Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[Gawain]

Isn't this because unlike a lot of fighting games, noone is really 'terrible'? Everyone apart from a select few are good, but everyone above them is just better xD

Okay I take issue with this statement. Most fighting games that aren't Smash are way more balanced than Smash. GG for example has like a good third of the cast that can and do take big tournaments. UNIEL is even closer. Smash is far from the most balanced fighting game.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Okay I take issue with this statement. Most fighting games that aren't Smash are way more balanced than Smash. GG for example has like a good third of the cast that can and do take big tournaments. UNIEL is even closer. Smash is far from the most balanced fighting game.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that smash is more balanced per se, rather that a lot of fighter's DO have a completely invalid character, or something along those lines.

 

[Gawain]

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't saying that smash is more balanced per se, rather that a lot of fighter's DO have a completely invalid character, or something along those lines.

Other than joke characters that are intended to not be viable, like Dan, I can't really think of any. But this is really off topic.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Other than joke characters that are intended to not be viable, like Dan, I can't really think of any. But this is really off topic.

Agreed, we swiftly move onwards.

 

[bc1910]

I think once all the characters have been categorized it will be easier to re-evaluate others. If the list looks too top-heavy we can change it. Already I can see a few suspect characters at 4 stars or higher (Duck Hunt) who should probably be moved down to the more "average" ratings of 3 or 3.5.

Although, it is true that most characters have some good options in neutral that prevent their neutral games from being utter crap. Plus the generally higher mobility in this game than Brawl for example lends itself toward better neutral games. I don't think there ARE all that many characters with neutrals ranked 2 star or below, I can see why this list might end up top-heavy. In contrast I'm expecting the disadvantage list to end up pretty bottom-heavy as that's where a lot of characters fall down.

Anyway, I think a lot of the characters who have yet to be ranked such as Samus, Charizard and Shulk have pretty poor neutral games and will flesh out the lower end of the list.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can you give more detailed explanations for your opinions on these characters? Specifically Olimar, Wario, and Yoshi. Not saying that they are wrong or anything, I'm just interested in why you feel as though they should be in those places, lol (and to have more data for the thread)

@Olimar ... I'm not actually sure what's supposed to be great about his neutral game. It's good, probably a good bit above average but it's not great. Just compare the amount of options he has, the amount of damage they do and the stuff they set up for with that of the other 4.5 neutrals of Pikachu or Diddy or Fox. Is that actually the same level? Olimar does have a good grab and nice damage output but it's not like Pikachu who can throw all kinds of dumb **** on your shield and cover most of your defensive options simultaneously. He also can't do Fox stuff like nair -> guaranteed kill in neutral. It's not the same level.

@wario ... Bike is actually mostly a defensive tool because it's safe and can force approaches / cockblock projectiles. It helps his neutral game somewhat but it's the defensive applications that make the move such an important one in Wario's arsenal. It's fairly easy to evade from a neutral position, as an "approach" tool it's only good against those annoying projectile charaters like Pac-Man, Villager, DHD, Mega Man ... you name it. Bite is kind of a good option because you can mix it up with dair against opponents that like to shield a lot but a lot of characters - especially high and top tiers - can easily beat both options simultaneously with some utilt, usmash, uair, nair ... a character like Mario for example is threatened by none of these options and that's when you realize that Wario can definitely have his issues in neutral. Being able to kill out of neutral with fart is one of the few things that make neutral game better than mere average. It's his strong states in advantage and disadvantage that really make Wario a good character.

@Yoshi ... Yoshi players like to claim that his neutral game is average. That's obviously some massiv ********. One of the best nairs, one of the best dash attacks, great jab and a lot of potential reward out of very simple stuff [jab 1 -> dtilt -> DA is a thing against opponents that are just one inch off the ground] add up to a good neutral state. Also, Egg Lay IS an amazing command grab, no amount of Yoshi players trying to downplay that move will ever change it. The "shield > Yoshi" claims are stupid and exaggerated. A lot of characters struggle with shields. Yoshi does deal with them solidly, just not as good as some other characters may do. But those characters that deal better with them are top tier ... and they are top tier for a reason. At the end of the day Yoshi does have a really good neutral game, there's no denying that.

I think Roy and Marth both deserve a 3.5 maybe even 4.5

4.5 though?

I think 4 is about where characters start to be able to kind of "shut down" other characters merely on account of their neutral games. You know, stuff like Ganondorf technically being able to beat DHD but not actually managing to pull it off like, ever. Marth does that to whom? Roy does that to whom? 3.5 is fine for them, 4 would be too much and I'm not sure what you were thinking about with 4.5 ... Marth will still need his advantaged state in nearly all matchups. He's not like Diddy Kong who can just outlame half of the cast in neutral if **** gets serious.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I think Roy and Marth both deserve a 3.5 maybe even 4.5

They both can do alot of cool **** and can be very safe.

Marth and Roy weave the same though. There is one vid of NEO playing Roy and Lucina. The ground movement is unparalled. Max potential Marth and Roy move like they are dancing.

Unless they can shoot laser beams from their swords similar to Skyward Sword though, I don't think that they will have a 4.5 in Neutral. lol

Also, what do you think about Ryu's Neutral? I know that he is your main squeeze now, so I figure that you could give some good insight on him

I'm a bit concerned that there are too many positive neutral games and not enough people willing to admit their main characters are average or even bad.

If you start with the premise that this fighting game is balanced in all three aspect (not necessarily true) then there should be as a statistical normal distribution

68% of the cast as "Average". 55 characters total means 37 should be average. 15 should be distributed in the top or bottom and only 3 should be extremely low or high.

I still rate ☆ in neutral. For the reasons stated in the initial page of this thread. In terms of the basic play elements of the game, throwing out hitboxes, rolling, grabs, shield grab, projectiles, etc... she definitely is the worst.

I also personally believe Rosa's neutral is better than Sheik's. Shiek is better overall because of her greater advantage and disadvantage states.

True. People are more apt to sing the praises of their characters as opposed to their faults.

However, I don't think that this game is really all that balanced as people make it out to be. So, seeing inflated/deflated rankings in Neutral/Advantage/Disadvantage doesn't surprise me. And for right now, I feel as though that it is better to rank the characters on a "performance" level than a "by character" comparison, since it's more simple to understand and utilize for the posters in this topic as of right now. So, for right now, a statistical normal distribution isn't necessary. Though I will take it into possible consideration for the future.

Fair enough on Samus~

Yeah, Rosalina is the only character I felt as though could give Sheik a run for her money in the Neutral state. Luma makes everything she does absurdly safe...not necessarily because of the additional hitboxes and range (though they certainly help), but because it acts as a meat-shield for her and can invalidate a wide range of tools. Including projectiles.

If I know which character is considered middle of the road of that trait, I'd know what to compare it to.

I would tell you if I knew, but it is a little hard to determine what the "middle of the road" is when the road hasn't been fully paved yet

Once all of the characters have been added to the Neutral ranking, it should be easier to determine that. However, as of right now, I would say ★★★ is a fair assumption. Sheik kinda skews the rankings by being the only character in ★★★★★ currently, but at the same time, the bottom tiers kind of skew the middle as well. Since I doubt that most of the characters that haven't been added to the list yet have a Neutral as bad as , for example.

So, for now, I would just say to go with your gut feeling~ *shrugs*

I think once all the characters have been categorized it will be easier to re-evaluate others. If the list looks too top-heavy we can change it. Already I can see a few suspect characters at 4 stars or higher (Duck Hunt) who should probably be moved down to the more "average" ratings of 3 or 3.5.

Although, it is true that most characters have some good options in neutral that prevent their neutral games from being utter crap. Plus the generally higher mobility in this game than Brawl for example lends itself toward better neutral games. I don't think there ARE all that many characters with neutrals ranked 2 star or below, I can see why this list might end up top-heavy. In contrast I'm expecting the disadvantage list to end up pretty bottom-heavy as that's where a lot of characters fall down.

Anyway, I think a lot of the characters who have yet to be ranked such as Samus, Charizard and Shulk have pretty poor neutral games and will flesh out the lower end of the list.

My thoughts exactly, in regards to the first and second sentences. That's why I am trying to get more characters added to the list before I do major changes to the list atm.

In regards to the second paragraph, that is fine actually. As stated above, I think it might be best to work on a "by performance" level for now, since I can see these lists being top/bottom heavy. It doesn't really hurt anything, though. As long as it gives us a roughly-accurate view on how the metagame plays out, I don't mind.

PLUS, once we get all three lists done (will be a while from now though if the topic keeps going at this pace lol), we can potentially look at how the characters truly stack up to eachother. Which I look forward to.

Can you provide more detail for those three characters? Or at least Charizard and Shulk anyways, since @DungeonMaster has Samus covered

@Olimar ... I'm not actually sure what's supposed to be great about his neutral game. It's good, probably a good bit above average but it's not great. Just compare the amount of options he has, the amount of damage they do and the stuff they set up for with that of the other 4.5 neutrals of Pikachu or Diddy or Fox. Is that actually the same level? Olimar does have a good grab and nice damage output but it's not like Pikachu who can throw all kinds of dumb **** on your shield and cover most of your defensive options simultaneously. He also can't do Fox stuff like nair -> guaranteed kill in neutral. It's not the same level.

@wario ... Bike is actually mostly a defensive tool because it's safe and can force approaches / cockblock projectiles. It helps his neutral game somewhat but it's the defensive applications that make the move such an important one in Wario's arsenal. It's fairly easy to evade from a neutral position, as an "approach" tool it's only good against those annoying projectile charaters like Pac-Man, Villager, DHD, Mega Man ... you name it. Bite is kind of a good option because you can mix it up with dair against opponents that like to shield a lot but a lot of characters - especially high and top tiers - can easily beat both options simultaneously with some utilt, usmash, uair, nair ... a character like Mario for example is threatened by none of these options and that's when you realize that Wario can definitely have his issues in neutral. Being able to kill out of neutral with fart is one of the few things that make neutral game better than mere average. It's his strong states in advantage and disadvantage that really make Wario a good character.

@Yoshi ... Yoshi players like to claim that his neutral game is average. That's obviously some massiv ********. One of the best nairs, one of the best dash attacks, great jab and a lot of potential reward out of very simple stuff [jab 1 -> dtilt -> DA is a thing against opponents that are just one inch off the ground] add up to a good neutral state. Also, Egg Lay IS an amazing command grab, no amount of Yoshi players trying to downplay that move will ever change it. The "shield > Yoshi" claims are stupid and exaggerated. A lot of characters struggle with shields. Yoshi does deal with them solidly, just not as good as some other characters may do. But those characters that deal better with them are top tier ... and they are top tier for a reason. At the end of the day Yoshi does have a really good neutral game, there's no denying that.


4.5 though?

I think 4 is about where characters start to be able to kind of "shut down" other characters merely on account of their neutral games. You know, stuff like Ganondorf technically being able to beat DHD but not actually managing to pull it off like, ever. Marth does that to whom? Roy does that to whom? 3.5 is fine for them, 4 would be too much and I'm not sure what you were thinking about with 4.5 ... Marth will still need his advantaged state in nearly all matchups. He's not like Diddy Kong who can just outlame half of the cast in neutral if **** gets serious.

Good analyses on all three characters. I appreciate it!

Also to add to Yoshi's Neutral, Egg Toss is just a really damn good projectile in general. Maybe not the best in the game, though it is quite versatile. Not many characters can claim to possess an anti-air projectile, either.

And yeah, 4.5 Neutral for Marth/Roy is WAY too high imo.



Anywho, random note for this topic. If I feel as though the pace of this topic is still going pretty sluggishly by the end of this weekend (Sunday), I will mark the Neutral list as "unfinished" and move on to the next state: The ADVANTAGE state, to try to help spice up activity in this topic. Since I want to keep this topic going at a decent pace.

 

[DunnoBro]

I actually talked with NEO about Roy's neutral specifically a while back, he thinks it's pretty average.

I don't see how his neutral can be particularly good, myself. It's workable and has options but there's several tiers better neutrals.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu's neutral is weird and he doesnt conduct neutral like anyone else.

His neutral is almost entirely reactive.

Also I meant 4 not 4.5. idk why I put that for Marth and Roy. But 3.5 sounds good.

 

[Vyrnx]

@Olimar ... I'm not actually sure what's supposed to be great about his neutral game. It's good, probably a good bit above average but it's not great. Just compare the amount of options he has, the amount of damage they do and the stuff they set up for with that of the other 4.5 neutrals of Pikachu or Diddy or Fox. Is that actually the same level? Olimar does have a good grab and nice damage output but it's not like Pikachu who can throw all kinds of dumb **** on your shield and cover most of your defensive options simultaneously. He also can't do Fox stuff like nair -> guaranteed kill in neutral. It's not the same level.

If not 4.5, Olimar can't be lower than 4. There isn't any way. Olimar's neutral is great. If you watch videos of top Olimars like Myran and Dabuz, they can consistently win neutral against Diddys, even M2Ks. The problem here is that Olimar will still lose the match because when he does get into a disadvantaged state, it is just so bad. So then people confuse his disadvantaged state with his neutral. If you only look at his neutral, it is great. It's so incredibly hard to get in on an Olimar in the neutral (IMO the walliest character in the game, maybe second to Rosa) and once you do get in on an Olimar he has the best pivot grab in the game, and a really good gtfo jab that almost always combos into a grab, and ofc fsmash.

There's a lot of stuff being said like, "his neutral can't be one of the best because he doesn't have great OOS options." But we aren't talking about Fox who depends on his OOS for his close range neutral. 80% of Olimar's neutral game will be played at a distance where he doesn't ever have to shield, so he doesn't rely on OOS at all because he has one of the best long range pressure games in Smash 4. When people discount his neutral because of poor OOS, they are ignoring that to get to his shield you have to get past his side b and all of his mid range (and close range) anti approach options. And don't forget to talk about his side b when discussing his neutral, because even if it is one move, it's a really good move and it would make any character's neutral better. As for lacking safe on shield aerials (although a well spaced fair I believe is safe on some characters), Olimar doesn't need to use these because he doesn't have to approach.

Poor OOS keeps Olimar from being 4.5 most likely, but his neutral is far more than just "above average".

Also @Myran is active and probably wouldn't mind helping in this discussion. (Although if he disagrees with me that would be embarrassing lol)

 

[Nobie]

Part of what makes Mega Man difficult to rate in terms of neutral is that his very specific, unique set of tools means that he is a nightmare to some characters in neutral, an easier opponent to others, and this quality traverses the entire tier list. if you're Sheik, Mega Man ain't no thing (though not defenseless), but if you're Luigi? If you're a swordsman? If you're Wario? Suddenly Mega Man's pellets and drifting powers become an issue.

People talk about Luigi's issues with Mega Man, so let's go to Wario instead. A lot of people have talked about how Wario has an excellent neutral, because he has high aerial mobility, is rewarded for passive play due to Waft, and can power through projectiles with his bike. This is fine against most opponents. Mega Man, though, can almost match Wario in terms of aerial mobility, plays a ranged game that worries less about Chomp, and has a slew of projectiles that actually just outright beat Wario's bike. How do you judge a character that goes toe to toe or perhaps even better with a lot of characters people are rating highly in neutral, but does less well against certain others? Is it based on who dominates the tier list? Is it based on how likely you're going to face them in tournament?

Anyway, when it comes to Mega Man, rather than him having ★★★ at most, it should be ★★★ at least. Somewhere between ★★★ and ★★★★ is most likely, but because it's so dependent on the opponent it's more perhaps an average across opponents in the literal sense of adding numbers together and dividing by total amount of possible matchups.

 

[bc1910]

I actually talked with NEO about Roy's neutral specifically a while back, he thinks it's pretty average.

I don't see how his neutral can be particularly good, myself. It's workable and has options but there's several tiers better neutrals.

Agreeing with this. I don't believe Roy's neutral is anything too special and not as good as Marth's overall. He generally lacks safety, has awkward mobility (good top speeds but weird acceleration/deceleration behaviour and an awful dash to shield) and I think his good hit confirms are a pain to land against safe players. Whilst he can go down the "I'm safe on block now" route, it requires him to attack with his tippers which are exponentially less threatening to get hit by. Even tippered, a lot of his moves aren't safe. Dtilt and Nair seem to outclass his other options a lot with Nair being the best in terms of reward. I would suggest that 3 would be fine for Roy's neutral especially as safety on block is basically the reason Lucina is down there. No lower though because a lot of his moves are pretty safe on whiff and his mobility still has great technical specs.

@ ItsRainingGravy I was just referring to them as characters that jumped out at me as having poor neutral, I'm not an expert in either unfortunately. I see you have Shulk at 2 stars which seems fine but I couldn't offer much insight, other than his poor frame data and average mobility limiting him so much.

As I said I'm no expert but I would rank Charizard at 2 stars. He's huge and slow moving in the air, his only fast grounded options are jab and grab and a lot of his moveset is reactable. Awful landing lag on any aerial not autocanceled. He feels like "nah and grab: the character" a lot when I play him. Nair is a nice option for space coverage but not safe on block. I think his advantage and disadvantage states are a lot better but strictly from a neutral point of view I don't think Zard is very good. I could actually see him at 1.5 stars but I think his neutral is saved somewhat by a fast dash speed and the good autocancel on Fair and Nair. We should probably wait for some other opinions but yeah I could see 1.5 for him.

Also how come Peach is only a 2.5?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Of the characters not yet covered I think Luigi and Captain Falcon should both have ★★★★. Both characters have very smooth transitions from neutral into their very good advantaged states via dthrow [both backed by a very good dash grab]. They also have very good jabs which is always good to have. Falcon has great mobility and Luigi has a pretty good projectile so I think their neutral states are about equal and rank alongside characters that are clearly better than average.

Greninja feels a bit out of place at ★★★★. I'd bump him down to 3.5, I don't think his neutral is better than Marth's. They're pretty equal in my book.

As I said I'm no expert but I would rank Charizard at 2 stars. He's huge and slow moving in the air, his only fast grounded options are jab and grab and a lot of his moveset is reactable. Awful landing lag on any aerial not autocanceled. He feels like "nah and grab: the character" a lot when I play him. Nair is a nice option for space coverage but not safe on block. I think his advantage and disadvantage states are a lot better but strictly from a neutral point of view I don't think Zard is very good. I could actually see him at 1.5 stars but I think his neutral is saved somewhat by a fast dash speed and the good autocancel on Fair and Nair. We should probably wait for some other opinions but yeah I could see 1.5 for him.

Jab and grab are two very important options in neutral though. A good jab is the ultimate bread and butter tool and a good grab is the key from getting out of neutral and into advantage. Since Charizard's advantaged state is pretty solid I think that's definitely a plus. He's also somewhat fast on the ground and not actually that huge [he's not actually very tall while standing, he ducks while dashing and his wings don't have a hurtbox]. His dtilt is also quite a decent tool in neutral ... I don't think 2 would be enough for him. I'd give him 2.5 or maybe even 3.

 

[DunnoBro]

Of the characters not yet covered I think Luigi and Captain Falcon should both have ★★★★. Both characters have very smooth transitions from neutral into their very good advantaged states via dthrow [both backed by a very good dash grab]. They also have very good jabs which is always good to have. Falcon has great mobility and Luigi has a pretty good projectile so I think their neutral states are about equal and rank alongside characters that are clearly better than average.

Hmm... Falcon I can see due to his mobility, bair, jab, and dash grab.

Luigi on the other hand is a little difficult to place...

His neutral easily stuffs out some characters like mario, pikachu, etc. But it's via stationary/boost movement options like fireball, dash grab, jab, and fox trots that are less effective vs opponents that have stuffing/long range options.

Though you're right, luigi's superb advantage state definitely leaks into his neutral as people just can't afford to fight him at certain distances.

I think it's possible it might be 3.5, and we're just not noticing how little he actually needs to win the neutral though.

 

[bc1910]

I can agree with Falcon having a 4 star neutral but it might be more like 3.5, it can be a bit linear. Jab, DA, DG and Bair are amazing though.

Massive generalisation but I think other characters who have a "Falconing" style neutral based around DA, DG, fast dash speed and backward rolls are not as good at it because they lack the supplementing options of jab and Bair and their own unique options tend not to be as good. Plus their dash speed will always be slower since the only char faster than Falcon is Sonic who plays neutral differently. So like, Roy and MK, they're pretty at home with a slightly lower star rating than Falcon IMO because their neutrals are similar but not quite as good.

Isn't Charizard the widest character? He's pretty damn big. Though huge might be wrong since he is smaller than Bowser and maybe DK/D3.

But yeah jab and grab are indeed great and I think he has a good advantage state as well. Not sure how much it leaks into his neutral though.

EDIT: Flamethrower is pretty annoying too at times. 2.5 might be fair.

 

[Trifroze]

I like how everyone missed the fact we should be talking about advantage now.

well then

Falcon's neutral definitely isn't worse than 4 as it's the strongest quality he has along with his advantage (which I think isn't any better in relation). Considering that his disadvantage is basically 1 and his advantage is definitely not 5, he wouldn't be a top ~12 character if his neutral was only 3.5 or less. However this is not the main argument I have for it, just painting the picture here.

Firstly we need to completely forget the notion that Falcon loses to crouching. His main tools in neutral are DG, DA, bair and jab all of which are basically the best or among the best moves of their kind, and the only thing that suffers from crouching is his DG. Jab is a defensive option that you throw out basically whenever you want to, but it's not something you approach with whether your opponent is crouching or not, so crouch does nothing to that option. DA's primary hitbox (first few frames) hits every crouch in all of their idle animations except WFT, and bair hits all the way to the ground. So your opponent crouching gives them this many options: 0, while Falcon can stay in mid range and throw out safe bairs or charge in with unreactable dash attacks.

Falcon's gameplan is to stay in mid range and charge in with DG/DA 50:50s while baiting out stuff with his speed and throwing out safe aerials on your shield. He's pretty much the embodiment of bait and punish in Smash 4 and although it's very simple, it's also effective because you can't do anything about it except try to guess right instead of guessing wrong or being baited into an even worse commitment. Reacting isn't really an option and keeping Falcon out is hard for the large majority, and in most matchups Falcon can pressure you in mid range more than you can pressure him. As cheesy as it is, Falcon's rolls are good and froll into jab is something that still works and will probably keep on working in the future. It's his only good OoS option aside from grab, but a reliable and rewarding one, and simply holding jab can cover many options in some very common scenarios.

I main Falcon and ZSS, and after a month with ZSS (about 600 matches) I still think her neutral is much harder to play and in most matchups weaker in comparison, so depending on how everything goes, Falcon's neutral should be 4 or 4.5. Let's not confuse simple with bad, as we aren't doing it with Sonic either.

 

[FullMoon]

I like how everyone missed the fact we should be talking about advantage now.

Anywho, random note for this topic. If I feel as though the pace of this topic is still going pretty sluggishly by the end of this weekend (Sunday), I will mark the Neutral list as "unfinished" and move on to the next state: The ADVANTAGE state, to try to help spice up activity in this topic. Since I want to keep this topic going at a decent pace.

And I think Greninja's neutral would be better than Marth's just because he has a really fast travelling and very disruptive projectile that is especially spammable now, as well having better overall mobility. Marth has range and all, but he can't really force approaches as well as Greninja does.

 

[bc1910]

4.5 is probably stretching it for Falcon because he's not Diddy level, I think 4 would be fine for him.

 

[Trifroze]

4.5 is probably stretching it for Falcon because he's not Diddy level, I think 4 would be fine for him.

On the contrary I think he's better than ZSS, Ness or Wario and as good as Pikachu who's considered 4.5, and it's really a matter of how many (and what kind of) characters 4.5 will have. I think Sonic, Diddy and Rosalina are unfair comparisons since if a class between 4.5 and 5 existed they'd probably be there.

 

[bc1910]

There's been quite a lot of argument to move Ness down to 3.5 (I agree) and opinion on ZSS varies a lot. I'm not sure about Wario.

I don't think Falcon's neutral is better than Greninja's. I think they're actually pretty similar in terms of overall strength in neutral and 4 fits them very well.

This might be a case of moving certain characters like Diddy and Pikachu to 5 star I guess, and leaving Sheik with her "special" star rating. But I'm so not keen on that since Sheik really does have unparalleled safety and freedom in the neutral state. No-one else can match the safety of her pokes, and needles are needles. I honestly think she's the only 5 star character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Falcon's neutral is no better than Pikachu's, who's super flexible, mobile, and has a projectile.


Just commenting that whatever Neutral Rank Falcon gets, Meta Knight might possibly be right next to him.
MK's might be slightly better because his neutral options are key to immediately convert into his huge advantaged state, but not sure if it's so much better to warrant even a .5 over the Captain.

 

[Browny]

OKAY SO, as you might've guessed, the topic is currently a mess right now.

It's nobody's fault however. Since this is an experimental topic, we are still learning. And, in my opinion, the original formula of going through characters incrementally for more accurate results...isn't really working as intended. And for multiple reasons.

SO INSTEAD, we are going to be using @ ぱみゅ 's idea for now. Since I think that it would be easy enough for everybody to understand, and it will allow people to discuss all of the characters in the game.

Here is his post~


As of right now, we are going to be discussing the NEUTRAL state!

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (template)

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Please note that this isn't EXACTLY based on a performance level. Instead, it is based upon where they rank in comparison to the other 54 characters in the game. Additionally, for the ☆ Star Rating, 10 characters can be in there instead of 5...as of right now anyways. Once more characters are added to the roster, I will add a ★★★★★★ Star Rating to help split the rankings up more evenly. OR...I could go ahead and do that if enough people want me to~

The rankings above were loosely based on the opinions thus far in this topic, so your stars/opinions haven't gone to waste


I apologize for the really bumpy start we've been having. But I am sure that as long as we remain patient, things will smooth out a lot more in the future. And I also apologize for not responding to everyone yet/for changing the rules of this topic so quickly. But I also want to thank everyone who has participated in this topic so far. Your support is greatly appreciated, and hopefully this topic will get better and better as time goes by!

Hopefully this new formula works out better. Anyways, begin discussing/debating how the characters rank in the NEUTRAL state!

... How can DDD have a 2-star neutral while Mewtwo has 1.

I mean like just think about that for a second. You can stand still with just about anyone and DDD is at the disadvantage in neutral when you can jab gordos back at him or punish him for doing literally anything.

Whatever its your thread you can do what you want... I just dont see how a character with a powerful projectile, a safe-on-block fast poke and a REFLECTOR is rated 1 star in neutral.

I'm not looking for anyone to debate 'Mewtwo is bad in neutral because hes low tier' I mean a comparison in to how having that combination of tools in neutral makes someone 1 star.

How does DDD cope with a camping samus, and now think about how Mewtwo deals with a camping samus. If your conclusion is that DDD has better tools to deal with that scenario... then I'll quietly leave this thread forever.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

For now, we are still on the NEUTRAL state

It's picking up a little bit of pace, but as @ FullMoon pointed out, we may switch to discussing the ADVANTAGE state after Sunday if we are unable to get the remaining characters on the list~

Anywho, update time!

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (Results, Part 3)

( ✪ = )
★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Explanations~

Still the Queen of Neutral. Nothing new here. However, as a reminder, the ✪ symbol means that, even if another character is added to Rank ★★★★★, Sheik will still be recognized as the creme of the crop. So far, the only characters I would add to Rank ★★★★★ would be and/or , though I would like more opinions on this before I decide to do anything.

Dropped a little because he lacks an OoS Up B, and his neutral isn't QUITE as bonkers as the characters above him. However, since Pikmin are still a nuisance, especially in Side B, he will remain at Rank ★★★★.

One of the new kids on the block. Great mobility specs combined with great spacing tools in Ftilt, Jab, Dtilt, Dash Attack, Bair, and Dash Grab to name a few. Uair and Nair are also pretty potent as well, with the latter converting into a grab at literally any percent if you land just the first hit. Is Rank ★★★★ for now.

Another new character. Most of you know the drill for this guy, though. Fireballs and Dash Grabs. Past that, he's got the best frame data in the game with tools like Nair/Fair/Bair/Uair/Jab/Usmash, and he also has a burst mobility option in Luigi Cyclone. However, his poor mobility specs might hold him back from anything greater than Rank ★★★☆.

Dropped down to Rank ★★★, due to numerous people claiming that his Neutral isn't as great at Marth's. Main reasons because he lacks range, AC Aerials, and airdodge options out of a short hop. He still has great mobility specs, though they don't seem to be enough to cover his lack of options in other areas.

Last new character for now. AC Fair and Nair, Flamethrower, amazing grab, great dash speed, and Jab are his strongest traits for Neutral. He also has Super Armor on his Rock Smash to help him in tight spots, and Up B OoS. Huge landing lag on his other aerials will keep him from being any higher, though. So he's in Rank ★★☆ for now.

With his ability to force approaches with Shadow Ball, and possessing decent mobility specs, I felt as though Rank ★ was a bit too low for him. He definitely does has his flaws though, so I only bumped him up a little bit. I felt as though him being with D3 and Shulk was fine for now, though player opinion and more data can always shift character placements in the future.

Huge drop for the PSI Kid. He has OoS Nair, Grab, and Fair, but he's pretty limited in regards to his other spacing options. Lack of an OoS Up B also hurts a little. What hurts even more is his poor range and mobility specs. So much so that he dropped from Rank ★★★★ to Rank ★☆. Since I am unsure of his placement in the lower Ranks, I just put him with Zelda for now. His placement could shift depending on people's opinions, though it was almost unanimous that his Neutral is not that great. Anywhere from ★★☆ down, but no higher than that.

Speaking of Zelda, I do feel as though that Ness has a better Neutral than her. Which makes me want to drop her a Rank, and just keep Ness where he is. Though I will wait on more opinions before I do anything.

Bumped him up a little bit too, if only because I feel as though his Neutral is better than Jigglypuff's and Samus's. He's got range, and loves to trade with his opponents because of his sheer damage output. He's also got an okay command grab which can lead to techchase scenarios. All things considered though, he's still pretty bad in the Neutral no matter how you slice it. Poor frame data and mobility specs will always hold him back.

Re-added her to the list. Unsafe Jab, slow grab, cruddy projectiles (other than fully charged Neutral B), meh aerials, and slow mobility specs all hurt her in the Neutral. She does have a frame 10 Fsmash and a decent Ftilt, but not much beyond that.


Characters that received some discussion but I'm not sure about moving them yet w/o more opinions:

 

[Trifroze]

Falcon's neutral is no better than Pikachu's, who's super flexible, mobile, and has a projectile.

Just commenting that whatever Neutral Rank Falcon gets, Meta Knight might possibly be right next to him.
MK's might be slightly better because his neutral options are key to immediately convert into his huge advantaged state, but not sure if it's so much better to warrant even a .5 over the Captain.

The conversions that MK gets off of his hits have nothing to do with his neutral, and if we start looking at neutral like this then characters with strong advantage automatically have a stronger neutral because they have threatening conversions, and characters with stronger disadvantage also have a stronger neutral because they don't have to be as afraid of risks.

MK's neutral really is just a worse version of Falcon's because he plays neutral the same way but lacks the safe aerials Falcon has while possessing less speed and shorter dash grab range. The reason MK is considered as good as Falcon overall is because his recovery and landing options are very clearly so much better while his advantage is about as good or stronger, having lower damage output but more reliable kill setups and better edgeguarding.

Let's think about this; if MK's neutral is as strong as Falcon's let alone stronger, what's stopping this character from being better than everyone in the game except possibly Sheik?

EDIT: Zair and dtilt are really good for spacing with Samus. Her aerials are also the best part of her moveset, with only nair being meh but still having it's uses. Everything except fair autocancels, bair and nair are safe on shield on basically anyone and full hop fair walls people out combined with her high aerial mobility (can use another aerial like nair before landing). Falling uair to up b sets up frametraps, the latter of which is a great OoS option as well. DA is also good for punishes, it's basically Falcon's DA but with 3 frames more startup and less endlag allowing reliable conversions (irrelevant for neutral though).

Samus' neutral is her weakest area but it's by far not among the worst neutrals in the game. Not to be rude but people really underrate this character solely because of inexperience.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Also how come Peach is only a 2.5?

Not too many opinions on her yet~

That, and I placed her there because someone else felt as though she should be there.

Speaking of which...

... How can DDD have a 2-star neutral while Mewtwo has 1.

I mean like just think about that for a second. You can stand still with just about anyone and DDD is at the disadvantage in neutral when you can jab gordos back at him or punish him for doing literally anything.

Whatever its your thread you can do what you want... I just dont see how a character with a powerful projectile, a safe-on-block fast poke and a REFLECTOR is rated 1 star in neutral.

I'm not looking for anyone to debate 'Mewtwo is bad in neutral because hes low tier' I mean a comparison in to how having that combination of tools in neutral makes someone 1 star.

How does DDD cope with a camping samus, and now think about how Mewtwo deals with a camping samus. If your conclusion is that DDD has better tools to deal with that scenario... then I'll quietly leave this thread forever.

Do note that I try to keep my own personal opinions out of the rankings as much as possible, since I want the rankings to be based upon the data and opinions collected in this topic, and not my own personal bias. Mewtwo was only added in Rank ★, at the time, because someone ELSE felt as though he should've been there. Not that I am pointing my fingers at him or anything, though I do feel as though you should take a step back and realize that this topic is a group effort.

Rather than you taking out your personal grievances with anybody with little provocation, calmly look over the data and offer your opinions in a rational manner. It takes time for lists like these to begin looking "acceptable" for most people, and even then, placements can always shift depending on new opinions and data.

If you notice the new updated Rankings, I did move Mewtwo up, since I myself felt as though Mewtwo was too low. It's not like I have a personal vendetta against him and placed him there because "lol he's low tier" or anything like that. I only had him in the spot he was previously because that's where he ended up at the time being.

Your cooperation is appreciated

 

[DanGR]

You can have options in advantage that are so strong that you force opponents to play an over-the-top safe neutral, with them trying their hardest to avoid just a couple options that lead to a huge disadvantaged state for them. For Rosalina vs MK, this means avoiding dash attack at early percents at all costs besides dying. You give up a lot by playing around that option, strengthening MK's neutral drastically, and weakening his advantaged state a decent amount.

"Neutral" has always been "Neutral + playing around possible advantaged/disadvantaged states."

Just something to think about.

Let's think about this; if MK's neutral is as strong as Falcon's let alone stronger, what's stopping this character from being better than everyone in the game except possibly Sheik?

MK's skill barrier.

 

[Trifroze]

You can have options in advantage that are so strong that you force opponents to play an over-the-top safe neutral, with them trying their hardest to avoid just a couple options that lead to a huge disadvantaged state for them. For Rosalina vs MK, this means avoiding dash attack at early percents at all costs besides dying. You give up a lot by playing around that option, strengthening MK's neutral drastically, and weakening his advantaged state a decent amount.

Just something to think about.

Shouldn't this easily put ZSS to at least 4.5? You have to avoid grab between 30-55, nair between 30-90, grab again after about 120 (without rage 80-120 as well because dthrow to bair) as well as dsmash and paralyzer at virtually any percent after 30, or you're dead unless ZSS makes a mistake, much like you're dead from MK's dash attack at 25-35 and 80-110 unless they make a mistake. MK's DA is easier to land as a single move, but ZSS has more options at more percent ranges some of which are much safer. Add DK and Luigi into this bunch as well.

MK's skill barrier.

I think that's somewhat of a cop-out and shouldn't be used as an argument unless we're talking about someone who's clearly much more difficult than the rest of the cast. Even someone like Ryu barely makes the cut in my opinion.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK kills alot some characters at 10-20% or 0-10%

 

[bc1910]

I feel like Ness is WAY too low now. Dropping to 3.5, 3 or maybe 2.5 sure, but his neutral is not SO bad. 1.5 is really low. He'd be invalidated at the neutral level by the 5, 4.5 and maybe even 4 stars if his neutral was really that bad.

I'm in agreement that Browny's response was a tad aggressive but I do agree that Mewtwo's neutral is not that bad. He has a reflector, a great projectile, good frame data on his jab and grab, some fast aerials and good range. He's let down by bad hitboxes, some pretty slow attacks and other stuff like his bad double jump, floatiness and poor weight/hurtbox, though some of that bleeds into his disadvantage state. Perhaps a 2 or 2.5 star rating for his neutral?

I don't think Greninja needs to be moved, I just think he's useful to discuss as a 4 star benchmark. Rosie and Diddy seem fine too but it depends how we play things with Sheik.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Just commenting that whatever Neutral Rank Falcon gets, Meta Knight might possibly be right next to him.
MK's might be slightly better because his neutral options are key to immediately convert into his huge advantaged state, but not sure if it's so much better to warrant even a .5 over the Captain.

Actually, what are MKs outstanding options in neutral? I understand that DA + Dash Grab give him great coverage out of a dash but his jab and tilts aren't anything special. So the way I see it MK has a.) good options out of a dash b.) smooth transition into advantaged state and c.) pivot fsmash which looks like a strong defensive option. That doesn't add up to a neutral game that allows MK to overwhelm characters in neutral tbh. I think 3.5 would be enough for him.

You can stand still with just about anyone and DDD is at the disadvantage in neutral when you can jab gordos back at him or punish him for doing literally anything.

... you haven't played against a good DDD yet, have you?

 

[DanGR]

Shouldn't this easily put ZSS to at least 4.5? You have to avoid grab between 30-55, nair between 30-90, grab again after about 120 (without rage 80-120 as well because dthrow to bair) as well as dsmash and paralyzer at virtually any percent after 30, or you're dead unless ZSS makes a mistake, much like you're dead from MK's dash attack at 25-35 and 80-110 unless they make a mistake. MK's DA is easier to land as a single move, but ZSS has more options at more percent ranges some of which are much safer. Add DK and Luigi into this bunch as well.

I don't think ZSS' neutral is as bad as some people claim, for these reasons. 4 seems more reasonable to me, still though. MK has much stricter % intervals for his kill combos to work. These combos (and others) help make his neutral more threatening, but that doesn't take away from his inability pressure with aerials out of a short hop very well, and his pretty limited option pool in neutral in general. He seems to rely on the pressure from conversions off a couple different attacks to get things done, whereas ZSS can combo from more varied attacks and has more varied ways to threaten space. Gheb's 3.5 star rating seems reasonable for MK. Regardless of the moves you have to avoid to not get killed, you get hit less in neutral against MK & ZSS than rosalina, diddy, sonic, fox, etc.

I think that's somewhat of a cop-out and shouldn't be used as an argument unless we're talking about someone who's clearly much more difficult than the rest of the cast. Even someone like Ryu barely makes the cut in my opinion.

I didn't mean that the character is too difficult to play. My bad. Just his players haven't come close to optimizing his conversions, bar maybe LEO who looks like he's miles and miles ahead of every other MK player I've seen. And before anyone asks, yes the hype is real.

 

[Trifroze]

I don't think ZSS' neutral is as bad as some people claim, for these reasons. 4 seems more reasonable to me, still though. MK has much stricter % intervals for his kill combos to work. These combos (and others) help make his neutral more threatening, but that doesn't take away from his inability pressure with aerials out of a short hop very well, and his pretty limited option pool in neutral in general. He seems to rely on the pressure from conversions off a couple different attacks to get things done, whereas ZSS can combo from more varied attacks and has more varied ways to threaten space. Gheb's 3.5 star rating seems reasonable for MK. Regardless of the moves you have to avoid to not get killed, you get hit less in neutral against MK & ZSS than rosalina, diddy, sonic, fox, etc.

I do agree with what you're saying as well as with the ratings, it's mainly that the threat of a powerful advantage is very complicated to measure in neutral. An exceptionally scary setup essentially means that you can't take risks versus that character during the time the threat is apparent, but in optimal play would risks be taken in neutral regardless of whether that threat existed or not? Of course it'd be naive to say that there could be a playstyle where risk isn't beneficial let alone inevitable sometimes, but the effect of having to avoid those risks at all costs really changes based on the matchup and often isn't that huge because most characters still retain the key tools/attributes that cause them to have either a good or a bad neutral game. You either have to take the risks regardless if you want to get anything done, or the optimal way to play with your character would be to not take considerable risks whether the threat was present or not.

On the contrary if a character has a setup that works at a relatively narrow range like DK's ding dong kill, you do have to avoid it at all costs, but at the same time you know that's all DK is going to be trying to fish for during that entire time. It's largely both sided, you both will have a very simple goal and thus a simple playstyle during this period but you still most likely retain more tools than DK if that was also the case before the situation. If you get hit by anything else, it's not really a big deal because at least you're past the critical range now, and that's really all the benefit that DK gets from it in terms of neutral. About 20-30% of slightly easier damage because you were expecting something else.

 

[RayNoire]

Originally I put Mewtwo's neutral at 2 stars, but then I heard that we were supposed to put 5 characters in each rating, with 1/2 star having 10. Apparently that idea was forgotten or...?

Because there's definitely not 20 characters with worse neutral than Mewtwo.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Originally I put Mewtwo's neutral at 2 stars, but then I heard that we were supposed to put 5 characters in each rating, with 1/2 star having 10. Apparently that idea was forgotten or...?

Because there's definitely not 20 characters with worse neutral than Mewtwo.

The idea, for now, is put on the back-burner. Since I am not sure if the Ranks should be performance based, or by-character based. Probably the former, though.

Currently, it is going by a "performance based" listing, since people have a much easier time working with it that way. Plus, since it will probably be more helpful to look at it that way (for comparison purposes competitively), it takes precedence.

Originally, I was afraid of using a "by performance" listing, because I feared as though it would've been too broad and people might've disputed about how many "ranks" there should be. A "by character" list would've avoided this issue. But, as of right now, everything seems to be working just fine with the current way it is being handled. Thus, there's no need to switch back to the old method as of right now.

Hope that clears things up

 

[warionumbah2]

Just his players haven't come close to optimizing his conversions, bar maybe LEO who looks like he's miles and miles ahead of every other MK player I've seen. .

You triggered me so hard.

http://www.twitch.tv/landiego/v/14341183

skip to 1:54:42

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus's neutral isn't good but it is better than Zelda, Jiggly, Ganon, G&W, etc. I would put it somewhere in the 1.5ish area. Maybe 2. The strong points of her neutral are definitely not fsmash and ftilt, they're zair, dash attack, up b OOS, and a very good SHAD with many ways to act out of it--mainly uair, which is a good aerial. This is enough to make her better in the neutral than the characters I mentioned earlier. Also good but not quite as good are bombs, missiles (still projectiles even if they aren't amazing. They still function very similarly to most projectiles as far as neutrals go), bair sweet spot (safe on shield and lots of shield damage), and dair (also safe on shield). Bair isn't a huge deal because it can be challenging to land on many characters.

Also we should discuss G&W. I feel like his neutral is awful, maybe half a star. Nothing good oos, a pretty bad grab, and very unsafe aerials. No good projectiles, can get camped very easily, and bad range. His dash attack is one of the only things going for him. This character would be good except for his neutral, which I think actually makes a case for being the worst.

Whoever does earn the title of worst neutral should get zero stars. Just a thought, somebody has to.

 

[Browny]

... you haven't played against a good DDD yet, have you?

You [forum member] have never played against a good [character] yet have you? The classic one-size-fits-all response.

My claim remains. If people believe that a DDD has better options to deal with hard-camping enemies in neutral than Mewtwo, then I am done here. Its called respectfully disagreeing, not being mad or attacking.

Same for @ ItsRainingGravy my post isn't 'taking out personal grievances', I literally asked two questions. Questions that I believe if unable to be answered, defeat the entire purpose of this thread. But you did answer it, so nothings wrong?

I want this thread to be different to how traditional tiers are voted on in smash bros where its simply public opinion averaged out since you have to remember that ratings are all relative to the cast. It seems like many opinions in this thread were considering characters in a vacuum, or simply comparing them to Sheik. Mewtwo might have a bad neutral when compared to fox but not every character in the game is fast and running around with a reflector. Considering how many characters in this game employ a 'camping/zoning' playstyle, having a projectile that eats through almost everything in the game and a reflector already makes a massive difference.

When you take all the opinions and average them out and you find that Ike is in the same tier as Mario (again, packing a projectile and a reflector) do you take a step back and think 'hey... this isnt right, someone needs to move, one was either voted too high or too low'?

I don't personally see how marth/ike/lucina/roy deserve to be that high when they have no way to stop reliably projectiles aimed at their landing or approaches and their approaches are highly committal. I would have imagined having a projectile, reflector or safe approach are the 3 things that give a huge boost in neutral and not having those puts you at a massive disadvantage to characters that have 1, 2 or all of those things.

 

[san.]

When you take all the opinions and average them out and you find that Ike is in the same tier as Mario (again, packing a projectile and a reflector) do you take a step back and think 'hey... this isnt right, someone needs to move, one was either voted too high or too low'?

Mario is too low, 3.5 seems like a joke to me. Frame 2 jab, fast global evasive options (roll/dodges/etc), good OoS, fast aerials, good specials, decent ground speed, good air speed. He lacks quick+long range moves when he's in the air, so he needs to get a little closer for some of his attacks that aren't bair.

Ike is decent at most ranges with jabs, tilts, and aerials that cover multiple ranges. His weight makes up for some of the risk:reward decisions which bumped it up from a 3 imo. His unique quirk in neutral is that his best spacing moves are also his best combo starters. He doesn't even need to try to grab when he can spam dtilt or some of his aerials.

I don't personally see how marth/ike/lucina/roy deserve to be that high when they have no way to stop reliably projectiles aimed at their landing or approaches and their approaches are highly committal. I would have imagined having a projectile, reflector or safe approach are the 3 things that give a huge boost in neutral and not having those puts you at a massive disadvantage to characters that have 1, 2 or all of those things.

Ike can slice through projectiles with his aerials or dash attack. Unlike Roy and Marth's 16 frame dash->shield, Ike's is frame 10 and he can immediately punish OoS (preferably power shield). It's not as easy as it seems to throw out a projectile as Ike is attacking you since many have a decent amount of startup. In some situations, a dash attack clanks with the projectile, causing 24 damage on the opponent.

Only good projectiles boost your neutral a lot, and not many projectiles have good frame data. 3.5 is slightly above average, which fits Ike imo. Ike needs to be baited, but the Ike can also choose not to attack. Ike's jab is a bit less committal than Roy's/Marth's because Ike has the choice of cancelling it into his frame 3 jab2.

This is for later on, but Ike's advantage should probably be 4 at most though, looking at the competition he's up against. At the time I said it was 4.5, I was thinking that 4.5 encompassed #6-12 or something in the game and felt he was around the #10-12 area, and even that may not be true once more details come out.

 

[Gawain]

I can agree with Falcon having a 4 star neutral but it might be more like 3.5, it can be a bit linear. Jab, DA, DG and Bair are amazing though.

Massive generalisation but I think other characters who have a "Falconing" style neutral based around DA, DG, fast dash speed and backward rolls are not as good at it because they lack the supplementing options of jab and Bair and their own unique options tend not to be as good. Plus their dash speed will always be slower since the only char faster than Falcon is Sonic who plays neutral differently. So like, Roy and MK, they're pretty at home with a slightly lower star rating than Falcon IMO because their neutrals are similar but not quite as good.

Isn't Charizard the widest character? He's pretty damn big. Though huge might be wrong since he is smaller than Bowser and maybe DK/D3.

But yeah jab and grab are indeed great and I think he has a good advantage state as well. Not sure how much it leaks into his neutral though.

EDIT: Flamethrower is pretty annoying too at times. 2.5 might be fair.

Quick comment but the whole comparison of Roy to Falcon is way, way off base. Roys dash attack is awful. IMO, He relies on staying nearby and hitting the opponents shield or their body with fairs dtilts and nairs until he gets a chance to grab or jab. He isn't nearly as bait-y as Falcon. He has way better ledge coverage and doesn't use his throw to combo into kills as much as Falcon (though he still does). I'm not even sure where the whole Falcon With a Sword thing started to be honest. But it had stayed through lack of real representation of Roy.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Actually, what are MKs outstanding options in neutral? I understand that DA + Dash Grab give him great coverage out of a dash but his jab and tilts aren't anything special. So the way I see it MK has a.) good options out of a dash b.) smooth transition into advantaged state and c.) pivot fsmash which looks like a strong defensive option. That doesn't add up to a neutral game that allows MK to overwhelm characters in neutral tbh. I think 3.5 would be enough for him.

His tilts are pretty good actually, Dtilt has good horizontal range (RIP Brawl's vertical range), and Ftilt isn't a huge commitment anymore (though still pretty significant), Fsmash is a nice baiting move, his rolls are all fast enough to bait movements, and then again, his Dash Attack and his grabs are pretty powerful.
Falcon has huge disjoints, but other than Bair, he isn't throwing a lot of moves either.
Their game plans are very similar, and even if one has slight advantages or benefits over the other I am not sure if either warrants even a .5 rating over the other.