R.O.B. MATCHUP SYNOPSES
Table Of Contents:
(0.1)- Introduction
(1.0)- Color-Coded Matchup Chart
(1.1); Color Code Explanation
(2.0)- Metaknight
(2.1); Overall Strategy
(2.2); Defragmentation Data
(2.3); Stages
(2.4); Zoning Discussion
(2.5); Specific Moves Guide
(2.6); Frame Data
(2.7); Conclusion
(3.0)- Mr. Game & Watch(2.2); Defragmentation Data
(2.3); Stages
(2.4); Zoning Discussion
(2.5); Specific Moves Guide
(2.6); Frame Data
(2.7); Conclusion
(3.1); Overall Strategy
(3.2); Defragmentation Data
(3.3); Stages
(3.4); Zoning Discussion
(3.5); Specific Moves Guide
(3.6); Frame Data
(3.7); Conclusion
(4.0)- King DeDeDe(3.2); Defragmentation Data
(3.3); Stages
(3.4); Zoning Discussion
(3.5); Specific Moves Guide
(3.6); Frame Data
(3.7); Conclusion
(4.1); Overall Strategy
(4.2); Defragmentation Data
(4.3); Stages
(4.4); Zoning Discussion
(4.5); Specific Moves Guide
(4.6); Frame Data
(4.7); Conclusion
(5.0)- Diddy Kong(4.2); Defragmentation Data
(4.3); Stages
(4.4); Zoning Discussion
(4.5); Specific Moves Guide
(4.6); Frame Data
(4.7); Conclusion
(5.1); Overall Strategy
(5.2); Defragmentation Data
(5.3); Stages
(5.4); Zoning Discussion
(5.5); Specific Moves Guide
(5.6); Frame Data
(5.7); Conclusion
(6.0)- Kirby(5.2); Defragmentation Data
(5.3); Stages
(5.4); Zoning Discussion
(5.5); Specific Moves Guide
(5.6); Frame Data
(5.7); Conclusion
(6.1); Overall Strategy
(6.2); Defragmentation Data
(6.3); Stages
(6.4); Zoning Discussion
(6.5); Specific Moves Guide
(6.6); Frame Data
(6.7); Conclusion
(7.0)- Donkey Kong(6.2); Defragmentation Data
(6.3); Stages
(6.4); Zoning Discussion
(6.5); Specific Moves Guide
(6.6); Frame Data
(6.7); Conclusion
(7.1); Overall Strategy
(7.2); Defragmentation Data
(7.3); Stages
(7.4); Zoning Discussion
(7.5); Specific Moves Guide
(7.6); Frame Data
(7.7); Conclusion
(8.0)- Falco(7.2); Defragmentation Data
(7.3); Stages
(7.4); Zoning Discussion
(7.5); Specific Moves Guide
(7.6); Frame Data
(7.7); Conclusion
(8.1); Overall Strategy
(8.2); Defragmentation Data
(8.3); Stages
(8.4); Zoning Discussion
(8.5); Specific Moves Guide
(8.6); Frame Data
(8.7); Conclusion
(9.0)- Marth(8.2); Defragmentation Data
(8.3); Stages
(8.4); Zoning Discussion
(8.5); Specific Moves Guide
(8.6); Frame Data
(8.7); Conclusion
(9.1); Overall Strategy
(9.2); Defragmentation Data
(9.3); Stages
(9.4); Zoning Discussion
(9.5); Specific Moves Guide
(9.6); Frame Data
(9.7); Conclusion
(10.0)- Lucario(9.2); Defragmentation Data
(9.3); Stages
(9.4); Zoning Discussion
(9.5); Specific Moves Guide
(9.6); Frame Data
(9.7); Conclusion
(10.1); Overall Strategy
(10.2); Defragmentation Data
(10.3; Stages
(10.4); Zoning Discussion
(10.5); Specific Moves Guide
(10.6); Frame Data
(10.7); Conclusion
(10.0)-Snake(10.2); Defragmentation Data
(10.3; Stages
(10.4); Zoning Discussion
(10.5); Specific Moves Guide
(10.6); Frame Data
(10.7); Conclusion
(10.1); Overall Strategy
(10.2); Defragmentation Data
(10.3; Stages
(10.4); Zoning Discussion
(10.5); Specific Moves Guide
(10.6); Frame Data
(10.7); Conclusion
(0.5) Introduction:(10.2); Defragmentation Data
(10.3; Stages
(10.4); Zoning Discussion
(10.5); Specific Moves Guide
(10.6); Frame Data
(10.7); Conclusion
The "Complete Character Matchup Synoposes" is the compilation of a wide array of data pertaining to matchups between R.O.B. and the rest of the roster. The compiled information was obtained through perusing matchup discussions (on both the ROB & his opposing character boards if applicable), stage discussions (on both the ROB & his opposing characters boards if applicable) and selecting the pieces of information that were agreed upon/mutually understood between not only parties of the same character, but both characters.
Often times, individuals will not divulge "all" the information they have available on their boards in an attempt to keep things "secret". Rest assured, that I have scoured to the best of my ability to find every piece of available information.
Additionally, I have also added a few person insights which can be differentiated by noting my uses of the phrases "imo", "personally", "in my experience", etc.
If anything is grossly innacurate, please let me know and I will attempt to fix it if sound reasoning is provided. These matchups are always evolving, and I hope that with regular contributions by the community, I can keep these up to date and accurate as best as possible.
Finally, you can navigate quickly through this by utilizing the table of contents, and the "Search" function on your computer (Control+F for PC, Apple+F {I think} for Mac)
(1.0) Color-Coded Matchup Chart:
(1.1) Color-Code Explanation;
People internalize data differently. Some internalize concrete, rational, numerical data; while others prefer more abstract notions. In an attempt to please both parties, I have completely revamped the color coding system, as well as made a brand spankin' new chart. In each box below the portrait of the character (R.O.B.'s opponent), the matchup ratio will be placed. Additionally, the box will be colored in such a way that it corresponds with the "scale" at the bottom of the chart.
It is important to note, that each of the titles "Disadvantage", "Neutral", and "Advantage" are written with letters of varying colors. This is to signify the varying degrees with which ROB is at an advantage or disadvantage. Additionally, matchups that are considered "Neutral" can still "lean" one way or the other; either towards a "60/40" or "40/60", without going so far as to officially call it one way or another. That is to say, matchups can differ in their "difficulty" within any given ratio.
*Note: The ZSS matchup has three colors- depending on profficiency level with the infinite.
(2.0) Metaknight
credit to *pnutink @ deviantart for the image
This is by far ROB’s worst matchup (at least- worst matchup without broken infinites!). May God, Allah, any number of the Indian Gods/Goddesses, Zeus and the entire Greek crew, Odin, and Lady Luck be on your side in this matchup. You will need it. With that being said:
(2,1) Overall Strategy:
First and foremost, play intelligently. This is one matchup where you HAVE to play a near perfect game. Don’t try to go “move for move” in a super offensive manner against MK, as most of his moves come out faster than yours, AND have a higher priority.
As I said, do not engage MK in the air, unless you are extremely confident that you are in a favorable percentage. Resist the urge to “combo” him in an attempt to get ahead, especially at lower percents- as the brief hit-stun will probably have worn off, and you will be eating a Shuttleloop, N-air, or F-air; depending on the situation & position of the characters in relation to one another. In other words, know when to take your foot off the gas.
One of the majorly overlooked “small battles” in this matchup, is the grab/anti-grab game. MK’s dashgrabs are fast, and effective. There will inevitably a battle of wits in terms of grabbing. If you spot-dodge enough grabs, then the MK player can/will space themselves accordingly, run through your spotdodge, and pivot grab you. If you attempt to f-air a re-grab, they can also run past and pivot grab, or wait till the brief cooldown of your F-air and grab again or move into an aerial assault. This face of the matchup is a chess-match. While on its surface it doesn’t seem that important, a grab by MK puts you in the air and on the defensive, a place you DO NOT want to be against MK.
On the ground, for the most part, you out-range him/go even with him. F-tilt is long, but super slow (in comparison), and so use it wisely, as you can/will be punished for it if it is poorly spaced/timed; most notably by the MK player “Running up--> Shield (will spotdodge/roll back to bait a grab if you’ve been doing that)--> baiting your f-tilt--> punish before you have a chance to do it again".
D-tilt, F-tilt, and jab are your best bets while on the ground in terms of standard “physical” moves; both as an “anti-approach”, and as a saving grace for stopping ground attacks that (will inevitably) get you airborne and lead to aerial combat.
Tornado is quite possibly the most annoying thing to deal with. It isn’t a particularly effective damage dealer with proper DI (left/right on c- and control sticks, which CAN lead to a free aerial), but it is a great way to pressure your shield, interrupt combos, and more importantly get you in the air and on the defensive. To deal with it, shield the tornado and tilt the shield accordingly. Many MKs use the “lagless tornado” in that they do not “complete” the tornado and end in a free-fall animation. If the MK is close by, you can attempt a counter-attack via tilts/jabs/dash attack (IF he is close enough). If he lands farther away, you should be able to get in a free gyro or laser. During the actual tornado, you CAN knock him out of it. A laser, a gyro at the base (the more charged, the better to compensate for lack of aim), a well spaced N-air (I think, ive managed to do it, it might just be at start-up) or f-smash. Anything directly above the tornado will knock him out of it (N-air, B-air, D-air), but ROB’s D-air comes out just TOO slow to be of any use.
Be wary of getting gimped. Getting hit with the backside of shuttle-loop upon start-up can gimp you reliably at roughly 60%. ROB’s vulnerability during recovery (being unable to airdodge unless you cancel it with an aerial) can/will be taken advantage of through repeated D-airs that can lead to an early gimp. Your best bet is to recover high, bait an action from MK, and take advantage of it for a “back off” aerial, or a window to get to the ground safely. Alternatively, (and what I personally find a bit more success in) is free-falling dangerously low, basically playing “chicken” with the MK. Despite his numerous jumps and Shuttleloop/Tornado/Drillrush recovery options; ROB is far more adept at pure recovery from the low blast-zones. If you have saved your jump, drop down low and jump--> U-air, and up+b out of it. By the time the MK recovers, and attempts to mount another edge-guarding attempt, you should have passed the window where you can’t use another aerial in your up+B, which will provide you with another U-air to help your recovery.
N-air and B-air (I think) can beat out the shuttle-loop, but only during a very small window. B-air can beat out the glide attack if spaced properly, as can F-smash (but that’s really risky, imo). At any time during the glide/shuttleloop glide you get an opportunity for a U-air (or U-smash if you feel ballsy) take it. Take any U-air opportunities that you can get if you can catch him between D-airs, or in a disadvantageous position.
N- and B-air should probably be your best kill moves, as well as a situational/surprise U-smash. Save them if possible. In a really tight situation a fresh B- throw CAN kill, and a B- or F-throw to laser can work as well. If things are REALLY rough, a U-throw can kill around 150-160%. MK’s kill moves will be a fresh D-smash (usually on respawn if your at a high enough percent), an F-smash as you are getting on the ledge, shuttleloop gimps & (sometimes) outright KOs, a U-throw on stages with a high platform, and the U-air chain to tornado for the ceiling KO.
(2.2) Defragmentation Data:
Sudai breaks the percent ranges down into groups of 0-35% (group A or “A” for our purposes), 35-70% (“B”), 70-110% (“C”), 110-135% (“D”) 135-150% (“E”). The chart is largely unfilled due to (I believe) the extreme disadvantageous matchup, inasmuch as there isn’t much you can RELIABLY do. However, in an attempt to provide SOME data:
A: Camp/Poke/Short Combos
B: Camp/Poke
C: Camp/Poke
D: Camp/Poke/Kill
E: Kill
(2.3) Stages:
FD & SV are your best bet in terms of neutrals. If you know the MK’s playstyle (reliance/prevalence on Shuttleloops, tornado amount, effective use of U- and D-air) you may be able to get away with BF. In terms of counterpicking, focus mostly on whatever stage you feel you do best at and/or your opponent doesn’t do as well at.
Unfortunately, the ROB mains staple CP, Frigate, is of little to no use. The non-grabable edge sets up lots of gimp opportunities for MK if you recover low, while not affecting him as much as it does other chars since he can recover onto/across the stage. Low-ish ceiling + short-ish walls=
. Count RC & Japes out as well; MK does exceptionally good at RC while you are hurting yourself more than helping at Japes as MKs multiple jumps and speed can navigate him through lasers and gyros, while the higher ceiling makes him harder to kill and the shorter walls make you easier to kill (although you can retreat to the safety of water).
Neutrals: SV, FD, possibly BF
Counterpicks: Wherever you excel, wherever they do not.
Ban/Avoid: Delphino Plaza, Rainbow Cruise, or ?Halberd?
(2.4) Specific Moves Guide:
Essentially, I want to list the most commonly used moves for damage-racking & KOs here, and how to properly DI out of them. I will admit, I am HORRIBLE at escaping multi-hit moves (though quite good at DI’ing AFTER the moves in order to stay alive), and so this is certainly not my strong-point, so any help here will be appreciated, and added accordingly. Ideally, it would be listed in the following:
Move:
(If used on the rise, DI this way)
(If used falling, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting forward {toward you}, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting backwards {away from you}, DI this way)
Tornado
F-air
B-air
Shuttleloop
Drill Rush
U-air Chain
(2.5) Zoning Guide:
Once the zoning discussion gets started, information and screenshots will be placed here.
(2.6) Frame Data:
Thanks to GWJumpman for assembling the frame information for ROB. I have perused each of the character boards to obtain frame data for comparison against ROB's moveset. I am not entirely, 100% sure these are super accurate, but they are a lot better than what I had before I suspended this section. As a note, the (x) in the ROB column is the # of frames if the attack whiffs/misses.
I have tried my best to standardize the lists, as some boards don't list some things, and DO list others. Additionall, any group of cells that are "blacked out" means that I couldn't readily find frame information for those specific moves.
(2.7) Conclusions:
It is by far, ROBs worst matchup. ROB has very little in the way of dealing with MK. However, it isn’t necessarily unwinnable. Patience, Knowledge, and Calculation are the best weapons in your arsenal.
(3.0) Game And Watch
credit to *pnutink @ deviantart for the image
This is yet another one of ROBs worst matchups. While it was originally thought to be almost unwinnable, it has since evened out to a “not-so-hopeless” situation, though still decidedly in Game and Watch’s favor.
(3.1) Overall Strategy:
GaW’s number one approach is the turtle. It lasts a LONG time, great range, eats a shield like nobodies business, and can pop you up for another turtle, an f-air, or an n-air out of a second jump. However, it is not without its flaws. A poorly spaced turtle can be shielded (make sure to tilt the shield accordingly) which leads into a shieldgrab. Also, if you DI up and through (generally) through the turtle, you can land a free f- or b-air (depending on whether or not you get turned around). It’s a good trade-off.
Your best bet, overall, is to remain grounded (for the most part), and use your f-tilt. You can sometimes get away with multiple forward tilts via “f-tilt --> step forward--> f-tilt--> step forward”, although this should by no means be your “bread and butter”. Utilizing you f-tilt in a retreating fashion (stepping back, as opposed to stepping forward) is a good way to shut down GaW’s turtle approach given the correct proximity of one character to the other.
Be wary of his tilts, as the f-tilt can shut down a few of your “hasty and wreckless” approaches, and d-tilt can shut down quite a few more, especially poorly spaced shorthopped aerials, and also makes for a superb edgeguard (more on that later).
In addition to utilizing your own tilts, use your gyro and laser often, but use them wisely. A simple jab and even a b-air from GaW can negate an uncharged gyro. He can also grab the gyro and utilize it via glide-tossing to get into your face and follow up with a jab which sets you up for a plethora of his moves. Of course we all know that he can bucket your laser, so make sure to be as unpredictable and calculating with it as possible. With the advent of bucket cancelling, it makes a B-throw/F-throw --> fully charged laser KO much, MUCH tougher. Look for the aerial used to reset his hitstun animation, and laser then, timing it so that it hits before he can bucket (easier said than done.)
While on the ground, be wary of GaW’s grab game. His tech-chasing ability is not to be taken lightly. Add to that the fact ROB has a sub-par techroll, as well as a large frame, and you can really eat a lot of damage and possibly lose a stock EXTREMELY early via tech-chased smashes. Make sure to vary your techroll directions as best you can to avoid this.
On the subject of grabs, make sure to do it often in this matchup. It is one of the few guaranteed ways of building damage in this matchup. It helps to “slow” down the match, gives you a chance to collect yourself, and refresh your own moves through grab-pummels. U-throw is capable of killing at around 160%, and a fresh B-throw can do the job as well.
The tried and true “spotdodge-->d-smash” isn’t nearly as effective in this matchup. Its one of the times that the spotdodge can REALLY screw ROB over. Almost all (if not all) of GaW’s smash’s hitboxes are out long enough to outlast the spot-dodge.
You should avoid being above GaW- either directly above or diagonally above. ROB’s huge blindspot gets punished hard with the use of GaW’s N-air, which can be followed up in numerous ways with U- and N-airs, and Up+B in various combination. But he has even more options. Should he forego an initial N-air, he can utilize Up+B & U-air to keep his game “fresh” and to keep you off-balance (both mentally in terms of the player, and physically in terms of the character). U-tilt is a great juggler at low percents, and leads into all sorts of nasty mess. U-air is a fabulous juggler, and also refreshes GaW’s moves. If he insists on continually juggling you, do not try to “outwit” him by DI’ing back and forth, you are only hurting your own cause. Instead, try to throw him off by less conventional means (wavebouncing gyro cancels, wavebouncing up+bs, and b-airs).Get to the edge as quick as possible to at least reset yourself to a (slightly) less unfavorable position.
In terms of recovery, this is one of the few matchups where ROB finds a great amount of difficulty in approaching. GaW has a HUGE arsenal to shut down your recovery, ending with an either outright KO, or pestering you enough to make you run out of fuel. This facet of the game drastically throws the matchup in GaW’s favor, imo. If you are recovering horizontally, or from a diagonal below, GaW can use toss bacon/sausage/whatever it is at you. They move through the air slowly, take seemingly erratic paths. Continually using robo-burner to recover in the midst of a bacon storm will empty your fuel supply in a few short moments. If you manage to get past the bacon, a d-tilt can shut you down.
However, coming from below is also hazardous. A RAR’d key can hit us, as well as an Airwalk (walking off the stage, keying, and diing back to the stage). Dtilt generally beats U-airs from below, and even spaced f-airs. If you happened to get caught under the edge, watch out for a “run off the edge--> b-air” trap, “RAR a f-air into your grill for the stage spike” or even a U-aired stage spike against the underside of the lip.
Also, there is the option of him using an F-air. Drop down below him (hope you saved your second jump) and U-air him after it comes out. If the first hits, and it didn’t kill you and you’re still close, watch out for a second one, IE- DON’T START YOUR UP+B IMMEDIATELY, as he can double jump--> F-air. He can also do the same with B-air-->dj-->b-air-->Up+B for a gimp as well. DI the turtle if that’s the case, and you should yet again get a free F- or B-air (preferably B-air, as you can most likely KO him at that point on the map)
Once you get to the ledge; DO NOT relax. If you linger too long, a dash-attack will spike you. Ledge-hopping leaves you prone to a SHF-air if you get-up attack. A roll leaves you open to a turn-around-grab that can either mean a D-throw to techchase, or simply being thrown off-stage again. Jumping from the edge is thwarted by an N-air, or even an Up+B.
Recovering high has its own dangers as well. It leaves you susceptible to U-air juggles (which refreshes GaW’s moves), up+b’s, and also puts you in a race to a landing position against a faster character with superior juggling abilities
However, recovering against GaW is NOT impossible, its just very hard. Unlike most other characters, GaW has the tools to shut down almost all of ROB’s recovery options. This means, you HAVE to mix them up. You’re given a short amount of time to analyze dozens of possible scenarios, and choose the best one based on effectiveness or unpredictability. Keep in mind that you still have lasers (use them wisely, to prevent a bucket), gyros, going under the stage, and up+b stalling trixies (be careful to leave yourself enough fuel to recover!)
But all is not lost, ROB mains. ROB also gives GaW more of a hassle in terms of his recovery than most other characters, providing you read it right/make him recover how YOU want. As I mentioned before, lasers can help if you time them properly (either before or after the bucket). One effective trick when used sparingly, is to purposely MISS a laser, in an attempt to solicit a bucket in order to throw the opponent off, allowing you to possibly capitalize (depending on distance and positioning) . Because ROB can travel so far with his jumps and a repeatedly cancelled up+b, you can dip low into GaW’s recovery trajectory. Mix up the use/timing via: running off the edge and saving both jumps, using only one jump, stalling with up+b (thereby saving your second {or even first} jump). Heck, even throwing a gyro out randomly can cause problems. Even if it doesn’t hit him, its placed an object in his recovery path that he is forced to navigate around. In the event that he has somehow overshot the edge during his up+B, GRAB HIM, but DO NOT hit him. Just like with Snake, if you grab him out of his up+B, he doesn't get it back.
If he attempts to recover high, there isn’t a WHOLE lot you can do. Attempt to bait a key via getting under him and wavebouncing an almost fully-charged gyro (it will finish charging as he descends), or by using a B-air. The disjointedness of the hitbox, when timed properly, will hit him and space you away from the key. If the key is done relatively high, you can sneak out an N-air. If he n-airs, wait for the end of it and U-air him, or even a U-smash if you’re grounded. Be careful about the “back and forth” motion of his parachute, which is a bit of a mindgame in and of itself, and be more wary of the fact that the box/credit card/razor/rectangular object is fast enough and long enough to hit even during the “floating away” portion.
(3.2) Defragmentation Data:
Sudai breaks the percent ranges down into groups of 0-35% (group A or “A” for our purposes), 35-70% (“B”), 70-110% (“C”), 110-135% (“D”) 135-150% (“E”).
A: Combo
B: Poke
C: Poke
D: Poke/Kill if possible(Bucket Cancelling can at times negate the kill option)
E: Kill
E+: Kill
(3.3) Stages:
BF is by far GaW’s best neutral in this matchup, no further explanation needed.
I personally dislike Yoshi’s, as it makes the d-tilt even more dangerous, and negates going under the stage. Although the platform can mess with GaW’s aerial game, getting caught on it can be bothersome, and it hinders your aerial game much more than his. Also, the angled stage makes it harder to utilize a gyro that is on the ground.
FD, SV, and Lylat are probably your better bets due to the lack of stationary platforms, and the lip of the stage being able to possibly catch GaW’s recovery. Lylat due to the tilting stage, and limiting of GaW’s platform game.
Game and Watch seems to do relatively well at most of the stages ROB normally counterpicks, and vice versa. The small boundaries on Frigate coupled with GaW’s ability to recover high/across the stage rules it out, though if the GaW player isn’t comfortable on the stage, then by all means use it. Japes is a decent pick, IMO. You can freely spam gyro from the platforms on each side, and use laser widely. Shielding an F-air will put you on the ledge, but here it isn’t such a dangerous place to be, what with the ability to go under the platforms to a new edge, or to use the water to speedily move you out of harm’s way.
Neutrals: FD & ?SV?, Lylat
Counterpick: Japes, Luigi’s if its legal, Comfort stage
Ban/Avoid: BF, and GaW’s Comfort stage
(3.4) Specific Moves Guide:
Essentially, I want to list the most commonly used moves for damage-racking & KOs here, and how to properly DI out of them. I will admit, I am HORRIBLE at escaping multi-hit moves (though quite good at DI’ing AFTER the moves in order to stay alive), and so this is certainly not my strong-point, so any help here will be appreciated, and added accordingly. Ideally, it would be listed in the following:
Move:
(If used on the rise, DI this way)
(If used falling, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting forward {toward you}, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting backwards {away from you}, DI this way)
B-air:
N-air:
Electric Hammer (?5?):
Continued jab (holding A):
(3.5) Zoning Guide:
Once the zoning discussion gets started, information and screenshots will be placed here.
(3.6) Frame Data:
Thanks to GWJumpman for assembling the frame information for ROB. I have perused each of the character boards to obtain frame data for comparison against ROB's moveset. I am not entirely, 100% sure these are super accurate, but they are a lot better than what I had before I suspended this section. As a note, the (x) in the ROB column is the # of frames if the attack whiffs/misses.
I have tried my best to standardize the lists, as some boards don't list some things, and DO list others. Additionall, any group of cells that are "blacked out" means that I couldn't readily find frame information for those specific moves.
(3.7) Conclusion:
This is another one of ROB's VERY hard matchups. Some put it as bad or worse as MK, others put it almost even. After looking over the GaW boards, and our own boards and comparing the matchup ratios, it appears that most agree that it is within a heavily disadvantaged range for ROB. The ROB player must play intelligently, react exceptionally well to difficult situations, be patient, and most of all- YOU MUST RECOVER!
King DeDeDe
credit to *pnutink @ deviant art for the image
This is yet again, a tough matchup for ROB. Not tough in regards to DDD totally shutting ROB down like Game & Watch or Metaknight, but rather it is a matchup that is tough due to the way that it has to be played. Patience, playing incredibly smart while being able to mix things up, and near perfect spacing is the best bet.
4.1 Overall Strategy:
This is one matchup where ROB has no other choice BUT to camp. A quick breakdown of why: DDD’s chaingrab is a free damage dealer and can erase in 10 seconds the damage advantage you’ve been building for the last minute or so. ROB has a hard time killing, DDD can survive to obscene percentages when being hit with stale moves (and both your N- and B-airs will probably be stale in this matchup) & use of proper DI, and has a much easier time killing ROB through use of U-tilt (which will almost always be fresh by the time you’re around the % for it to kill), a random Gordo, a surprise dash attack, a surprise F-smash, or even a D-tilt. Add all this together, and you should be able to see just how cautious and campy you have to play in order to eek out a victory. To more adequately surmise it:
ROB has a superior projectile game, which enables him to outcamp DDD. However, the effectiveness of his Waddles can not be taken lightly or overlooked as they clash with a gyro. Playing on longer stages can help with this, but as DDD slowly approaches (which, you should be forcing him to), he will inevitably reach the point where his Waddles can/will clash with the gyro and eventually to the point where they can hit you.
If you do not mix up your projectile camping game, the match will simmer down into a literal projectile war which can result in either a “projectile clashing draw” (bad for you if he has a percentage lead) or a “percentage draw” (bad for you if you simply exchange hits, as your die much faster than DDD in this matchup), or in a DDD advancing through the air using multiple jumps to navigate over the barrage and land nearer to you (in which case, wait until he is almost out of jumps and attack him from below UNEXPECTEDLY, or just run underneath to the opposite side).
There are several things you can do to mix the projectile camping game up. First off, increase (or decrease) the charge time of your gyro. While you are possibly sacrificing the shield that is distance as DDD is able to approach in this scenario, you are compensating by providing yourself with a stronger projectile and some degree of unrest to the DDD player (see: “Is he going to charge it all the way? Or fire it? Is he going to fire it now? Or, when I get in range for a grab?). Don’t forget that you can grab out of a gyro charge. This should definitely NOT be one of your mainstays in terms of strategy, but cancelling a charge halfway through if he is close enough may get you a free grab->throw->enable you to get to the other side of the stage.
Secondly, you can alter the angle of your laser. Bouncing it off of the floor and up into DDD, or shooting it straight, or shooting it at an upward angle if he attempts go airborne. You can utilize short hops, jumps, and sometimes double jumps when firing the laser/gyro, but do so at the appropriate times as doing so gives up the neutral position of being grounded.
Thirdly, feigning approaches to bait a shieldgrab can lead to openings for projectile usage: Running up (out of grab range) and firing a gyro to cancel the run momentum (fully charged preferably, as it takes less time than pulling an uncharged out and cancelling the charge by firing), RAR as if you were going to RAR a B-air, but instead use a turn-around laser or gyro; RAR a B-air and turn around gyro on landing, Wavebounce lasers and gyros. Also, some physical feints of approaches can work here as well. SH a retreating F-air-->up+B backwards-->cancel with an F-air (or whatever aerial)-->dj-->whatever aerial fits the situation/helps your cause.
Fourth, use glide-tossing. While most people think of it as a great approach, it is also an outstanding defensive maneuver. Once you become comfortable with the various lengths (long covers half of FD while the shorter one covers the distance of a normal roll), you can use it in many, MANY different ways. Use it going backwards to retreat with a laser, backwards to retreat with an up+b to quickly get to the opposite ledge, forwards & through to get to an edge, or to a pivot grab, forwards into a rar’d b-air, forwards into the aforementioned “RAR’d turnaround laser”, retreating with a gyro toss down to where he will land (if he is air-stalling) and punish in its hitstun before moving out of range-there are TONS of possibilities. Even approaches with it, if spaced properly and used in a defensive manner (defensive approach: moving toward your opponent not with the aim of attacking, but to change positions while covering yourself with an attack) can help out tremendously.
Utilize ledge-camping as it negates his chaingrabbing and Waddle approaches. Similar to Falco, there isn’t much that DDD can do in the way of assaulting your ledge game. His only good options are D-airs over the ledge, stealing the ledge whenever you ledge-drop--> jump in order to regain invincibility frames, running off and attempting a B-air stage spike or swallowcide, or using a surprise F-smash if you aren’t adept at spacing your regrab so that you remain largely under the ledge.
I apologize for spending such a long time elaborating on the camping facet of the matchup, but that is the LARGEST, and (currently) most effective, facet of the matchup- and I want to make it clear that camping isn’t just “throwing everything mindlessly at him” but that it can be mixed up, and in this matchup, it HAS to be.
In the eventual inevitability that DDD does get close, there are things you have to watch out for IN ADDITION TO the chaingrab. While spot-dodging to D-smash can (and will) work against aggressive (and often times “newer” DDD players who know ONLY how to chaingrab), it can guarantee a DDD grab if it is overused, or predictable. Vary your spot-dodge timing, or the d-smash timing after the spot-dodge, or do it out of shield.
Watch out for his F-tilt. Although it is slower, I believe it outranges yours (someone let me know if I’m incorrect). If you get hit with one, you won’t have time to “counter f-tilt” due to the hitstun & speed of your own tilt (not to mention that at close range, if can kind of raise you off the ground a little, which means you still have to land before doing anything). Shielding a second one can result in a shieldgrab for you, but if he sees it coming he can easily dodge and grab you afterward.
Qwertyman made a good point during the DeDeDe matchup discussion. In his post, he outlined that there are “stages” to the match. I will paraphrase them:
Stage One; Distance: The long range fight wherein DDD is trying to approach through ROB’s projectile spamming/camping/ledge-camping. Utilize the tactics listed previously (and anything else you can think of) to prolong this stage as long as possible.
Stage Two; Close Quarters: DDD has successfully gotten into your bad zone, and is ultimately looking for a grab, or a possible U-tilt KO (at the right percent). This revolves around spot-dodging, ROB d-smashing, shielding, and spacing within a confined area. The stage does not last long, for as soon as ROB is grabbed & chained (or KO’d)
Stage Three; The Edge-Game: If DDD successfully completes his chain, you will wind up on the ledge, or offstage. The former isn’t that bad, providing you have a percentage lead. The latter however, is rough stuff. If the chain is ended with an F-throw, DI so that you wind up at a high angle. From there proceed to recover high. If you are sent below the stage, its often times a better bet to bait him to chase you while positioning yourself in an interior position, and then go under the stage and then get back on from the other side. Baiting him to come down after you, and moving to the interior assures that you have AMPLE time to reset yourself into a favorable position. If he doesn’t react to your bait, do it anyway. At the very least, you’ll be on the opposite edge (which is good, it automatically creates your ledgecamping game if you can force the match to slow down) with about a half tank of fuel left providing you conserved it through cancelling & use of B-airs.
Attempting to recover horizontally, or at a diagonal from either “high corner--> ledge” or “low corner--> ledge” you are setting yourself up for some vicious edge-guarding. DDD’s B-air is simply TOO good in this department. It generally lasts longer than your airdodge (depending on when the b-air and airdodge are executed, respectively- etc etc), and comes out quicker than your F-air. They can be chained into a WoP if you aren’t careful, and will chip away at your fuel supply quite quickly. DDD is one of the few characters that can easily make you run out of fuel consistently.
But the B-air isn’t the only thing you have to worry about. There is always the F-air. B-air WoPs can often end in an F-air for the finish, and F-airs can be mixed in sporadically to throw off your timing, having been conditioned to react to B-airs.
And there is of course the inhale. This can obviously lead to swallowcides, so be especially cautious whenever you are at a low % and he is at a high% on the same stock, or if he has the stock advantage, or anytime the two of you are on your last stocks at the same time. Outside of the suicide, the swallow is a hassle in and of itself. If you’re waiting on an airdodge from him during one of the few chances you have to combo him, it may never come, and he can use the inhale instead if you’re within range- ending your combo, dealing damage, and putting you in an unfavorable position. At the very least, it resets the two players into a neutral position. It is also an effective edgeguard, as being caught unaware and being sucked up in it will result in you being put back off the stage, usually in a diagonal up position- ripe for B-airs.
And of course, there’s always Waddle spam if he is cautious/at a high percent/if you have proven to be the superior player in the air (which, really shouldn’t happen).
From ROB’s perspective, edgeguard with lasers and gyros in an attempt to ROB him (bad pun) of his multiple jumps, by forcing him to waist them. F-airs can be used against a forward (toward you) facing DDD as can B-airs. Just make sure he doesn’t turn around to use a b-air. Force him to use his up+B recklessly, and U-smash him out of it during the descent if you are going for the KO. You can also utilize a U-air, and if the characters are in the right position you can U-air him as he ascends, and again as he descends.
If he cancels his up+b and is in a free fall, do not be hasty in your decision making. Quickly (but accurately) assess the situation, follow, and predict his free-fall path to capitalize on his prone state.
Stage Four; Endgame: At this point, players will go for the KO. DDD will inevitably attempt to land a U-tilt, or spam waddles in an attempt to pull a Gordo, which can kill as early as 80-90%. But be wary of his other “surprise” KOs; D-tilt, Swallowcides, stage spikes, f-smashes.
ROB should be using spaced N-airs if possible, although B-air is definitely a better choice as it auto-spaces, auto-cancels, and can be a set-up to an F-smash if the B-air is shielded/misses. At high percents, your F-tilt can kill, as can U-throw.
In terms of the ebb and flow of the match as it relates to these stages; ROB wants to keep the match in Stage 1 for as long as possible, avoid Stage 2 altogether (or at least minimize the total time spent in it), be on the giving end of Stage 3. Stage 4 is highly dependent on the percentage comparisons between characters; but it goes without saying that you want to be on the “offensive end” of it, but still remaining PATIENT so as to avoid a chaingrab and the possibility of things being evened out once more.
4.2 Defragmentation Data:
Sudai breaks the percent ranges down into groups of 0-35% (group A or “A” for our purposes), 35-70% (“B”), 70-110% (“C”), 110-135% (“D”) 135-150% (“E”).
A: Camp/Combo
B: Camp
C: Camp
D: Camp/Kill
E: Kill
(4.3) Stages:
There are pros and cons to choosing FD. While it is longer which enables better camping, you also will eat 2-3 more chaingrabs than on other stages. The extra grabs you save yourself from isn't worth not being able to camp efficiently, and giving up stage control, and being prone for a U-tilt at almost any given time due to the platforms.
Japes is a great bet. With Norfair you are trading off a vastle decreased number of CGs for aerial fighting- so you can expect to eat a lot of B-airs. Brinstar seems alright. With Frigate, the tradeoff between less cg's & the ability to punish DDD recovery & the lowish ceiling.
Neutrals: FD, SV, Yoshi’s Island.
Counterpick: Japes, Norfair, Brinstar, Frigate
Ban: Battlefield, Delphino, Castle Siege (unless you are **** sure you can stay away from him during second transformation)
(4.4) Zoning Guide:
Once the zoning discussion gets started, information and screenshots will be placed here.
(4.5) Specific Moves Guide::
Essentially, I want to list the most commonly used moves for damage-racking & KOs here, and how to properly DI out of them. I will admit, I am HORRIBLE at escaping multi-hit moves (though quite good at DI’ing AFTER the moves in order to stay alive), and so this is certainly not my strong-point, so any help here will be appreciated, and added accordingly. Ideally, it would be listed in the following:
Move:
(If used on the rise, DI this way)
(If used falling, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting forward {toward you}, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting backwards {away from you}, DI this way)
U-air:
D-air:
F-throw:
B-throw:
CG (things to possibly make the cg more difficult; jabbing, jumping, ?DI?)
(4.6) Frame Data:
No Frame Data Available for King DeDeDe
(4.7) Conclusion:
The matchup is quite tough. Not because it is especially difficult, or one character is vastly superior to the other, but because the matchup is mentally taxing. Camping is key, as it helps you avoid grabs. Make sure to vary your projectile usage, your “running away” patterns, and your counter-attacks in order to keep your opponent on their toes and out of a “groove” when it comes to landing grabs- but make sure to take note that even if you don’t get grabbed, DDD still has options left to make the match quite harder than most matchups of comparable ratios.
(5.0) Diddy Kong
credit to *pnutink @ deviant art for the image
This is a frustrating, often times long matchup due to the fact that Diddy has a hard time killing ROB, and ROB will be camping as much as possible to avoid those annoying (annoying is an understatement) bananas.
(5.1) Overall Strategy:
Without bananas, Diddy is a vastly different and less threatening (though that’s not to say he is NOTHING without the bananas) opponent. Therefore, attempting to neutralize his banana game should be your number one priority in this matchup. The best way to do this, is to stay out of range of his bananas through camping. If Diddy does happen to land a banana combo on you, be prepared to take a fair amount of damage, regardless of percent. To help neutralize the (inevitable) damage, forcing Diddy to approach via your projectile/camping game is paramount. However, Diddy is one of the few characters whose playstyles naturally make them proficient with items (see: ZSS, Peach), so be careful to not let Diddy get hold of your gyro.
In the event you obtain one of Diddy’s bananas, attempting to use them against him is not ALWAYS the best option. Diddy is just designed to use bananas WAY more proficiently than ROB. It doesn’t make much sense to try to use a weapon you may know very little about against a character whose game revolves solely on using them offensively (as opposed to just camping, or short combos like ROBs do with the gyro). Of course you can say “But, ROB’s glide-toss is so long, and you can do lots of stuff out of it!” While this is true, a longer glide-toss is not the best option in this matchup. Often times, ROBs glide toss (even the shorter version) will leave him out of range to efficiently capitalize on the banana induced trip which will enable the Diddy player to return to their banana game before you can pressure them in an attempt to impede it. If you are not comfortable with banana usage or shortening ROBs glide toss to provide more “combo” options off of the trip, don’t even bother with attempting to utilize them, just throw them behind you (to “defend” the bananas by placing yourself between them, which keeps them active and stops Diddy from pulling more out), or throw them off the stage entirely. In this case, the Diddy player may become more focused on getting another banana out than actually fighting. I CAN NOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH!
However, there are times when using the bananas against him is perfectly alright, and encouraged. If you are comfortable with using them or if there is only one banana in the field of play (and you have it.) You can also use them as an edgeguarding tool. Z-dropping or throwing them down to knock him out of his rocketboost and proceed to utilize whatever the situation calls for.
Also, by simply dropping the banana down (while on the ground) and using d-tilt, the tilt pushes the banana toward Diddy which will either trip him first (enabling the d-tilt to hit) or he will get hit by the d-tilt (enabling the banana to trip him, resulting in a grab or smash)- providing the diddy doesn’t shield. Even if he does, and drops the shield to pick a banana up, you can probably hit him with a d-tilt before he can do anything with it.
Another way to neutralize the banana game is to be aggressive, but not reckless. By putting constant pressure on Diddy when he has no bananas prevents him from pulling them out. They come out relatively slowly, must either be caught during an aerial, airdodge, or wait until they hit the ground. During this time, you can utilize a wide array of tactics that you normally would when on the offensive. If Diddy attempts to pull bananas in this situation in a “panic situation” you can punish him to the nth degree. Of course, they can hit you during their descent, which can spell a bit of trouble, but it is generally a safe risk to take. Utilize your f-tilts, f-smashes, jabs, and grabs. While spotdodge--> works well against Diddy, over-using it can give Diddy a free grab to force you away which enables him to pull a banana. As soon as Diddy gets control over a banana, back off once more to get out of the “mid-range” area (where diddy’s banana game really shines).
Additionally, you can stay in the air. You can’t trip while in the air! However, if this is the case, be sure to watch out for bananas being thrown as a “traditional” projectile (meaning they are used to hurt or stun you as opposed to tripping you), the peanut gun (as the peanuts have a nice arc for defending airspace in front/slightly above Diddy), jump-->over-B, or an aerial counterattack. Although ROB outclasses Diddy while both players are airborne, a surprise aerial counter-attack can prove to be effective against you. Also, watch out for U-tilts & U-airs if you find yourself above him.
However, as I mentioned, you have all the tools to outshine him once the two of you are airborne. N- and B- airs work well (B-air especially against Diddy’s >B due to the hitbox), as do F-airs. Watch out for B-air chains, and F-airs as well (as Diddys tend to rely on the F-air a lot once they are airborne) . Be careful of a fresh F-air (especially on Diddy respawn with you at a high % if he gets you in the air)
In the event that you fail to neutralize his banana game (even moderately), there is a BOAT-LOAD of things that can happen to you. There really are too many to think of/list, but there will be lots of: dash attacks, U-smashes, U-tilts, grabs, F-smashes, and D-smashes- all in varying quantities and order. Because of this, a Diddy with a banana (and two of course makes it worse) can shield pressure you to no end, and wreak havoc on your mental state, making you feel as if you have no options, which isn’t too far from the truth. The dash-attack whittles away at your shield, is one of the hardest to shieldgrab, leads to combos amazingly well, and of course picks the banana he just threw at you back up. F-smashes can get you into the air where he can utilize banana throws upward to combo you, U-smashes and U-tilts are great combo starters, and D-smash makes rolling away much harder.
Once you have neutralized the banana game, Diddy becomes outclassed- but that doesn’t mean you will absolutely wreck him to no end. Higher skilled Diddy’s will find ways to get you off of them so they can retrieve/pull a banana. His >B can be quite bothersome, and can enable him to get you away from him so that he can once more pull a banana. Although you outrange him, poor spacing can lead to getting d-tilted-->grabbed. Depending on the stage of the match (stocks & percentages of each character) Diddy’s smashes are already probably decayed past the point of killing you, and so don’t be surprised to see lots of them in the stead of more conventional ground attacks.
In terms of edgeguarding Diddy, you have a wide array of options. Diddy will most likely be recovering horizontally which makes using laser easier and gyro (uncharged) a bit harder due to the fact that it arcs instead of travels horizontally (though a fully charged one works WONDERS here). When recovering horizontally, Diddy’s options are limited. He resets himself--> over-b’s (to save his jump)--> jump (depending on how far away he is), or resets-->jump--> over-b. Often times, a pair of lasers can take away these options (by the time you shoot the first, it hits, he begins his second form of recovery {depending on what he did first}, you should be able to fire another), with a gyro helping to aid your cause as he gets lower. And you can always go offstage for an F-air, or B-air (hitting with either the head, or the booster, whatever you feel is best based on the situation).
Force him to recover low, as his up+B is easy to combat. You can run off stage and F-air (if he is far enough out diagonally), RAR yourself for an F-air as you run off-stage, go for a B-air stage-spike, run/jump off and turn-around gyro or laser, z-drop a gyro (or banana if you have one) onto him. Literally, there is a PLETHORA of options in combating his up+b, its just a matter of not being baited into using things to early, (as he will prolong the up+b as long as possible to both gain length, stall to bait your action, and then use the window to recover {and it may hit you while he does it!}) and timing them properly. As a side-note; if you stage-spike diddy while he is charging his rocket-boosters, he will hit the wall but glide up it with the knockback he receives.
As always most of your “outright” kill moves will be N-air, B-air, F-smash, U-smash, fresh b-throws (either straight out, or with a charged laser), and U-throws at really high percents. At higher percents, make sure you avoid Diddy’s F- and D-smashes, usually started by bananas, U-airs at high percents, and even U-tilts when on the top platforms of a stage like battlefield. Diddy has few options when edgeguarding you, and a small number of outright kill moves (as they are usually decayed and wont work until very high percents). As always, watch out for a face-hump suicide, or even a face-hump stage spike. If the Diddy is feeling ballsy, he may drop off the ledge, >B toward you with a kung-fu kick for the KO and use his dj and up+b to return to the stage. He can also attempt a spike, either “straight up” as you attempt to recover, or after a dash attack near the edge-->dj. As well all know, ROB laughs in the face of spikes.
However, don’t be too cocky. Getting spiked initially from just above stage level is livable, but there is only so many that even ROB can take. Spike-->ledgegrab-->ledgedrop-->up+b spike--> repeat can be quite bothersome, and deplete your fuel supplpy if you don’t properly utilize your U-air in order to stop it. Even then, it may be really hard, as players who are more comfortable with Diddy’s recovery will drop down low with their up+B by fast-falling off the ledge and catching you with the spike in the small window that you can’t do an aerial after starting your up+b. Also watch out for rocket-booster “suicides”, as diddy can launch himself into the stage as opposed to grabbing the ledge (usually when forced to use their recovery in a bad position that they can’t reach the edge with), causing the barrels to explode, and the hitbox going through the stage. Also, even after you eliminate a recovering Diddy, watch out for the stray barrels as they have a half-arsed homing property similar (though slightly less effective) than Samus’.
(5.2) Defragmentation Data:
Sudai breaks the percent ranges down into groups of 0-35% (group A or “A” for our purposes), 35-70% (“B”), 70-110% (“C”), 110-135% (“D”) 135-150% (“E”):
A: Combo/Camp
B: Camp
C: Camp/Poke/Gimp
D: Kill
E: Kill
(5.3) Stages:
There was a fair amount of debate on stage preference between FD and BF. Both parts have their advantages/disadvantages for both ROB and Diddy. Final Destination is flat and longer- which means bananas become much more effective and dangerous here. On the flipside, you can stay out of banana range here and camp a lot better. For Battlefield- the platforms provide relief from the banana game and is long enough to do some camping, yet short enough to diminish the strings of successive banana locks/hits/whatever. However, Diddy is able to attack your vunerable spots from below, and the shorter stage makes the bananas control a large area. Also, laying a banana on a platform and near the edge of the stage can limit what ROB can do in terms of landing back on the stage. The choice between the two depends on the comfort level of you and your opponent.
Smashville seems to be a good bet, as its platform provides a degree of relief, and the main stage is a little on the short side. Lylat seems alright as well, as the tilting stage can disrupt some banana combos, the platforms enable you room to breathe, and are easier on ROB than BF.
In terms of counterpicking, you should do alright at Frigate due to the ledgeless side, arching floor, platform to camp under, etc. Rainbow cruise is good, as you can constantly run to stay away from the bananas. Norfair for the same reason (if you win the first stock), Japes for utter campage.
Neutrals: FD or BF (personal preference, though there are better stages), Lylat, SV
Counterpicks: Frigate, Norfair if you are confident you can “win” the first stock and are more comfortable there(see AlphaZealot’s thread here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230510), Rainbow Cruise, Japes
Ban: FD or BF (personal preferences)
(5.4) Specific Moves Guide:
Essentially, I want to list the most commonly used moves for damage-racking & KOs here, and how to properly DI out of them. I will admit, I am HORRIBLE at escaping multi-hit moves (though quite good at DI’ing AFTER the moves in order to stay alive), and so this is certainly not my strong-point, so any help here will be appreciated, and added accordingly. Ideally, it would be listed in the following:
Move:
(If used on the rise, DI this way)
(If used falling, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting forward {toward you}, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting backwards {away from you}, DI this way)
F-smash
Jab Attack
D-tilt
(2.5) Zoning Guide:
Once the zoning discussion gets started, information and screenshots will be placed here.
(5.6) Frame Data:
Thanks to GWJumpman for assembling the frame information for ROB. I have perused each of the character boards to obtain frame data for comparison against ROB's moveset. I am not entirely, 100% sure these are super accurate, but they are a lot better than what I had before I suspended this section. As a note, the (x) in the ROB column is the # of frames if the attack whiffs/misses.
I have tried my best to standardize the lists, as some boards don't list some things, and DO list others. Additionall, any group of cells that are "blacked out" means that I couldn't readily find frame information for those specific moves.
(5.7) Conclusions:
This is definitely a frustrating matchup, and one that will probably last awhile- but it is certainly winnable. It all relies on neutralizing the banana game of Diddy. Even if you can not eliminate it entirely (who can?), diminishing it as much as possible swings the matchup more and more in your favor. Add to that the many options of taking advantage of Diddy’s recovery vs you living a long time; and you get an interesting matchup- its slightly in ROB’s favor, but ROB is definitely able to lose this.
(6.0) Kirby
credit to *pnutink @ deviantart for the image
Color Code: 55/45
This is pretty even matchup, as both characters trump eachother in various aspects of their game. ROB outranges Kirby on the ground, can outcamp him, and can gimp him easier than Kirby can ROB. However, Kirby has more options to kill at low percents (Hammer, F-smash), can get around ROBs camping game better than most characters, and can rack up damage much easier.
(6.1) Overall Strategy:
In this matchup, ROB wants to remain on the ground most of the time during the lower percentages, though the use of aerial combos should not be neglected if the opportunity presents itself. By doing so, he can camp Kirby and force him to approach. Kirby will use B-airs and sometimes F-air to approach, mixing them in with his multiple jumps to weave in and out, airdodges, empty short hops & fulljumps, and feigned aerials. As Kirby approaches, ROBs F-tilt (which is amazing in this matchup) can (and should) be used to shut the approach down, as long as you are not baited by the aforementioned Kirby mindgames. In the event that the Kirby spaces poorly, quick jabs from ROB can be used to capitalize, or to force him away from you.
At low percents, the aim of an approaching Kirby is to rack up an almost guaranteed 40-60% damage via grab combos (not only the Gonzo combo{which can be jumped out of after the first U-air}, but using grabs to set up aerial attacks). Due to ROBs size & weight, this is a rather easy accomplishment at low percents which results in the aforementioned "guaranteed" 40-60% damage.
Therefore, it is essential that you maximize the amount of damage you dish out *before* this happens. Camping and the use of F-tilt to shut down approaches, jabs to punish bad spacing, and D-smashes to punish whiffed grabs can all accomplish this.
Kirby's F-smash can kill as low as 90% if its fresh (depending on DI, boundaries of the stage, and where you are in relation to those boundaries). His hammer (grounded and aerial) can also kill at comparably low percentages, and his B-air can be used as well. With this in mind, you can see that the 30-60 percent between the "combos" and "kill" are essential. Maximize that time!
While Kirby does have absurd killing power, it is important to note that you CAN live to higher percents; maybe not the 150-170 ROB is accustomed to (though, that would be ideal), but rather around the 120-140% range. This can be accomplished by being patient, careful, campy, and baiting f-smashes/hammers and capitalizing on them.
Both ROB and Kirby have aerial advantages over one another when they are below one another. (IE; when ROB is below Kirby- advantage ROB, and vice versa). Both character's U-airs flat out beat the other character's D-air. However, Kirby has the advantage of having multiple jumps which can help him get OUT of your range from below (using an Up+B to chase him can leave you prone in its start-up, which Kirby can capitalize on with D-air).
When the two characters are horizontal in the air, ROB has the advantage. His F-air beats out most everything Kirby can throw (it trades with B-air), and ROB's B-air & its hitbox is superb in this matchup if spaced properly against any of Kirby's aerials. However, it can be beaten by an aerial hammer if you space it improperly or are THAT predictable with it.
Do your absolute best to ensure that Kirby does not inhale & swallow you to steal your laser power. If you are swallowed, you can D-air immediately out of it and often times hit Kirby with it providing he doesn't shield. But, try your HARDEST to make sure you DON'T get swallowed. He is already hard enough to camp as it is because of his multiple jumps and small stature, but allowing him to have a viable projectile option is NOT good. With the laser, he can easily outcamp you by utilizing his multiple jumps. In the event of him obtaining a gyro in conjunction with posessing your laser, your camping has been essentially negated.
Once Kirby has your power you have two options. First- hope the Kirby can not use your laser as well as you can (you'll find this out almost immediately). Second- you approach in an attempt to hit him a few good times and knock the ability out of him. By approaching you lose one face of your advantage in the matchup. Kirby has a good "bait and punish" game vs those who approach, and this is heightened against ROB.
As mentioned before, Kirby has powerful "outright" kill options. F-smash can be used outright, or after an N-air (to whittle away your shield)-->D-tilt (to trip). A D-air can replace the N-air, and has the possibility of tripping if unshielded (it can whittle away your shield and set-up for a D-tilt poke) which can lead to an F-smash. An aerial hammer to punish over-aggressive air combat, or as a surprise attack (even on the ground too).
But Kirby's edge-guarding game is nothing to laugh at either. Perfectly spaced B-airs can pose a hassle for ROB and also lead to gimps. Aerial hammer trixies can lead into KOs off-stage (don't forget about the 2x hits of the aerial hammers!). D-air-->footstool can put you in a VERY disadvantageous position, causing you to panic and attempt to recover only to eat more D-airs. Well spaced B-airs can be used, and intermingled with F-airs (similar to DDD's method). The stone transformation can result in outright KOs, or unexpected stage spikes. . And, there is always the possibility of a Kirby-cide.
When dealing with B-airs, F-airs will usually beat them out unless they are spaced exceptionally well. When dealing with aerial hammers, simply move out of the way if you can (though be careful as Kirby can use these to stall instead of his jumps, thereby following you down) or catch him between uses of it.
The stone can be tricky to deal with. It can be used to punish over-aggressive U-airing from below, and has a pair of hitboxes (when it hits the ground) like GaW's key. If you are close enough, use your U-air during its start-up. If you are too far away, move out of its path. Be careful when Kirby is far above you, as he can use the stone to cover the long vertical distance in an instant and aerial hammer or B-air out of it immediately. He can even transform back to put you in a "safe" state of mind, only to transform again and hit you with it (used on- or off-stage).
If you are expecting a D-air, time it right and U-air it as it will beat his. If you do get D-aired (and possibly footstooled after), DI it properly and also do not recover directly from below. You will just eat more and more of them until you are out of fuel. Instead, go under the stage and recover to the otherside or recover AWAY from the stage and up. If you choose the latter, watch out for any number of "horizontal" KO options (b-airs, hammers, f-airs). If you happen to get hit with a B-air, DI it up and you can use it to give you a boost upward at the expense of damage (or a possible KO
)Be extremely wary of Kirbycides at all times, but specifically in these situations: 1) You have a large lead on the same stock, 2) You have a large lead on your both on your last stock, 3)You are on your last stock and Kirby has at least a one stock lead.
Your main kill moves will be N-air (a fresh one kills Kirby at around 110% or so), U-smash (if the opportunity presents itself), F-smash (depending on percent/location/freshness), B-air (depending on freshness/location), D-air spikes (Kirby being vulnerable at the start-up of his Up+B), and F-airs.
You can RAR not only your B-airs, but your N-airs for an interesting change of pace. The use of ISJR (FullJump N-air--> buffered B-air--> SJ-->N-air-->Buffered B-air--> repeat; can end with a lower to the ground B-air or a FJ F-air, or land into a f-smash or grab...you get the point) can be a good mindgame, and may get you a free aerial while Kirby tries to sneak in, or a free grab/smash/gyro/laser/whatever depending on when/where you land.
Feinting approaches & retreats with RAR'd turnaround lasers & gyros, and normal turn-around lasers &gyros, and wavebounced lasers & gyros can lead to offensive openings where an N-air, or F-smash can be snuck in.
(6.2) Defragmentation Data:
Sudai breaks the percent ranges down into groups of 0-35% (group A or “A” for our purposes), 35-70% (“B”), 70-110% (“C”), 110-135% (“D”) 135-150% (“E”):
A: Combo/Poke
B: Poke/Camp
C: Poke/Kill
D: Kill
E: Kill
(6.3) Stages:
There really isn't too much to put here, as the debate about stages seemed to end with the general consensus that it is moreso dependant on the Kirby PLAYER as opposed to Kirby the CHARACTER. Therefore, you should counterpick your personal preferences/what they don't feel comfortable on and ban what you feel least comfortable with/their personal preference.
Neutrals: Final Destination, Smashville
Counterpicks: Personal Preference & Comfort Level
Ban: Personal Preference & Comfort Level
(6.4) Specific Moves Guide:
Essentially, I want to list the most commonly used moves for damage-racking & KOs here, and how to properly DI out of them. I will admit, I am HORRIBLE at escaping multi-hit moves (though quite good at DI’ing AFTER the moves in order to stay alive), and so this is certainly not my strong-point, so any help here will be appreciated, and added accordingly. Ideally, it would be listed in the following:
Move:
(If used on the rise, DI this way)
(If used falling, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting forward {toward you}, DI that way)
(If the attacker is drifting backwards {away from you}, DI this way)
Gonzo Combo (Grab-->U-air-->Regrab-->U-air-->F-smash): Jump after the first U-air and it will end the string.
D-air (offstage):
(6.5) Zoning Guide:
Once the zoning discussion gets started, information and screenshots will be placed here.
(6.6) Frame Data:
Thanks to GWJumpman for assembling the frame information for ROB. I have perused each of the character boards to obtain frame data for comparison against ROB's moveset. I am not entirely, 100% sure these are super accurate, but they are a lot better than what I had before I suspended this section. As a note, the (x) in the ROB column is the # of frames if the attack whiffs/misses.
I have tried my best to standardize the lists, as some boards don't list some things, and DO list others. Additionall, any group of cells that are "blacked out" means that I couldn't readily find frame information for those specific moves.
(6.7) Conclusions:
Both characters outshine the others in various areas, and counter eachother's strengths relatively well. Kirby has the advantage in low % combo ability, and kill power. ROB has the ability to camp and shut-down approaches and survivability.
All in all, this is a pretty even matchup, and can go either way thoughon average ROB has a smidge of an advantage.
