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Complete Character Matchup Synopsis: UPDATED WITH FRAME COMPARISONS

The Phazon Assassin

The Phazon Assassin

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ChiboSempai said:
Captain Falcon: 60-40 (Rush, TUSM)
Link: 65-35 (?)
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YESZ!!!

My Link is kinda bad, but we can fight a few matches just to see how bad it is.

GwJumpman said:
How the **** do you handle Diddy other than winning on your easy counterpick? T_T
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I went through a phase where I used R.O.B. to fight Diddy's online. If you know how to use bananas in a similar manner as Diddy would, you can do just as well. R.O.B.'s glide toss is extremely effective given the distance he travels, but, that's just my opinion. According to Chibo, I don't count because I don't main R.O.B.
 
ZOM~B

ZOM~B

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ROB vs D3 is even. It's just not fun. Of the 3 tournament games I've played with Co18, ROB vs D3, they've all been very close.
 
Camalange

Camalange

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Two things.

1. The Matchup Matrix is completely missing Sonic. I didn't bother to check what other characters were missing, so maybe you just didn't finalize making it yet...?

2. I was here before discussing the Sonic v ROB MU but it seems we never really had much input after I put my final thoughts, so I'm kinda lost here.

ChiboSempai said:
Sonic: 65-35 (Camalange, Wes, MalcomM)
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I agree with this.

Darth Waffles said:
Chibo, play Lawz's link at No Maps if you're going
Click to expand...
And this xD

:093:
 
Syde7

Syde7

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Camalange said:
Two things.

1. The Matchup Matrix is completely missing Sonic. I didn't bother to check what other characters were missing, so maybe you just didn't finalize making it yet...?

:093:
Click to expand...
I realized that awhile ago, and just changed it around today, though ive yet to upload that version. I threw him in after Falcon bc I had already flattened the background image in photoshop. lol
 
Camalange

Camalange

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DuLL_RaZer said:
I realized that awhile ago, and just changed it around today, though ive yet to upload that version. I threw him in after Falcon bc I had already flattened the background image in photoshop. lol
Click to expand...
lol, Sonic 4 worst character in Brawl xD

:093:
 
Mr.E

Mr.E

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The only thing that would make ROB-D3 not-even is the fact that the ROB player has to put in a lot more effort than the Dedede player. :embarrass
 
CT Chia

CT Chia

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-ROBs not too good at killing, DDD is heavy as hell
-Once DDD gets a grabbed your going to take a bunch of damage and be set up for a edgeguard. DDD's dthrow to dtilt also works on ROB.
-ROB can do decent against DDD in the air at low percents, but once DDD gets anywhere near mid %s your moves won't connect and he will be able to start using his moves that outprioritize yours.
-ROBs projectile game is severely hampered if the DDD is good at powershielding, being a heavy ground based character, and having minions to help block things like your gyro.
-DDD has insane grab range, and can out-space and out-prioritize you with moves like ftilt.

The absolute lowest I would be willing to see it as is 35-65.

Keep in mind that all of the ratios I gave were as I envision it approaching top level play for both characters. You're not going to be having a hopeless match against the average DDD or MK. A tough one sure, but not as bad as the ratios make it out to be. But once you start thinking of what ROB can possibly do and compare it to these characters, ROB comes up short in most situations against the 2 main poor matchups (MK and DDD).

If we're talking average play, especially if the opponent doesn't have too much knowledge on the matchup, a lot of things change probably such as:
(Yes, I actually find an average skill DDD harder than an average MK)

Falco 50:50
Olimar 55:45
MK 40:60
DDD 35:65

On the contrary however, if ROB doesn't have sufficient match up knowledge going into certain situations, some matchups get considerably harder such as GaW, Marth, Pit, ZSS.
 
ZOM~B

ZOM~B

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ChiboSempai said:
-ROBs not too good at killing, DDD is heavy as hell
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ROB can't kill anyone. Dedede is not hard to rack up damage on, but what you rack damage on him with is your juggling game. Also Dedede is one of the few characters ROB can legitimately hit with upsmash as well as get guaranteed kill moves without a read.

-Once DDD gets a grabbed your going to take a bunch of damage and be set up for a edgeguard. DDD's dthrow to dtilt also works on ROB.
Click to expand...
dthrow to dtilt does not work if you predict it and DI correctly/air dodge after the throw. I've watched this whiff on me so much and it just means a free ledge grab after the dthrow.


-ROB can do decent against DDD in the air at low percents, but once DDD gets anywhere near mid %s your moves won't connect and he will be able to start using his moves that outprioritize yours.
Click to expand...
Yes, ROB can juggle D3 until 70%+ easily. And his moves just take a little bit of reading. Stay on the ground, directly below the Dedede. Here you either predict one of two things: The dedede tries to dair you, or the dedede does not. If you predict the first, you shield and punish the large amount of lag. If you predict the second, you either preemptively jump and upair, or grab as he tries to land and repeat the process.

-ROBs projectile game is severely hampered if the DDD is good at powershielding, being a heavy ground based character, and having minions to help block things like your gyro.
-DDD has insane grab range, and can out-space and out-prioritize you with moves like ftilt.
Click to expand...
This is not Dedede exclusive. Besides, when DDD is off stage, he eats a lot of projectiles recovering, because of his fast fall, he can't afford to air dodge off stage too much. Meaning you can rack up damage, then punish his recovery, and repeat.

Let's talk about things ROB can do in this matchup:

1.) Properly staggered jabs beat out Dedede's shield grab in speed!

2.) ROB's ftilt out ranges Dedede's shield grab.

3.) If Dedede is facing ROB, rising fair is safe if spaced well (to avoid the uptilt)

4.) ROB can recover very high, or very low, with relative ease.

5.) Back air brickwalls Dedede as long as you have space.

6.) Dedede's recovery allows ROB to accumulate a lot of damage and land kill moves whenever Dedede is knocked away from the stage.

7.) ROB can refresh moves by jabbing waddle dees and waddle doos.

8.) ROB should not die until 140%+ unless he is hit by uptilt (No reason for ROB to be so close to Dedede) or is edgeguarded (Rare situation once ROB recovers properly)

9.) ROB does not have to fight on the "long side" of the stage! He can camp near the edge. This neutralizes the effectiveness of Dedede's chain grab.

10.) Dedede must approach, and makes a difficult target to miss with projectiles.

11.) When edgeguarding, Dedede can't afford many air dodges, making him vulnerable to projectiles and fair. When forced to use his recovery, Dedede can be knocked away from the stage to eat more projectile damage, or if spaced and timed properly can be hit by upsmash if you predict his recovery trajectory.

I'm sure I could list more.
 
Syde7

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Yes, ROB can juggle D3 until 70%+ easily. And his moves just take a little bit of reading. Stay on the ground, directly below the Dedede. Here you either predict one of two things: The dedede tries to dair you, or the dedede does not. If you predict the first, you shield and punish the large amount of lag. If you predict the second, you either preemptively jump and upair, or grab as he tries to land and repeat the process.
Click to expand...
And... when he falls down onto your shield with an inhale...???
 
CT Chia

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ZOM~B said:
1.) Properly staggered jabs beat out Dedede's shield grab in speed!
DDD can just wait to shield grab after your jab?

2.) ROB's ftilt out ranges Dedede's shield grab.
It doesn't outrange DDD's ftilt. DDD can also shield a ftilt and have time to dash grab.

3.) If Dedede is facing ROB, rising fair is safe if spaced well (to avoid the uptilt)
It's safe, but if shielded it doesn't accomplish anything.

4.) ROB can recover very high, or very low, with relative ease.

5.) Back air brickwalls Dedede as long as you have space.
Setting up a wall with bair in any matchup generally isn't a good strategy. ROB slowly moves back as he do it, so if the opponent doesn't mindlessly charge into it, then ROB will eventually be cornered.

6.) Dedede's recovery allows ROB to accumulate a lot of damage and land kill moves whenever Dedede is knocked away from the stage.
Except at mid-high percents off stage when DDD can outprioritize your air attacks with his fair and/or bair.

7.) ROB can refresh moves by jabbing waddle dees and waddle doos.
You shouldn't have time to do this in the middle of a match, and it won't help THAT much.

8.) ROB should not die until 140%+ unless he is hit by uptilt (No reason for ROB to be so close to Dedede) or is edgeguarded (Rare situation once ROB recovers properly)
Don't say shouldn't if you're going to follow with exceptions lol

9.) ROB does not have to fight on the "long side" of the stage! He can camp near the edge. This neutralizes the effectiveness of Dedede's chain grab.
This is only really effective when you have a percent lead, which it's likely that you won't since DDD kills earlier, lives longer, and has a damage racking CG.

10.) Dedede must approach, and makes a difficult target to miss with projectiles.
I don't see why DDD has to approach, see above.

11.) When edgeguarding, Dedede can't afford many air dodges, making him vulnerable to projectiles and fair. When forced to use his recovery, Dedede can be knocked away from the stage to eat more projectile damage, or if spaced and timed properly can be hit by upsmash if you predict his recovery trajectory.
With proper DI up, DDD has plenty time to air dodge more than once and has plenty of jumps at his disposal to get around whatever at high percents.

I'm sure I could list more.
Click to expand...
.10chibos.
 
ZOM~B

ZOM~B

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ChiboSempai said:
1.) Properly staggered jabs beat out Dedede's shield grab in speed!
DDD can just wait to shield grab after your jab?
See, but that's the point of staggered jabs. You do the first hit jab on his shield, and "predict" when he's going to grab. Either he waits for the second jab or he goes right away. If he goes right away you jab again and stuff his grab. If he waits you simply don't second jab. It's not a "guaranteed" thing, but if you mix it up with "First hit jab, jump away" and "First hit jab, second jab", you make the Dedede uncertain what to do after shielding a jab.

2.) ROB's ftilt out ranges Dedede's shield grab.
It doesn't outrange DDD's ftilt. DDD can also shield a ftilt and have time to dash grab.
Right, it doesn't. But projectiles easily beat out DDD's ftilt, and so does shielding. It's not directly punishable, but it's also neither a good kill move or damage racking move. As for the dash grab I'm not sure I believe this if the ftilt is properly spaced(except maybe on powershield with a frame perfect reaction speed).

3.) If Dedede is facing ROB, rising fair is safe if spaced well (to avoid the uptilt)
It's safe, but if shielded it doesn't accomplish anything.
Right, but it's a "safe option"

4.) ROB can recover very high, or very low, with relative ease.

5.) Back air brickwalls Dedede as long as you have space.
Setting up a wall with bair in any matchup generally isn't a good strategy. ROB slowly moves back as he do it, so if the opponent doesn't mindlessly charge into it, then ROB will eventually be cornered.
Again, this is solely because it's a safe option. It will teach the Dedede to be more careful about what he does if you mixup your normal game with bair. Bair will stuff ALL of his approaches and everything he does except ftilt (unless you're really obvious with it and he runs forward and powershield-grabs it)

6.) Dedede's recovery allows ROB to accumulate a lot of damage and land kill moves whenever Dedede is knocked away from the stage.
Except at mid-high percents off stage when DDD can outprioritize your air attacks with his fair and/or bair.
Force him to use his upB and you get free damage/kill. That's all. Can't use aerials while UpB'ing.

7.) ROB can refresh moves by jabbing waddle dees and waddle doos.
You shouldn't have time to do this in the middle of a match, and it won't help THAT much.
It's a useful tidbit to know. Maybe you shouldn't use weak lasers. They don't help THAT much.

8.) ROB should not die until 140%+ unless he is hit by uptilt (No reason for ROB to be so close to Dedede) or is edgeguarded (Rare situation once ROB recovers properly)
Don't say shouldn't if you're going to follow with exceptions lol
Name one common situation where ROB is at 100+% and has to put him in a situation where he can be hit by uptilt. Also note number 4 and your lack of an argument for it. These exceptions only happen because of incorrect play.

9.) ROB does not have to fight on the "long side" of the stage! He can camp near the edge. This neutralizes the effectiveness of Dedede's chain grab.
This is only really effective when you have a percent lead, which it's likely that you won't since DDD kills earlier, lives longer, and has a damage racking CG.
Note how you say that you will be behind because of a damage racking CG, but why did you put yourself in a position to be CG'd when you begin the game tied?

10.) Dedede must approach, and makes a difficult target to miss with projectiles.
I don't see why DDD has to approach, see above.
Because the game starts out tied and ROB has better offensive options from long range which will inevitably lead to Dedede being slightly behind.

11.) When edgeguarding, Dedede can't afford many air dodges, making him vulnerable to projectiles and fair. When forced to use his recovery, Dedede can be knocked away from the stage to eat more projectile damage, or if spaced and timed properly can be hit by upsmash if you predict his recovery trajectory.
With proper DI up, DDD has plenty time to air dodge more than once and has plenty of jumps at his disposal to get around whatever at high percents.
Still, Dedede is one of the fastest fallers in the game. You need only one read->fair in order to force his incredibly disadvantageous upB.
Click to expand...
10D3vsROBisEven
 
Mister Eric

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Very impressed I am by the frame charts as well.

BEEPBEEP!
 
D

Darth Waffles

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Tin Man said:
What is the Olimar matchup ratio, our advantage or theirs?
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Probably something like 45-55 Olimar IMO. It's not like a counter but getting camped + pikmin combo'ed works well enough to balance offstage issues. It's definitely do-able from ROB's side, just a slightly uphill battle, easier offstage, worse with platforms
 
M

Mag!c

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A big thing with Olimar for me is he's so frustrating. That /hope mentality I get when I start wiffing attacks due to his small size, and then get schooled, just puts me off.
/hope
 
zeldspazz

zeldspazz

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Ok this is sorta random, but I just noticed that Sonic is missing from your matchup chart O.O Idk if that was intentional or not, but I thought I might point that out.

*goes back to lurking*
 
TheMike

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DuLL_RaZer said:
Japes is a decent pick, IMO.
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Serioulsly? I don't think in Japes being a good CP for ROB aganst G&W, i'valready seen G&W surviving at a fresh Olimar's Fsmash at 200% wth DI + Bucket Brake and ROB has dificulties to kil. Besides, G&W continues doing **** with Bair anyway =[
 
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