Countering (Projectile) Spam - Ultimate

1FC0

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But joking aside, as many other Link players, i use projectiles but i don't spam them (unless we don't share the same definition of spam).
Do not deny it. Link is a zoner and without the spamming of his projectiles he sucks. You might switch between your different projectiles but you'll either be zoning a lot or getting souped.

There is no shame in projectile spamming. I use R.O.B. and I embrace projectile spamming. On FG i used to wear down shields by repeatedly hammering them with Gyros to open them up for an unblockable Arm Rotor. And in Elite Smash I also spam Gyro or Robo Beam. I remember when I was having problems with some Ness and then I changed tactics and started spamming them Gyros even more heavily than normal after which it went great and I ended up winning. And it was good. I love projectile spamming and setting stage traps. Like R.O.B., Link can do both and if I were a Link main I would embrace it with pride and show it off wherever I can like I do with R.O.B..
 
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:ultjoker: Got real old real fast.

I’ve tried camping out Arsene but that can easily take a whole minute or two from the entire match, and I usually have to face 2-3 of these per match so it always goes to sudden death.

Yeah, I’m not getting near that thing.
 

1FC0

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I do not really have trouble with Arsene. My strategy is to avoid his attacks and hit him with my attacks while Arsene is out.
 
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Do not deny it. Link is a zoner and without the spamming of his projectiles he sucks. You might switch between your different projectiles but you'll either be zoning a lot or getting souped.
lol. That's one way to put it.

I see your point but Link's projectiles all have a pretty slow startup so they're better used at mid/long range, the moment an opponent decides to rush you need to know how to defend yourself up close (in certain matchup, it's almost impossible to use projectiles, e.g. vs Sheik, vs Greninja, vs Pichu). In my experience, Link doesn't 'suck' without his projectiles, he actually has a bunch of good tools for cqc (e.g. his nair being the best, grab is suprisingly quick at frame 6, down throw can combo into a bunch of moves with d-tilt, up throw can kill at hight percent, up smash is a great anti air, up-b out of shield is a good 'get off me' and a potent killmove etc.). Sure he's a bit sluggish but on the other hand, most of his attacks are pretty strong.

Anyways, zoning and spamming are two different things. Spamming only works when the opponent doesn't know how to deal with a particular move. As i pointed out in my previous post, i think it's better to learn to use a character whole moveset in order to get better at the game. Keep in mind, it's just my opinion based on my experience, i'm not trying to prove you wrong here.
 
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1FC0

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lol. That's one way to put it.

I see your point but Link's projectiles all have a pretty slow startup so they're better used at mid/long range, the moment an opponent decides to rush you need to know how to defend yourself up close (in certain matchup, it's almost impossible to use projectiles, e.g. vs Sheik, vs Greninja, vs Pichu).
R.O.B. has the same problem except his Gyro is actually decently fast if he has it.

In my experience, Link doesn't 'suck' without his projectiles, he actually has a bunch of good tools for cqc (e.g. his nair being the best, grab is suprisingly quick at frame 6, down throw can combo into a bunch of moves with d-tilt, up throw can kill at hight percent, up smash is a great anti air, up-b out of shield is a good 'get off me' and a potent killmove etc.). Sure he's a bit sluggish but on the other hand, most of his attacks are pretty strong.
Now that you mention it, I remember playing a Link and his Nair was amazing. That move seems to have no endlag and is incredible safe. I enjoyed using R.O.B.'s safe Nair in Smash4 but I think SSBU Link's Nair might be even safer.

Anyways, zoning and spamming are two different things. Spamming only works when the opponent doesn't know how to deal with a particular move. As i pointed out in my previous post, i think it's better to learn to use a character whole moveset in order to get better at the game.
I know they are different. But zoning can be done by spamming projectiles which was what I was getting at. Although I remember that Link has good cqc too.

BTW spamming does not always imply a mindless playstyle. For example R.O.B.'s Nair is pretty safe but only when spaced properly. And the only way to space it properly is to predict the opponent's movement because otherwise the opponent may mess up R.O.B.'s spacing. Hence spamming Nair successfully requires mindgames with the spacing. Mindgaming can be done anytime that both players have to choose between different options in a rock-paper-scissor like situation. Those options can consist of different moves to use, but also of different movement patterns or different timings. Hence spammers can still mindgame by varying movement and timing. Spamming only becomes mindless when nothing is varied. This is the kind of spamming that relies on people not knowing how to deal with a certain move.
 

Rran

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Not sure if they're the most annoying characters to fight online, but Ness and Ganondorf are certainly the ones that I most dread encountering.
 
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I seem to only get spammy opponents or opponents capable of combo-ing me to death, so I'm scared of most of the cast, haha. Bowsers can be annoying if they're constantly going for suicide kills. King Dedede is often annoying with up-special and side-special spam. Wolf is annoying with neutral-special, when I'm not playing Ness. And, speaking of, Ness is annoying pretty much 100% of the time, especially when I'm not Ness. Every Gannondorf I find seems to try for forward-smash kills exclusively. Cloud is annoying to me too, because he has good range on his attacks and often they will use lots of neutral-specials and/or side-specials. Link and Young Link are both annoying with their projectiles effectively shielding them on Battlefield. Every time I see a Pokemon Trainer, I'm scared that I'll be combo-ed, and usually I'm right.

Online is fun, though.
 

Coolboy

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meh in the 4 mil range i can name alot of annoying things

Megaman spam
Samus spam
Zelda's up B spam
Ness PK fire spam
Captain Falcon
Bowsercide (any person who does it is a worst player then me, cause you wouldn't need this if you could beat me otherwise :p )
Links spam ( lol ok ok i do it too with Toon & Young but just not the mindless way, i won multiple matches with just using my projectiles and try to keep my distance from my opponent(s) cause close combat just doesn't always work cough Ike vs Toon cough)
 

1FC0

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Bowsercide (any person who does it is a worst player then me, cause you wouldn't need this if you could beat me otherwise :p )
Maybe they do not need it but like the challenge of beating you while forcing themselves to spam. Anyway this excuse is stupid. People often say to me that I only win because I have great skill and that really they are better because my skill gives me an unfair advantage that I need to win. But I do not care. I know that my skill seems like an unfair advantage but If it is true that if I have my skill then I win and that I have my skill, then I win and therefore I am the best.
 

Coolboy

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Maybe they do not need it but like the challenge of beating you while forcing themselves to spam. Anyway this excuse is stupid. People often say to me that I only win because I have great skill and that really they are better because my skill gives me an unfair advantage that I need to win. But I do not care. I know that my skill seems like an unfair advantage but If it is true that if I have my skill then I win and that I have my skill, then I win and therefore I am the best.
doing a suicide move does not require any type of skill..it's a move anyone could do when they are either desperate or know they can't defeat you otherwise, he had 1 stock advantage sure but he was struggling and he was going to lose that stock so he got scared,
i will admit if someone was better then me but Bowsercide is a sad move that basically says ''look! i can't beat you so i am gonna use Bowsercide on you otherwise i can't win!'' it's so sad xD
 

1FC0

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doing a suicide move does not require any type of skill..it's a move anyone could do when they are either desperate or know they can't defeat you otherwise, he had 1 stock advantage sure but he was struggling and he was going to lose that stock so he got scared,
Bowsercide requires hitting with a hard to hit move hence it requires a mindgame. Hence getting beaten by a Bowsercide often means getting beaten by mindgames. Mindgames are all about skill. If you get outmindgamed, then you lack skill.
i will admit if someone was better then me but Bowsercide is a sad move that basically says ''look! i can't beat you so i am gonna use Bowsercide on you otherwise i can't win!'' it's so sad xD
So if they beat you with a Bowsercide then according to you they are basically saying that they cannot beat you. Even though they just beat you. Well I think that if they beat you then that just proved that they can beat you. In fact this seems so obvious to me that I do not even know how to explain it.

I also do not get why you think that you are better at Smash Bros. even if you can not win in Smash Bros., just because you assume that you would win in in a game that is like Smash Bros but where Bowser only has 3 of his specials. Even if your assumption is correct, Bowser does have his side special in Smash Bros and thus if a Bowser can consistently beat you using his side special then he is better than you at Smash Bros..

Bowsercides require mindgames, just use safe moves when you think that he is going to try it and then you might be able to actually win in Smash Bros. instead of losing while assuming that you would win in another game with your made up rules.
 
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Sean²

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doing a suicide move does not require any type of skill..it's a move anyone could do when they are either desperate or know they can't defeat you otherwise, he had 1 stock advantage sure but he was struggling and he was going to lose that stock so he got scared,
i will admit if someone was better then me but Bowsercide is a sad move that basically says ''look! i can't beat you so i am gonna use Bowsercide on you otherwise i can't win!'' it's so sad xD
Any suicide move involves baiting you close enough to them that it will work. If it worked on you, it means you've just been outplayed. I'll admit, command grabs can get a little tilting sometimes, but you can counter them by staying out of range, or even just spotdodging when you think it's coming and punishing the lag on the grab. Most command grabs can also be mashed out of if you're ready to do it fast enough.

Bowser's also allows you to control his movement if you're at a lower percent. So if you're beating him, he shouldn't be able to bowsercide you if you just hold the control stick in the direction you. If he's beating you with a stock advantage plus percent advantage, he would have probably beaten you without it anyway.
 

Garo

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Hard to decide honestly, so here's an unordered top 10:

:ultgreninja: Very hard to hit and has ridiculous kill power for a character this speedy.
:ultinkling: Even a small amount of lag makes Splat Roller a nightmare. Insane damage, hard to hit and ridiculous aerials.
:ultness: Boy, I sure wish I had an airdodge that can get me to the ledge from 10 meters away. Stupid aerials, PK Fire and PSI Magnet are annoying sometimes.
:ultlucas: Kinda like Ness, with some moves being less annoying and some more. Even with Rope Snake though, he's overall a little less annoying.
:ultpalutena: Let's see, there's the nair train, Explosive Flame, up air, the invincible shield... Basically all her key options are pretty overtuned.
:ultpichu: Very hard to hit and apparently electricity outprioritizes everything. Self-damage means jack when you can't get your hands on him.
:ultpikachu: See above. Now with no self-damage and the added annoyance of Quick Attack.
:ultpokemontrainer: More specifically :ultsquirtle: who's hard to hit and :ultivysaur: who outspaces you and has some ridiculous hitboxes on his kill moves. Who needs :ultcharizard:?
:ultsnake: You hit me? Grenade. You're offstage? Have a Nikita. On the ledge? Up smash. Basically has a near-broken option for every situation.
:ultyounglink: Pretty hard to hit, combos from every projectile and a nair that he can probably throw out twice in a single short hop. Does it really have to kill too?
 

Coolboy

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Bowsercide requires hitting with a hard to hit move hence it requires a mindgame. Hence getting beaten by a Bowsercide often means getting beaten by mindgames. Mindgames are all about skill. If you get outmindgamed, then you lack skill.

So if they beat you with a Bowsercide then according to you they are basically saying that they cannot beat you. Even though they just beat you. Well I think that if they beat you then that just proved that they can beat you. In fact this seems so obvious to me that I do not even know how to explain it.

I also do not get why you think that you are better at Smash Bros. even if you can not win in Smash Bros., just because you assume that you would win in in a game that is like Smash Bros but where Bowser only has 3 of his specials. Even if your assumption is correct, Bowser does have his side special in Smash Bros and thus if a Bowser can consistently beat you using his side special then he is better than you at Smash Bros..

Bowsercides require mindgames, just use safe moves when you think that he is going to try it and then you might be able to actually win in Smash Bros. instead of losing while assuming that you would win in another game with your made up rules.
whaaaat?! i don't think i'm all that! xD i wasn't speaking in general i am just talking about matches that involve Bowsercide
i find it a low and cheap move someone only uses if they are struggling or can't beat their opponent(s) the easy way otherwise and with matches i seen and experienced this always had been the case with Bowsercide. even if it wasn't me but someone else losing from Bowsercide i would literally be saying the same thing,
in my opinion anyone who got defeated by Bowsercide were the better player in that match cause the Bowser player had to go that low, i am not saying in general before we get that misunderstanding again.
i met good Bowser players as well who performed great without Bowsercide and that impresses me waaaaaay more then some cheap Bowsercide move
i do both win and lose in the game so you assuming things are just meh assumptions, just like everyone i have good days and bad days.

i am not going to change my opinion on how i think of Bowsercide. you can disagree with me sure but at least let me have my opinion as well even if you think it's a rediculous 1.
 

J.I.L

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whaaaat?! i don't think i'm all that! xD i wasn't speaking in general i am just talking about matches that involve Bowsercide
i find it a low and cheap move someone only uses if they are struggling or can't beat their opponent(s) the easy way otherwise and with matches i seen and experienced this always had been the case with Bowsercide. even if it wasn't me but someone else losing from Bowsercide i would literally be saying the same thing,
in my opinion anyone who got defeated by Bowsercide were the better player in that match cause the Bowser player had to go that low, i am not saying in general before we get that misunderstanding again.
i met good Bowser players as well who performed great without Bowsercide and that impresses me waaaaaay more then some cheap Bowsercide move
i do both win and lose in the game so you assuming things are just meh assumptions, just like everyone i have good days and bad days.

i am not going to change my opinion on how i think of Bowsercide. you can disagree with me sure but at least let me have my opinion as well even if you think it's a rediculous 1.
Bowercide only works if you have a stock lead, coolboy. Otherwise, bowser just dies first if tied or if bowerser is down a stock...that's just suicide.
 

Coolboy

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Bowercide only works if you have a stock lead, coolboy. Otherwise, bowser just dies first if tied or if bowerser is down a stock...that's just suicide.
i know this, but i personally still find it a very unfair move in general, that's my whole point but instead i have to end up defending myself cause people misunderstood me,
a stock lead says nothing cause it's not over until it's over, bowsercide feels cheap and 1 of the lowest things someone can do to win,
even Samus/Megaman spam is 100% fair compared to Bowercide not gonna lie.
there are a few characters in the game i struggle with and i know this but i know that's on me to work on and that's going alright cause i just take my time with it!
but i just have a different opinion on Bowsercide and i am not affraid to let that be known even if everyone disagrees with me.
 

1FC0

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whaaaat?! i don't think i'm all that! xD i wasn't speaking in general i am just talking about matches that involve Bowsercide
i find it a low and cheap move someone only uses if they are struggling or can't beat their opponent(s) the easy way otherwise and with matches i seen and experienced this always had been the case with Bowsercide. even if it wasn't me but someone else losing from Bowsercide i would literally be saying the same thing,
in my opinion anyone who got defeated by Bowsercide were the better player in that match cause the Bowser player had to go that low,
I do not think that I misunderstood you. I thought that you meant that if you lost to Bowsercide then that shows that you are actually better than the Bowser that beat you using Bowsercide. And if you think that in general anyone who loses to Bowsercide is actually better than the Bowser that beat him using Bowsercide then you did think what I thought that you thought. I never meant to imply that you thought that it was exclusive to you.

i am not going to change my opinion on how i think of Bowsercide. you can disagree with me sure but at least let me have my opinion as well even if you think it's a rediculous 1.
Learning to counter the Bowsercide would both prove to you that Bowsercide requires outplaying the opponent and —most importantly— it would allow you to beat people that try to use Bowsercide against you. The scrub mentality is probably holding you down and making you lose to Bowsercide. But you are completely right in that you are free to have your own opinion, even if I believe that it is a wrong one that is limiting you. We can agree to disagree on this. You do not have to defend anything if you do not want to.


Having said that I will admit that Bowsercide can seem cheesy since it is a huge reward move. I vaguely remember once getting nabbed by a Ganoncide and it seemed so cheesy because it was just a small slip up that I almost never made and I immediately got punished very hard for the one time I made it. Many Ganons tried and many failed and then this one got lucky and immediately took a stock.
But that was bit cheesy since it was largely luck, he could not repeat it. However if you are getting hit repeatedly by suicide moves then you might want to change your strategy.
 
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Vincey_Boi

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Well for being a DK main i dont want to say my character but it is down right DK is very annoying. Most either dash attack ir backair spam and they get some nice combos and Edgeguards on you and its pretty nice seeing people flat out ragequit by Sd'ing or turning off their switch after i Down throw into F-smash offstage its HILARIOUS.
 

Sucumbio

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Suicide kos are one of many mate in 3 moves deals. Anyone ever play chess thinking you were good and the other player pulls some wacky thing you've never seen? 3 moves.... Oh man wow didn't even pay attention to that wow.... Play again?...


That was my first draw to fighting games... Those insane surprises.

Smash has a good load of them but of course by the time you're watching pros they're rare instances but in quickplay you're definitely gonna see all kinds of strategies. Mashing side b with Ganon or bowser or ddd pretty much yields a range off effects depending on how many players are engaged. A clever bowser can prolly win with just their b specials lol
 

Xquirtle

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Suicide kos are one of many mate in 3 moves deals. Anyone ever play chess thinking you were good and the other player pulls some wacky thing you've never seen? 3 moves.... Oh man wow didn't even pay attention to that wow.... Play again?...


That was my first draw to fighting games... Those insane surprises.

Smash has a good load of them but of course by the time you're watching pros they're rare instances but in quickplay you're definitely gonna see all kinds of strategies. Mashing side b with Ganon or bowser or ddd pretty much yields a range off effects depending on how many players are engaged. A clever bowser can prolly win with just their b specials lol
Can we change that to "almost any bowser can prolly win with just their b specials"? Its not as common as down B only Ganon, but we've probably all seen B cheese Bowsers by now. Interestingly, the fact that people play this way shows that they actually win games doing it, and then get conditioned to keep doing it lol.
 

GhostClown

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Zelda and Sonic. They both spam special moves that leave almost no time to react; Zelda is a little easier but one hit and she teleports which hits me or neutral B which hits me AND reflects projectiles. Sonic hits me five times in one easy burst or I block it and get grabbed / hit by aerials. It makes me want to just give up and take a 30 minute ban. Lol
 

J.I.L

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I feel you. I hate robs the most in the game. This stupid rob I was playing, I was leading him the whole match with falco, he did his stupid grab which threw me in the dirt then his dumb up a attack and killed. Low and behold his gsp is like 50k below me which means I lost about 2k gsp (it’s a lot if you are where I’m at). I was so angry, I threw a pillow on the ground and kicked it so hard. Almost destroyed my plants and almost took out my own dinner lights. That stupid character, I’ve given him no more mercy. Any rob I see online, I’m going to tea bag them the entire match while destroying as well. I venomously dislike that character.
 

Artic223

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I feel you. I hate robs the most in the game. This stupid rob I was playing, I was leading him the whole match with falco, he did his stupid grab which threw me in the dirt then his dumb up a attack and killed. Low and behold his gsp is like 50k below me which means I lost about 2k gsp (it’s a lot if you are where I’m at). I was so angry, I threw a pillow on the ground and kicked it so hard. Almost destroyed my plants and almost took out my own dinner lights. That stupid character, I’ve given him no more mercy. Any rob I see online, I’m going to tea bag them the entire match while destroying as well. I venomously dislike that character.
Poor pillow.
 

Jaycee_023

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I absolutely cannot stand facing Sonic. I never thought of myself as the type of person to suicide to end a match early, but I matched with a Sonic last week and must not have been in a great mood, because I said "**** this" and SD'd 3 times to move on. Felt kinda dirty, but not as dirty as people who play Sonic must feel!
 

Brinzy

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Honestly... like 80% of the cast lol. But for me, it depends largely upon how the person is playing.

For example, there are Links and WFTs that have good setups and work to try to control you the whole game. But then, there are the ones who refuse to engage with you. I won't play the latter and will gladly SD my way out if it's too annoying.

I also hate playing against a lot of heavies just because I have so little room for error. At my GSP, you can't really spam Phantom against anyone decent, so the game ends up being me trying my hardest and then losing a stock after one slip-up. Only, since it's online, it's way easier to mess up.

Finally, every FE character but Robin. I feel like a lot of them are dishonest and carried by playing fast / lagless swordies online. Win or lose, I don't stick around long unless I can tell they're skilled and they're respectful.
 

Nubby

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:ultjoker:- Can't be punished easily cause of him being able to roll after everything and his specials being fairly annoying.

:ultlucas:- So many powerful confirms and disjoints. Also has a tether which has kill power.

:ultbowser:- Relies on grabs too much and builds up so much pressure on you.

:ultpikachu: - Stupid camping game, lame edgeguarding, lame setups, and a pain to edgeguard.

:ultyounglink::ultsnake::ultgreninja::ultpacman::ultlink::ulttoonlink: - Camping game gets annoying and get cheesy kill setups.

:ultzelda: - Neutral b > neutral b > neutral b

:ultwolf: - Can't be punished easily with his good frame data being able to escape punishes easily.

These are just reasons I think they're annoying to fight online. Rest of characters aren't so bad for me to fight.

But honestly the characters I find annoying are characters that play cheesy on wifi with the frame drops.
 
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Kokiden

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Is the most annoying the same as the one that appears the most online for you guys?

I’m just curious as to who are the most used characters online right now?
 
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Is the most annoying the same as the one that appears the most online for you guys?

I’m just curious as to who are the most used characters online right now?
No, absolutely not. You rarely see any Bayos or Shieks. The dislike for Shiek comes from Sm4sh time. It's much better now.

Also my opinion on Joker has changed a bit now that I know the MU better. He isn't nearly as annoying as Bayo. That was a bit of a premature placement here..

E: Interesting that you play Zelda but also the characters I dislike fighting. Nice coincidence :p.

If it were the character I encounter online most often, then I guess I'd be Link, though. But Link's really ok to fight for me.
 
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