Competitve Smash vs Competitve 2D fighters. Discussion.

[CloneHat]

I've played both SF and Smash and I like Smash much more, mostly because of the freedom it gives you.

In Street Fighter, a hit is guaranteed to lead into certain other attacks, causing a certain amount of damage; if you leave the ground, where and when you're going to land is already determined. If you try to move away from your opponent when close, you're forced into a restrictive block, where there only way to escape is to wait for your opponent to stop attacking.

Things like make the game feel clunky and on-rails, at least compared to Smash.

 

[Tranzworld]

Hmm. I've come to realize recently thats pretty hard to compare the two. The skill it takes to play GG and MvC2 is far different than what it takes to play melee. So it really is probably impossible to compare the two.
Lets just say its all really difficult. haha

This is probably why threads like these will always be doomed to fail. Comparing all the various fighting games is so different and preference based that you can't say which game requires more skill than the other (hell, I'd argue Brawl even takes some skill - the skill of having enough patience to camp hard enough to win), so on the whole It's a difficult prospect. Each game has their nuances and each one has their easy parts. There's just no way to compare it all, unfortunately.

 

[Laijin]

This is probably why threads like these will always be doomed to fail. Comparing all the various fighting games is so different and preference based that you can't say which game requires more skill than the other (hell, I'd argue Brawl even takes some skill - the skill of having enough patience to camp hard enough to win), so on the whole It's a difficult prospect. Each game has their nuances and each one has their easy parts. There's just no way to compare it all, unfortunately.

And thats really all I was hoping to get from this thread(and it's SRK clone). But I have learned two things from this:
What you just said and most people don't really like playing other games their not comfortable with. Probably why Guilty Gear wasn't as popular as Street Fighter

 

[oakleaf]

I've thought about that the other day, and it appeared clearly in my mind: the fundamental difference between Smash and other 2D fighters is the goal of the game. With Smash it's "push out of the limits" VS "lower the HP to 0" in other fighting games.

Therefore, you can edgeguard. This means so much. It means you can have gimps at low percents, or long edgeguards like Armada does for exemple (taking a falco from 0 to death by having him offstage, then edgeguarding repeatively until death). This adds so much complexity in the gameplay that it would take too long to list the parameters introduced.

Other fighting games are almost linear (with the exception of the side walls), whereas Smash is non-linear.

 

[kupo15]

I play competitive smash and honestly understand all the working mechanics of the game (known thus far) pretty well but I don't understand anything about 2d fighters nor do I care for them much. Its such a foreign design for me and the mindless memorization of complicated button combos just to learn how to play the game is a turn off for me. I like smash because the inputs are stupid easy but combining and applying them to an ever changing environment is the hard part. Like someone said:

"In smash, you play read people, not books"

I know that you have to read ppl in other FGs, however.

For me, I feel that 64 is a much better comparison to trad fighters than melee for tons of reasons:
-No DI means that you can actually practice combos in training mode that will work on ppl much like trad fighters

-Shield is more unsafe in 64 and leads to shield breaks more often similar to trad fighters

-Longer true combos due to higher hitstun

I'm sure I'm missing more similarities.


The major difference between smash and trad fighters is the lack of a "health bar" in the traditional way. You can be hit 100 times and still live while only hitting them 2x to kill them.

I agree that melee will continue to grow and it may never reach a peak metagame the way trad fighters do because smash is a freestyle game where players make the combos, not the developers. Its kinda like Stage editors.

EDIT:
Oh, Oakleaf said one of my reasons lol

 

[Theftz22]

Lmao. Considered that SRKers might just be tired of smash players coming onto the board every month and trying to preach about why smash is a real fighting game? It's happened many times, and the outcome has been the same many times. An serious discussion about smash will not last more than a few days on SRK.

 

[LLDL]

LOL, the smash community is much more friendly than the mortal kombat community lemme tell ya. They rage quit every match and are racist, and if you win 30 matches, the second they win one they kick you out of the party and claim that you suck. I'm sure an ACTUAL community would be much better, but MK community is pretty much dead. When mortal kombat 9 comes out, i'll go to tournaments and see what everything's all about.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

the difference is that smash is really fun and those other games where you just walk around back and forth aren't.



but yo, **** = street fighter walk in melee (esp with falco). ****in tilt the control stick. ****.

 

[Jonas]

the difference is that smash is really fun and those other games where you just walk around back and forth aren't.

Subjective. For instance, I think Street Fighter is a ton of fun. There are also those who think Smash isn't fun.

but yo, **** = street fighter walk in melee (esp with falco). ****in tilt the control stick. ****.

What?

 

[bossa nova ♪]

Subjective. For instance, I think Street Fighter is a ton of fun. There are also those who think Smash isn't fun.

 

[TakFR]

Lmao. Considered that SRKers might just be tired of smash players coming onto the board every month and trying to preach about why smash is a real fighting game? It's happened many times, and the outcome has been the same many times. An serious discussion about smash will not last more than a few days on SRK.

I've been there, regardless of the fact that I destroyed people's arguments (2d fighters have frame and tech traps but smash doesn't apparently -_-') they still refuse to even slightly budge on the argument, basically holding there hands over there ears and yelling >_>.

SF3, GG and BB are the only good ones anyway.

 

[Griffard]

I started getting into (fighting) games here at SmashBoards, and earlier this year I had a "real" fighting game revelation and spent most of my time at SRK. I'm now back playing Melee and trying to play it semi-competitively. Having experienced both worlds a decent amount (I'm fairly solid at Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom), I can say that both kinds of games require great amounts of skill to excel at, but it's not really skill that can be compared. The inputs are obviously way harder in traditional 2D fighters, but there is less depth, since the foundations of those games are meter management, timing, spacing, punishing, and comboes. Melee has all of these facets of gameplay and adds on edge-guarding/aerial warfare (a MASSIVE part of the game), more kinds of movement, DI, etc. I find Smash to be easier, but it's likely that I think that because I have been playing it half of my life. If I had been playing SSF2T since it came out then I'm sure I would find 623 inputs on response to a jump-in more natural than WD-ing away from a U-Smash. It's really about your background, and once we find someone equally well versed in Smash and Street Fighter (as an example), they'll be able to settle this once and for all.

tl;dr version: they both require lots of skill, but different sorts of skill that are as comparable as apples and oranges.

 

[Theftz22]

I've been there, regardless of the fact that I destroyed people's arguments (2d fighters have frame and tech traps but smash doesn't apparently -_-') they still refuse to even slightly budge on the argument, basically holding there hands over there ears and yelling >_>.

Why do you even feel the need to go onto SRK and "validate" smash as a real fighting game? Obviously they don't want anything to do with smash and repeatedly bringing it up in the fighting game discussion doesn't help (there is a smash section if you really feel the need). It's well established that whenever a smasher comes on preaching about why smash is a real fighting game and (for some odd reason) asking that the SRK community consider it one, it's trollin' time.

 

[Lovage]

street fighter 4 blows

guilty gear is pretty sick tho

 

[PB&J]

laijin - you need to get marty up in here..he plays both games and is good in both..he is actually better in other 2d's..so im sure he would post something good

srk always act like that..i know the best people in ssf4 out in here in ga and always get brawl and melee confused..so thats where the problem is and earlier this year @ final round they had melee and there weren't alot of entrants. if we wanted respect from other fighters we totally missed completly..final round is the second biggest fighting tourny next to evo and mods on the boards never sticky the threads.( which i dont understand) i think its too late now. i think they dont want to have smash at any future events anymore ..just for us not showing up..even though alot of us didnt know about it

 

[Bones0]

For a while now I've seriously considered the fact that Melee may be the most competitive form of competition to ever grace the planet. Not trying to be a Melee fanboy, but when you think about the skill gap that is created it isn't that hard to believe. I often play my friend who knows the basic ATs, and I consistently 4-stock him. He consistently 4-stocks other players just from practice with me. At the few tournaments I've been to, I've been 3/4-stocked by multiple players, and those players have in turn been 3/4-stocked by another player. It just seems like being even slightly better or more knowledgeable about Smash leads to huge gaps in scores. You can also look at tournament sets. The large majority of sets end in 2-0. The few that don't are often between players who play each other all the time so they are kept on a similar skill level by practice. It's also important to consider that the second game of every set has the stage picked by the loser. As far as I can tell, most fighting game stages have little to no affect on matchups (if I'm wrong, please let me know how it does because I honestly don't know). Virtually all Melee tournaments have AT LEAST 7 different stages to choose from, and they all vary quite a lot in who gets the advantage in a lot of the matchups. What I find ridiculous is that even with the loser being able to pick the map and possibly change characters, the better player still typically wins with just 1 ban. I just think it's pretty amazing a game can be so competitive that the community can allow the loser of the first match to pick their second-best map (first-best being banned by the winner of game 1) and they are still consistently getting 2-0d.

I wouldn't ever claim to outright know that Melee is DEFINITELY the most competitive game, let alone general form of competition, but it is definitely the most competitive out of MY PERSONAL current pool of knowledge of all things competitive. The depth of the game is so vast and even 9 years into the game there is still a lot of the "it doesn't matter what moves you use, but how you use them" because of the vast freedom allowed in mobility. I'm sure everyone's done something similar, but it's like winning with a single move. I can beat a few players with only grabs or only fsmashes, and I know there are plenty of players who can do the same to me. It is kind of hilarious to think that the skill gap is that wide when the only variable is their movement patterns and when they use that one attack. The game would be pretty complex if all you could do was play Marth and the only attacks you could use were grabs and fsmashes. When you add in all the other characters and all the other attacks, the options essentially become infinite.

 

[Oracle]

Street fighter and marvel probably aren't as competitive because there are huge points where you disengage from the game mentally, as your basic block strings and combos; whereas in melee because of DI no string of buttons is ever guaranteed (with the exception of wobbling and against the wall waveshining). Melee still has all of the other aspects that make those games competitive, also (maybe not wake up game, but that's debateable)

 

[Signia]

Street fighter and marvel probably aren't as competitive because

HAHAHAHA omg man. Are you unaware of how massive the street fighter community is?

 

[PB&J]

yeah its way bigger than the smash community

 

[LLDL]

the bigger they are, the harder they fail

 

[Geist]

@bones0: I wouldn't relate skill gap with competitiveness. Just because the margin of skill is less apparent in other games doesn't mean it isn't there. If I sometimes two stock player A who regularily two stocks me, but I lose to player B 100% of the time by a small margin, how do you calculate skill gap there?

 

[Laijin]

Sounds like Player A is sandbagging sometimes.

 

[Melomaniacal]

HAHAHAHA omg man. Are you unaware of how massive the street fighter community is?

I think he's talking about the competitive value of the game itself, not the level of competition the community brings it to.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

You know I wish some of you guys were like me in the way of knowing how to make haters feel ********. Really pople who try to hate me can't they totally fail and fall on their faces like *******. Seriously thats a challage try to hate me and not feel dumb or like you just can't hate me right. Really don't mind if they hate you and turn everything around on them in a way that makes it impossible to follow-up. If you say i'm a f***ing ****** i'll say thank you for pointing out my flaw any advice you may share to help me improve seeing how you seem to know what you're talking about?

 

[EPsilon933]

you know i wish some of you guys were like me in the way of knowing how to make haters feel ********. Really pople who try to hate me can't they totally fail and fall on their faces like *******. Seriously thats a challage try to hate me and not feel dumb or like you just can't hate me right. Really don't mind if they hate you and turn everything around on them in a way that makes it impossible to follow-up. If you say i'm a f***ing ****** i'll say thank you for pointing out my flaw any advice you may share to help me improve seeing how you seem to know what you're talking about?

i'm dissin' you like a hater! <3

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

as me the hater or you as the hater?

if you force them to use logic you can out logic them how you win arguements with dumb people XD

 

[Gamegenie222]

as me the hater or you as the hater?

if you force them to use logic you can out logic them how you win arguements with dumb people XD

Nice way to mind**** people man. Piss people off by using logic.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I'm a master of mindgames I mindrape people in some many ways it's not right.i've had a serious debate with someone before and in the middle of it I smashed my head against a wall and kept talking he lost his whole train of thought.

however Please don't think i'm trying to say i'm smart even if others think I am t's only a small diffence that hardly is noticeable in the grand slalce(spell fail)

 

[Gamegenie222]

I'm a master of mindgames I mindrape people in some many ways it's not right.i've had a serious debate with someone before and in the middle of it I smashed my head against a wall and kept talking he lost his whole train of thought.

however Please don't think i'm trying to say i'm smart even if others think I am t's only a small diffence that hardly is noticeable in the grand slalce(spell fail)

Don't worry about it and I wonder what is the other fighting game communities #1 tier character/ most broken character stuff like that and can anyone try to figure out the meanings of these pics?

 

[SpongeJordan]

Don't worry about it and I wonder what is the other fighting game communities #1 tier character/ most broken character stuff like that and can anyone try to figure out the meanings of these pics?

Street Fighter is for ***s. (Eh.)
Blazblue is for azn ***s. (Eh.)
Vs fans are all black. (It's true.)
No one plays Virtua Fighter. (It's true.)
KoF is immensely popular in Mexico. (It is.)
Melty fans are weeaboos. (Anime theme)
Tekken is for clowns. (Juggling)
AH fans are ronery weeaboos that love their underground games almost as much as the lolis in them. (It's true.)
Smash fans are babies. (Eh.)

 

[Laijin]

Street Fighter is for ***s. (Eh.)
Blazblue is for azn ***s. (Eh.)
Vs fans are all black. (It's true.)
No one plays Virtua Fighter. (It's true.)
KoF is immensely popular in Mexico. (It is.)
Melty fans are weeaboos. (Anime theme)
Tekken is for clowns. (Juggling)
AH fans are ronery weeaboos that love their underground games almost as much as the lolis in them. (It's true.)
Smash fans are babies. (Eh.)

This is what this really means.

Street Fighter: HAVE YOU SEEN RICKY ORTIZ? lolololol. He fits that picture perfectly.
Blazblue is for homos.
Vs Fans are for..well..the picture speaks for itself.
Virtua Fighter lol who plays that game
King of Fighters players are all dirty.
Melty Blood fans are weaboos. True
Tekken Fans are clowns. You are right
AH hearts fans are super lonely weaboos
Smash fans are kids. This is the only one that is not true. lol. Average age in the community is 18-24.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

brawlers are younger and we all got into it for the most when we were little kids : P

 

[Laijin]

brawlers are younger and we all got into it for the most when we were little kids : P

lol true. But the melee community grew up, therefore most of us are 18-24. I don't really count the brawl community. Brawl is a terrible terrible game lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

wish it had cool inf. combos ******** ground flopping isn't coool as waveshining but not as gay as wobbling.

Really my only problems with the game is they tryed to make it uncompetive with tripping and everything I mean i've played bushido blade that has tripping but at least it has setting and isn't random. And the total lack of charcter control compared to melee. I swear try to DD dash attack you do a f***ing bair perfectly spaced okay I geuss so.

The di makes me rage and lack of powersheilding like how I powersheild lasers back at falco and laugh as I get sexy combos. that and the edges/ledges really play as pichu for a few days and try not to hate everyone esle and their sweetspot it's worse than being chain thrown by sheik because you sneezed.

 

[Doc King]

brawlers are younger and we all got into it for the most when we were little kids : P

Brawl came after Melee and has only been out for 2 years.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

smashmomma won't play it give that s*** out of here.

 

[Theftz22]

This is the only one that is not true. lol.

U dumb?

??10??

 

[Laijin]

U dumb?

??10??

Ever been to a melee tournament bro?
Honestly, at any given national you might find at most 1/4th of the people there in HS. And thats even if its 1/4th, probably would be a lot less.
Most melee players are 18+

 

[omgwtfToph]

if you want my take on this as someone living in japan:

it's completely different over here. ever heard of a Fox main named Masashi? of course you have. masashi is also known as Tama, probably the 2nd or 3rd best May player in the world (GGXX) and is also incredibly good at blazblue. also, i spent the weekend at a peach player named D2's house with Tani, the best japanese player. when i woke up at 8 in the morning, Tani and D2 were playing fate: unlimited codes. smashers over here play a lot of other games, and there's no disrespect between fighting games. there isn't even disrespect between melee and brawl, really. all the melee players hang out with all the brawl players, and vice versa. you wanna know ALL IT IS?

most american gamers are not very good, and most american gamers are pretty childish. most of the capcom series fans you see on the internet that hate on smash? newsflash: they hate on EVERYTHING. marvel, vs series, airdashers. and marvel players hate on sf, and sf4 players hate on 3s and vice versa. fighting game players are some of the most childish people on the internet, and most of them aren't very good. the good players are usually pretty okay with other fighting games.

i went out to dinner in seattle with the sf4 community and we had a good talk about melee, brawl and sf4. turns out people who actually go to tournaments, and are actually good at their respective game, have worthwhile things to say. who knew

so yeah uhhhh the next time you see someone post some stupid **** on the internet about why a game [that isn't brawl] sucks, don't get upset about it, and realize that person went and posted a bunch of dumb comments about daigo umehara on youtube the very same day


anyway, people generally stick to their franchise. there are a few of these: street fighter (includes cvs), marvel, airdasher (read: anime fighter), smash. that's why you see SOME overlap between various street fighter games, SOME overlap between melee and brawl, SOME overlap between like, blazblue players and melty players. etc. same reason melty blood showed up at evo. because all the airdasher fans pooled their votes for it.

people are generally gonna stick to their franchise unless there's a very popular or big movement going on. it takes a lot of hype to get people to cross franchise boundaries, and the simple fact of the matter is, most popular fighting games are PRETTY GOOD GAMES, so most people don't have a reason to switch. like, if I was HELLA ****ing good at sf4, i would just keep playing that, cuz sf4 is a good game lol.

 

[gghhh3]

if you want my take on this as someone living in japan:

it's completely different over here. ever heard of a Fox main named Masashi? of course you have. masashi is also known as Tama, probably the 2nd or 3rd best May player in the world (GGXX) and is also incredibly good at blazblue. also, i spent the weekend at a peach player named D2's house with Tani, the best japanese player. when i woke up at 8 in the morning, Tani and D2 were playing fate: unlimited codes. smashers over here play a lot of other games, and there's no disrespect between fighting games. there isn't even disrespect between melee and brawl, really. all the melee players hang out with all the brawl players, and vice versa. you wanna know ALL IT IS?

most american gamers are not very good, and most american gamers are pretty childish. most of the capcom series fans you see on the internet that hate on smash? newsflash: they hate on EVERYTHING. marvel, vs series, airdashers. and marvel players hate on sf, and sf4 players hate on 3s and vice versa. fighting game players are some of the most childish people on the internet, and most of them aren't very good. the good players are usually pretty okay with other fighting games.

i went out to dinner in seattle with the sf4 community and we had a good talk about melee, brawl and sf4. turns out people who actually go to tournaments, and are actually good at their respective game, have worthwhile things to say. who knew

so yeah uhhhh the next time you see someone post some stupid **** on the internet about why a game [that isn't brawl] sucks, don't get upset about it, and realize that person went and posted a bunch of dumb comments about daigo umehara on youtube the very same day


anyway, people generally stick to their franchise. there are a few of these: street fighter (includes cvs), marvel, airdasher (read: anime fighter), smash. that's why you see SOME overlap between various street fighter games, SOME overlap between melee and brawl, SOME overlap between like, blazblue players and melty players. etc. same reason melty blood showed up at evo. because all the airdasher fans pooled their votes for it.

people are generally gonna stick to their franchise unless there's a very popular or big movement going on. it takes a lot of hype to get people to cross franchise boundaries, and the simple fact of the matter is, most popular fighting games are PRETTY GOOD GAMES, so most people don't have a reason to switch. like, if I was HELLA ****ing good at sf4, i would just keep playing that, cuz sf4 is a good game lol.

Such a good post. First part was wonderful, because also having lived in Japan I know how diverse they are with video games, its crazy. I could go to the arcade, play a guy at tekken, get whooped, then MB, get whooped, MvC2, get whooped, they don't discriminate, they just play what they enjoy. More people should follow that style.

And about people that actually go out and play the games not just post at home is so true, with exceptions of course, but its a rarer one. Most people respect people for what they play, because in the end we are all "Nerds" playing video games.