you're bill nye

but half the time they do stuff that isn't even relevant...so it's not like they are applying knowledge as much as just using stuff.

i still think that somehow they do stuff that you've done...i just don't know how, but im like 90% sure that they do. I don't know if that's learning really because the comp tends to lack application, but i do know that in a lucario ditto with the comp for the lulz i got into an fsmash spam fest with the comp doing the exact same thing

 

[luvs2pluck]

Im surprised no one has brought up the A.I. mode from Virtua Fighter 4 yet. Heres a little paragraph describing how the mode works:

"In A.I. Mode, players can create and train their own A.I. fighter. Training can be done through sparring with the A.I. creation using any of the game’s fighters or even through showing the A.I. fighter replays of fights that have been saved to a memory card. When the A.I. fighter is in situations that it has “seen” before, it will behave as it has been taught. Think of it as Virtua Pet Fighter Gaiden if you like. The A.I. fighter can then be used in any of the games modes, including Kumite. There is joy to be had watching your creation move through the rankings to reach one of the Dan levels. Though it turns the fighter into more of a strategy game, A.I. Mode is strangely addictive and definitely unique. Combined with Kumite, Arcade, and Vs. modes, the A.I. mode makes VF4 feel the best value of any of the home conversions of the series."

This game came out in 2002, just throwing this out there.

 

[AltF4]

In order for Virtua Fighter to "learn", the player had to explicitly tell the computer that it approved or disapproved of something specific that it did. There wasn't any autonomous learning. Obviously, if you explicitly TELL the computer to do something, then it can do it.

But that is not what we're talking about when we say the AI can "learn". It's just storing what you explicitly told it to do. A piece of paper can do that when given information from a pencil! But we certainly wouldn't say that the paper has "learned" anything after being written to, do we?


In fact, Virtua Fighter's "AI" mode perfectly describes one of the hard problems in AI: How do you determine what to keep as "good" and what as "bad"? You're trying to infer causality from correlation, which is in general impossible.

Imagine taking all the data from a computer's moves from a game that it lost. How would you determine what to change so as to not lose again? All the computer can see is the raw data, the moves it used. But describing the metagame is elusive.


This is why Chess playing programs are excellent tacticians (IE: They can perform very well in small scale decisions.) but poor strategists (large scale decisions). It's an easy problem for the computer to quickly determine and enumerate a large number of possible moves in the future. But describing abstract goals such as "control the center of the board" are extraordinarily difficult

 

[RyanPF]

And I'm telling you that I have a degree in computer science, have studied AI, and there is nothing easy about it!

Are you saying that because you can't do it, it can't be done?

You said CPUs can perform well in small scale decisions. That's all we're talking about here. I don't think anybody has claimed that the CPU can completely refine its entire game strategy. Only that it can learn small sequences of moves that work in specific situations.