Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[Sykkamorre]

Just a quick question, wouldn't it be more accurate to use a higher number limit for Rating?

I mean, even sheik isn't perfect imo and basing other characters off her being top rated makes this a bit odd to me.

 

[NegaNixx]

Just a quick question, wouldn't it be more accurate to use a higher number limit for Rating?

I mean, even sheik isn't perfect imo and basing other characters off her being top rated makes this a bit odd to me.

I think it's less about perfect in a vacuum and perfect relative to the game. Shiek has the best neutral in the game and is thus what we have to call perfect, we'd group her with other exceptional neutral games and she'd be considered perfect in neutral and the others would be considered top.

 

[Gawain]

I do think this is the way to go we should keep the amounts in each rating even (5-6) in each that way we don't have an inflated mid tier and get a clear cut preliminary showing of who's better than who. We can adjust after we finish the preliminary round.
On Marth's Neutral, I believe it's a solid nominee for the 4.0 level neutral, Marth excels in using movement and passive aggression not to garuntee follow ups but to garuntee stage control, positional advantage is the most important thing, and Marth can weave in and out of his ideal footsies range (just beyond sword range) easily using, N-Air, F-Air, D-Tilt, B-Air, Extended Dash Trotting, and Short Hop Air Dodge, Marth pressures by pushing you out of his presence while Roy pressures by being in your presence. Roy tries to break your game, Marth tries to play his own, and Marth has many more options in comparison to Roy, putting him ahead of him in the rankings in my opinion.

3.5 Marth
3 Roy

Roy uses all those tools except bair,and has more and better options on the ground. Marth can't really do much vs shield in neutral. The worst you're gonna get is thrown for like 10 percent and reset to neutral. Your opponent is not afraid to put up shield when marth approaches or when he approaches marth. Not the case with Roy.

I'm not being biased, its just that Marth has a hard time threatening a shield when Roy doesn't. This is the most important aspect of neutral imo.

 

[NegaNixx]

Roy uses all those tools except bair,and has more and better options on the ground. Marth can't really do much vs shield in neutral. The worst you're gonna get is thrown for like 10 percent and reset to neutral. Your opponent is not afraid to put up shield when marth approaches or when he approaches marth. Not the case with Roy.

I'm not being biased, its just that Marth has a hard time threatening a shield when Roy doesn't. This is the most important aspect of neutral imo.

I see your point, but Marth doesn't have to reset to neutral, Marth sets up his traps or even better (for Marth) his offstage game, with his throws. Ledge and Landing traps are where Marth shines. His throws show this. Shield breaker is also a constant threat, people don't shield as often against Marth because it exist. Shielding on Ledge and platforms and ledges isn't as safe against Marth because of that move.

B-Air is also pretty important because it starts low and goes high as well as comboing into fair.

Marth doesn't combo exceptionally well but he plays king of the hill very well, which is what his neutral is about.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Here is the day 1 results for the NEUTRAL state!

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (Day 1 Results)

( ✪ = )
★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Explanation time~

The ranks will be going by a "performance" evaluation as opposed to a "by character" evaluation...for now. I'm still undecided on which one should ultimately be used for the future. As of right now though, I want to see how things play out before making further decisions on changing the rankings system. HOWEVER, there is one change I made that I would like to mention:

Is undoubtedly the Queen of Neutral right now. So much so that I added an extra visual cue to signify this. What does this symbol mean, you ask? Well, it means that even if characters are added to the ★★★★★ Star Rank along with Sheik, this system will still recognize Sheik as being the best character in Neutral. This will allow posters to help split up the ranks lower than ★★★★★, to see what other characters COULD be added to ★★★★★ with Sheik depending on how good their Neutral is. Even so, Sheik will still be considered a "rank" above them, though the ✪ symbol will still count as ★★★★★. I may change this over time though, depending on people's opinions about this.

Added to the 4.5 ranks due to high opinions of his Neutral. Main reasons being that Side B is a pain in the ***, and he's got some pretty good disjoints on his moves thanks to the Pikmin. Notably his aerials and smashes.

Dropped them because Sheik's Neutral was recognized as being surperior. However, as stated above, I may move any character from ★★★★☆ back up to ★★★★★ if their Neutral is considered a rank above the rest. For now, Sonic will stay. But Diddy might move back up again due to high opinions about his Bananas.

Stays in ★★★★ for now. Due to her Neutral being better than Yoshi's, while still worse than other characters in ★★★★☆ and above. Plus, now that the rankings have shifted a bit, it might change people's opinions on where to place her, and/or other characters.

Is ★★★★ for now, because of Waft and Chomp being really good intimidation tools. Bike shenanigans also allow him to blow past certain projectiles. Grab range, and range in general, might affect his rankings in the future though.

Only putting him in ★★★★ because that's where @ ~ Gheb ~ felt as though he would be, lol. I do know that his OoS Nair is pretty bonkers though, though I personally feel as though his Neutral could be a bit lower. But I'll wait on other opinions before I decide to do anything with him.

Rank ★★★☆ seems to be the Fire Emblem rank in regards to Neutral, lol. However, in regards to Marth and Roy in particular, I want people to determine if their Neutral games are different enough to separate them by rank. Same goes for Ike too I guess (and all other characters on the ranking system really), but for now, all three of them stay here until people figure out who is better than who.

Was dropped pretty noticeably due to a majority agreeance that his Neutral ranking was a bit inflated. For now, he is in the ★★★☆ Rank, but further opinions about him could potentially move him up or down a space.

Rank ★★★ and lower saw no changes. Since no new characters were discussed. So...the lower ranks in Neutral are looking a bit empty~


What I want to see right now, besides the characters that we have mentioned already, are the other characters that aren't even on the list yet. I also wish to see more posters in this topic, too...though I really have no control over that Still, having a broader range of both characters and poster opinions will help further increase the accuracy of this rankings system. So, although it is perfectly okay to talk about characters that were already mentioned, please help introduce new characters into the mix to help spice things up a bit. Thank you!

 

[Gawain]

I see your point, but Marth doesn't have to reset to neutral, Marth sets up his traps or even better (for Marth) his offstage game, with his throws. Ledge and Landing traps are where Marth shines. His throws show this. Shield breaker is also a constant threat, people don't shield as often against Marth because it exist. Shielding on Ledge and platforms and ledges isn't as safe against Marth because of that move.

B-Air is also pretty important because it starts low and goes high as well as comboing into fair.

Marth doesn't combo exceptionally well but he plays king of the hill very well, which is what his neutral is about.

I don't think shieldbreaker is all that great. It's pretty reactable. I will say that it's amazing from jab 1 and from the ledge, but that falls under his advantage imo.

I just can't see how Marth is going to keep a fastfaller from landing. He's just not fast enough. When I get faired by marth as Falcon it doesn't seem to matter much, unless I'm off stage (When Marth is in advantage and Falcon is in disadvantage). I'm never really afraid to just run at him and shield because I can always jump away from a raw shieldbreaker,and if he's in the air there is nothing he can do but retreat. If he's on the ground, he might jab my approach which is much more threatening. His neutral is good imo, 3.5 sounds about right. But I don't think it's better than Roys because Roy is much more versatile and dangerous in his approaches(maybe not by much though)

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Gawain once again showing how in love he is with easy mode confirms from grabs and how he refuses to make sweet love to positional advantage no matter how sexy she dresses for him.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't feel Ness's neutral is 4-star at all. He has no approach game, just a punish game. His rewards at the "just lost neutral" point are high but not apart of his neutral.

His advantage and disadvantage rate are why he's so good. (Aside from his recovery, his disadvantage state is very volatile and scary to challenge due to such a mobile, floaty air dodge and powerful options out of it)

He doesn't have the mobility or option to be very good in neutral. He's like luigi, very few neutral options but gets by with what he has and their absurd advantage rate.

 

[LightLV]

@ Gawain once again showing how in love he is with easy mode confirms from grabs and how he refuses to make sweet love to positional advantage no matter how sexy she dresses for him.

hes playing falcon doe

I don't think shieldbreaker is all that great. It's pretty reactable. I will say that it's amazing from jab 1 and from the ledge, but that falls under his advantage imo.

I just can't see how Marth is going to keep a fastfaller from landing. He's just not fast enough. When I get faired by marth as Falcon it doesn't seem to matter much, unless I'm off stage (When Marth is in advantage and Falcon is in disadvantage). I'm never really afraid to just run at him and shield because I can always jump away from a raw shieldbreaker,and if he's in the air there is nothing he can do but retreat. If he's on the ground, he might jab my approach which is much more threatening. His neutral is good imo, 3.5 sounds about right. But I don't think it's better than Roys because Roy is much more versatile and dangerous in his approaches(maybe not by much though)

I think Roy's speed, and the fact his mechanic is a bit easier to take advantage of is an advantage over marth. I'm quite fond of that dagger jab too.

Shield Breaker...In theory it should be pretty amazing, but the way shielding works in Smash 4, it just rarely ever feels worth throwing out with the intention of actually breaking a shield. It's so common to see it Perfect shielded off panic reaction alone (considering you DID read a shield and they don't outright dodge it) and it has pretty unspectacular properties on-hit as well.

Actually getting hit by the move is just about never as scary as blocking it, and it's still unsafe on Pshield. Iv'e had people in sticky situations in doubles just opt to attempt a dodge or take the hit instead of risk shieldbreak. Sometimes i'd rather have the vertical arced, high-active version from Melee.

 

[Gawain]

@ Gawain once again showing how in love he is with easy mode confirms from grabs and how he refuses to make sweet love to positional advantage no matter how sexy she dresses for him.

Don't pretend easy mode confirms aren't a defining part of the meta

Regardless of opinion, having a dangerous grab is something that almost all the top tiers have in common. All except for RnL. And it's not like you forfeit positional advantage to get a throw followup. Bah humbug.

 

[LightLV]

Also helps when you can grab someone in the middle of the stage with a dash grab from the edge of the stage in, like, 2 frames.

And then slide them to the edge to subject them to your stupid stuff

 

[Sykkamorre]

Gunner - Small & thin. I'll be assuming what seems to be the optimal build, at least in my opinion. (i'll be assuming the use of two separate side specials for this, due to the extreme changes that happen and rate separately for them.)

Neutral (missile side B): 3.5/4 - Gunner's neutral is rather good. Primarily due to fair, nades and the newly buffed missiles.
Fair and 'nades are fantastic at keeping the opponent at the distances gunner wants them at for neutral, with a good usmash to catch jump-ins as people attempt to avoid the barrage of projectiles. The missiles are good for forcing shield or jumps, each of which allows more zoning or grabs. Great mobility with B-reverses and momentum shenanigans using fair, like the pseudo-wavedash for fast approach with moves like utilt. Bomb drop is also handy for stopping grounded approaches. Good OoS with cannon uppercut that kills well as well as a useful spike with a decent hitbox.

(with flame pillar): 3.5 - similar to above, but sacrificing shield forcing for an anti rushdown tool.

Remade for just neutral.

 

[DunnoBro]

Regardless of opinion, having a dangerous grab is something that almost all the top tiers have in common. All except for RnL.

Fox too.

Also in general, the best positional advantage started as/could be a combo and just barely isn't after some point. Because it expedites the conditioning process.

 

[Gawain]

Fox too.

Also in general, the best positional advantage started as/could be a combo and just barely isn't after some point. Because it expedites the conditioning process.

By top tiers I was more referring to the top 5. I'm pretty sure Fox isn't top 5 unless I'm really out of the loop.

I should clarify what I meant. When I forward throw someone and then nair them or DB them, they're now (probably) offstage, or at the least they're in the air above me. This is virtually the same end result as Marth forward throwing someone, the only difference is I've done more damage. Yeah there are differences in angle and whatever, but the point is you still have them at a disadvantage. Same thing with Sheik throwing you and then fairing you across the stage. Or Captain Falcon and his up airs from throws. You still have a significant positional advantage after comboing someone, that's part of the point of having a good combo ender. Kind of how like in UNIEL or Guilty Gear you try to end your combo in a hard knockdown. The absence of throw followups is not really better in any way, unless your throw is so strong that it kills them, like Ness.

 

[DunnoBro]

By top tiers I was more referring to the top 5. I'm pretty sure Fox isn't top 5 unless I'm really out of the loop.

Sorry, fox is kind of on the fine line between top and high tier for a lot of people.

After him and rosalina though, you gotta go pretty far down the list before you see more chars with little reward off grab in the viable pool.

Also, even rosalina has good anti-grab mechanics of her own. Fox also has superb landing coverage and a bunch of (pseudo?)safe-on-shield kill set-ups.

Unless there's an extra extreme variable at play, it doesn't seem like characters can be good without a good throw game. Wario, Pacman, Ryu, these characters have the extremes to overcome this weakness. But I don't see fairly tame characters like Marth, Yoshi, and Greninja quite getting up to snuff.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's throw game is good, just not super amazing. He has combos and kill setups out of them, plus throws place the opponent in disadvantage at which point he can make full use of his great advantage.

He's just not super-reliant on his grabs to do stuff, they still get things done for him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not being biased, its just that Marth has a hard time threatening a shield when Roy doesn't.

I think you got that the wrong way round. Marth is the one who can actually threaten shields, against Roy you can stand in your shield for days with no threat of stuff happening to you.

Added to the 4.5 ranks due to high opinions of his Neutral. Main reasons being that Side B is a pain in the ***, and he's got some pretty good disjoints on his moves thanks to the Pikmin. Notably his aerials and smashes.

[...]

Is ★★★★ for now, because of Waft and Chomp being really good intimidation tools. Bike shenanigans also allow him to blow past certain projectiles. Grab range, and range in general, might affect his rankings in the future though.

[...]

Only putting him in ★★★★ because that's where @ ~ Gheb ~ felt as though he would be, lol. I do know that his OoS Nair is pretty bonkers though, though I personally feel as though his Neutral could be a bit lower. But I'll wait on other opinions before I decide to do anything with him.

Rank ★★★☆ seems to be the Fire Emblem rank in regards to Neutral, lol. However, in regards to Marth and Roy in particular, I want people to determine if their Neutral games are different enough to separate them by rank. Same goes for Ike too I guess (and all other characters on the ranking system really), but for now, all three of them stay here until people figure out who is better than who.

Olimar is too high at 4.5 tbh. He does have a good neutral but it doesn't rank alongside the top tiers. Wario being 4 in neutral Im not too sure about either. Maybe 4, maybe 3.5 .... I'm OK with the explanation of ness' neutral game by @ DunnoBro ... Roy may actually only be a 3 in neutral but idk. I have a relatively low opinion of the character compared to like everybody else -.-

By top tiers I was more referring to the top 5. I'm pretty sure Fox isn't top 5 unless I'm really out of the loop.

Actually, there's quite a lot of people who have Fox in their top 5 including people like dabuz and ESAM.

Edit: Yoshi's neutral should also be 4 tbh.

 

[Pazx]

Also, even rosalina has good anti-grab mechanics of her own. Fox also has superb landing coverage and a bunch of (pseudo?)safe-on-shield kill set-ups.

Safe on shield anything?

Honestly Fox (who is almost certainly top tier)'s neutral is only as good as it is (aside from speed and general mobility) because people aren't afraid to hold shield against him, thus giving him grabs and positional advantage/small damage for free. I'd suggest lowering it, as I don't think he's Diddy-level.

Agreeing with Ness having meh neutral.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah Greninja doesn't belong in the same category as Marth and Yoshi with his throw game. His buffed Dthrow true combos at low percent into jab and on some characters Dtilt, both of which lead to further combos and mixups. It's like a mini-Mario Dthrow now lol. Uthrow true combos into Uair regardless of DI until mid percents, then becomes a 50/50 against airdodges which Greninja can punish hard with Usmash, Dair or Uair spike. He also has a 50/50 kill setup with Dthrow Fair at high percent and Uthrow is probably a top 10 kill throw (only Mewtwo, Lucas, Charizard, ROB, blue Pikmin Olimar and deep breathing Wii Fit have stronger Uthrows off the top of my head, Ness' Bthrow is obviously better, but after that Greninja and Link are joint 8th for kill throws).

Marth only gets Dthrow Uair at low percent and Dthrow Up B which isn't safe on hit until high percent. His Uthrow kills later too. His throws are good for positional advantage but Greninja's offer the same thing and have less ending lag. And we all know about Yoshi's poor throw game. So yeah, Greninja may not have a braindead hoo hah but his throw game is pretty good, much better than those two. I'd say it's above average.

Not to mention I would argue his mobility + projectile combination is as much of an "extreme" as anything that at least Pac-Man has but that's another discussion.

EDIT: To keep this fully on topic I agree with Olimar being too high at 4.5. He generally struggles in neutral against characters with reflectors and safe moves to remove Pikmin. He also doesn't like characters with good mobility and has trouble with certain enemy projectiles. His neutral is good, don't get me wrong, it's just simply not as good as the others in the 4.5 group. I could see Olimar at 4 or 3.5.

 

[Sykkamorre]

GANONDORF get's about a 2/2.5 I neutral.

I would give him a lower score if not for a few little things, mostly usmash.
Usmash for those not in the know is amazing. Iirc, it's the fastest overall smash attack in the game with its ridiculous IASA frames, completely safe on shield, kills early AND is disjointed. Combine this with his great range on dtilt and versatility of uair and you can see why people don't want to let him dictate the spacing.
Another point of interest is his grabs. Yes, we all know about his tiny Trex arms but his reward on grab is weird. He doesn't get any combo's past low percent's, but the damage alone on fthrow and uthrow almost makes up for it. But what they do best is reset neutral or put the opponent in an unfortunate position. The two places that noone wants to be against ganon is at dtilt/DA range on the ground, and directly above him, which fthrow and uthrow/Dthrow do respectively.

However, that said he still suffers from speed in general, very few combos (loads of strings, but eh.) and few answers to strong zoning games (NOT YOU ROB PLAYERS, more like MM or pacman, or even doc's fast pills).

But then you have the unquantifiable aspect of mindgames. Any decent player knows the insane damage output and techchases that ganon can pull out from even the slightest spacing error or miscalculation on a trade, and the mental impact of any of these thing happening is not to be Ignored.

But yeah, that's about all I have. Everyone knows the downsides already.

 

[NegaNixx]

I definitely agree with Greninja being high in the rankings for neutral. 4 stars sounds good I can even see him at 4.5 stars though probably at the bottom of that group.

Amazing Mobility, combined with a good projectile and good combo starting pokes in D-Tilt, or anti air U-Tilt. D-Throw 50/50's U-Throw combos, a kill throw, counter shenanigans, spacing F-Tilt, Nair, Bair. I'm not proficient with Greninja but he seems to have all the tools to have a stellar neutral game. Definitely above Marth. I'd put him in the same conversation with Fox/ZSS easily.

 

[DunnoBro]

Safe on shield anything?

Aren't dair, nair, dash attack, and phantasm safe on shield in specific (but consistent) situations?

GANONDORF get's about a 2/2.5 I neutral.

I would give him a lower score if not for a few little things, mostly usmash.
Usmash for those not in the know is amazing. Iirc, it's the fastest overall smash attack in the game with its ridiculous IASA frames, completely safe on shield, kills early AND is disjointed. Combine this with his great range on dtilt and versatility of uair and you can see why people don't want to let him dictate the spacing.

Hmm, I don't think usmash contributes to his neutral as much as say dtilt/choke. Usmash doesn't have the coverage nor ganon the mobility for it to be a consistent neutral option. It's just a good roll/spotdodge punish/platform pressure.

I'm a bit hesitant to say ganon's neutral is worse than 2 or maybe even the worst, but I can't think of any characters with a worse neutral.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Aren't dair, nair, dash attack, and phantasm safe on shield in specific (but consistent) situations?

Yes, they kind of are.

Bair is his safest move though.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Aren't dair, nair, dash attack, and phantasm safe on shield in specific (but consistent) situations?



Hmm, I don't think usmash contributes to his neutral as much as say dtilt/choke. Usmash doesn't have the coverage nor ganon the mobility for it to be a consistent neutral option. It's just a good roll/spotdodge punish/platform pressure.

I'm a bit hesitant to say ganon's neutral is worse than 2 or maybe even the worst, but I can't think of any characters with a worse neutral.

Usmash definitely contributes. A lot of dorf's happily throw it out at decent distances due to how safe it is. Often as a rush deterrent or to make an opponent back off to dtilt range. Most good dorf's use it in neutral a decent amount. But yes, dtilt and choke are more important.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yes, they kind of are.

Bair is his safest move though.

Ah, was thinking strictly kill set-ups but a raw kill move works too lol.

Usmash definitely contributes. A lot of dorf's happily throw it out at decent distances due to how safe it is. Often as a rush deterrent or to make an opponent back off to dtilt range. Most good dorf's use it in neutral a decent amount. But yes, dtilt and choke are more important.

Hmm, forgot about the applications of just throwing it out to bait for stuff.
But I still don't know if his neutral is 2/2.5...

His neutral is definitely workable, but neutrals in sm4sh are just better than in other smashes I feel. (Or rather not invalidated by lasers/chaingrabs)
Who has less options than him? Palutena? (Equally bad grab, meh mobility, but does have approach forcing options due to projectile + reflector)

 

[Sykkamorre]

Ah, was thinking strictly kill set-ups but a raw kill move works too lol.



Hmm, forgot about the applications of just throwing it out to bait for stuff.
But I still don't know if his neutral is 2/2.5...

His neutral is definitely workable, but neutrals in sm4sh are just better than in other smashes I feel. (Or rather not invalidated by lasers/chaingrabs)
Who has less options than him? Palutena? (Equally bad grab, meh mobility, but does have approach forcing options due to projectile + reflector)

maybe 2.5 is pushing it, but factoring in fear and mindgames makes it swing a bit imo. Eg. Before someone got punished for something hard gives a 1.5/2 and after something like that 2/2.5.

 

[DunnoBro]

maybe 2.5 is pushing it, but factoring in fear and mindgames makes it swing a bit imo. Eg. Before someone got punished for something hard gives a 1.5/2 and after something like that 2/2.5.

I think "hard punishes" factor more under "advantage" or more specifically "reward"

Ganon's no longer playing the neutral when he has his boot up someone's ass.

 

[Swoops]

Ah, was thinking strictly kill set-ups but a raw kill move works too lol.



Hmm, forgot about the applications of just throwing it out to bait for stuff.
But I still don't know if his neutral is 2/2.5...

His neutral is definitely workable, but neutrals in sm4sh are just better than in other smashes I feel. (Or rather not invalidated by lasers/chaingrabs)
Who has less options than him? Palutena? (Equally bad grab, meh mobility, but does have approach forcing options due to projectile + reflector)

Ganon's neutral to me is probably 1.5/2. I think a lot of people don't really factor in reward when discussing Ganon's attributes. As far as comparable or worse characters in Neutral:

Comparable
Bowser
Metaknight
___
Palutena
Zelda
Jigglypuff

Worse
Mewtwo
Samus

Not really a concrete list so don't take my word as gospel lol. Now that I'm looking at it Bowser and MK probably fall into the "definitely better" category, and maybe one or two falling under the "worse" category.

I guess I'm thinking in terms of Ganon's most oppressive match up, Shiek. Those characters I listed often have tools that put them at equal risk to a dominant neutral as Ganondorf, but gain very little comparatively.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I think "hard punishes" factor more under "advantage" or more specifically "reward"

Ganon's no longer playing the neutral when he has his boot up someone's ***.

Not during the actual punish, but once neutral was back in play. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hey my post was quoted and came of some use! Might as well chime in now. Yeah I'd give Doc's neutral about a 3/5. It's not bad by any means but it's inferior to Mario's more flexible neutral by a decent margin. It all stems around a lack of good projectile to cover his pretty poor mobility as I said. If he ever does get a good default pill (proper IASA, whatever, IDK) then I would probably put it on the level of Mario's if not a bit better because of the angle the pill goes at. It's quite disruptive, if you look at its movement alone.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sorry, fox is kind of on the fine line between top and high tier for a lot of people.

After him and rosalina though, you gotta go pretty far down the list before you see more chars with little reward off grab in the viable pool.

Also, even rosalina has good anti-grab mechanics of her own. Fox also has superb landing coverage and a bunch of (pseudo?)safe-on-shield kill set-ups.

Unless there's an extra extreme variable at play, it doesn't seem like characters can be good without a good throw game. Wario, Pacman, Ryu, these characters have the extremes to overcome this weakness. But I don't see fairly tame characters like Marth, Yoshi, and Greninja quite getting up to snuff.

lolwut

But no seriously..my brain is befuddled.

 

[DunnoBro]

lolwut

But no seriously..my brain is befuddled.

I'll call those characters good when they accomplish anything, until then the data supports my thesis that you need to pressure/punish shields hard to be a good character in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Greninja thoooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[DunnoBro]

Greninja thoooooooooooooooooooooo

Oh right, I was corrected about his buffed grab game earlier. Not sure how good he is myself, but it does make sense why people are saying he's so much better now. I mostly only knew about the shuriken buff.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja could always do stuff with Up-Throw, D-Throw stuff is new but very appreciated, before it could be used as a trap move by baiting a reaction and punishing, but now we actually get guaranteed stuff out of it and it also got better at being a trap move since we can act out of it sooner.

F-Throw doesn't have much to it, but if you can send someone offstage with it you can try shooting a shuriken at them and I dunno if that's guaranteed or not, might be at certain percents. Either way F-Throw helps him set up edgeguards, though it doesn't do much knockback.

B-Throw is basically just to deal damage (it deals 8% while all others throws do 5%) or set up edgeguards in case you're facing away from the ledge.

Up-Throw and D-Throw both combo into stuff at different percents and they can lead to traps. D-Throw is better for kill setups and Up-Throw is good for juggling, plus it also has the benefit of being able to outright kill without needing a follow-up

His grab game was always at the very least above average, especially with his dash grab, it just got better now, but it's still nothing amazing. That's pretty much all the reason I didn't give Greninja a five star advantaged state in my analysis, his throws are good and he has the means of getting the grab, but he doesn't get nearly as much reward from them as characters like Sheik, ZSS and Luigi.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Hoo boy, lots of Marth vs Roy stuff to cover, lol

I strongly disagree that Marth has a better neutral. Autocancels aren't everything and for the most part they're just for making whiffed things safe, which isn't what Roy does. Roy controls space by being in it, not necessarily by putting hitboxes out all the time. Marths neutral is really just jab 1 and spaced aerials. His grab game isn't that threatening and he's not fast enough to make landing grabs super easy. Roy pretty much always does around 20+ off of his confirms; nair, jab, grab, and sometimes dtilt and fair. He also has kill setups from grab and jab (though they are admittedly less effective vs floaty and high air speed characters). Marth is basically only guaranteed a kill off a sour jab or a very high percent throw. Because of this, opponents have to be more respectful of Roy in neutral. Having threatening moves in neutral is like half the battle. The more dangerous your safe confirms and especially your grabs, the better your neutral.

I am not seeing how Roy isnt at least close to being as good as ZSS or Greninja in this regard.

Indeed, Autocancels aren't everything. However, Marth does have one other thing that Roy doesn't: Short Hop Air Dodge approach/retreat options.

Marth's Neutral is slightly better IMO not because of how potent it can convert into damage off of one combo (which goes into the Advantage state territory and what you seem to be describing primarily), but because he has more options to help him be slippery and stay out of the opponent's grasp. Where-as Roy is a bit more limited and committed to what he does after a short-hop, Marth has a good number of backup plans when he does this.

Marth can throw out an aerial then land, throw out Fair or Bair then jump, tomohawk into a grab (not as potent as Roy but still an option), airdodge into an aerial, airdodge into a jump, airdodge into a tomohawk grab, and has counter.

Roy can throw out an aerial then land (no AC opportunities though), throw out Fair and jump/use a special, tomohawk into a grab, and has counter. He can't even do an empty SH Airdodge because he suffers landing lag from it.

Plus, in regards to ground game, Marth has Fsmash. It comes out at frame 10 (fastest in the game tied with Samus and others) and is ~4-5 frames faster than Roy's Fsmash, kills REALLY early when tippered (earlier than Roy's Fsmash), and has more "range" than Roy's Fsmash when comparing their sweetspots alone. So although it requires a read and good spacing, it is something that he can get more consistantly than Roy, and a threat that an opponent always has to be aware of.

3.5 Marth
3 Roy

Those numbers seem about right IMO~

Roy uses all those tools except bair,and has more and better options on the ground. Marth can't really do much vs shield in neutral. The worst you're gonna get is thrown for like 10 percent and reset to neutral. Your opponent is not afraid to put up shield when marth approaches or when he approaches marth. Not the case with Roy.

I'm not being biased, its just that Marth has a hard time threatening a shield when Roy doesn't. This is the most important aspect of neutral imo.

Sometimes, the best option against shield is not really doing anything at all though. Because if they roll towards you, they get punished. Roll away from you, they lose stage control. Stay in shield, grab or shieldbreaker or simply wait them out.

And even if Marth can only do ~10+ damage and reset the pace of the match to Neutal, stage positioning also applies here as well. Depending on how much the opponent flies back, that is also lost stage control as well.

The neat thing about Smash Bros is that it isn't like most traditional fighters. Stage control is something that should always be taken into consideration as well, as it is a passive "health bar" that players share which can easily determine who is in the Advantage and who is in the Disadvantage. Depending on their positions and situations, loss of stage control can easily mean the loss of a stock. Especially against characters that have much more tools to help capitalize upon this.

Also seeing as how the Viability Survey topic has also been going over Marth vs Roy recently...

Also a point on S4 Roy...
He really doesn't have any form of weaving, although his initial walk speed is actually quite potent.
Boom, like a rocket, but I struggle hard to see this really giving him an edge in overall capabilities to him. Our aerials are all safer and more expansive in utility/usages, I'd love to hear otherwise but I can't fathom Roy being that much better on the ground to Marth in attacks at all either. Anecdotally I'm finding Marth's down tilt a significantly more reliable poke than Roy's, better anti air options from his faster/larger tilts, and aerial out of shield options to boot.

Sums up my thoughts to a decent degree when comparing their Neutral.

I don't feel Ness's neutral is 4-star at all. He has no approach game, just a punish game. His rewards at the "just lost neutral" point are high but not apart of his neutral.

His advantage and disadvantage rate are why he's so good. (Aside from his recovery, his disadvantage state is very volatile and scary to challenge due to such a mobile, floaty air dodge and powerful options out of it)

He doesn't have the mobility or option to be very good in neutral. He's like luigi, very few neutral options but gets by with what he has and their absurd advantage rate.

I completely agree with this I too feel as though ★★★★ is too high for him. And since a lot of people seem to agree, he will be dropping for sure sometime soon.

Olimar is too high at 4.5 tbh. He does have a good neutral but it doesn't rank alongside the top tiers. Wario being 4 in neutral Im not too sure about either. Maybe 4, maybe 3.5 .... I'm OK with the explanation of ness' neutral game by @ DunnoBro ... Roy may actually only be a 3 in neutral but idk. I have a relatively low opinion of the character compared to like everybody else -.-

Edit: Yoshi's neutral should also be 4 tbh.

Can you give more detailed explanations for your opinions on these characters? Specifically Olimar, Wario, and Yoshi. Not saying that they are wrong or anything, I'm just interested in why you feel as though they should be in those places, lol (and to have more data for the thread)

EDIT: To keep this fully on topic I agree with Olimar being too high at 4.5. He generally struggles in neutral against characters with reflectors and safe moves to remove Pikmin. He also doesn't like characters with good mobility and has trouble with certain enemy projectiles. His neutral is good, don't get me wrong, it's just simply not as good as the others in the 4.5 group. I could see Olimar at 4 or 3.5.

Ah okay. This helps a little~



Still waiting for more opinions on these characters before I make further changes to the rankings

Not on the list:

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Roy and Marth both deserve a 3.5 maybe even 4.5

They both can do alot of cool **** and can be very safe.

Marth and Roy weave the same though. There is one vid of NEO playing Roy and Lucina. The ground movement is unparalled. Max potential Marth and Roy move like they are dancing.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Not on the list:

I'm a bit concerned that there are too many positive neutral games and not enough people willing to admit their main characters are average or even bad.
If you start with the premise that this fighting game is balanced in all three aspect (not necessarily true) then there should be as a statistical normal distribution
68% of the cast as "Average". 55 characters total means 37 should be average. 15 should be distributed in the top or bottom and only 3 should be extremely low or high.
I still rate ☆ in neutral. For the reasons stated in the initial page of this thread. In terms of the basic play elements of the game, throwing out hitboxes, rolling, grabs, shield grab, projectiles, etc... she definitely is the worst.
I also personally believe Rosa's neutral is better than Sheik's. Shiek is better overall because of her greater advantage and disadvantage states.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I'm a bit concerned that there are too many positive neutral games and not enough people willing to admit their main characters are average or even bad.
If you start with the premise that this fighting game is balanced in all three aspect (not necessarily true) then there should be as a statistical normal distribution
68% of the cast as "Average". 55 characters total means 37 should be average. 15 should be distributed in the top or bottom and only 3 should be extremely low or high.
I still rate ☆ in neutral. For the reasons stated in the initial page of this thread. In terms of the basic play elements of the game, throwing out hitboxes, rolling, grabs, shield grab, projectiles, etc... she definitely is the worst.
I also personally believe Rosa's neutral is better than Sheik's. Shiek is better overall because of her greater advantage and disadvantage states.

Isn't this because unlike a lot of fighting games, noone is really 'terrible'? Everyone apart from a select few are good, but everyone above them is just better xD

 

[san.]

If I know which character is considered middle of the road of that trait, I'd know what to compare it to.