Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[ItsRainingGravy]

I'm so mad at this.

Whatever its your thread you can do what you want...

I'm not looking for anyone to debate 'Mewtwo is bad in neutral because hes low tier'

If your conclusion is that DDD has better tools to deal with that scenario... then I'll quietly leave this thread forever.

The classic one-size-fits-all response.

My claim remains. If people believe that a DDD has better options to deal with hard-camping enemies in neutral than Mewtwo, then I am done here. Its called respectfully disagreeing, not being mad or attacking.

Same for @ ItsRainingGravy my post isn't 'taking out personal grievances', I literally asked two questions. Questions that I believe if unable to be answered, defeat the entire purpose of this thread. But you did answer it, so nothings wrong?

I want this thread to be different to how traditional tiers are voted on in smash bros where its simply public opinion averaged out since you have to remember that ratings are all relative to the cast. It seems like many opinions in this thread were considering characters in a vacuum, or simply comparing them to Sheik. Mewtwo might have a bad neutral when compared to fox but not every character in the game is fast and running around with a reflector. Considering how many characters in this game employ a 'camping/zoning' playstyle, having a projectile that eats through almost everything in the game and a reflector already makes a massive difference.

When you take all the opinions and average them out and you find that Ike is in the same tier as Mario (again, packing a projectile and a reflector) do you take a step back and think 'hey... this isnt right, someone needs to move, one was either voted too high or too low'?

I don't personally see how marth/ike/lucina/roy deserve to be that high when they have no way to stop reliably projectiles aimed at their landing or approaches and their approaches are highly committal. I would have imagined having a projectile, reflector or safe approach are the 3 things that give a huge boost in neutral and not having those puts you at a massive disadvantage to characters that have 1, 2 or all of those things.

First of all, when you make comments such as the above, they come off as being very provocative in nature. Stuff like "I'm so mad at this", "Whatever its your thread you can do what you want...", "If your conclusion is...then I'll quietly leave this thread for forever", "then I am done here", and the like, it sounds like you are trying to pick a fight with people.

A further example is "I literally asked two questions", which gives the implication that you are calling my intelligence into question. This too feels like aggressive behavior on your part. Which clearly contradicts your statement of "respectfully disagreeing/not being mad or attacking".

You want things from this thread, but the few posts that you have made have done little outside of calling other people's posts into question. Mine, and @ ぱみゅ . Outside of that, you haven't really contributed much to this thread. Additionally, when you have "contributed", you have done so in an unnecessarily aggressive mannerism. Which is counter-intuitive to this thread for a few reasons. The first reason being that things like this require time and patience. The second reason is that this is a group effort.

When you make posts like what you have done, not only are you showing a lack of patience, but you are also only here for the things that you want. And, when you don't get the things that you want (which apparently has already happened), you make sure to show a lot of contempt in retaliation by trying to make examples out of people. And that is not a very proper manner of conducting yourself. Not just for an online forum, but for life in general.

And in regards to your worries to the direction this thread is taking, there are other methods for achieving your desired goals. Instead of making posts with passive aggressive jabs at other members, focus on the characters instead. Such as "I feel as though Mewtwo should be higher, because...". If you do this, you will not only achieve your goals more efficiently, but you will also obtain more respect from other people. Especially if you don't do things like calling their intelligence into question. Simply put, just remove the mentions of other people from your posts, since it isn't necessary and just causes drama.

Over time, as I have stated before, the lists will become more and more accurate when more opinions and more data arrive. But it's going to take time, and patience before we achieve that. Because, even as unbiased as people try to make things out to be, there is always going to be some level of bias most anywhere you go in life. After all, people are prone to forget things, over/under hype things, and make mistakes. That is why other people serve as a sort of "checks and balances" sort of system, to help even things out and prevent stuff (such as data) from getting out of hand. Likewise, this topic was built using a similar premise. If tier lists aren't doing nearly enough to cut it, why not have a topic that focuses on the Neutral/Advantage/Disadvantage states as a form of checks and balances to help explain why characters are as good as they are, rather than simply just stating it. I thought it was a great idea for its own topic, so here we are.

Moving off of that small tangent though, just relax. You are trying to rush, and force things to happen too much. It doesn't help things move along faster. Rather, it just creates friction, and tension between people. And I will politely ask you to try to conduct yourself in a more dignified manner. Thank you in advance

This will be my last post in regards to this subject, as it is off-topic.

Lastly, your opinions about Mewtwo and other characters will still be taken into consideration. And I appreciate your thoughts about them.

---

I feel like Ness is WAY too low now. Dropping to 3.5, 3 or maybe 2.5 sure, but his neutral is not SO bad. 1.5 is really low. He'd be invalidated at the neutral level by the 5, 4.5 and maybe even 4 stars if his neutral was really that bad.

I'm in agreement that Browny's response was a tad aggressive but I do agree that Mewtwo's neutral is not that bad. He has a reflector, a great projectile, good frame data on his jab and grab, some fast aerials and good range. He's let down by bad hitboxes, some pretty slow attacks and other stuff like his bad double jump, floatiness and poor weight/hurtbox, though some of that bleeds into his disadvantage state. Perhaps a 2 or 2.5 star rating for his neutral?

I don't think Greninja needs to be moved, I just think he's useful to discuss as a 4 star benchmark. Rosie and Diddy seem fine too but it depends how we play things with Sheik.

I did that on semi-purpose to get people to talk about him But also because, as a Ness player myself, I really don't think his Neutral is all that great. But at the same time, I don't exactly know where to place him. For the characters above him, I feel as though a good portion of them outclass Ness in terms of range and speed. However, what you said is still correct: It is a bit lower than it should be. Since, now that I look at it, Ness has more "safeness" to his moves than the Rank ★★ characters for sure. As for what Rank he is between 2.5, 3, or 3.5...I'm not entirely sure. Maybe not Rank ★★★☆, but probably Rank ★★☆ or ★★★. Either way, I will be bumping him up sometime soon. Until then, I would like to see more opinions about him~

Yeah, Mewtwo's not that bad. His frame data kind of is (frame 6 jab is still on the more sluggish side), but he is the only character in the game with both a chargeable projectile and a reflector in one package. He also really doesn't have any good OoS options either. I think Rank ★★ is good for now, but Rank ★★☆ isn't too much of a stretch either.

Greninja at Rank ★★★★ seems fine to me for now imo. Dash Grab, Shurikens, Ftilt, Jab, Utilt, top tier mobility specs, and his frame 13 Fsmash (one of the fastest in the game) makes him a potent threat in the Neutral. His lack of OoS options does suck, though. Rank ★★★☆ wouldn't be too bad for him either...no higher or lower than those two ranks, though.

Samus's neutral isn't good but it is better than Zelda, Jiggly, Ganon, G&W, etc. I would put it somewhere in the 1.5ish area. Maybe 2. The strong points of her neutral are definitely not fsmash and ftilt, they're zair, dash attack, up b OOS, and a very good SHAD with many ways to act out of it--mainly uair, which is a good aerial. This is enough to make her better in the neutral than the characters I mentioned earlier. Also good but not quite as good are bombs, missiles (still projectiles even if they aren't amazing. They still function very similarly to most projectiles as far as neutrals go), bair sweet spot (safe on shield and lots of shield damage), and dair (also safe on shield). Bair isn't a huge deal because it can be challenging to land on many characters.

Also we should discuss G&W. I feel like his neutral is awful, maybe half a star. Nothing good oos, a pretty bad grab, and very unsafe aerials. No good projectiles, can get camped very easily, and bad range. His dash attack is one of the only things going for him. This character would be good except for his neutral, which I think actually makes a case for being the worst.

Whoever does earn the title of worst neutral should get zero stars. Just a thought, somebody has to.

Good points about Samus Thank you! Not too sure about Zelda, but better than Jiggs and Ganon I can see.

As for G&W...yeah, his Neutral feels pretty bad. He can't even SHAD either. Not sure about it being the worst, but it definitely holds him back for sure.

I'll consider the "zero star" rating Only fair, since I pretty much labeled Sheik as being #1 in the category. But only because it was a mostly unanimous opinion about her performance in the category. If there isn't a unanimous opinion about there being a "worst" character in Neutral, then maybe/maybe not~

 

[ぱみゅ]

now, now, let's all play nice okay?
We're just trying to get into an agreement here on how would ratings look like, and any input is appreciated towards that, as each one of them are to be discussed towards a better representation of the list.

 

[bc1910]

@ ItsRainingGravy Ah, clever. I think waiting for more opinions about Ness is a good idea.

I had a bit of a brainfart on Mewtwo's jab and thought it was frame 4... With that in mind, I also think 2 stars is fine.

I already think there are a bunch of characters ranked at 4 star who Greninja has a better neutral game than so I'd have to hear a very good argument to move him down. His OoS game can be played around with his mobility and having a 3 frame jab honestly means it's not totally in the gutter like say, Link's, in terms of frame speed. Also he can deal with shield pressure pretty reliably by short hopping out, since he has a fast jump squat and high short hop (highest in the game I think) so if they went for a grab or any other attack, you can usually hit them with SHFF Nair which is a really hard punish and a kill confirm. It's also safe on whiff and, if spaced or used as a crossup, on block. It's kind of a ZSS situation where only a couple of characters truly unravel his neutral, those being Sheik and Fox. And even Fox can't shield pressure him that reliably because his frame data and range isn't quite as dumb as Sheik's.

 

[Shaya]

I agree that Mario's one of the better neutrals in this game. Don't let us all just be led by Gheb on things :3

@ san.
I didn't know Ike had a 10 frame dash to shield despite my time put into him, that's quite good. Should spam reverse wavebounces on the ground with him sometime (lol)

Anyway two things:
I would think that Falchion/Roy's jabs are better in neutral.. they're disjointed/longer range, 1? frame slower each (is Roy's 5?), and directly set up on hit. Ike's gives him damage but it doesn't necessarily set up out of it. Jab cancel exists, sure, but I think that's being overrated a little here, especially in safety... definitely okay for "advantage"... but in neutral I don't agree.

Weight being a consideration in neutral.... that's.... also something I'm skeptical of. It's a great feature of disadvantage, but Bowser's weight never helps against Sheik in neutral. It helps him reduce the impact of disadvantage. Being a more-read prone character is something you'd expect to be apart of their advantage rating overall as well. Is someone's weight really benefiting neutral enough to be a sizable factor? Is your ability to make more mistakes something that can fairly constitute neutral when it's not the "because they're so safe it doesn't matter" type of rhetoric?
I wouldn't necessarily agree with a high-ish neutral for Ike, but I would think he is more geared towards his advantage and disadvantage...

 

[warionumbah2]

His tilts are pretty good actually, Dtilt has good horizontal range (RIP Brawl's vertical range), and Ftilt isn't a huge commitment anymore (though still pretty significant), Fsmash is a nice baiting move, his rolls are all fast enough to bait movements, and then again, his Dash Attack and his grabs are pretty powerful.
Falcon has huge disjoints, but other than Bair, he isn't throwing a lot of moves either.
Their game plans are very similar, and even if one has slight advantages or benefits over the other I am not sure if either warrants even a .5 rating over the other.

I wouldn't call F-smash a baiting move, at this point anyone who plays competitively should know how Metaknights F-smash functions. Its exactly the same as brawl minus the range and transcendence. F-smash is a decent spacing tool against Luigi, Mario, Pikachu, Kirby, Doc and Metaknight himself. It also became slightly more safe on block in the recent patch. Walking and F-smashing is a strong micro spacing tools against the characters i listed, 3.5 sounds about right.


Neutral: ★★★☆
Advantage: ★★★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★★

Only characters that deserve ★★★★★ on their advantage are .

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Only characters that deserve ★★★★★ on their advantage are .

?

 

[warionumbah2]

Didn't know Luigi can end your stock off one conversion at fraudulent percents.

 

[Trifroze]

I wouldn't call F-smash a baiting move, at this point anyone who plays competitively should know how Metaknights F-smash functions. Its exactly the same as brawl minus the range and transcendence. F-smash is a decent spacing tool against Luigi, Mario, Pikachu, Kirby, Doc and Metaknight himself. It also became slightly more safe on block in the recent patch. Walking and F-smashing is a strong micro spacing tools against the characters i listed, 3.5 sounds about right.


Neutral: ★★★☆
Advantage: ★★★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★★

Only characters that deserve ★★★★★ on their advantage are .

Agree with MK's ratings. His disadvantage is good because of his lack of landing problems and his top level recovery options, but he lacks a quick option to break out of combos and dies early due to his weight.

Does Ryu have guaranteed low percent to death combos or setups that are relatively easy to get started? Would be genuinely interesting to see them if he does, as I don't think his damage or kill power alone should give him anything more than 4.

DK deserves a 5 because while he has to go all the way to 60-80% to get the kill, it doesn't take him more than 2 grabs or a grab and a couple stray hits to get there and it's very reliable once you get started. There's no DI to throw you off and no hitboxes that could connect badly or send them too far if you got started at the slightly wrong percent range. Although, does rage ruin ding dong completely or does it just make it kill earlier? Not necessarily max rage, let's say moderate one at 100%.

I have to say that Luigi doesn't get me wary in neutral the same way at all, and why should he really? Until we can prove dthrow to up b is a thing worth going for Luigi won't be killing anyone before the common kill percents, and his conversions don't do quite enough damage that he would get to that percent fast enough to be comparable to ZSS/MK/DK. Not to say that his advantage still isn't among the best. I'd drop him to 4.5, however there is a definite gap.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Didn't know Luigi can end your stock off one conversion at fraudulent percents.

As much as people treat luigi as some lite-Ice Climbers character, you would think that his rating would be at least 4.5, but forgive me for the mistake.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'd give Ryu's advantage a 4 or a 4.5, personally. Maybe the latter, it's just a low kill % away from being good.

I think what makes it a 4.5 in my mind is because his neutral transitions into his advantage so smoothly (off of any like, F3 poke or light normal), including his best kill move (which is true Heavy SRK), meaning that it's definitely a cut above a TON of characters in that regard.

 

[san.]

I agree that Mario's one of the better neutrals in this game. Don't let us all just be led by Gheb on things :3

@ san.
I didn't know Ike had a 10 frame dash to shield despite my time put into him, that's quite good. Should spam reverse wavebounces on the ground with him sometime (lol)

Anyway two things:
I would think that Falchion/Roy's jabs are better in neutral.. they're disjointed/longer range, 1? frame slower each (is Roy's 5?), and directly set up on hit. Ike's gives him damage but it doesn't necessarily set up out of it. Jab cancel exists, sure, but I think that's being overrated a little here, especially in safety... definitely okay for "advantage"... but in neutral I don't agree.

Here's my thought process on the jabs in neutral.

Marth:
Jab 1 hits on frame 5, cancels into jab2 at frame 18, otherwise it lasts for 28 total frames. It is around -13 to -17 on shield drop depending on how updated @LordWilliam1234 's data is (I believe he updated marth with the new hitlag values on shield).
Jab 2 hits on frame 3 and ends on frame 28. It's around -15 to -18 on shield drop

There is a bit of lag and punishment vs shield. Even if marth tries to jab2 as soon as possible, that's around -6 to -10 on shield drop. However, the reward is a bit decent. It's analogous to Ike's dtilt, while Marth uses the dtilt like how Ike wants to use his jab. It's only a little punishable but the reward allows for some nice possibilities.

I tried testing Marth's vertical reach on jab, and there's pretty much no hitbox on the top 1/3 of its visual reach, which is unfortunate as well.

Roy:
His hits on frame 5 with one hit, 22 total frames, and -7 to -9 on shield block. It's decent but has little mixup opportunity against defense unless fully spaced (not something you *need from a jab when tilts should be doing this). You punish if he jabbed too close on your shield and punish, same as any other tilt. Still, it's quite good when spaced, but so are the others and it would be nice to have something that provided a bit more pressure like more traditional jabs, especially when many jab2s have similar range or more. Still, there's decent reward.

Ike:
Jab1 hits on frame 4, cancels into jab2 at frame 11, otherwise it lasts for 23 total frames. It is -11 on shield drop.
Jab2 hits on frame 3, cancels into jab3 at frame 12, otherwise it lasts for 27 total frames. It is -16 on shield drop.
Jab3 hits on frame 5, lasts for 38 total frames, and is -25 on shield drop.

Ike gets increasingly punishable for each subsequent jab. jab1->jab2 is -2 on shield drop. Jab2->jab3 is -6 on shield drop. Unlike Roy and Marth's, Ike's jabs are more susceptible to shield grabs if the opponent inputs it as soon as possible. Only somewhat spaced attacks will prevent shield grabs.

If jab1 whiffs, he can bail out out dish out a 3-frame jab2 with range that gets close to his ftilt. If it hits shield, he has to mixup his jab2 uses and timing. If it hits, he can perform the full jab combo or use dtilt or grab as a mixup. Dtilt will hit medium-falling characters most of the time, with some others barely being able to double jump away (Still keeping them in a poor position). Depending on rage, on some fastfallers he can use jab to utilt as a mixup and it will hit (I was hit with this recently and I tried to escape out of jab1).

If Ike whiffs jab2, he can cancel into jab1 immediately, but there are a few areas that can be punished, especially if he doesn't cancel into jab1. If it hits, it can just lead into jab3. If it hits shield, it will be punished with quick attacks if it isn't spaced, otherwise many other attacks may be punished by jab3.

Jab3 is the last resort on the ground or the anti-air. The hitbox covers the whole swing, unlike Marth's jab.


Overall, it's pretty decent. It's good enough as a mixup to Ike's dtilt and jab->dtilt is fairly consistent from my experience. Marth and Roy already have great dtilts, so they would've benefited from the more traditional jabs since dtilt was already great at keeping distance. Ike's not going to use jab all that much in neutral as he did in Brawl, but appropriately depending on how close he is to the opponent. Frame 5 is also when you start matching some of the quicker characters' tilts. Each frame is very important.

Weight being a consideration in neutral.... that's.... also something I'm skeptical of. It's a great feature of disadvantage, but Bowser's weight never helps against Sheik in neutral. It helps him reduce the impact of disadvantage. Being a more-read prone character is something you'd expect to be apart of their advantage rating overall as well. Is someone's weight really benefiting neutral enough to be a sizable factor? Is your ability to make more mistakes something that can fairly constitute neutral when it's not the "because they're so safe it doesn't matter" type of rhetoric?
I wouldn't necessarily agree with a high-ish neutral for Ike, but I would think he is more geared towards his advantage and disadvantage...

AFAIK weight affects knockback growth and weight-dependent throws. I believe that comboability is mostly based on your character size and floatiness, while weight affects the % ranges they are likely to kill at. I think that's why Mewtwo is so easy to kill while Rosalina is a pain, since he's not actually as floaty as he seems with a large body.

From my understanding of weight in neutral, it affects the decision-making process for using certain moves and affects the reward of possible trades. Based on that definition, that can probably be applied to all 3 though lol. Even so, I'd hesitate to just put it at 3, the weight was a small factor in that regard. Jigglypuff's weight for instance heavily affects her neutral. Her attacks aren't really that punishable and even some of her ground attacks have decent cooldown. She just can't afford to get hit and her moveset lends itself to trades where she will likely lose the vast majority of the time since the % she put on the opponent isn't worth the % that the opponent put on her.

These buzzwords don't really transfer perfectly to smash and may not even be mutually exclusive to each other. Each kind of bleeds into the decision-making of the other.

I don't consider 3.5 highish when 4, 4.5, and 5 exist. There should be a good 15-20 characters at or above that level.

 

[warionumbah2]

Im thinking of Ryu's ability to Utilt lock fast fallers then True SRK, but that only works on fast fallers while MK and ZSS uair combo's/down smash to flip jump works on everyone.

4 or 4.5 sounds reasonable for him my bad.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Im thinking of Ryu's ability to Utilt lock fast fallers then True SRK, but that only works on fast fallers while MK and ZSS uair combo's/down smash to flip jump works on everyone.

4 or 4.5 sounds reasonable for him my bad.

The reason I say 4.5 is just how devastating his damage is + his ability to go STRAIGHT from neutral into advantage.

Super stellar character though, I definitely agree there. It's mostly MK and ZSS killing people earlier off of certain confirms + universal stuff that keeps him below them, IMO.

I find it fascinating just how much Ryu's neutral is tied DIRECTLY to his advantage. I mean, it is with most chars but Ryu I think has it stand out a lot more.

 

[Browny]

Shouldn't advantage state also clearly include edgeguards and any time the enemy is pressured to the ledge/offstage?

If we are going to give Ryu a 4.5, what about the times when the enemy isnt in his utilt range? If he knocks the enemy away with literally any attack that isnt a light d/utilt I wouldn't say his advantage is high since he doesnt exactly push people to the ledge anywhere near as well as the likes of Rosalina or ZSS who can kill you in like 4 different ways after pushing you to the edge.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Shouldn't advantage state also clearly include edgeguards and any time the enemy is pressured to the ledge/offstage?

If we are going to give Ryu a 4.5, what about the times when the enemy isnt in his utilt range? If he knocks the enemy away with literally any attack that isnt a light d/utilt I wouldn't say his advantage is high since he doesnt exactly push people to the ledge anywhere near as well as the likes of Rosalina or ZSS who can kill you in like 4 different ways after pushing you to the edge.

Considerable point but his Fair strings into itself at low %s for free damage and good position, among other things. It's not really JUST his lights (I oversimplified, let me elaborate).

Why he at least deserves a 4 (4.5 IMO but if 4 is more agreeable I'll settle for it) is because he does a ton of damage when he wins the neutral, regardless of if he hits you with a light or not. His hard hitting attacks knock people away a good distance but they usually are within followup/pressure range for Ryu to keep them guessing (usually with Uair) and if Fair hits at low %s (either OoS or raw) it goes into itself again for more free damage. He racks damage up incredibly fast when he gets one hit in whether it be a light or heavy solely because his heavy stuff (insofar as aerials) has ridiculous hitstun and knockback, and his lights chain into specials. His goal isn't really to push you to the edge perse (although he does so very well off of trades or strong aerials) since Ryu's edgeguarding is not his best attribute, it's mostly his on-stage ability and ways of converting from the neutral into a guaranteed kill.

Whether this deserves a 4 or 4.5 is up to opinion, but his advantaged state is REALLY good. I also notice we haven't discussed Ryu's neutral, but I find it really hard to give him a ranking in that field. Perhaps more experienced Ryu input could come in and help me with that? I have a solid definition of his advantaged state, but his neutral is very interesting to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Only ZSS and MK have a 5 in advantage imo.

Ryu CAN kill you at dumb percents with spike set-ups but his opponent needs to do something stupid or be a fast faller.

Ryu is a 4 in advantage at worst. He has tons of kill confirms and the ability to walk forward and press utilt and dtilt with cstick set to attack is super threatening and simply demands respect. Also weak nair to jab/dtilt/utilt xx TSRK is a real kill confirm as is strong nair dash into TSRK. The percents these work at are actually pretty universal across the cast. Generally when an opponent is right in kill percent for a TSRK, weak nair into w/e will work. And anytime they are close to hitting kill percent then strong nair to w/e works.

Also hadouken trap is super free and forces an opponent to do something. He can set it up after any fair string or throw. Just press b and wait. It's that simple and only the top tiers can kind of ignore it but even ZSS has to be wary because Ryu doesnt care about flip jump. TSRK will blow throw the kick.

idk mang.

I just uppercut people.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Who can actually compete with sheik at neutral? I've seen Vinnie vs ZeRo on youtube when they fought at paragon and dang, the options and sheer agility that sheik presents is absolutely devastating. Not to mention Vinnie demolished not only MVD's diddy, but ZeRo's as well and we all know about diddy + banana is something to be feared.
Once sheik's neutral is perfected, I can only see a handful of characters handle sheik in neutral and the rest will have to find a way out of disadvantage more.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I pretty much agree with warionumbah2's ratings on MK.
I might want to discuss further his disadvantaged state, but that'll be later, when the topic eventually gets there.

Didn't know Luigi can end your stock off one conversion at fraudulent percents.

How do we measure Mr. Game and Watch then?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Just came to a thought, what if a character's advantage depended on the character he was playing? For example, Kirby vs fox is amazing for kirby at early percent if he gets advantage, having a 60% combo (u-tilts u-air fastfall more u-tilts etc), but on characters like puff and rosa it would go from like a 4 star to s 2 star.

 

[Gawain]

Are we already talking about Advantage? Because I think there are stipulations about advantage that need to be adjusted. Mostly that I think there is a heavy weighting of characters in the 4 Star category, if a 4 Star Advantage is rated to be comparable to a 4 Star Neutral in terms of usefulness.

I'm going to post my thoughts about Roy once again though, if that's what we're doing. I'm spoiling it for length though.

★★★★/★★★☆

Spoiler

First I will talk about why I have put the slash there. Advantage is, in my opinion, much much harder to pin down than neutral, because the things you can do in advantage are much more limited or enhanced by the character you are up against. Neutral tools are generally good regardless. Sometimes stuff like dash grab ranges can change it, but not to nearly the same effect. Now, I think that the stars ought to be weighted by how they compare to common competitive matchups. That is to say, characters that are considered good. I feel it doesn't help much to compare how Captain Falcon fares vs Bowser when we could instead talk about how he does vs Sheik for example. This is the reason I have the slash in my ranking here. Room for error if you will.

I'm going to divide my post up into several parts that constitute what I believe are the most important parts of a characters advantage state. These are 1. Ability to Build Percent(aka followup potential at low percent), 2. Kill Setups(comboing and otherwise reliably doing it), 3. Mobility and Landing/Ledge Coverage, and finally 4. Edge Guarding

1. Ability To Build Percent
Roy has, if you ask me, some of the most reliable ways to build percent extremely quickly in the game. He's not Luigi, no, but he pretty much always gets at least 20 percent off a good confirm up till around 90ish, when his throws stop being guaranteed(in some matchups they remain guaranteed though). Stuff like a sour nair into grab into fthrow into a full DB with a DBdown4 finisher works amazingly well on important characters like Sheik, Falcon, Mario etc. and is guaranteed. Vs anyone but floaty cast members he will always get around 30ish percent off each throw until mid percents where it will be around 20. And all of these setups lead into the opponent being in the air above Roy, or offstage. He can combo into a throw at low percents with jab and nair. At low/mid percents, jab will combo into full DB series, and nair will start comboing into itself and other fair. Fair also combos into blazer as an aerial finisher, or into itself, or into nair due to having early IASA frames before landing.

What I'm getting at here is that Roy has a giant range of ways to build percent, with his 2 best combo starters that aren't grab being a major part of his neutral game. He has many ways to set up locks with RAR bairs and even a few for locking with sour fsmash. I won't spend much more time on this section as I feel it is pretty self-evident in itself that Roy builds percent extremely quickly from a variety of starters.

2. Kill Setups
This I feel is one of the sections that Roy does the least spectacularly in. He has a couple of good setups, but they can't compare to setups like ZSS or Sheik have, though he does have some. For Blazer, at VERY specific percents (similar in range to the Ding Dong, but at much higher percents) down throw will create a 50/50 setup provided that they don't DI in. Blazer, if done immediately from down throw will eat attacks and double jumps but will lose to air dodge. If you bait the air dodge you can just do a delayed blazer or some other aerial though. The issue with this setup aside from the DI problem, is that Blazer isn't exceptionally fast, so your opponent might(?) be able to just airdodge it on reaction, in theory. The other, and more reliable, setups into blazer are from dtilt and jab. If the opponent doesn't DI out, then jab will true combo into Blazer at kill percents vs most of the cast. So IE jabbing someone at the ledge where they are likely to not DI all the way out due to it being a fast move. Dtilt setups up for tech chases at kill percents, where you can get Blazer kills fairly easy (IE run past them, if they do getup attack, you blazer through it with the armor, blazer the tech roll etc etc...) Finally, he can also combo landing up air (sour) into a grounded blazer/up tilt for the kill or landing up air (sweet) into an aerial blazer, though the aerial blazer is not a very good kill choice except on stages with somewhat smaller ceilings or started from a platform.

Other than blazer though, Roy is somewhat limited in how he can reliably get the kill. Up throw will kill at okay percentages if you've got a little rage. The only other ways he can true combo into a kill move is with stuff like nair hit 1 into downsmash or something similar. Other than that, he's gotta get a kill with an edge guard (not all that likely in important matchups) or with a landing trap or other read.

On a side note, he can also Do DB 1 ---> DB2 up to create a R/P/S mixup situation where he can sometimes get the kill, though I haven't explored this option much in general and can't comment much on it.

3. Mobility and Landing/Ledge Coverage
This is one of the areas I feel Roy is VERY underrated in. Whenever Roy gets a hit or gets a solid combo, His opponent is nearly always put in a bad situation where they're either off stage(ideal) or at least in the air above Roy. Roy has an extremely good airspeed and a pretty good ground speed as well. After he ends a combo, the opponent isn't out of danger immediately. He is always able to get ready for some other setup. If he knocks them offstage, then he's in a great spot because he has an amazing ledge getup coverage. If he stands just outside the opponent's ledge attack range, he has a number of options that he can do. He can charge a flare blade, which has amazingly early IASA frames, to cover a ledge getup and a ledge attack. If they do something else, he can always immediately let it go and jump to cover a ledge jump or prepare for something else(like if they ledge dropped). Even if the Flare Blade is blocked after a normal ledge getup, he can just downtilt immediately and poke their shield or hit them if they try to attack/grab. If they roll under the FB, he can punish with a grab or something else. And vs the characters where Flare Blade's range is insufficient or isn't working for another reason, he can just stand their and dtilt on reaction to whatever they do, which gives him time to punish a different option if chosen. Roy's ability to frustrate the opponent at the ledge with light hits is extremely underrated if you ask me, he can really keep people directly at the ledge using his safe aerials and pokes in combination with moves like Flare Blade as well as his mobility.

4. Edge Guarding
This is the area of Roy's advantage that is definitely his weakest. This doesn't mean his Edge Guarding is terrible, but it is definitely the weakest area of his advantage imo. The main reason for this is that it's pretty limited by matchup, and the matchups where it could be useful are not that common. Fair is a pretty decent edgeguarding tool. It comes out pretty fast and has good range (pretty much equal to Marth's in range). Roy's fast airspeed and fallspeed lets him rocket off the ledge into a fair, which can be pretty great for example in the Ness matchup if the Ness isn't careful about his angles. Roy has no good meteors though, so his ability to gimp is not good at all outside very fringe circumstances. The only real thing of note with Roy's edgeguarding is that his Flare Blade stays out for 3 frames, which means it's not a horrible choice to jump off, b-reverse and charge, and hit opponents recovering low. Overall I would say though that Roy is most of the time better off just staying near the ledge and keeping the opponent offstage that way until they get frustrated and make a punishable error for the kill.

To summarize, I feel like Roy's advantage options work exceptionally well vs all the fast fallers, and especially the light/mostly light ones like Fox and Sheik. And these I feel are the matches where it really matters most. His neutral tools just work well to move into his advantage state where he really racks up damage fast, and his advantage state just tends to last a long time in general thanks to his mobility. I would have no qualms with putting Roy at a solid 4 or even 4.5 if his down throw comboed into blazer regardless of DI, but because it doesn't and because they can just DI in and avoid that setup, he just sometimes struggles to get a kill without having significant positional advantage. I feel like it's closer to 4 stars, but 3.5 is a more suitable group in general because a lot of his setups fail to work vs floatier cast members, making these matchups somewhat awkward, though not always bad per se.

I am confident that the 3.5/4 star area is where he sits in this regard, though he is very borderline 4 imo.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Seems like people want to jump into the ADVANTAGE state already

SO, WE SHALL DO THAT NOW, BUT FIRST! Here are the final results for the NEUTRAL state...for now, anyways:

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (Results, Part 3)

( ✪ = )

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Explanations~

"Still the Queen of Neutral. Nothing new here. However, as a reminder, the ✪ symbol means that, even if another character is added to Rank ★★★★★, Sheik will still be recognized as the creme of the crop. So far, the only characters I would add to Rank ★★★★★ would be and/or , though I would like more opinions on this before I decide to do anything."

Although he lacks range, he makes up for it in speed and mobility. Frame 2 Jab, Frame 3 OoS (only bested by Little Mac), 2nd best frame data in the game, decent projectile for both approaching and retreating, versatile special moves in FLUDD and Cape, and a 9 Frame Usmash that has head invulnerability and is one of the best OoS moves in the game. He also has a frame 6 grab and speedy dashgrab as well. Overall, while he is not the best in Neutral, he is very solid. But he probably won't be higher than Rank ★★★★, as he lacks things such as a fast Fair. He does have Bair and other tools to help make up for it a bit, though.

Although there was a bit of discussion about lowering his Neutral to Rank ★★★☆, I don't feel as though it was enough to lower it currently. While he does lack good OoS options, he still has one of the fastest and highest jumps in the game to help him escape. And he has a 3 Frame Jab to help in CQC situations, which is solid. So, for now, he stays in Rank ★★★★.

The most recently discussed newcomer. Many people equate him to a "Mini-Falcon" in regards to his Neutral. Dash Attack and Dash Grab are great tools for closing space and punishing, and his other tools are solid too. His lack of range and safeness on his aerials, on top of having lower mobility than Captain Falcon (especially in the air), currently puts him ☆ Star under Captain Falcon.

Bumped back up from Rank ★☆ to Rank ★★☆ now, since his moves are safer to throw out than the Rank ★★ characters. Especially his Nair and Fair. He could be in Rank ★★★ instead, but for now, I think Rank ★★☆ is fine. Huge lack of range still hurts him pretty badly.

Promoted to Rank ★★ for now, since she has Dash Attack, Zair, Dtilt, Bair, Uair, Nair, Up B OoS, and other decent tools to help her in the Neutral. However, the best thing that helps her Neutral is her ability to use SHAD options, which greatly increase her safeness. Especially when she can Zair out of it whenever she wants. Her poor jab and slow grab is incredibly unfortunate though, and hold her back by a large amount. However, after retesting, she could potentially move slightly higher in the Neutral Ranks, though not by much. But for now, Rank ★★ should be a fair conclusion for the character's standings.

Due to the volatile nature of his Monado Arts, it's hard for me to determine where his Neutral lies. It has a lot of the same problems that D3 has, only he has an Up B OoS, has more range (notably in the air), and has Monado Arts. Sooo...I placed him one Rank higher than D3, though I'm always open to more opinions in the future.

Bumped down, because of him being very punishable on whiff, lacking in OoS options, and having no SHAD options. Fastest move being a frame 6 Dtilt isn't all that good, either. Still, he can outrange the characters below him, and Gordos (while risky) do a solid chunk of damage to the opponent and have decent mixup opportunities...so long as they aren't thrown back into his face.

All four of them have abysmally terrible Neutral states, so I wasn't exactly sure how to rank them. Of them, Zelda actually has SHAD options such as Nair, Bair, and Neutral B. Though they're not super noteworthy besides Neutral B. Jiggs has Dash Attack and SHAD Nair (and Rest?), along with her potent aerial mobility and okay aerials, but nothing besides that. The other two don't have SHAD options at all, but they do possess range and G&W has disjoints. Ganondorf obviously having the most range and power, plus he possesses the only command grab from the group and a semi-burst mobility option in Down B (still pretty slow though). He also has a good dash attack. G&W also has a good dash attack, too. G&W also has a projectile, but...it's pretty crappy. He does have his bucket for projectile denial, but not against everything (Sheik's Needles being the worst). To sum everything up though, they are all pretty bad, so it is a bit hard to know where to place them exactly on the bottom. The worst one that stands out to me though is...

Jiggs, because in my mind, I can picture the other three characters beating her in the Neutral. G&W has his disjointed Bair/Fair and wonky anti-air projectiles, Zelda has Nayru's Love in particular to deny Jigglypuff's approaches, and a well-placed Fair or Usmash from Ganondorf will send her to the moon. So, my ranking on these four characters might shift in the future, but currently, I feel as though Jigglypuff has the worst Neutral in the entire game.



And there you have it, folks. Aside from the 14 1/2 missing characters, we are done with the NEUTRAL state for now. And, unless I missed something super major, changes to the Neutral Rankings have been LOCKED until we are done with the other two states~

Anywho (although people are already discussing it), this topic will now focus on the ADVANTAGE state!

I will post the Advantage Rankings List sometime later tonight when I am not busy. Until then, you guys can talk about how the characters compare in the Advantage state however you like~

 

[Gawain]

Seems like people want to jump into the ADVANTAGE state already

SO, WE SHALL DO THAT NOW, BUT FIRST! Here are the final results for the NEUTRAL state...for now, anyways:

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (Results, Part 3)

( ✪ = )

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Explanations~

"Still the Queen of Neutral. Nothing new here. However, as a reminder, the ✪ symbol means that, even if another character is added to Rank ★★★★★, Sheik will still be recognized as the creme of the crop. So far, the only characters I would add to Rank ★★★★★ would be and/or , though I would like more opinions on this before I decide to do anything."

Although he lacks range, he makes up for it in speed and mobility. Frame 2 Jab, Frame 3 OoS (only bested by Little Mac), 2nd best frame data in the game, decent projectile for both approaching and retreating, versatile special moves in FLUDD and Cape, and a 9 Frame Usmash that has head invulnerability and is one of the best OoS moves in the game. He also has a frame 6 grab and speedy dashgrab as well. Overall, while he is not the best in Neutral, he is very solid. But he probably won't be higher than Rank ★★★★, as he lacks things such as a fast Fair. He does have Bair and other tools to help make up for it a bit, though.

Although there was a bit of discussion about lowering his Neutral to Rank ★★★☆, I don't feel as though it was enough to lower it currently. While he does lack good OoS options, he still has one of the fastest and highest jumps in the game to help him escape. And he has a 3 Frame Jab to help in CQC situations, which is solid. So, for now, he stays in Rank ★★★★.

The most recently discussed newcomer. Many people equate him to a "Mini-Falcon" in regards to his Neutral. Dash Attack and Dash Grab are great tools for closing space and punishing, and his other tools are solid too. His lack of range and safeness on his aerials, on top of having lower mobility than Captain Falcon (especially in the air), currently puts him ☆ Star under Captain Falcon.

Bumped back up from Rank ★☆ to Rank ★★☆ now, since his moves are safer to throw out than the Rank ★★ characters. Especially his Nair and Fair. He could be in Rank ★★★ instead, but for now, I think Rank ★★☆ is fine. Huge lack of range still hurts him pretty badly.

Promoted to Rank ★★ for now, since she has Dash Attack, Zair, Dtilt, Bair, Uair, Nair, Up B OoS, and other decent tools to help her in the Neutral. However, the best thing that helps her Neutral is her ability to use SHAD options, which greatly increase her safeness. Especially when she can Zair out of it whenever she wants. Her poor jab and slow grab is incredibly unfortunate though, and hold her back by a large amount. However, after retesting, she could potentially move slightly higher in the Neutral Ranks, though not by much. But for now, Rank ★★ should be a fair conclusion for the character's standings.

Due to the volatile nature of his Monado Arts, it's hard for me to determine where his Neutral lies. It has a lot of the same problems that D3 has, only he has an Up B OoS, has more range (notably in the air), and has Monado Arts. Sooo...I placed him one Rank higher than D3, though I'm always open to more opinions in the future.

Bumped down, because of him being very punishable on whiff, lacking in OoS options, and having no SHAD options. Fastest move being a frame 6 Dtilt isn't all that good, either. Still, he can outrange the characters below him, and Gordos (while risky) do a solid chunk of damage to the opponent and have decent mixup opportunities...so long as they aren't thrown back into his face.

All four of them have abysmally terrible Neutral states, so I wasn't exactly sure how to rank them. Of them, Zelda actually has SHAD options such as Nair, Bair, and Neutral B. Though they're not super noteworthy besides Neutral B. Jiggs has Dash Attack and SHAD Nair (and Rest?), along with her potent aerial mobility and okay aerials, but nothing besides that. The other two don't have SHAD options at all, but they do possess range and G&W has disjoints. Ganondorf obviously having the most range and power, plus he possesses the only command grab from the group and a semi-burst mobility option in Down B (still pretty slow though). He also has a good dash attack. G&W also has a good dash attack, too. G&W also has a projectile, but...it's pretty crappy. He does have his bucket for projectile denial, but not against everything (Sheik's Needles being the worst). To sum everything up though, they are all pretty bad, so it is a bit hard to know where to place them exactly on the bottom. The worst one that stands out to me though is...

Jiggs, because in my mind, I can picture the other three characters beating her in the Neutral. G&W has his disjointed Bair/Fair and wonky anti-air projectiles, Zelda has Nayru's Love in particular to deny Jigglypuff's approaches, and a well-placed Fair or Usmash from Ganondorf will send her to the moon. So, my ranking on these four characters might shift in the future, but currently, I feel as though Jigglypuff has the worst Neutral in the entire game.



And there you have it, folks. Aside from the 14 1/2 missing characters, we are done with the NEUTRAL state for now. And, unless I missed something super major, changes to the Neutral Rankings has been LOCKED until we are done with the other two states~

Anywho (although people are already discussing it), this topic will now focus on the ADVANTAGE state!

I will post the Advantage Rankings List sometime later tonight when I am not busy. Until then, you guys can talk about how the characters compare in the Advantage state however you like~

Yeah I'm just going to say that I strongly disagree with many placements on this, in particular if we're talking about ordered lists here.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Yeah I'm just going to say that I strongly disagree with many placements on this, in particular if we're talking about ordered lists here.

That's fine. More discussion for later when we move back to the Neutral state, lol~

 

[FullMoon]

I already stated me opinion on Greninja's advantage and I stay with my 4 1/2 ranking.

Greninja just has so much reward on hit with most of his moves, amazing and safe edgeguarding with Hydro Pump and some of the best overall mobility with fast moves right where they need to be in order to allow him to cover landings and juggle.

 

[bc1910]

I think advantage can really be boiled down to 3 areas.

1. Damage racking
An extremely broad term covering almost everything we typically think of when we talk about the advantaged state. Combo ability, damage per hit, landing traps, airdodge traps, everything like that comes under this umbrella.

2. Killing
A stricter term but probably the most important part of the advantage state - how easily your character can convert their hits into KOs. This encompasses raw kill moves and kill setups.

3. Edgeguarding
Self-explanatory.

In terms of what the star rankings mean this time around, I would describe them as follows.

★★★★★
Amazing damage racking that flows seamlessly into low percent kill setups. Even the tiniest conversion can lead into a KO at fraudulent percents. The ability to nab kills or huge damage off any hit overshadows the importance of edgeguarding. ZSS and Meta Knight are the only characters with a 5 star advantage state in my opinion, because their conversions are on a different level to the rest of the cast. Incidentally, I think MK's edgeguarding is pretty good and ZSS' is pretty average, but as I said, their advantage state is so strong in the other areas that neither character really needs to edgeguard.

★★★★☆
These characters trade some kill setups for reliance on edgeguarding. I think this group consists of characters who can combo you to hell and back with some pretty good kill setups and strong edgeguarding ability. However, their ability to convert hits into kills is significantly worse than the 5 star group, because their kills either happen at higher percents or are harder to get due to their kill confirms being less potent. Sheik and Pikachu are perfect characters for this group in my opinion, and Luigi probably makes it too because he makes up for his weaker edgeguarding with stronger kill setups. Ryu could probably fit in this group too, though I don't think he's as oppressive as Sheik or Pikachu in every MU.

★★★★
Similar to the 4.5 star group but slightly worse at everything.

I will rank a few characters, but kicking things off with Greninja...


ADVANTAGE: ★★★★
Greninja has good damage racking ability through simple, naturally high damaging combos; his BnB Nair > Usmash does 30% and any combo into Fair usually does upwards of 20%. His more complex combos are also powerful, for example he can pseudo-chaingrab certain characters with repeated Dthrow Dtilt combos and finish with an Uthrow Uair for almost 50% damage. His throw combos are pretty good. Landing traps are godlike with his fast, ranged, disjointed dash grab coming off his top 6 run speed. Usmash does 19% and isn't hard to hit with for juggling purposes, it can also trap airdodges effectively because of its range. Something something footstool combos.

Kill potential is good, with numerous kill confirms including 2 possible ways to kill from a grab (Dthrow Fair or higher % Uthrow). Fsmash is a simple, fast, ranged attack with decent power. Its strength is really in its simplicity; no multi hits or sweetpots to worry about, any time someone gives Greninja a 13 frame punish window and they're above 100%, they're probably dying. Usmash is really powerful and easy to sweetspot due to the large number of active frames on the sweetspot hitboxes (6 frames across hit 1 and hit 2) but it can be hard to get a good opponent in the position to get hit by it. Greninja's moves do not tend to kill all that early, though Usmash can be an exception with rage.

Edgeguarding is also good, with Bair acting like a weaker Mega Man Bair and Hydro Pump completely invalidating certain recoveries. Shuriken is also a powerful edgeguarding tool. Greninja doesn't really put himself at risk whilst edgeguarding because he mostly uses his projectiles, shuriken and Hydro Pump. That's a pretty big boon compared even to a character like Sheik who has great edgeguarding but has to chase offstage and risks getting hit with stray Bairs from returning opponents.

Overall I think Greninja is well above average at everything the advantage state encompasses, I just don't think he's as good as the characters above him. His combos aren't as never-ending as Sheik's or Pikachu's, his edgeguarding is always "strong" but is only truly amazing in certain MUs and his ability to convert hits into kills isn't amazing since his moves don't kill until over 100% for the most part. His only semi-reliable way to get fraudulent low percent kills is with Hydro Pump which as I said is MU specific.

I think there is an argument for Greninja to get 4.5 stars here for a couple of reasons. Firstly, optimized Hydro Pump edgeguards would be really stupid and would greatly improve his ability to get low percent kills. Secondly, he is one of the few characters to have a forward-facing KO confirm from a throw with Dthrow Fair and since Fair is pretty powerful, this setup can kill quite early near the ledge. Exploring this setup could once again significantly boost Greninja's ability to get kills.

For now though, with us being at the stage we're at in Greninja's development, I think ★★★★ is fine for his advantage.

 

[Nobie]

Something is up with these ratings. After all, we have a bunch of characters with like 4 or higher in all categories, and yet a lot of them have notable weaknesses that can be exploited. For example, according to some Greninja is some kind of super god, but clearly is not, even if it's good. What's missing?

 

[Trifroze]

Regarding ZSS' edgeguarding, hype kick aka down b meteor on the ledge upon the opponent's recovery and 2 frame vulnerability is a thing I feel like will be abused more and more as her meta develops, perhaps to a point it becomes a very polarizing thing in many matchups. This is because it has 6 active frames and is essentially a certain kill on all reactable up bs and linear recoveries and only needs to work once to kill, however it's hard to pull off on super low recoveries that can snap to the ledge really fast like Pikachu's up b because they require a guess. It does work on some stuff that normal edgeguarding doesn't work well against though like Sheik's up b. Also, if your opponent recovers low and ZSS has the stock lead or a large percent disadvantage, she can down air suicide them. Side B gimps are still sorta being implemented but it's probably too slow to ever be very useful.

What about ledge coverage though? I think it's a distinctive thing from edgeguarding, damage racking and killing. ZSS' down smash is really good for this for example.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's disadvantages come mostly from, well, his disadvantaged state. He's a fast faller and not very heavy, so he can be combo'd pretty easily at early percentages especially by Up-Tilt chains. His options for landing are also not very good.

His advantaged state was always amazing and is the main claim to fame Greninja has in the meta.

In neutral he has the flaw of his OoS game and some laggy moves, but shuriken zoning and his high mobility help mitigate this issue.

I did place Greninja's disadvantage at ★★★☆ and that's mainly because of his recovery.

 

[Pazx]

I think Mario is a contender for having one of the best advantage states in the game, he's obviously no ZSS but I can't see him lower than 4 stars. Uair is a stupid good combo/juggle move and the best thing to do if you're above Mario is to take the hit, if you airdodge you WILL die to his up or forward smash, best case scenario you get grabbed and have to find your way down again. This (pseudo? I think it's legit but I'm not sure) frame trap absolutely destroys every character that doesn't have really good landing options. His edgeguarding is pretty good too (not superb but cape + fludd + bair, fair is always threatening), his throw combos are obviously good and they transition nicely into uair juggles which he can then choose to extend with his up-B (doesn't kill like MK or ZSS which is good for the rest of us, maaaaybe on Halberd) or just fast fall down and reset the juggle situation.

Falco probably has 3.5+ star neutral, he's just a bit on the slow side. His jab is great, his ftilt is good, grab combos are there (so grab is a threat in the neutral), semi-useable projectile, bair is dumb, has a reflector. He kinda has everything, even a (pretty bad) burst mobility option.

I still think Fox's neutral is too high.

 

[Vyrnx]

IMO if Sheik is the queen of neutral, ZSS would be the queen of advantage. I know a lot will disagree but I think there's a noticeable gap between her and the next best. Her conversions at any percent either do a whole lot of damage or take stocks, more so than any other. MKs will argue, but ZSS has a better advantage state when the whole range of percents is considered.

Other characters in the 4.5-5 star range:
MK because of the instant death combo and his edge guarding
Sheik because of her damaging combos and great edge guarding
Rosalina because of her stage control and crazy knockback on many moves
Pikachu has the best edge guarding and ofc very good combos
Ryu because of weak utilt to true shoryuken (among other things)
Lucario when he's at high percents makes a good case for 5 stars

Also ofc Luigi and Mario are high because of their combos and kill options but I think are slightly held back by their less excellent edge guarding when compared to the characters above (exceptions being Ryu and Lucario). Although sometimes I think Luigi's combos are just so good that it doesn't really matter.

I know I'm missing some, but these are the first that came to mind.

 

[Browny]

Something is up with these ratings. After all, we have a bunch of characters with like 4 or higher in all categories, and yet a lot of them have notable weaknesses that can be exploited. For example, according to some Greninja is some kind of super god, but clearly is not, even if it's good. What's missing?

Pretty sure if you averaged out most peoples opinions, the majority of characters are 4* or higher. When everyone is rated top, no one is *truly* rated top.

There needs to be some sort of criteria put in place here. If Greninja is rated so highly in everything, hed be top tier easily. Falling nair -> usmash combo as a reason to rate him highly in advantage? What about if the opponent does... anything about it, nair isnt exactly guaranteed from a throw or tilt, long range, able to poke or safe on block. Seems like just as effective a kill set up as throwing out Docs fair.

 

[Gawain]

Pretty sure if you averaged out most peoples opinions, the majority of characters are 4* or higher. When everyone is rated top, no one is *truly* rated top.

There needs to be some sort of criteria put in place here. If Greninja is rated so highly in everything, hed be top tier easily. Falling nair -> usmash combo as a reason to rate him highly in advantage? What about if the opponent does... anything about it, nair isnt exactly guaranteed from a throw or tilt, long range, able to poke or safe on block. Seems like just as effective a kill set up as throwing out Docs fair.

Thank you. The way a lot of these characters are rated is nonsense. Some of it is way too high, some are way too low.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Well advantage is what happens after someone gets hit. So Greninja not being safe isn't about his advantage state. Thats his neutral.

Anyway continue.

 

[san.]

There are too many factors that simple buzzwords aren't going to cover, but we'll try anyways.

Ike's advantage can be seen from 3 to 4 depending on how you look at it. He has many setups into his combos, but his combos typically only last for 19-23%. After that, Ike traps with his aerials and grounded options. His attacks in general deal good damage and knockback. You'll generally just see 1 hits or 2 hits dealing a steady % each time. Ike can respond to direct aggression fairly easily if they're predictable, fortunately. Dash attack covers landings.

Edgeguarding is ok. You can make people contest your range and bait certain actions such as air dodges, eruption, or cover the edge. Dtilt, nair, and grab are the easiest kill setups from the edge, while many other single attacks kill.

Ike's problem is that it's pretty tough to trap into his most dangerous attacks with the improved air dodges in the air. His smash attacks are way too risky to use. This decreases his relative kill power quite a bit. Ike also can't trap high up in the air very well. He'll try to hit you once high up, land, then try it again.

Probably ★★★☆. Can end stocks easily if the opponent can't get a grasp on how to deal with the range. If Ike had some air->air attacks or better smashes, then it would be higher.


Also, Gunner's is ★★. He can combo out of fair, missile, bomb drop, and grenade. Uair can kill off the top ~100 up high in the air, and combos from dthrow if you don't DI behind him. Smash attacks are fairly powerful and fast for their range, but inconsistent for usmash and dsmash. You can combo from nair/bair and trap pretty easily. Nair and bair both have good FAF, autocancels, and range.

He's capable of utilt chains (0/0) and some aggressive play, but a lot of it isn't guaranteed.

Edgeguarding is pretty good with projectiles, upB1, and nair.

Other than that, advantage is pretty difficult with such niche aerials. Nair is used as a replacement for the traditional uair, while uair itself is pretty niche to use but very good in its one use. Limited throw and kill combos. Damage racking is quite easy, however, since damage is high and knockback is low on a lot of moves. If bair had more knockback, that would help the character a lot.

 

[FullMoon]

There needs to be some sort of criteria put in place here. If Greninja is rated so highly in everything, hed be top tier easily. Falling nair -> usmash combo as a reason to rate him highly in advantage? What about if the opponent does... anything about it, nair isnt exactly guaranteed from a throw or tilt, long range, able to poke or safe on block. Seems like just as effective a kill set up as throwing out Docs fair.

N-Air -> Up-Smash

N-Air -> F-Air

D-Tilt -> F-Air

D-Air -> F-Air

D-Throw -> F-Air

D-Tilt -> Up-Smash

Up-tilt -> Up-Air

Up-Air Spike -> Down/Forward Smash

Charged Shuriken -> F-Air

That's not even all of them.

Greninja's advantage is not good because of a single kill setup, it's good because he has so many of them that getting hit by most of his moves at a high percent can lead to you dying. He's not going to be throwing moves out at random, he's a footsies character. If we include things he can do if he baits certain reactions then he has quite a few 50/50s as well.

Also like I said Greninja's disadvantage is not that good, which is what holds him back.

Something to keep in mind is that not even DI can save you sometimes, if you DI away after being hit by a N-Air, instead of Up-Smash you might just get hit by F-Air instead, DI towards and then you really get Up-Smashed. Same with D-Tilt.

I mean come on if you're going to say that Greninja is rated too high at least give a legitimate reason instead of saying that his entire advantage is N-Air -> Up-Smash.

 

[Browny]

N-Air -> Up-Smash

N-Air -> F-Air

D-Tilt -> F-Air

D-Air -> F-Air

D-Throw -> F-Air

D-Tilt -> Up-Smash

Up-tilt -> Up-Air

Up-Air Spike -> Down/Forward Smash

Charged Shuriken -> F-Air

That's not even all of them.

Greninja's advantage is not good because of a single kill setup, it's good because he has so many of them that getting hit by most of his moves at a high percent can lead to you dying. He's not going to be throwing moves out at random, he's a footsies character. If we include things he can do if he baits certain reactions then he has quite a few 50/50s as well.

Also like I said Greninja's disadvantage is not that good, which is what holds him back.

Something to keep in mind is that not even DI can save you sometimes, if you DI away after being hit by a N-Air, instead of Up-Smash you might just get hit by F-Air instead, DI towards and then you really get Up-Smashed. Same with D-Tilt.

I mean come on if you're going to say that Greninja is rated too high at least give a legitimate reason instead of saying that his entire advantage is N-Air -> Up-Smash.

I'm going off this
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/
Where the combos listed there are almost all 'yellow' as in hard to pull off, DI dependant etc.

How can you be so highly rated in advantage if almost every single kill set-up is by Greninja mains' own words 'hard to pull off'. Pretty much the only blue combos there rely off a u-air spike to set up KO's, but thats a pretty poor option comparatively when many characters bypass that and just straight kill you instead, at an earlier % with their uair.

I mean, Mewtwo mains could claim he has a top tier advantage game when he lands a hit confirm off disable but thats stretching it way too far, I think you're doing that with greninja too.

When other characters straight up kill you with an easy airdodge read or combo like DKs throw-uair, relying on hard-to-land moves to set up into your kill moves looks pretty mediocre.

 

[bc1910]

Thank you. The way a lot of these characters are rated is nonsense. Some of it is way too high, some are way too low.

Having seen your Roy rankings this is a little hollow.

---

That thread you linked hasn't been updated for over 6 months.

Usmash killing an airdodge on reaction at 90 isn't easy? Or Dthrow forcing you to guess between Fair and delayed Fair, Usmash or Fsmash? Or any mistake that can be punished by a 13 frame Fsmash? He has kill moves and confirms that aren't hard to land in advantage. He can also win the neutral state repeatedly through shuriken pressure forcing reactions that can be punished, reactions that go beyond "just powershield" because charging the shuriken slightly can beat reaction time.

IMO this goes back to Greninja being underrated more than anything else. Others will call this a cop out, and disagree and say he'd have better results if he was actually worth using but it is what it is. This stuff can make his rankings seem suspect to others. For anyone who cares his results have been on the rise since his shuriken buff, though mostly outside the US.

4 star is not a godly ranking or a top tier ranking, 4 star is a high tier ranking. It's a whole star away from being the best, we only have 5 possible stars to use. I and others believe Greninja to be a lower high tier character in the 16-20 group of characters, 4 stars for two of his states makes sense following my general opinion of the character. For his disadvantage I'm still deciding between 2.5 and 3.5 but let's say I gave him 3, he'd have 11 stars out 15 overall. That's not even 80% of possible stars.

MK, a lower top tier character, has 12.5 stars according to warionumbah2's ranking.
Sheik, the best in the game, will presumably end up with 14.5 stars (5 + 4.5 + 5)
ZSS, the second best in the game, will presumably end up with 14 stars (4 + 5 + 5).
Pikachu, a top tier, will also end up with 14 stars (4.5 + 4.5 + 5).

So Greninja is still an entire 3 stars away from the top tiers. How exactly is that godly? 11/15 would be a B. Seems pretty fitting for what I would consider a high tier character. And hell, let's say I threw his advantage down to 3.5, he'd have 10.5 stars overall which is even further away. Greninja's ranking is above average where some would want to see a painfully average ranking, but it's still a long way from the top characters.

Between 10 and 12 stars are where high tiers should sit, with 12 stars pushing top tier (so Wario, Villager maybe). These rankings need to be kept relative.

 

[Jamurai]

IMO if Sheik is the queen of neutral, ZSS would be the queen of advantage. I know a lot will disagree but I think there's a noticeable gap between her and the next best. Her conversions at any percent either do a whole lot of damage or take stocks, more so than any other. MKs will argue, but ZSS has a better advantage state when the whole range of percents is considered.

Other characters in the 4.5-5 star range:
MK because of the instant death combo and his edge guarding

I'm being that MK who argues.

MK's dash attack (DA) > Uairs > Up-B combo isn't the only reason why he has a top tier advantage.

After DA > Uair combo % ends (usually 30-40 ish):

• Any DA or grab leads into, at least, a Shuttle Loop for ~20%+, up to and including at kill %s
• DA may fail to combo into Uair but Uairs still combo into each other 1-3 times into Shuttle Loop, if an optimal MK catches someone in the air with it at mid %s (airdodge read or not) then they have probably lost their stock
• Uair combos into Shuttle Loop well past 100%

He has many low% combos which can be chosen to achieve a certain % which puts them in Uair kill combo range. They can even be stringed together quite fluidly if the opponent fails to reset to neutral in between, see http://www.twitch.tv/landiego/v/14341183 at 1:54:39 for a good (and recent) example. Also, with his 6 jumps and excellent ground mobility he juggles characters who struggle to land for days. And he has great edgeguarding as you mentioned, because of multiple jumps and powerful disjoints in Nair, Bair and Dair.

I think MK has a top advantage rating because he has a ridiculous low % kill combo that works on everyone regardless of DI at varying %s, which can be set up and adapted. This is on top of having a lot of other high-damage combos at many %s, reliable kill setups at mid-to-high %s, and strong juggling and edgeguarding abilities.

(I agree with WN2's MK ratings.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZSS / MK should have 5 stars in advanage.
Sheik, Fox, DK, Luigi and a couple of others have 4.5.
Not sure about Rosaluma, she could be either 5 or 4.5.

Just came to a thought, what if a character's advantage depended on the character he was playing? For example, Kirby vs fox is amazing for kirby at early percent if he gets advantage, having a 60% combo (u-tilts u-air fastfall more u-tilts etc), but on characters like puff and rosa it would go from like a 4 star to s 2 star.

That is largely due to Fox' poor disadvantaged state. A lot of characters have "good" advantaged states against him.

Edit: An update for the up that sums up the progress we've made so far would be rad.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm going off this
http://smashboards.com/threads/greninjas-true-combos.375003/
Where the combos listed there are almost all 'yellow' as in hard to pull off, DI dependant etc.

How can you be so highly rated in advantage if almost every single kill set-up is by Greninja mains' own words 'hard to pull off'. Pretty much the only blue combos there rely off a u-air spike to set up KO's, but thats a pretty poor option comparatively when many characters bypass that and just straight kill you instead, at an earlier % with their uair.

I mean, Mewtwo mains could claim he has a top tier advantage game when he lands a hit confirm off disable but thats stretching it way too far, I think you're doing that with greninja too.

When other characters straight up kill you with an easy airdodge read or combo like DKs throw-uair, relying on hard-to-land moves to set up into your kill moves looks pretty mediocre.

That thread hasn't been updated since February, Greninja players have been getting better since then and even finding more kill setups; yellow also means that the combo can have a better alternative, D-Tilt -> F-Air is yellow because D-Tilt -> Up-Smash is better, not because it's hard to pull off. That list is pretty outdated by now.

His moves aren't even hard to land. D-Tilt especially. Also Mewtwo's disable is one move, Greninja has kill confirms out of most of his moves.

And Greninja can also kill people so easily out of an airdodge read, you really must not know anything about the character if you think he doesn't.