CorruptFate's Pit match up (Dead go to Master thread)

[CorruptFate]

K so I have updated this for the Ic's. I have also gotten my friend BillytheGoat to come in here and answer questions and help us fight the IC's.

So here are some points of discussion:

Chain grabs, best ways to kill Nana, approch, on the ground, in the air.

 

[kupo15]

AR works well always against them esp at the edge and Uair separates them. Utilt is also very good like Sidestep>Utilt

 

[billythegoat]

Chain Grabs: this is easily solved, simply don't get grabbed. The Ice Climbers a.k.a. the grab wh0r3s have the second lowest traction, one of the shortest grab ranges, and are very light weight. All that this means is that they can't shield grab most attacks. They will be knocked to far. If you do get grabbed make sure that you were able to hit Nana away before you were grabbed. With out her none of the grab combos are possible.
Thats all I can think of at the moment, hope this helps.

 

[Exia 00]

what i do is I get them off the stage and use my arrows to hit nana so she cant assist with the recovery. This works at a high enough percentage (i think) and also depends on your aim .I dont know if thats any help, but your best bet is to seperate them ^_^

 

[Doctor X]

I played M2k's DDD today and I got out of his chain grab. If the DDD does it wrong, then the result is them doing a running grab miss animation. If the DDD player does it correctly, then the wings Cancels the grab animation as if you were to cancel a melee attack.

You have a video? I want to analyze the details. I'm wondering maybe M2K just wasn't fast enough those times you did escape. He's good, yes, but he's not perfect. I'm also willing to admit when I'm wrong, but for now I don't think I am. All the testing I've done personally tells me otherwise. Normally I'd hate to be so doubting, but with this in particular people really like to jump to conclusions...

This has been proven before idk y ppl were doubting. If you can't get out then your timing is wrong. Experiment.

People are doubting because less than like... 10% of the Dedede's you'll find out there actually do the chaingrab right, and almost everybody who has never tried it against a smart player thinks that it's extraordinarily easy to do, when it really isn't. Against some characters it can require nearly frame-perfect timing. A lot of people like to extrapolate their experiences with this kind of stuff to everyone. That, and also the facts of the game-- seeing as there shouldn't really be a situation where you can up-B but can't spot-dodge or roll-- kind of contradict this method of escape.

Edit: As for the IC's, just don't stand in front of them. Be very careful. Wing renewal gimps can be very effective, because even if you can't kill Popo outright you can often knock Nana out of sync well enough to really mess up Popo's recovery.

Edit again: Did some more testing, and as my friend and I just found out, it's possible for you to get the up-B off and still get grabbed, leading me to believe that up-B may be even worse for escaping from Dedede than a dodge. There were a few times where it cancelled the grab like you said, but it's just as likely that this was due to a mistake on Dedede's part rather than anything Pit did.

 

[kupo15]

no i dont because it was in at a tourney and we were doing friendlies. How will you ever be satisfied if you think that every DDD player does it wrong? And if there are a small amount that do it right, how would you know who they are or what a perfect one looks like? It is true that Pit cant get out from DI like the rest of the cast. So why fight it? What do you have to lose by always going for the WoI?

If Pit truly can be CGed with exact frame precision, then it must be impossible to grab at the only frame that it works on consistently which means they would mess up ever so slightly most of the time. If you do nothing then this mistake is unnoticed but if you can WoI out of it, your chances of escape are high due to the difficulty of CGing Pit.

The correct method is to use the standing grab. the Shield A allows you to do the standing grab from a run. I have canceled this standing grab animation. Canceled. I have escaped from M2K when he tried the running grab (he flopped over from the miss) and then again from the ground which I canceled.

Here is my only explanation of why the WoI works and the spot dodge doesn't. It has been discovered that the beginning frames of WoI from the ground contain invincibility frames. And since the WoI is faster than the shield popping up slightly before the dodge, Pit is unaffected by the grab before the wind push hit boxes come out and cancel the grab.

Does this convince you?

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Not only does WoI give you invincibility frames, it pushes your opponent away by a wind based effect allowing you to deal a counter-attack. It is definitely much better then spot dodging.

 

[Doctor X]

no i dont because it was in at a tourney and we were doing friendlies. How will you ever be satisfied if you think that every DDD player does it wrong? And if there are a small amount that do it right, how would you know who they are or what a perfect one looks like? It is true that Pit cant get out from DI like the rest of the cast. So why fight it? What do you have to lose by always going for the WoI?

Whether or not it actually can be guaranteed to work is kind of important if you're looking to discount Dedede's chaingrab from the matchup, as you've attempted to do in this thread.

If Pit truly can be CGed with exact frame precision, then it must be impossible to grab at the only frame that it works on consistently which means they would mess up ever so slightly most of the time. If you do nothing then this mistake is unnoticed but if you can WoI out of it, your chances of escape are high due to the difficulty of CGing Pit.

Maybe it's very difficult, yes, but when we're talking about matchups we're talking about absolutes. Time and time again it's been proven in the smash scene that, no matter how difficult something is to do, if it's strong enough to be worth learning, people will learn to do it consistently.

Discounting the chaingrab entirely because it's "difficult" is rather short-sighted... and honestly, I don't think it's so hard that it isn't already a factor despite Brawl's relatively underdeveloped technical game.

The correct method is to use the standing grab. the Shield A allows you to do the standing grab from a run. I have canceled this standing grab animation. Canceled. I have escaped from M2K when he tried the running grab (he flopped over from the miss) and then again from the ground which I canceled.

I cancelled it, too, against my friend. I've also seen instances where I simply can't do anything period (most of the time) and even a few instances where I get the WoI off and still get grabbed out of the beginning of it.

Here is my only explanation of why the WoI works and the spot dodge doesn't. It has been discovered that the beginning frames of WoI from the ground contain invincibility frames. And since the WoI is faster than the shield popping up slightly before the dodge, Pit is unaffected by the grab before the wind push hit boxes come out and cancel the grab.

It's a possible explanation, but without frame data it's kind of hard to say with any certainty that WoI is faster than a spot dodge. I doubt it is. I think it's far more likely that M2K messed up against you a few times, and those times happened to be the ones where you were attempting to WoI.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

There is a chance that you started up WoI a little too late so that the invincibility frames. Also, have you even tried Kupo's training room to even know how fast people can go with WoI?

 

[kupo15]

Well, you weren't around when this matter was discussed but back then, they said that the invincibility frames is what causes it to miss. If your DDD holds off a little, he can grab you after that frame in over.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

K, I guess I should back off.

 

[kupo15]

lol

10chaingrabs

 

[CorruptFate]

Should It say Ic's or DDD?

 

[Doctor X]

Should It say Ic's or DDD?

Gah. Yeah. Off topic. Sorry.

We should probably shut up about this anyway until we can get some real frame data. Until then, we're mostly arguing over hunches.

 

[CorruptFate]

Its fine and your right once we get frame data some how then back to ddd. But what about IC's?

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

Well, some players in the Ice Climber group can do perfect chain grabs. They seem to think that heavy weights are more of a problem then light weights so consecutive chain grabs may not be as hard to do as you guys think...

 

[CorruptFate]

Here is how I try to see it just to play it safe. If a good Ic's gets the grab your dead they have a few chain grabs that works on any1 and can be turned around so that they don't run out of room on the stage. They can get you to as high of damage as they want then smash so the safest way to think is grab=dead. So lets go with the age old idea of "don't get grabbed" its sounds stupid and is a pain to hear but its true. So instead of thinking "it may be hard to do and they could mess up" lets think, "don't get grabbed" and "grab=dead" because thats what a good Ic's will do. So for talk about grabs how do we avoid them/ keep Nana away so they can't chain grab.

 

[Rogue Pit]

Kupo pit can be d3 CGed only way to get out is if the d3 messes up. Its just harder because pit slides farther.

You have a video? I want to analyze the details. I'm wondering maybe M2K just wasn't fast enough those times you did escape. He's good, yes, but he's not perfect. I'm also willing to admit when I'm wrong, but for now I don't think I am. All the testing I've done personally tells me otherwise. Normally I'd hate to be so doubting, but with this in particular people really like to jump to conclusions...



People are doubting because less than like... 10% of the Dedede's you'll find out there actually do the chaingrab right, and almost everybody who has never tried it against a smart player thinks that it's extraordinarily easy to do, when it really isn't. Against some characters it can require nearly frame-perfect timing. A lot of people like to extrapolate their experiences with this kind of stuff to everyone. That, and also the facts of the game-- seeing as there shouldn't really be a situation where you can up-B but can't spot-dodge or roll-- kind of contradict this method of escape.

Edit again: Did some more testing, and as my friend and I just found out, it's possible for you to get the up-B off and still get grabbed, leading me to believe that up-B may be even worse for escaping from Dedede than a dodge. There were a few times where it cancelled the grab like you said, but it's just as likely that this was due to a mistake on Dedede's part rather than anything Pit did.

Right but i disagree with some. Theres more than 10% but they are humans and cannot do it perfectly everytime. Pits ground traction causes him to slide farther, making d3 have to run farther and faster for pit than most chars but is indeed possible. Now i doubt step dodge is better, wing push has saved me more than a step dodge. When your shield comes up they probably can grab you unless u have perfect timing. But wings seem to be safer. Unless d3 predicts your moves.

I played M2k's DDD today and I got out of his chain grab. If the DDD does it wrong, then the result is them doing a running grab miss animation. If the DDD player does it correctly, then the wings Cancels the grab animation as if you were to cancel a melee attack.

This has been proven before idk y ppl were doubting. If you can't get out then your timing is wrong. Experiment.

Thats incorrect, i was at the same tourney and the one in princeton, if d3 is perfect there is nothing you can do. If they mess up as in start running too late than you can get out.

no i dont because it was in at a tourney and we were doing friendlies. How will you ever be satisfied if you think that every DDD player does it wrong? And if there are a small amount that do it right, how would you know who they are or what a perfect one looks like? It is true that Pit cant get out from DI like the rest of the cast. So why fight it? What do you have to lose by always going for the WoI?

If Pit truly can be CGed with exact frame precision, then it must be impossible to grab at the only frame that it works on consistently which means they would mess up ever so slightly most of the time. If you do nothing then this mistake is unnoticed but if you can WoI out of it, your chances of escape are high due to the difficulty of CGing Pit.

Completely agree with the try wings part. But it is possible and can happen but when you escape they did do it wrong. If it can happen constantly and you cant do anything about it, pit is CG able. Just so few people can do it right every time.

Kupo quote-
The correct method is to use the standing grab. the Shield A allows you to do the standing grab from a run. I have canceled this standing grab animation. Canceled. I have escaped from M2K when he tried the running grab (he flopped over from the miss) and then again from the ground which I canceled.

Here is my only explanation of why the WoI works and the spot dodge doesn't. It has been discovered that the beginning frames of WoI from the ground contain invincibility frames. And since the WoI is faster than the shield popping up slightly before the dodge, Pit is unaffected by the grab before the wind push hit boxes come out and cancel the grab.

Does this convince you? end quote.

Possible i guess, hard to time n unlikely, yea.

Here is how I try to see it just to play it safe. If a good Ic's gets the grab your dead they have a few chain grabs that works on any1 and can be turned around so that they don't run out of room on the stage. They can get you to as high of damage as they want then smash so the safest way to think is grab=dead. So lets go with the age old idea of "don't get grabbed" its sounds stupid and is a pain to hear but its true. So instead of thinking "it may be hard to do and they could mess up" lets think, "don't get grabbed" and "grab=dead" because thats what a good Ic's will do. So for talk about grabs how do we avoid them/ keep Nana away so they can't chain grab.

If grab is envitibly gonna happen, a looped arrow can help.

Also m2k litterly said this to my face when i hit him in the head with a pillow.

Sorry bout off topic Cfate. May Palutena Guide You.

 

[kupo15]

i still disagree but the wings will get you out of it more than anything else

 

[CorruptFate]

If grab is envitibly gonna happen, a looped arrow can help.

Also m2k litterly said this to my face when i hit him in the head with a pillow.

Sorry bout off topic Cfate. May Palutena Guide You.

Its fine at least you talked about fighting Ic's and its good to see you back on the Pit boards keep posting and help us out.

 

[Ryanarius]

Ice climbers your best bet really is the don't get grabbed. Watch your spacing don't dash attack unless its a gaurenteed hit and make sure you finish your aerials before you land. Also ice climbers have something similar to laser lock where if they catch you on your back they can trap you with there icicle things until you hit an edge. Although its not as painful as laser lock its still a pain that you can generally avoid by just making sure you don't land on your back after a hit. If all else fails and you get grabbed on your final stock you can always try pause comboing out but for some reason this is frowned upon :-p.

edit: to clarify pause combo was a joke.

 

[CorruptFate]

Its also banned it tournies to pause. So we understand that if you get grabed your dead. How do we approch them. I know sagemoon would disagree with me on this but I think that the Ic's win in approch as they can desink short hop there ice blocks, or infa qual hammer.

 

[billythegoat]

I really think that your best bet is to force them to approach you.
The ice climbers have a weak aireal game which means that they will be approaching from the ground. This makes them predictable.

 

[DiosDePyro]

I would say the best things to do are separate them and take the fight to the air. You've got four jumps, use them! Try to lure them into the air and punish them from there. If either of you stay airborne, I would believe it's almost impossible to be grabbed (they're so short, can they grab out of the air?). When you're both grounded, keep your distance. The icicles have a tendency to be easily reflected (I did it with a ftilt once), so try and use that to your advantage.

 

[CorruptFate]

They still belong to the Ic's when reflected, so its not really reflected, and if you do trully reflect them one hits the other and they both stop causeing them to advance on you as you sit behind your shield and pray for death. Don't try to reflect them.

 

[DiosDePyro]

They still belong to the Ic's when reflected, so its not really reflected, and if you do trully reflect them one hits the other and they both stop causeing them to advance on you as you sit behind your shield and pray for death. Don't try to reflect them.

oh really? i guess i've never been close enough to hit them with it then. my mistake.

 

[CorruptFate]

Its fine thats what this thread is here for.

Any way I think the best way to approch is to fly or jump over there as fast as you can, a glide attack might work and you can do it into an up air at low %'s. The up air will seperate them. Sounds like a good way to start the match to me.

Also if Popo is alone the Ic's over b can't go up it can only go to the side, i've had a few matchs against billythegoat where I have sniped his Nana right before he used his over B causing him to die when he could normally get back. To stop there up B try to things, if there are far enough way and you wanta kill Nana just hold the edge nana will still go forward but not grab the edge (this will cause her to fall to here death most of the time) then Popo will get back. Also if Nana has grabbed the edge there is a sec where you can hit Popo with a bair or fair as he is coming back. This isn't to hard to do as you know exactly where he will be going there is even a line between them you can fallow.

 

[Bomber7]

Pit has such an advantage over IC. He has range and control of the air pretty much.

 

[CorruptFate]

So for PT how do we fight each of them, lets get some info on switching and how to handle that, how to fight each of them seperate, gimping, whats best against each of them. Also I don't have a guest for this 1 so if some1 does bring them in.

 

[Rayo1]

well i play against my friends D3 alot pit can up-B out of his chaingrab and can follow that up with a dair but dont do it consitently as he will jump and attack as soon as you up-b so when he jumps hit with an up-air as that will add more percentage to him. hope this helps you guys

 

[Ryanarius]

I missed the character change. My main opponent plays PT as a for fun character or to be more precise he plays charizard as a for fun character and complains while playing the other characters that he can't just play as a dragon.

PT isn't a very good character so pit already has that going for him in the matchup. Still he does seem to matchup surprisingly well against pit.

First thing you need to get over is some of the pokemon moves are just kind of odd. Playing a couple games against just to understand there range and attacks is useful.

Charizard first because he's dragon. Charzard tends to be pretty strong straight in front of him but if you get at an angle he's considerably weaker. Rock slam is a move you need to watch out for just because its weird. It hovers a bit longer then you think it should if you shield it don't let your shield down to early. The fire breath is a bit annoying but you can di out of it without taking much damage. His fsmash moves him and is deadly so watch out for that. His glide attack isn't very good so just because you see him glide don't expect a pit level of glide attack. He's a bit heavy but once you get him in the air he juggle-able.

squirtle. The main thing I find with squirtle is you have to change your mindset against him. Both ivy and charizard tend to be more hard hitter type while squirtle is the fast hit and run type. My opponent hates squirtle's play style so I can't give you to much input on him. His recovery isn't very good so edge guarding him is a very good option. On the opposite side of the spectrum he has a decent edge gaurd game. As we're playing pit as long as you don't get to arrogant shooting arrows while recovering you should be alright.

ivy. I personally think ivysuar is the weakest of the three. He suffers from having teather recovery. So once you get him off the edge if your edgehogging he will not be able to recovery using his up b. He's also larger then olimar thus easier to juggle with slower attacks. Some of his attacks do hit really weird though so understand what he can do before you go into this matchup.

Again my friend only plays pokemon trainer as a fun character and thus he doesn't play PT in the most effective to win style more the most fun style so I can't really say what a really good PT player will do its more just observations from my matches against the character.

 

[Aminar]

Squirtle is trouble. He's fast and manueverable. Arrows are mostly a big no. AR can work well, but watch for Fsmashes. Aerial approaches are rough if he stays grounded. Just rack up damage and hope the opponent prefers the other two. Not that squirtles impossible but Ivy and Char are easier. You should have more range in the air and on the ground aso play careful.

DO NOT approach Ivysaur from above. It is very verybad. Jugglehim as much as possible. DTilt sets up for this well. Ledgehog the recovery. Force the approach.

Charizard is easy to juggle do falling Bairs, fairs and Nairs. Your airgame owns his because you are more manueverable. Use Wingrenewal to edgeguard as he glides SLOW. Wtahc the UPB Superarmor, try to nair it. Stay at diagonals and you should be good. Arrows can work well forstopping te glide early.

 

[WolfCypher]

With the exception of some large targets (Wario, if he counts as a large target), I find myself having the easiest time picking off big hitters (Ike notwithstanding). Charizard is only a threat to Pit if you let it become a threat. One simple strategy I use, and I'm sure this is not new, is to pluck Arrows after Arrows after Arrows and force Charizard to approach me. Its side-stepping and roll dodging isn't that great, so you still have a bit of an advantage. Its BAir is like a slower version of Pit's, so approaching an airborn Charizard with its back to you is risky, unless you space you attack (very easy with Pit's glide attack and FAir). If you take Charizard on face-to-face, watch out for Rock Smash; that hurts like hell.

Ivysaur has some powerful aerials as well as its USmash. Spacing won't work well here because if the opponent knows what they're doing, they too will be spacing, and Ivysaur's attacks already have great range to begin with. Being a tether-recovery dependant, I like to gimp Ivysaur every chance I get. Repeated BAir (or FAir since that's easier) to hit them further away from the stage (or completely out of the stage's boundry, resulting in a KO, but anyway), then make sure Ivysaur cannot grab the ledge afterwards. And don't worry about Ivysaur gimping you during a WoI recovery...Ivysaur doesn't have many options there.

Squirtle...hmmm...fast attacks, nice combos, a hard to stop BForward, nice aerials, and its a small target. For Pit, Squirtle may be the more difficult of the Trainer's three Pokémon. You can't really rush this battle, unless Squirtle makes a dumb move, and camping isn't effective, what with Squirtle's BFoward, small size, and speed; more so than any of the other Pokémon, Squirtle can approach you with no promblems.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I hope no one minds if I pop in for a little bit?

I honestly haven't played many Pit's since North American launch date, but I'll try to post what I thought at the time. Some of these strategies might be a little dated, though (Pit's).

I find Squirtle having the easiest time, here. Squirtle doesn't really fear the arrows in the slightest (His dash avoids them if you don't bend them and his pivot makes it difficult to aim them since he can move backwards so quickly) so I wouldn't really try those as often as normal. Pit's range is also really small, and Squirtle really likes that, since it's usually his main problem. From what I remember, Pit has a hard time getting kills without Bair, so Squirtle's doesn't mind his weight as much.

Ivysaur is mainly ground based, and Pit can outcamp it. At close range, however, I think Ivysaur doesn't fare so badly. Ivysaur will beat Pit out for range, and generally will try to keep you farther with Bair and Ftilt. Ivysaur's aerials aren't particularly strong, though. Ftilt kills if fresh, although Uair has good kill potential. Ivysaur's most reliable killer is Fsmash though, so watch out for that. Ivysaur hates being put into the air, though, so that's probably what you should do. Ivysaur WILL gimp you if you use WoI, as even the lightest attack will knock you out of it. Bair is a humongous semi-circle that executes quickly, and then it'll just tether back. Pit should do his best to get Ivysaur off the stage and then provide a good edge-guard with his multiple jumps if he wants to get rid of Ivysaur quickly.

Charizard doesn't really like arrows because they can bend and he has low jumps. Still, Charizard has larger range than you once he closes in. Charizard's Bair has more range than Pit's Bair if I recall correctly, and the sweet-spot will kill. Charizard is going to attempt to edgeguard you and force you to use WoI as well, and then he's going to hit you, if he doesn't outright kill you with Fair, Bair, or Dair. I think the one thing that you guys have failed to mention is that Charizard's grab range is HUGE, and Charizard likes to take advantage of both of his grabs to send you over the edge.

 

[Elliot Gale]

Squirtle does fine, a tad of a disadvantage because of disjointed hitboxes, but nothing he can't work around. Fairly neutral as far as both sides are concerned.

Ivysaur and Charizard have to play an agro game and stay close. When they're too close to arrow, things become a lot easier for them (Ftilt and Grabs being the primary weapons respectively). Ivysaur is at a clear disadvantage, though I don't believe it's huge. Charizard, eh, I can't really say. Only "good" Pit I've ever played has had lag issues with me since day one.

 

[kupo15]

Squirtle is troublesome due to his speed. Sometimes a mirror shield throws them off for their aerials. One good thing to know is if he does his side b, all you have to do is fall on there head and they can't do anything for about 3 secs.

Ivy is pretty predictable once in the air.

Angel ring works pretty well against Charizards Rock smash. It breaks it up before he chomps and reflects the fragments. Be careful of his grab. It is longer than you expect.

 

[CorruptFate]

Your biggest problem is squirtal hes fast small and good sweet air game. It always confused me why the lowest evoultion of the 3 is the best.

I think Ivy is the next he he has strong up kill and Pit can't deal with that, he is easy to gimp but an Ivy will do every thing it can to avoid this.

Charazard is your own personal punching bag, you can arrow him tell you fall on the ground laughing, you both have strong air game but Pit's is better, with better reach. Because of his size he is an easy target for arrows, bair and fair. Once you get him off the stage he's not to hard to kill, arrow him to gimp jumps, and avoid his spike and sweet fair. If you have trouble with Charazard your a bad person and should feel bad.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Squirtle is argueably the worst Pokemon. Just because he does well versus Pit doesn't mean he does well everywhere else. His range is so miniscule, eh has problems with just about anyone that can out-range him. But not relevant to this thread.

I'd test Pit's range versus Charizard's range myself, but my Wii is in for repairs. I'm almost certain sweet-spot Bair will be trouble for Pit? It's way more reliable than Fair.

 

[CorruptFate]

I haven't keeped up with who is the best of the 3 but from what i've heard here and there and from playing against PT with more then just my Pit i've seen Squirtle is at least the hardest for me to fight. But yes for this match up he is the hardest to deal with and should be feared the most of the 3. Also from my match ups Charazard is the easiest for Pit to fight. But this is just from my matchs and the PT I play isn't the best PT player in town.

 

[CorruptFate]

Talk was slow (2 days no post)so we moved on. How do we deal with Falco?

Topics to hit:

Chain grab

Refector

Lazer

DLX combo (running attack to up smash)

meteor (all spikes in brawl are trully meteors, meteor's can be meteor canceled, spikes can not because all of these kind of attacks in brawl can be canceled they are all trully meteors)

Speed/recovery