Counterpicking Made Easy

[Ken Neth]

LOL I love your way of telling IrisKong that he's a complete idiot, Meno

 

[deepseadiva]

No...

I actually added a ton of the stuff he said.

...he's just an wrong on those three things.

 

[Ken Neth]

Oh, I didn't realize that you had cropped his post down. I thought that was the entire post that you quoted. My bad

 

[da K.I.D.]

is there a "character" counterpicking made easy list?

yes, theres actually a "the worst match for each character" thread that is about a 3rd of the way through the cast, but its started at the top and is working its way down

 

[Kamikaze*]

Remove FD off of one of MKs worst stages. That's great for him.

Seriously, I win on FD all the time.

 

[Jupz]

Smashville is also realy good for falco

 

[da K.I.D.]

Seriously, I win on FD all the time.

wow really?
ITS CUS YOURE PLAYING METAKNIGHT!!

WORST STAGE =/= YOU WILL LOSE ON THAT STAGE

it merely means the other character will have the best chance of beating yours on that stage.

BUT YOU ARE STILL PLAYING BROKEN TRASH, PICKING FD WONT EVER CHANGE THAT.

 

[ShadowLink84]

WHat kid said.
FD is Metaknights worst stage. As in that stage he receives the least benefits/no benefits in comparison to other stages.

 

[AnDaLe]

yes, theres actually a "the worst match for each character" thread that is about a 3rd of the way through the cast, but its started at the top and is working its way down

link me plz

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It has to count for something that Final Destination is a very good stage for Meta Knight against Mr. Game & Watch because of how it emphasizes Shuttle Loop so much (Shuttle Loop being far and away Meta Knight's best tool against Mr. Game & Watch). I'm radical and would honestly rather fight him on Luigi's Mansion, but I think any Mr. Game & Watch main would agree the stage just plain sucks against Meta Knight even if they aren't willing to go that far.

Of course, that's not the typical Meta Knight matchup and more a demonstration of why counterpicking isn't that simple. Perhaps it's just a sign that your worst stages can become your best sometimes, especially when it's also a bad stage for the other character. Personal factors also come into play pretty strongly; we all have stages we play well and poorly on that really complicate things.

I think the whole "Meta Knight always does well" thing is a complete myth; I definitely feel as though Mr. Game & Watch has a clear advantage against him on Green Greens at the very least (and would actually claim it on Norfair and Halberd too, but those are a lot less obvious than Green Greens). I know Mr. Game & Watch is just too awesome in general, but I'm going to guess that's far from the only case.

As per a third good Mr. Game & Watch stage, personally I would put Norfair. His ability to attack from below and utilize the ledges is pretty high; I know I definitely counterpick it a ton and get rewarded for it.

 

[deepseadiva]

Then again AA, Final Destination is listed as one of Game & Watch's worst stages.

I think overall, FD is best against MK when using a character with a projectile. The purely melee-based characters will undoubtedly miss out on the full advantage of a huge camp ground.

 

[istudying]

How can Battlefield be Jigglypuffs worst stage. Her rest Gameplay on platforms is really good.

Diddy kongs worst stage isn't Norfair.

 

[---]

I think that Pikachu is also really good on Corneria and Smashville, and that Ike is really good at Norfair (I never lost playing as him there.)

Also Olimar's worst stage is really The Summit.

And how does Peach not have a bad stage?

 

[Moozle]

You don't have anything for peach negatives. I personally hate lylat with her, and rainbow cruise as well. But really, peach is invincible so all stages are good for her.

 

[Isaac Brawler]

I personally hate playing with Pikachu on Battlefield. The platforms break up all its camping game! Besides, I find it difficult to QAC correctly with the platforms.

 

[Roxas1988]

i agree sonic does **** in yoshis island. But i think he isnt that good at battlefield.

 

[T-block]

PT needs an update

Squirtle
Best: Brinstar, Battlefield, Norfair
Worst: Jungle Japes

Ivysaur
Best: Norfair, Pirate Ship, Castle Siege
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

Charizard
Best: Halberd, Pictochat, Pokemon Stadium 1
Worst: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise

Pokemon Trainer
Best: Brinstar, Pirate Ship, Pictochat, Battlefield
Worst: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon


...that's my humble opinion. Better PTs might disagree with me, but I think this is more accurate than what's in the OP atm.

 

[BSP]

Nice. This'll make counterpicking easy.

 

[Fuzzy1010]

Another Lucas worst stage is Rainbow Cruise. At least for me. It's so hard to recover with all the obstacles.

 

[blipped moon]

For captain falcon FD and Smashville are not bad maps for him at all. Both allow him room to run about for mind games and on FD can live to 150 every life.

Yoshi island is a good map for falcon.

 

[deepseadiva]

You don't have anything for peach negatives. I personally hate lylat with her, and rainbow cruise as well. But really, peach is invincible so all stages are good for her.

Lylat isn't bad for her - I keep telling people. The only bad aspect is you can't ground float and your auto-canceling is thrown off a bit. Otherwise it's utilt and usmash heaven, while the tilting ledges have no effect on your recovery, but hurt almost everyone else.

Rainbow Cruise on the other hand... that stage can suck it.

 

[:mad:]

For captain falcon FD and Smashville are not bad maps for him at all. Both allow him room to run about for mind games and on FD can live to 150 every life.

Yoshi island is a good map for falcon.

Going by this logic, Captain Falcon doesn't have a bad neutral. He just has some much room to land Falcon PAWNCHEESSS left and rite, he's practically undefeetable on final destinationn.

 

[blipped moon]

Going by this logic, Captain Falcon doesn't have a bad neutral. He just has some much room to land Falcon PAWNCHEESSS left and rite, he's practically undefeetable on final destinationn.

Falcon has no bad neautral, he doesnt have any great neutral, but none are bad.

He just has some much room to land Falcon PAWNCHEESSS left and rite
**** STRAIGHT!

 

[SuSa]

Snake actually does pretty well on RC. I no longer ban it as Snake.

I'm starting to feel Snake has no bad CP. Just ones his opponents do better then him at. lol

EDIT:
I was one to say RC was bad...

Also Japes isn't THAAAAT bad. It's just a bit harder to KO. However we can camp pretty hard here. It's just others (EG: Falco) can abuse it more then we can.

 

[<π]

On the edge plats and center floating plat of japes you can techain grab all day. SuSa you should know that if I do.

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm starting to feel Snake has no bad CP. Just ones his opponents do better then him at. lol

I'm not sure I'll remove RC and JJ from Snake's just yet. I highly respect your opinion Susa, but I think I'll wait for the rest of the metagame to catch up. xD

It's like Fino and his love for Rainbow Cruise. He plays Olimar.

 

[SuSa]

I can go grab a good 4-5 other Snake's who feel the same way. I'm not alone with that feeling.

However I am mostly alone about JJ from what I know of.

EDIT:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7545495&postcount=23
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7555232&postcount=27


The rest of the posts are lost in our social thread somewhere.

EDIT:
Which means I can find them if I really need to. Or I'll just take a quick vote at the Snake boards.

I've also been playing on it a ton recently on the AiB ladder.

 

[xDD-Master]

Agreed, Snake can make the live for the others hard on every stage. Just like that what SuSa said.

 

[Kingdom Come]

I feel as though Delfino can be used a PKMN Trainer Cp, Ivy can space very well here. Charizard can live forever here. And Squirtle *****. Just from my experience.

 

[Ken Neth]

Rainbow Cruise is not a bad snake stage.

Japes is only bad against people like falco who can camp snake super gay. Against everyone else, snake can just camp the far right platform. Snake forces people to approach him there and then excels at being in close quarters like that. Dthrow=Almost automatic dair/easy regrab just for one example.

But yeah, I wouldn't say either of those are bad snake stages.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

I don't understand why Yoshi's island is bad for Ness... I mean, I Brawl on that stand a lot, and I really haven't had any problems.

 

[deepseadiva]

*removes Rainbow Cruise as a bad Snake stage*

You and your substantial opinions. >____>

I feel as though Delfino can be used a PKMN Trainer Cp, Ivy can space very well here. Charizard can live forever here. And Squirtle *****. Just from my experience.

How are those attributes specific to Delfino?

I don't understand why Yoshi's island is bad for Ness... I mean, I Brawl on that stand a lot, and I really haven't had any problems.

Ness can't wall hug when PKT2ing, the middle platform is anti-aerial, and the ghost and Shy Guys on occasion, albeit rarely, eat PK Thunder.

Also our top-placing Ness player here in Colorado says about the same and bans/strikes it every time.

 

[demonictoonlink]

<3 Tim
Just saying, Yoshi's Island does suck **** for Ness. Poor little guy...

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I don't know why Pika's worst stage is Battlefield, most of my friends and I do really well with him on that stage. Quack really is amazing on this stage because in my opinion, the platforms set up perfectly with aerials. I can understand that the platforms are a nuisance to his Thunder jolts, but the Quacks help position you fast in places where you can Tjolt properly. I'd say BF is an average stage for Pikachu.

 

[r3d d09]

This might be just me, but I use this basically daily due to my randoming and wanting to improve my knowledge, but i think this should be stickied. and obviously it's being a community thing as well. giving input on their opinions will make a nice sticky.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It keeps itself bumped nicely enough, and in general such a reference isn't really much more than a starting point for most players. Playing to your own personal strengths and knowing matchup specific counterpicks is far more important in the end.

Also, if Rainbow Cruise isn't one of Snake's three worst stages, what are those stages? Snake obviously does better on some stages than others on average (most Snakes I see claim that Lylat is particularly strong for him, for instance, though I don't mind playing him there as G&W). Whichever three he does the least well on are his worst, even if he's still a good character on every stage (probable).

 

[SuSa]

However his 3 "worst" gets really fuzzy and comes straight down into personal preference.. due to him being good on every stage. (again, his opponent may just be able to abuse the stage more)

I **** on Delfino, Rainbow Cruise, and Japes. What many argue his worst 3 CP's.

I get thrashed on Brinstar, which I even argue is one of his better stages.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

However his 3 "worst" gets really fuzzy and comes straight down into personal preference.. due to him being good on every stage. (again, his opponent may just be able to abuse the stage more)

I **** on Delfino, Rainbow Cruise, and Japes. What many argue his worst 3 CP's.

I get thrashed on Brinstar, which I even argue is one of his better stages.

Just like characters, Skill > stages. The only way to argue which stages are his worst are purely through boons and set backs he gets. Weigh them out, and see if the cons outweigh the pros. If so, the stage is disadvantage to him. More cons, the more it is disadvantaged.

Also, if Rainbow Cruise isn't one of Snake's three worst stages, what are those stages? Snake obviously does better on some stages than others on average (most Snakes I see claim that Lylat is particularly strong for him, for instance, though I don't mind playing him there as G&W). Whichever three he does the least well on are his worst, even if he's still a good character on every stage (probable).

I believe that Snake is one of those characters that has enough adapation ability to fight on any stage well enough. A stage like RC can easily be adapted to the way the stage changes by altering what you decide to do. So I like to agree that Snake has no disadvantaged stages as a whole to his playing ability. He adapts. He will have worst stages depending upon who is playing on that stage. Wario on Brinstar is easily Snakes worst stage against Wario, etc.

I won't go so far to say that Snake is like MK. MK can adapt so well to a stage that nothing really gives people much of advantage over him.

 

[SuSa]

So I just beat a MK on RC today. I counterpicked him there. In Grand Finals

Can I have a cookie Meno?

EDIT:
@AA
It's entirely player dependant. I can't play on Lylat or Halberd to save my life... those are argued Snake's best stages by many.... however I can do just fine on Japes and RC.... -_-

 

[Stannum]

lol dk is amazing on RC just for the record. he has the dltilt lock at any percent to downsmash for a kill in 3 places, and he can camp well under platforms till the stage moves to one of these spots. the only disadvantaged area is a the swinging platform, but only a very bad DK will get reckless in that one area. as long as you can powershield decently, you are advantaged on rainbow cruise. in my opinion at least, maytbe get bigfoot, big o, ripple or cyphus to see their opinion