CPU's Learn?

[Vv2]

Really, think about it. An in-game AI that could learn, even in trivial ways would be revolutionary. Making computers learn is the research topic of MANY major universities across the world, including MIT.

And those guys have been working on it for decades.


And now you seem to think that a bunch of game programmers at Nintendo managed to make a program that learns in meaningful ways on it's own? AND that Nintendo didn't tell anyone, and hid it secretly in the game?

Don't be absurd. The developers didn't even bother to put voice chat into Brawl, let alone a revolutionary AI system.

A- MIT is working on a self teaching AI I.E. can learn on there own without being told and AI's with the ability to alter there own code like a human would (behaviorism). now this is very complicated true, but making a AI follow a monkey see monkey do protocol like in most video games is not.
B- they have had AI's with learning capabilities for a long time now...its crude but the CPU records,analyzes,and executes and i think you'll find if you were to look up the definition of learning you would see thats all you need

Don't beleave me heres examples from researchers...

http://ekok.nl/tech/bos22apl/

http://robotics.benedettelli.com/snail.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyzOUbkUf3M

A grad from Caltech with Google....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m97_kL4ox0
Might be able to explain it to you....

But grats on your 1-Up

adds to list of generic responces "CPU's Dont learn"

 

[xiferp]

My Ganon crouch spams sometimes now. It NEVER did that before. I just recently started crouch spamming my friends with Ganon.

 

[Levitas]

Are you saying that because you can't do it, it can't be done?

You said CPUs can perform well in small scale decisions. That's all we're talking about here. I don't think anybody has claimed that the CPU can completely refine its entire game strategy. Only that it can learn small sequences of moves that work in specific situations.

He's saying he knows a hell of a lot more than you about it. And your post proves him right. AI that "learns" must be both extremely complex to program and take a LOT of processing power to run. Period. As far as "learning" small sequences as opposed to long ones, that won't be any easier to program. you wouldn't even be talking about AI in that case, that would be parroting. And I assure you the game does not do this.

A- MIT is working on a self teaching AI I.E. can learn on there own without being told and AI's with the ability to alter there own code like a human would (behaviorism). now this is very complicated true, but making a AI follow a monkey see monkey do protocol like in most video games is not.
B- they have had AI's with learning capabilities for a long time now...its crude but the CPU records,analyzes,and executes and i think you'll find if you were to look up the definition of learning you would see thats all you need

Don't beleave me heres examples from researchers...

http://ekok.nl/tech/bos22apl/

http://robotics.benedettelli.com/snail.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyzOUbkUf3M

A grad from Caltech with Google....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m97_kL4ox0
Might be able to explain it to you....

But grats on your 1-Up

adds to list of generic responces "CPU's Dont learn"

Cool. Does this apply to smash? Monkey see monkey do protocol is really bad. Also, please don't spell believe with an "a".

My Ganon crouch spams sometimes now. It NEVER did that before. I just recently started crouch spamming my friends with Ganon.

Why are you crouch spamming in BRAWL with GANON?! 0_o

 

[ShadowX718]

I got one creepy CPU DDD once. I was fighting and it actually chaingrabbed me. It down threw me and regrabbed me two more times then hit me. It was creepy.

I lol'd.

I thought they were programmed by the buttons you press and how close you get to them depends what they will do next...

 

[fromundaman]

Cool. Does this apply to smash? Monkey see monkey do protocol is really bad. Also, please don't spell believe with an "a".

It can. It's really not that complex for a computer to repeat a series of button presses you made. Hell, I used to know how to do it in Java back when I was actually taking compsci courses, and Brawl is a hell of a lot more complex than my ****ty Java programs. This would also explain why it copies both good and absolutely ******** things you do.

Why are you crouch spamming in BRAWL with GANON?! 0_o

It makes a metallic clicking sound?

Also, crouch spam Kirby and he makes Pac-man noises.

 

[Vv2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dJpf9Fn3cw

an explanation of how its used in games...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMqBejbOAEs
EA uses a learning AI...

Now EA's market cap is 11 billion

Nintendo market cap is around 58 Billion dollars

So somehow I doubt that EA has access to better software or personnel then Nintendo...

And your argument is ********...the computer cant learn anything you don't teach it...a person cant learn anything there not taught. Yes human beings learn based on sensory input I move my hand i feel it move my eyes measure distance and relay it to my brain but if you take out those sensors and you would flail around aimlessly because you haven't been taught anything self teaching is still teaching...how do you learn to read? by listening to some one else read following the letters and using pattern recognition, yes words are merely patterns...were not talking about advanced learning No one expects the AI to become a philosopher or anything but it has the ability to retain data and use it which is all you need....the only reason the CPU doesn't completely destroy us is because it has been programmed to screw up ever play a CS game where someone has auto aim? i assure you the CPU in brawl can tell exactly when you are prone to an attack (parry grabbing being a prime example) but think about it if you played brawl and EVERY single match was you vs a perfectly executed ice climber chain grab through a shield parry would you want to keep playing of courses not. the reason the cpu doesn't chain grab you 1 million times with any character is because its been told to screw up

And omg i m6y have sp4lt somGthing wrong ! (no one cares, blame your mother for not loving you enough)

 

[fromundaman]

The lack of punctuation disturbs me... ****it Mommy... Why didn't you love me?!

 

[.Marik]

I know this is Melee, but one time, I was facing a Luigi on Fountain Of Dreams, and the CPU did a beautiful wavedash. O_O

He did it like, 100% effectively.

 

[Sup Dawg]

I've fought cpu's for too long...

even level 1's know how to fight me now!
...
...
well they try to anyway.

it's interesting how even level 1's will eventually (key word: eventually) learn how to put up a fight.

kind of.

 

[pixelbind]

I was suprised when a cpu mk ledge>shuttle looped me ....scared me actually

 

[Levitas]

It can. It's really not that complex for a computer to repeat a series of button presses you made. Hell, I used to know how to do it in Java back when I was actually taking compsci courses, and Brawl is a hell of a lot more complex than my ****ty Java programs. This would also explain why it copies both good and absolutely ******** things you do.

How efficient were the loops that you would have used to record inputs? The CPU not only needs to record all inputs, it must record spacing data. Even then, the CPU will not recognize the situation at the point when the second attack's input must be made, because in all likelyhood, you won't be at the exact same percent and use the same DI that the CPU did against you.

So not only will this drain massive amounts of computing power, but the "strings" that it "copies" will almost certainly never happen.

There's a really easy way to test this empirically. spam some noncontexutal move that you don't observe the CPU using at a distinct spacing. Watch as the CPU does NOT mimic you.

The other method would be to time in frames the transform time of shiek to zelda vs cpus and vs people. A slower load would indicate more CPU stress. Count the frame difference. Note that it's not significant.

No **** that this stuff CAN be done, but it's neither efficient nor a good idea to implement in a game like brawl.

It makes a metallic clicking sound?

Also, crouch spam Kirby and he makes Pac-man noises.

um... cool?

 

[Vv2]

How efficient were the loops that you would have used to record inputs? The CPU not only needs to record all inputs, it must record spacing data.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the replay function...but the computer is always recording the inputs and spacing...those replays aren't videos...So I guess you can answer your own question...Do you lag when ever you play?>

Reason no difference between CPU vs. Human and Human Vs. Human is its always recording...as far as % and spacing goes i don't know if you have ever heard of a range....if between X & X do X....it doesn't need to be exact circumstance...

 

[Levitas]

It does need to do more. It has to feed the circumstances through the CPU's filter if that's the case, and the CPU needs to scrutinize every action.

And CPUs don't have fuzzy logic. between X & X do X doesn't work unless it has specific bounds that are predetermined, and the same would have to apply for spacing.

Also, what if the CPU records you doing a side b and an fsmash within the same set of conditions? How will the AI decide which is better?

In terms of efficiency, it's MUCH better to set it up without any recording/filtering than making a parrot. You get a better AI in general, don't have to filter/sort a TON of extra data, and it's just as effective without a clearcut definition to give the computer on what is better.

 

[demodemo]

i don't think sakurai would have put so much effort into a learning ai system for a game like brawl :\

it's not like the core of the game is playing with computers. It would be pretty sad if you were playing computers more than real people, especially for the "Casual" gamer.

Anyway, I think if the AI's could learn, there would be an article on the internet somewhere (since many games with innovative features have these random articles) and there is none, so I think everything is just speculation.

Anyway, consider how much data would need to be stored for each "situation". there would need to be seperate sets of data for each character match up, stage, number of players playing, etc.

As for computers popping balloons, I think it was programmed since balloons are suppose to carry items. Popping the balloon would drop the item, so it would seem like a plausible action.

 

[mariofanpm12]

Well, I'd like to hear from a Brawl programmers point of view, exactly how the CPU system in Bralw works.

A few questions...

a) Has anyone gotten their CPUs to actually attempt edge gaurding (besides using F-Smashes or other charge up attacks)?

b) Is it true that level 9 CPUs get more aggressive after a KO?

 

[Dr. Grandpa]

CPU is an effective way to learn and improve your skill in brawl

 

[mariofanpm12]

CPU is an effective way to learn and improve your skill in brawl

... you're kidding, right?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

a fox cpu in smash 64 did two lasers into an up smash

a Samus cpu in melee did a super wavedash to down smash

a Luigi CPU did tap a into up b.....Wtf

 

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

Well, Luigi cpu can do that. It's happened to me before so nothing surprising about that. As for a Samus doing the super wave dash O.o

 

[fromundaman]

Well, I'd like to hear from a Brawl programmers point of view, exactly how the CPU system in Bralw works.

What are the odds of that happening?

A few questions...

a) Has anyone gotten their CPUs to actually attempt edge gaurding (besides using F-Smashes or other charge up attacks)?

Yes, mine do it all the time, and somewhere in the vast sea of Youtube, I saw a video (I think it's called "Insane Computer Edge guard" or something of the sort) where a Pikachu does an amazing QA to sweetspot the ledge edge guard.

b) Is it true that level 9 CPUs get more aggressive after a KO?

No clue...

My answers are in red.

 

[Sigrid Fiinikkusu]

Well, cpu's do seem to get more aggressive when they are down a few stocks. They even start fighting each other if your way ahead of them in stock.

 

[ndayday]

i don't think sakurai would have put so much effort into a learning ai system for a game like brawl :\

it's not like the core of the game is playing with computers. It would be pretty sad if you were playing computers more than real people, especially for the "Casual" gamer.

That first part made me try to think of an instance in where the staff gives a purpose for CPUs. I recall it [DOJO] saying it's a good idea to watch CPUs fight to see effective strageties and learn from them. However, if anyone here has seen CPUs fight, they regularly don't move at all and just sit there, as if they are anticipating an action from the opponent. They also do this if you stand still. Would this mean that they require actions from the opponet to fight?

A few questions...

a) Has anyone gotten their CPUs to actually attempt edge gaurding (besides using F-Smashes or other charge up attacks)?

b) Is it true that level 9 CPUs get more aggressive after a KO?

Yes, I've had a CPU on several occasions edgegaurd me. I was Falco and was dropping down, recovering, shooting lasers, and if I got too low I would B-up. On one such attempt, I went to B-Up and the CPU (Ganon) ran off and back on quicky to edgegaurd me. (I don't know what the exact name for that is) He also used L/R to create the invincibility.

I don't know about that, but they seem to go after you more if you taunt at them.

And the other day I was messing around with a Lvl. 3 CPU and I was dashdancing quite a bit that match...like almost all the time. After I stopped dashdancing, I stood there and the Falco CPU dashdanced for about 3 seconds.

 

[RayAllen123]

Weird....My cpu Mario even on level 1 suprises me sometimes. I main Mario, and he does some crazy stuff like edge hogging me...I fear my level 9 Mario o.O

Also, my Peach edge stalls a lot (;.|)

 

[hyperhopper]

http://supersmashbros.ign.com/articles/news/1346/Train-Level-9-CPUs-in-Brawl

?

is it a yes or no?

also... in theory, does this mean we can train lvl 5(?)s to be like a human-like lvl 9 without the extraterrestrial dodging abilities?

 

[hyperhopper]

ohh! ign has http://boards.ign.com/super_smash_bros_/b5213/170635424/p1 on the same subject.... they say it only works if you and the cpu are the same charecter

oohh sorry for double post.

firefox crashed and it wasnt showing the previous post as if it was submitted

sorry

 

[NFS (sonic)]

I personally dont think they learn, I think its all pre-programmed, somewhat like a continuous 'while' statement loaded with a load of 'ifs'.

 

[hyperhopper]

but what about snakedashing? my lvl 9 didnt do it untill i did it to him in training.....

 

[fallenangemon0]

but what about snakedashing? my lvl 9 didnt do it untill i did it to him in training.....

Vids?


If they somehow CAN learn...

 

[hyperhopper]

dont know how to take a vid...

involves hbc?

 

[fallenangemon0]

I doubt they can untill I see undeniable proof.

I also advise anyone to do the same.

 

[Sup Dawg]

the comps in my game know how to glide-toss now thanks to my diddy... :o

it took them a while but they did it.

now I wonder what at's they'll pick up next...

maybe my snake will teach them how to snake dash.

 

[SilentFalcon]

This is really interesting. I've been thinking about this myself, ever since I started playing melee. I always felt that the computers would get "pissed" essentially after you KO'd them. I also feel like CPU's learn.

But I mainly see a progression in Brawl. I can still destroy my CPU's in melee, even after 5 years of AT's.

I have yet to be chaingrabbed by a falco... although I have been D-thrown --> Dair.

 

[kuenzel]

I'm not sure what wingdashing is. If it's something really complicated, this makes me think the A.I.'s are being patched in those game updates we've all been pondering.

WHAT? Are you suggesting they actually patch the game? This would change EVERYTHING! Tiers would lose meaning! Balancing might actually take place! Chaingrabs would be removed! Characters nerfed! Meta-Knight legitimized!

I'm sorry, but your update babble has to stop right now-- you could cause a rift in the time-space continuum and destroy the universe

 

[SilentFalcon]

WHAT? Are you suggesting they actually patch the game? This would change EVERYTHING! Tiers would lose meaning! Balancing might actually take place! Chaingrabs would be removed! Characters nerfed! Meta-Knight legitimized!

I'm sorry, but your update babble has to stop right now-- you could cause a rift in the time-space continuum and destroy the universe

Yeah wait, since when do they patch the game? I've never got any Brawl Updates!.....?!?!

 

[kuenzel]

He must have been talking about system updates (what other updates do we EVER get?), which wouldn't make any sense because those updates can't alter what's on a Read Only CD.

 

[HeWhoCanSee]

In the case of most people posting here that are for the idea of CPUs adapting, hear this.

If something is going to work, the CPU WILL do it! If Falco sees the chance to grab you or dair you out of a throw, it will happen. It's not learning, they're picking from one to a handful of predetermined responses to a situations.

If you spam them with something that renders a response useless, it's just a matter of time until they choose something else. I.E. If you're spamming A>A>A>*PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW* as Captain Falcon and a CPU is just walking into it, they're eventually going to choose to jump over the hitboxes instead of trying to break through them with a move. The chance of this doesn't go up each time they walk into it (take THAT, Law of Averages!), but it'll still happen.

As for Kirby doing that thing on PictoChat... eh... Were you very close to the area on those counts? He might've been just trying to crush you with his Down B and got caught on the ledge. CPU Kirby's never exit Down B until they've hit the ground or are above the pit of death *SPARTA KICK!!!*. Seeing as neither is happening for long enough, he just stays there until it expires.

As for how he grabbed you... The CPU ****ing well knows you can grab him out of the rock. He's gonna do it; it's his only response option.

 

[hectichobo]

As for Kirby doing that thing on PictoChat... eh... Were you very close to the area on those counts? He might've been just trying to crush you with his Down B and got caught on the ledge. CPU Kirby's never exit Down B until they've hit the ground or are above the pit of death *SPARTA KICK!!!*. Seeing as neither is happening for long enough, he just stays there until it expires.

He didn't do it on accident. He did it... over... and over... and over again.

 

[Firestormzero0]

No one can fully understand the limits of the Computers... Thus leading tooo... computers taking over world and humans lose...

 

[marthmaster59]

Basically it's a new skill for Captain Falcon. While charging the Falcon Punch, tilt the Control Stick at the opposite direction. Time it right and he'll change the direction of his punch.

On a side note, the Reverse Falcon Punch packs more power than a normal Falcon Punch.

FALCON -dude why are you punching in the wrong direction?- *turns around* PAWNCH!

 

[n88]

I tested this theory out, and on my friend's game, you can hardly tell the difference between him and the computer playing. It's scary. I've never seen the computer exploit a glitch, though.