Complete Character Matchup Synopsis: UPDATED WITH FRAME COMPARISONS

[ZOM~B]

I've never fought an MK that stays directly above me when they try to gimp me. Any MK worth their salt knows this and abuses it, so in essence, I was right.

Of course. That's why I said you were only partially wrong. But it's still a tool ROB can utilize in the matchup. From my experience the best way to recover against MK is to force him to return to the ledge by going low, and then recover so that while you're recovering he's directly above you - forcing him to either give up the ledge or eat an up air.

 

[Syde7]

I somehow completely missed this post..



MK's DAir outranges ROB's UAir. Fail.



MK has to run into ROB's NAir if you try to do that. His Up-B moves fast enough that ROB can't NAir on reaction but MK can punish NAir on reaction.


Just pointing out that the MKs you play fail if either of those options still work on them.



Jam, if you do, come out with it. I don't particularly care if ROB has a wtfhax option vs MK but I'm sure the other ROBs on the board would appreciate it.

. FD = ROB wins, Battlefield = DK wins, Rainbow = ROB wins, Picto = DK wins, ect, ect. It's a lot more than just "Two characters on a stage! Go!", imo.

For the record, even though Sudai quoted me with all that nonsense, it wasn't me who said it.

I dun like when Sudai is mean... well, not when it looks like he's mean to me =P, lol. Everyone else... gogogogogo! Rofl.




That being said... and on an otherwise partially related topic:

If it makes you guys feel better, I only agree with the MK and D3 numbers.

(post#44)

^ during DK discussion

I have DK listed as 50/50. Contradiction, or change of heart?

(post#45)

There was a big change of heart on the DK match-up since our DK discussion. DK can plank the **** out of ROB if he gets the lead (which isn't rare for the powerhouse)

(post#47)

As for the DK thing, I still feel it's 50/50, it's just a matter of whoever gets the lead first wins. Oh, and stage plays a major role in the ratio

(post#77)


Sudai changes his mind like the wind =P

Disclaimer: I'm just picking with you Sudai, not trying to be a d-bag or anything. =P

 

[Sudai]

Well, my mind changes on the DK match-up so much because I play Cyphus a lot and he's my main competitor for 2nd place at tournaments (we're both catching up to Lee Martin, but neither of us can take more than 1 game off of him yet. :/) so my ideas on the match-up change rapidly due to the fact that me and him are developing the metagame rapidly.

 

[Syde7]

Well, my mind changes on the DK match-up so much because I play Cyphus a lot and he's my main competitor for 2nd place at tournaments (we're both catching up to Lee Martin, but neither of us can take more than 1 game off of him yet. :/) so my ideas on the match-up change rapidly due to the fact that me and him are developing the metagame rapidly.

Well played, Sir. Well played. Best of luck with the Lee Martin business. Haha. (stops getting off topic)

 

[Sudai]

Nah, I prolly won't catch up to him anymore and I'm fairly sure Cyphus is gonna blow past me soon. They both still care about the game, I don't anymore. Haha.

I'm done going off topic too. Sorry.

 

[Mr.E]

Re: recent posts and stuff

I <3 Halberd against G&W. (MK too!) The lower ceiling makes for an easier kill with NAir and the fly-through stage is a huge boon for ROB recovering against those with a strong ledgeguarding game against him (including G&W). As for G&W in general, he becomes a lot easier once you learn how to deal with him. (Playing cautiously to avoid his Smashes at kill percents, dealing with his strong but one-dimensional approach, etc.) It's still to his advantage, as he kills ROB's blind spot and ledgeguards strongly, but it's nowhere near the problem that MK or ZSS can be.

I enjoy playing chicken with MK below stage level and beating him with my UAir a vast majority of the time. You get knocked off-stage and MK has to waste half his jumps just to get to you, so you can dance around him long enough to force him back to the ledge. He doesn't have the option to horizontally out-space your UAir because ROB can stay under MK longer than he can maintain his position before having to go back to the ledge for more jumps. (Even if you allow him that spacing, you can rise and smack him with FAir.) You can even just fly straight to the ledge with him. If you're within auto-snap range when he lets go to use a ledge-invincibility aerial on you, you'll latch on immediately and you can quickly jump/roll past him to get back on stage. If he holds on longer and you bounce off the ledge flying into it, sometimes you can smack him off with FAir as his invincibility runs out. (If not, you eat a UAir or NAir and you can recover high.) Or, in other words, what ZOM~B said.

And while I laugh at the idea of DK planking anybody, I've gotten some good DK experience since the new year (where before I had none) and it's definitely a more even match-up than I expected, which was the lopsided campfest ROB has against most of the larger cast. No, DK has both the range and speed to rival ROB.

 

[Sudai]

Your scenario still doesn't work, Mr. E. If you're floating below them, you can't airdodge. A good MK realizes this and floats down behind you low enough to DAir and it's impossible to NAir or BAir in time. GG hope you know how to tech. There's seriously a reason why I just don't **** with MK offstage. I tried for hours in friendlies with Lee Martin's MK and it just does not work against an MK that knows wtf they're doing.

DK planking is a very real possibility. His up-b has three frames of invincibility on it and can re-grab the ledge on frame 8. That means he has 5 frames of vulnerability. During those 5 frames of vulnerability, he out-prioritizes gyros. On top of this, they're not just going to be spamming Ledge-drop > Up-B. They actually time it so the invincibility is where they want it and what not. I laughed at myself for letting it work against me for a while, but then I realized it works, went to the DK boards, did some reading, and it works against a -lot- of characters. It's stupid.

 

[JCaesar]

DK planking is a very real possibility. His up-b has three frames of invincibility on it and can re-grab the ledge on frame 8. That means he has 5 frames of vulnerability. During those 5 frames of vulnerability, he out-prioritizes gyros. On top of this, they're not just going to be spamming Ledge-drop > Up-B. They actually time it so the invincibility is where they want it and what not. I laughed at myself for letting it work against me for a while, but then I realized it works, went to the DK boards, did some reading, and it works against a -lot- of characters. It's stupid.

So why doesn't DK's metagame revolve around getting a stock lead and then planking for the remaining 7 minutes? Most people aren't douches but there have to be at least a few good DK players who would do this if they got the chance. There must be some way around it.

 

[Sudai]

There's not very many good DK players and there's only one douche among them, but even he doesn't plank because he's only a douche in real life, not in the game. The DK boards are actually full of some pretty nice people. Haha.

 

[Mr.E]

So only Meta Knight players are douchey (that's not a word!) enough to plank or what?

Your scenario still doesn't work, Mr. E. If you're floating below them, you can't airdodge. A good MK realizes this and floats down behind you low enough to DAir and it's impossible to NAir or BAir in time. GG hope you know how to tech. There's seriously a reason why I just don't **** with MK offstage. I tried for hours in friendlies with Lee Martin's MK and it just does not work against an MK that knows wtf they're doing.

It's not even my scenario, I'm corROBorating what ZOM~B said. Clearly, I'm not the only one who has had success with this.

Behind ROB, air dodging? What are you talking about? MK has terrible air speed and short jumps, so he can't really weave around to avoid ROB's gigantic UAir hitbox anyway, but it's no different than him being in front of ROB even if he could. ROB's UAir has equally crappy range to either side of it and MK can easily be facing either direction. (Hell, so could ROB, but then you couldn't BAir to protect your return to the stage if you get past him.)

It's not like you have the choice of not dealing with MK offstage. You get knocked off, he comes to edgeguard, end of discussion. How does ROB beat it?

Go high? If you DI into the high corner, that can work. But MK's Shuttle Loop has a negative trajectory and his DSmash has a low enough trajectory that you can't DI it that high. Getting knocked off at or near stage level is not uncommon against MK and you can't feasibly fly over his head much of the time, keeping in mind that you have to get quite a ways over him to avoid Shuttle Loop. And where going high is a reasonable option, you still have to get back to the ground once you're over the stage.

Going for the ledge at stage level is not a good idea. MK can easily get under ROB in this position to continually juggle you off-stage with FAir or land the Shuttle Loop gimp.

Or you can go low. Since MK has five jumps and the ability to recover from anywhere, this basically equates to playing chicken with the boundary line. Who can stay out there the longest before having to return to the stage? Tthe answer to that question is ROB every single time, because you got knocked out there "for free" where MK has to burn half his jumps just to reach you. Therefore, MK is the one pressured to make a move and ROB can almost always take advantage of this to make the ledge. See: the previous few posts on this subject.

Of course, the best option is to pick a stage with a fly-through floor *coughHALBERDcough* so you can just fly straight under him to get back uncontested 100% of the time.

And yeah, I'm pro at teching. One time in a Falcon ditto, I edgehogged and got Up-B stage spiked. And by stage spiked I mean I killed my opponent with BAir out of the ledge tech. 10epeens

 

[Sudai]

So only Meta Knight players are douchey (that's not a word!) enough to plank or what?

No, I'm just pointing out why DK players haven't done this.

Behind ROB, air dodging? What are you talking about? MK has terrible air speed and short jumps, so he can't really weave around to avoid ROB's gigantic UAir hitbox anyway

To get below MK to UAir you have to be relatively close to the stage (assuming he just went back for invincibility and jumps like claimed) which means there will be very little weaving necessary to get behind ROB.

but it's no different than him being in front of ROB even if he could. ROB's UAir has equally crappy range to either side of it and MK can easily be facing either direction. (Hell, so could ROB, but then you couldn't BAir to protect your return to the stage if you get past him.)

The only difference with him being in front of ROB is that you have a chance to FAir him if he's in front of you.

It's not like you have the choice of not dealing with MK offstage. You get knocked off, he comes to edgeguard, end of discussion. How does ROB beat it?

Go low. If MK tries to get you, fly under the stage. That simple.

Go high? If you DI into the high corner, that can work. But MK's Shuttle Loop has a negative trajectory and his DSmash has a low enough trajectory that you can't DI it that high. Getting knocked off at or near stage level is not uncommon against MK and you can't feasibly fly over his head much of the time, keeping in mind that you have to get quite a ways over him to avoid Shuttle Loop. And where going high is a reasonable option, you still have to get back to the ground once you're over the stage.

Going for the ledge at stage level is not a good idea. MK can easily get under ROB in this position to continually juggle you off-stage with FAir or land the Shuttle Loop gimp.

Or you can go low. Since MK has five jumps and the ability to recover from anywhere, this basically equates to playing chicken with the boundary line. Who can stay out there the longest before having to return to the stage? Tthe answer to that question is ROB every single time, because you got knocked out there "for free" where MK has to burn half his jumps just to reach you. Therefore, MK is the one pressured to make a move and ROB can almost always take advantage of this to make the ledge. See: the previous few posts on this subject.

All of that taken care of with going under the stage.

Of course, the best option is to pick a stage with a fly-through floor *coughHALBERDcough* so you can just fly straight under him to get back uncontested 100% of the time.

Of course this works even better recovery-wise.

And yeah, I'm pro at teching. One time in a Falcon ditto, I edgehogged and got Up-B stage spiked. And by stage spiked I mean I killed my opponent with BAir out of the ledge tech. 10epeens

It doesn't really matter anyway. Once the MK realizes you can tech consistently even that's easy to beat. Regular tech? Drop a little more DAir again or Shuttle Loop stage spike. Wall-jump tech, same thing except they do it where they are or jump a little and they don't have to stage spike. You air dodge either? You're back to the original situation except now you have less fuel.

 

[Mr.E]

You need most of your fuel to fly under a stage, especially if you're already below stage level, and you can't even fly under many stages. (Yoshi's, Castle Siege, both PKMN Stadiums, PictoChat, Pirate Ship and Mansion of the questionable stages, and Halberd while on the ship.) Needless to say, it's frequently not an option and you should consider what else ROB can do to get around MK's edgeguarding. But I suppose you no longer care anyway, what with Brawl+ and all.

Maybe you were just doing it wrong.

 

[Sudai]

I can use that "argument" all day too. Maybe you were doing it wrong. See? Now isn't that a convenient "argument."

I know flying under a stage isn't always viable, hence the "when I can" portion a few post back.

As for not caring? You're right, I don't care about how I do. If you think I don't care how my friends do, though (and I like to consider the majority of the ROB boards my friends), then you're dead wrong.

Seriously though, go do something worth mention and then try to argue with me. Maybe then the fact that you don't know much about the game won't matter any more. I've played Lee Martin (back when he mained MK), Dojo, Inui, M2K (all three at WHOBO which was not long ago, and Dojo at various tournaments), and numerous other good MKs. It is very easy for MK to get around UAir recoveries and gimp you.

 

[Commander_Beef]

You can use all of your fuel in two trips below Smashville XD.

 

[Mr.E]

The only reason I said what I did, Sudai, was because you already implied the reverse, that "maybe you're just not playing good Meta Knights," with your omgleemartinis22222gud spiel. So yeah, **** you and your elitist douche attitude. You wanna talk about my credentials? You've done no better than I have, which is generally mediocre at every event I attend. You don't (or didn't) beat your region's top players any more than I do mine, so you have no room to talk ****. Nonetheless, information and execution are two different things. Claiming I know nothing based on my performance is both irrelevant and poor form (insulting).

People play MK everywhere. There's no shortage of MK players anywhere because he's the best character in the game by a good margin. Just because I haven't played M2K doesn't mean I don't know how to fight the character. Lee Martin doesn't even play MK any more, who cares what happened last year if the information is outdated?

So what, if you can't fly under the stage... you just give up? We know ROB can power through MK with UAir and keep truckin', so what makes it so very easy for him to get around it? The UAir hitbox isn't a pixel wide, it's wider than MK's tiny puffball body at least. ROB has two arms, after all. It's most definitely not "easy" for MK to beat it, as ROB has more say in the spacing than MK due to his faster air speed and superior range. So yeah, I'd have to say it's ROB's screw-up more than MK's super skill. Granted, it's MK, it's pretty easy to screw up against him because things that usually aren't a screw-up against other characters are against him...

 

[Sudai]

I question your credentials because you claim that UAir is basically a surefire way to power through an MK edgeguard which just is not true. I've pointed out the numerous reasons why it's not true but you refuse to see the facts.

The only reason I dropped names was for further evidence since apparently facts aren't good enough for you so I tried to provide anecdotal evidence. Apparently that's not enough for you either. I guess if something works against the Ohio MKs it must be true for the best MKs in the nation as well! :o

I'm done trying to discuss anything with you. In every single discussion you and I have ever had you've been completely bull headed and refuse to see anyone else's side. You don't even provide evidence to support yourself, simply things like "I've had this work even though all the facts show that it doesn't work when my opponents know what the **** they're doing." Good day sir.

 

[Syde7]

I SAID, GOOD DAY SIR!

</willywonkareferencefornootherreasonthanitwasbeggingtobereferenced>

 

[Mr.E]

You don't even provide evidence to support yourself, simply things like "I've had this work even though all the facts show that it doesn't work when my opponents know what the **** they're doing."

The only thing I've heard out of you is "I haven't had this work even though all the facts show that it does work if I know what the **** I'm doing."

I've taken crap from you before about "namedropping," because oh I mentioned playing lain once (hey lain come visit our thread again !!), but that's all you're doing right now. Take your own advice and can it. You're indirectly insulting ZOM~B as well, seeing as how he was the one who first brought it up. Now, it would be incorrect to assume that we are correct simply because it's two against one, but clearly I'm not the only one who has had fair success with it. Perhaps you should reconsider what you thought you knew.

Topic over, before you have to infract me and yourself. *cough*

 

[ZOM~B]

I think upair beating dair when space properly is important enough to be in the matchup synopsis, is really what I was trying to say. ROB *does* have the tools to recover against MK. Combined with going under the stage and recovering high... even if it's just forcing his hand to shuttleloop/upair you the wrong way. Recovering and taking ~8% damage >>> being gimped.

Just because it isn't guaranteed doesn't mean it isn't good... see: tech chasing

Of course if an MK reads you perfectly you'll never recover. That much is true. But if you read an MK perfectly - you'll always recover (though if you're reading him perfectly: you won't have to)

 

[Mr.E]

If any player could be perfect with MK, they would never lose since he has no known disadvantaged match-ups. :/

 

[Syde7]

Added Lucario.

Also, Sudai, can you fix it so I have the second post now? is that possible? I think imma hafta turn the first into a contents, and the second/subsrquent posts into where the synopses goes.

 

[Sudai]

Also, Sudai, can you fix it so I have the second post now? is that possible? I think imma hafta turn the first into a contents, and the second/subsrquent posts into where the synopses goes.

Done .

 

[Syde7]

Done .

Thanks a ton, man. Much appreciated.

 

[Mr.E]

It's not mentioned but UTilt OoS is a fantastic retaliation tool against vertical shield pressuring, like Lucario's DAir. You can do this to a lot of other shield pressuring techniques against other characters as well, such as a Peach trying to float over ROB or Pikachu QAC-ing inside your shield. It puts out a higher hitbox than your other OoS options and it's the fastest thing ROB can do OoS except Jab.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

It's not mentioned but UTilt OoS is a fantastic retaliation tool against vertical shield pressuring, like Lucario's DAir. You can do this to a lot of other shield pressuring techniques against other characters as well, such as a Peach trying to float over ROB or Pikachu QAC-ing inside your shield. It puts out a higher hitbox than your other OoS options and it's the fastest thing ROB can do OoS except Jab.

Baiting and usmashing lucario's dair is a much better use of your time.

You CAN NOT punish peach's dair OoS. dont even try. Just roll - run - projectile.

dsmash pika QAC.

utilt has its uses, but not for any of the ones you named.

 

[Syde7]

I've succeeded in punishing D-air out of shield before... but something tells me that there was a window that they were waiting to see what I did before doing another D-air, which enabled me to U-tilt it. That is to say, they fecked up. I imagine that that's the only way a U-tilt can work OoS on peach?

Not saying your wrong by any means... just wondering why it is I can do it sometimes, and am just hypothesising that its bc it was a flaw on THEIR part (which would help your statement of not being able to punish D-air OoS)

 

[Mr.E]

It should work but a smart Peach will simply float back away far enough that you won't be able to UTilt them anyway. *cough* Yeah, you would usually be better served by just rolling away.

Pikachu is going to be jumping out of a QAC (indeed, he can't do much else) and I don't think DSmash works then, unless you can get him between the Quick Attack hitbox and the jumping aerial hitbox. Does that really work?

 

[TEECO]

ROB vs. Lucario..

I personally am not comfortable with this matchup.
I always get comboed for the first 50% or so, take a big lead, and they plow up damage at high percent.

I need to camp more, and know my range e__e;

Does anyone else use side B in this match up? It's really easy to tell when they are going to shoot a giant aura.

 

[Inferno3044]

Hello ROB players. The Mario boards are discussing the ROB matchup, and we want your help so that we are accurate. Thank you

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=227291&page=57

 

[★J.G WentWorth★]

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*Subscribed*

Amazing thread Dull

 

[Syde7]

*Subscribed*

Amazing thread Dull

Thanks. I've been a bit lazy the past week or so with this, Im going to try to get things strted up again on it soon. (I know, ive said that like... twice... but, lotsa rl stuff been goin on).

 

[Ruse]

When the h*** are we going to do IC?

A lot of IC mains are saying that the match-up is a lot better than originally thought (for them).

 

[Syde7]

Alright, ICs will be next week then. ^_^

 

[Jamnt0ast]

looking again at your GnW stage synopsis........
With bucket breaking, Japes has become an amazing GnW stage. You CAN NOT KILL him there.

just a thought.

 

[Syde7]

looking again at your GnW stage synopsis........
With bucket breaking, Japes has become an amazing GnW stage. You CAN NOT KILL him there.

just a thought.

Ya, I know... i've been meaning to change it, just... haven't gotten around to it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

R.O.B. boards, Link is talking about you, tell us what you think of it:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231077

 

[professor mgw]

pivot grab for meta isn't so easy to catch someone with. using rob's a moves should give you a fair start with mk.

 

[Fear The Force]

we need to get a synopsis up on snake

 

[Commander_Beef]

Great thread dullrazer...

 

[Fear The Force]

dullrazer, I'm willing to help if you need help with this. all of us ROB mainers would find it a big help if we got more matchup summaries up.