Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[Trifroze]

If shield pressure is a part of advantage what are OoS options?

 

[Pazx]

It's not black and white.

If Falco is shine pressuring my shield (), I'm in disadvantage. If Diddy spaces a fair well and hits my shield, we're probably both in neutral. Similarly, having good OoS options makes things like dash -> shield safer and a better option thus improving a character's neutral but they also improve disadvantage for obvious reasons.

 

[Sykkamorre]

While I'm not sure of the actual rating i'd give him, it's probably worth noting that Doc has possibly the best OoS upB in the game.

It's super fast, high damage, massive hitbox, good at the ledge and literally DESTROYS a lot of multi hit moves, hitting ness up to three times if he PK Fire's at close range and often hitting other characters twice out of rapid jabs.

For those slightly confused by my tired ramblings, have a quick peek in the doc boards and you should be able to find a thread about the use of UpB.

 

[Guesmu]

Shield stun made diddy so good! He is one of my mains!

 

[Emblem Lord]

If shield pressure is a part of advantage what are OoS options?

Disadvantage

This wasn't obvious? No disrespect, as I'm honestly curious.

When Ryu is blocking in a traditional SF game and he manages to bust out a Shoryuken reversal in a loose block string, that's one of his defensive options. Having a strong reversal.

Strong OoS options are very similar. The ability to turn around your DISADVANTAGE when you are being pressured. With the latest patch, Smash 4 is actually now much more in line with traditional fighters in that regard. Sitting in your shield is a bad thing and people hitting buttons when you are blocking puts you at a disadvantage.

 

[Trifroze]

Disadvantage

This wasn't obvious? No disrespect, as I'm honestly curious.

When Ryu is blocking in a traditional SF game and he manages to bust out a Shoryuken reversal in a loose block string, that's one of his defensive options. Having a strong reversal.

Strong OoS options are very similar. The ability to turn around your DISADVANTAGE when you are being pressured. With the latest patch, Smash 4 is actually now much more in line with traditional fighters in that regard. Sitting in your shield is a bad thing and people hitting buttons when you are blocking puts you at a disadvantage.

I can see how blocking is a clear disadvantage in SF because you have actual block strings, high/low mixups and overheads, the ability to maintain your opponent's stun and to even damage them through block.

In Smash 4 it's really nothing like that despite the patch, even some jab combos can be interrupted with a 7 frame grab. I consider OoS options a part of neutral because on average OoS options are about as dangerous as shield pressure is since the latter straight up doesn't exist for most characters. After 1.1.1 pretty much everyone can safely hit shield with something without getting punished if they space correctly but it hardly qualifies as something that would put them into any sort of advantage (and conversely it doesn't put the opponent into disadvantage).

In SF you get actual frame advantage for hitting a blocking opponent but in Smash 4 you can hardly frametrap them with characters who have the safest shield pressure in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you block you are not in neutral. You just committed to a defensive action.

How are you not at disadvantage?

And frame advantage does exist in this game. But alot of what its based on is your spacing with your opponents fastest possible OoS option factored into the equation.

Ryu for example doesnt care if you block a dtilt now. He will just keep going. Try to grab and if will just combo you. It's now a natural frame trap. This allows him to create true mix-up scenarios where you eat a block string, maybe get grabbed, maybe get shield broken by Collarbone Breaker or he stops and tries to bait something he can punish hard with a fat combo or SRK for a kill.

Others like ZSS with her nair and zair can create strong shield pressure based offense.

Just gotta know how to work the numbers.

 

[NegaNixx]

If you block you are not in neutral. You just committed to a defensive action.

How are you not at disadvantage?

I don't agree with this part, committing a defensive option does not mean you're in disadvantage. Defense doesn't mean you're under the hoof all the time.

I can shield in advantage to protect from a combo breaking move, and protect myself to consider the string, I'm not in disadvantage at that point. I still control the pace therefore I have the advantage.

But I'm from the school that an action needs to be made to transition into advantage doesn't it? Or is my perception just wrong?

 

[PK Gaming]

★★★ for seems too low

His advantage on block was always pretty good (Arcthunder can lead into grab or even Nos if you're close enough, Arcfire somewhat keeps them locked down) but it was made even better now that SH FF Levin Sword normals are basically safe on block. God forbid he actually gets a hit or grab at high % since they can easily lead to KO set ups.

He's definitely better on advantage than the characters in his tier.

 

[Boomstick720]

Haven't seen it yet, so I might as well talk about Shulk's advantage game.

Shulk has an incredibly potent advantage game, but it really depends on the art he is in, with shield being the worst and pretty much all his other arts being selectively good depending on the nature of the advantage. So in order to best determine Shulk's game, the only thing that can be done is to rate each advantage game based on the art active, starting with the control of having no art active.

Vanila- ★★

The main issue with pressing an advantage with Shulk is that the more damage you do, the harder it is to follow up your attacks. However, if your opponent has a good "disadvantage" game, its fairly easy to turn the tables on Shulk with one missed read, and especially with combo heavy characters, an advantage can quickly fade away. Shulk can play a fantastic spacing game with most opponents, but without any arts, its difficult to heavily convert on advantages unless your opponent is off stage and easily gimped.

Jump- ★★★

This is where converting an advantage starts to see some benefits. With Jump art on, Shulk can effectively kill from anywhere on and off stage, and only the best recoveries hope to return the user completely unharmed. A good grab can also lead to an easy kill off stage as well. However, Shulk's vulnerability overall increases drastically with this art on, so a good counter attack off stage can quickly erase any advantage Shulk has in the off stage game.

Speed- ★★★★

Speed is stupid. I mean it really is. Speed can cause a lot of trouble for most characters in the game, and requires an opponent to play perfectly if they want to avoid getting battered all over the place by Shulk. Characters that have mediocre to bad recoveries can also lose a stock incredibly early if they get carried off stage here, which is something Shulk can do very easily with his speed. However, a patient opponent who focuses on playing incredibly defensively can manage to wait out the art long enough in that Shulk can't capitalize on any advantage he may have. In most scenarios, I will count on opponents trying to mitigate their disadvantage as quickly as possible, which can lead to the loss if their stock as they generally try to be overzealous in getting back to stage.

Shield- Unranked

Well as you might expect, shield is a horrific art to use when capitalizing on an advantage. In addition to doing less damage, you move incredibly slow, have absolutely 0 off stage presence except for right on the ledge, and generally can't do much of anything other than punish overzealous opponents. The only situation using Shield would be even considered remotely okay is if you are trying to condition your opponent to throw out be throwing out more grabs which can be punished. Otherwise, shield is a terrible plan.

Buster- ★★★★

Buster is fantastic. Not only does it do crazy amounts of damage and introduce an insane amount of shield pressure, but the decreased knockback gives Shulk access to many more combos that can rack up incredible damage in a short amount of time. It can play a big part in building up a lot of damage, and causing an opponent to panic as they watch their % build up from 0-50 due to one missed tech, or similar small mistakes as this. Its off stage game is equal to the standard vanilla Shulk, but with the added benefit of doing more damage. The only real downside is that many opponents will look for openings in your combos to convert your advantage into theirs, and a greedy Shulk can easily see his percent building up instead of his opponents for being over zealous in building combos.

Smash- ★★★

Smash is pretty much the ideal advantage art. It kills stupidly early, and can be an easy way to close out a stock before an opponent can get any real benefits from rage. Unfortunately, most opponents are aware of how deadly it is, so expect lots of opponents to start camping you out and waiting for the art to wear off. An overly aggressive Shulk can quickly end up losing his own stock if he gets too greedy in closing the stock of his opponent.

Overall- ★★★ 1/2

Shulk at an advantage can be a very scary opponent, particularly if he gets you offstage. Buster can lead to lots of highly damaging combos, and speed can be very hard to work around unless you are Sheik or someone with amazing frame data all around. The only way to really counter a Shulk with an advantage is to know what to do with each art. Run from jump and buster, and shield speed and smash. Vanilla is harder to have a strategy, but its also far less dangerous, so be ready for anything against it. The best overall option when playing against Shulk is to simply play as defensively as possible, and know how to defend against each art as much as possible. Don't try to build your own advantage unless you KNOW Shulk won't hit you or punish you.

I would put him slightly above average overall in terms advantage game.

 

[Boomstick720]

Haven't seen it yet, so I might as well talk about Shulk's advantage game.

Shulk has an incredibly potent advantage game, but it really depends on the art he is in, with shield being the worst and pretty much all his other arts being selectively good depending on the nature of the advantage. So in order to best determine Shulk's game, the only thing that can be done is to rate each advantage game based on the art active, starting with the control of having no art active.

Vanila- ★★

The main issue with pressing an advantage with Shulk is that the more damage you do, the harder it is to follow up your attacks. However, if your opponent has a good "disadvantage" game, its fairly easy to turn the tables on Shulk with one missed read, and especially with combo heavy characters, an advantage can quickly fade away. Shulk can play a fantastic spacing game with most opponents, but without any arts, its difficult to heavily convert on advantages unless your opponent is off stage and easily gimped.

Jump- ★★★

This is where converting an advantage starts to see some benefits. With Jump art on, Shulk can effectively kill from anywhere on and off stage, and only the best recoveries hope to return the user completely unharmed. A good grab can also lead to an easy kill off stage as well. However, Shulk's vulnerability overall increases drastically with this art on, so a good counter attack off stage can quickly erase any advantage Shulk has in the off stage game.

Speed- ★★★★

Speed is stupid. I mean it really is. Speed can cause a lot of trouble for most characters in the game, and requires an opponent to play perfectly if they want to avoid getting battered all over the place by Shulk. Characters that have mediocre to bad recoveries can also lose a stock incredibly early if they get carried off stage here, which is something Shulk can do very easily with his speed. However, a patient opponent who focuses on playing incredibly defensively can manage to wait out the art long enough in that Shulk can't capitalize on any advantage he may have. In most scenarios, I will count on opponents trying to mitigate their disadvantage as quickly as possible, which can lead to the loss if their stock as they generally try to be overzealous in getting back to stage.

Shield- Unranked

Well as you might expect, shield is a horrific art to use when capitalizing on an advantage. In addition to doing less damage, you move incredibly slow, have absolutely 0 off stage presence except for right on the ledge, and generally can't do much of anything other than punish overzealous opponents. The only situation using Shield would be even considered remotely okay is if you are trying to condition your opponent to throw out be throwing out more grabs which can be punished. Otherwise, shield is a terrible plan.

Buster- ★★★★

Buster is fantastic. Not only does it do crazy amounts of damage and introduce an insane amount of shield pressure, but the decreased knockback gives Shulk access to many more combos that can rack up incredible damage in a short amount of time. It can play a big part in building up a lot of damage, and causing an opponent to panic as they watch their % build up from 0-50 due to one missed tech, or similar small mistakes as this. Its off stage game is equal to the standard vanilla Shulk, but with the added benefit of doing more damage. The only real downside is that many opponents will look for openings in your combos to convert your advantage into theirs, and a greedy Shulk can easily see his percent building up instead of his opponents for being over zealous in building combos.

Smash- ★★★

Smash is pretty much the ideal advantage art. It kills stupidly early, and can be an easy way to close out a stock before an opponent can get any real benefits from rage. Unfortunately, most opponents are aware of how deadly it is, so expect lots of opponents to start camping you out and waiting for the art to wear off. An overly aggressive Shulk can quickly end up losing his own stock if he gets too greedy in closing the stock of his opponent.

Overall- ★★★ 1/2

Shulk at an advantage can be a very scary opponent, particularly if he gets you offstage. Buster can lead to lots of highly damaging combos, and speed can be very hard to work around unless you are Sheik or someone with amazing frame data all around. The only way to really counter a Shulk with an advantage is to know what to do with each art. Run from jump and buster, and shield speed and smash. Vanilla is harder to have a strategy, but its also far less dangerous, so be ready for anything against it. The best overall option when playing against Shulk is to simply play as defensively as possible, and know how to defend against each art as much as possible. Don't try to build your own advantage unless you KNOW Shulk won't hit you or punish you.

I would put him slightly above average overall in terms advantage game.

Actually re-reading the thread, I'd bump him up to 4 1/2 stars, or 4 to be conservative. Any low recovery option that isn't near instant is fatal against Shulk. The reason I put Shulk at 3 1/2 was mostly because I assumed that the "average" was 3 stars, not like 4ish.

 

[Jamurai]

Do you really think Shulk's advantage could even considered to be on the same level as DK and Ryu? Shulk is a complicated case but I simply don't believe that. I'm saying defo ★★★★ at the very most, but probably ★★★☆ or ★★★. Does Shulk have any reliable kill setups, apart from apply Smash Monado and then hit them or throw them off the stage?

 

[Boomstick720]

Do you really think Shulk's advantage could even considered to be on the same level as DK and Ryu? Shulk is a complicated case but I simply don't believe that. I'm saying defo ★★★★ at the very most, but probably ★★★☆ or ★★★. Does Shulk have any reliable kill setups, apart from apply Smash Monado and then hit them or throw them off the stage?

DK has one real consistent kill set up, being the ding dong. All of his other kills "set ups" are due to strong hits off stage, which Shulk has even more so.

Ryu has his tilts to shoryukens, which I agree supercede Shulk, but I would say that Ryu is actually underrated because of that, and not that Shulk is overrated.

A big part of why I put Shulk so high is that all of his aerials have a lot of knockback on them and getting hit with any of them can be extremely fatal. A big part of this comes from Shulk's fair and bair, which are pretty reliable offstage in that its incredibly difficult for a character that doesn't have an extremely good recovery to survive them. A bair towards stage will catch most vertical recoveries unless they have super armor, and a fair is generally enough to kill anyone offstage past 60%.

I rate Shulk high because he is so dangerous to recover from when offstage, or even land safely against, more so than most of the cast honestly. There are better characters for sure, but none have quite as many fatal offstage options that covers so much.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shulk is not a 4 in disadvantage.

foh homie

 

[Boomstick720]

Shulk is not a 4 in disadvantage.

foh homie

Oh in disadvantage?

I thought we were talking advantage.

I agree for disadvantage. Shulk has a horrific disadvantage game, possibly one of the worst of the cast. He is not only combo'd easily, but he has a fairly predictable recovery that has almost no horizontal range, and no super armor at all.

Shulk's only success is in baiting opponents into getting too aggressive and then reseting or taking back an advantage, or simply waiting for them to whiff their advantage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hes not a 4 in advantage either.

If he is then Ryu is an 11.

 

[wedl!!]

Shulk in buster doesn't get enough reward on hit other than damage to be a 4 star.

Just doing stupid amounts of damage and being safer on shield isn't going to make you that great in advantage if you can't rack up damage reliably.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shulk is really scary in advantage. 4 seems about right.

 

[Boomstick720]

Hes not a 4 in advantage either.

If he is then Ryu is an 11.

Ryu is insane I'll give you that, but I stand by my assessment that Shulk is incredibly hard to recover from. Most characters have maybe one good kill option off stage, and even then its mostly a meteor. Every single one of DK's aerials has great kill options off stage, with the worst being the uair, and even that is pretty insane at high percents. Shulk is the same way in that all of aerials have the same range of, if not greater than dk, and I'd say only his fair lacks in the sheer power of DK. If we are arguing that Shulk does not deserve it, then why the hell does DK? DK has strong advantage game because he has long hard hitting hurt boxes that can hit opponents trying to recover or land at all. How is Shulk different in this regard?

Keep in mind, we are talking about Shulk at an ADVANTAGE already. This is assuming his neutral game has put the opponent at a disadvantage already, which means that already the opponent has slightly restricted options already.

Shulk in buster doesn't get enough reward on hit other than damage to be a 4 star.

Just doing stupid amounts of damage and being safer on shield isn't going to make you that great in advantage if you can't rack up damage reliably.

Again, this is assuming that you are in a neutral. An opponent who has several options available to them is not at a disadvantage. I'll grant lowering buster down a bit since buster sees a lot of its effectiveness overall in the neutral, but an opponent trapped at a ledge with buster has a very real chance of taking +30% damage or getting their shield broken.

 

[Sykkamorre]

If shulk has 4 star, so does ganon. Hell, i'd give ganon a 4.5 if shulk's got 4.

Especially since ALL of ganon's aerials are basically a death sentence offstage.

But to be realistic, either ryu'd have to be 5 star, or shulk's not 4 star.

 

[Boomstick720]

If shulk has 4 star, so does ganon. Hell, i'd give ganon a 4.5 if shulk's got 4.

Especially since ALL of ganon's aerials are basically a death sentence offstage.

But to be realistic, either ryu'd have to be 5 star, or shulk's not 4 star.

I honestly would put ryu at 5 star, or maybe 4 1/2. He kills so early and has an insane amount of followups, and literally getting hit once with a tilt near the edge can be a guaranteed death at low percents. I honestly think ryu is one of the best, if the not best, "advantaged" player in the game. It really is insane how much he can do from so little. The only reason I wouldn't put him at 5 is that a lot his aerials simply lack the range, in the case of dair and uair, to cover everything. Otherwise, I'd put him as solidly the best in the game.

As for ganon, my problem with ganon isn't so much that his aerials aren't good, I mean his dair is almost the entire reason I play him, its that if his opponent hits a ledge, its way easier to get past him unless you make a hard read. Ganon's best option for edge guarding that I've seen is his dsmash, since it covers both a roll and a getup. But I put Shulk over ganon simply because shulk has an easier time of covering getup options as well as having good aerials. I think you could put ganon at MOST at 4 stars, but just barely. They are close, but I give the edge to Shulk simply because he has more options.

 

[Nobie]

Most of the reason DK has that high advantage rating is the Ding Dong.

 

[Jamurai]

Ding dong is obviously great, but it's also the fact that he gets 23% at the very least off every single grab. Also if he grabs you near the ledge he can straight up kill you by stage spiking you with pivot cargo Dthrow, which is difficult to tech especially if unprepared. His grab reward is ludicrous at all stages of the game.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I honestly would put ryu at 5 star, or maybe 4 1/2. He kills so early and has an insane amount of followups, and literally getting hit once with a tilt near the edge can be a guaranteed death at low percents. I honestly think ryu is one of the best, if the not best, "advantaged" player in the game. It really is insane how much he can do from so little. The only reason I wouldn't put him at 5 is that a lot his aerials simply lack the range, in the case of dair and uair, to cover everything. Otherwise, I'd put him as solidly the best in the game.

As for ganon, my problem with ganon isn't so much that his aerials aren't good, I mean his dair is almost the entire reason I play him, its that if his opponent hits a ledge, its way easier to get past him unless you make a hard read. Ganon's best option for edge guarding that I've seen is his dsmash, since it covers both a roll and a getup. But I put Shulk over ganon simply because shulk has an easier time of covering getup options as well as having good aerials. I think you could put ganon at MOST at 4 stars, but just barely. They are close, but I give the edge to Shulk simply because he has more options.

But to counteract the getup coverage, ganon has more damage output than almost all of the cast. What shulk can do in buster, ganon does better without any form of buff.
And while dair is ludicrously sexy, all of his others are better at gimping. Not to mention how deadly a ledgetrump bair is!

 

[kenniky]

imo Shulk's advantage is probably a 3 to a 3.5, closer to a 3.5 (if I actually had to weigh it, it would be about 3.4 ish)

large range means that he can efficiently shut down several get-away options, but his terrible frame data, lack of combos, and subpar mobility means that that's basically all that he has. (before you bring up Speed and Jump, Speed does less damage, meaning that you get less reward, and Jump is actually fairly hard to microspace in given that your vertical mobility is so amplified. if you jump too high they can literally just go under you. Plus you won't be in these arts all the time. Also neither of these arts really help the other two problems all that much)

 

[Wintropy]

Just noticed this, but I want to dispute Palutena's placement. She doesn't have great setups or chases, that much is fair, but the fact that she has two invincible pokes (one of which is aerial), a u-smash with great vertical distance, d-throw followups to chase DI (rage / damage dependent, but if Palutena gets you in d-throw, chances are you will take some kind of damage) and a decent edgeguarding game (again with her aerials).

I won't deny it, her advantage is pretty weak at best. But I think one star is overstating just how weak it is. Two is reasonable in my opinion.

 

[luckysharm]

I agree, Palutena is being sold short. If Ryo can beat Diddys and Sheiks with Palutena then she's got more going for her than it looks.

 

[Jamurai]

Just noticed this, but I want to dispute Palutena's placement. She doesn't have great setups or chases, that much is fair, but the fact that she has two invincible pokes (one of which is aerial), a u-smash with great vertical distance, d-throw followups to chase DI (rage / damage dependent, but if Palutena gets you in d-throw, chances are you will take some kind of damage) and a decent edgeguarding game (again with her aerials).

I won't deny it, her advantage is pretty weak at best. But I think one star is overstating just how weak it is. Two is reasonable in my opinion.

Having invincible pokes and a long range Usmash contribute to her neutral score imo. She does have some followups and an edgeguarding game, but so does every character to be fair. I'm not 100% sure if we've decided if one star means the near worst relative to everyone else, or if it means they are straight-up abysmal in advantage. If it is the former (which makes more sense imo) I think it's fair to say Palutena is down there. There aren't many characters worse than her in advantage.

While I'm here: Move up. His ability to force opponents to think about loads of things at once when they're in disadvantage (bomb is falling from above, boomerang is coming back, Tink is bout to slap me with a Fair) is pretty scary. Also he has good kill confirms off bombs.

Also I thought we agreed that is like three stars? He's certainly not worse than average; his combo game isn't perfect but it's strong, and his Dthrow kill confirm isn't hard to land if you can chase DI. He has good jab lock setups as well, I don't think they're that reliable but if Lucas pulls one or two off the damage dealt is nasty.

 

[Boomstick720]

imo Shulk's advantage is probably a 3 to a 3.5, closer to a 3.5 (if I actually had to weigh it, it would be about 3.4 ish)

large range means that he can efficiently shut down several get-away options, but his terrible frame data, lack of combos, and subpar mobility means that that's basically all that he has. (before you bring up Speed and Jump, Speed does less damage, meaning that you get less reward, and Jump is actually fairly hard to microspace in given that your vertical mobility is so amplified. if you jump too high they can literally just go under you. Plus you won't be in these arts all the time. Also neither of these arts really help the other two problems all that much)

Shulk has terrible framedata, that much can't be argued, but his mobility is hilariously good with either jump or speed. And no, speed's lower damage output makes literally no difference, since you should only be using it at very low or very high %s, and your opponent will more often than not simply be unable to keep up with you. Do we think that Shiek is terrible despite having several hilariously weak hits? No, because those hits easily combo into stronger ones, or can bait in enemy into putting themselves in an even worse disadvantage. Speed works the same way. Once you get a speed combo going, an enemy has extremely limited options in what they can do, as Shulk's bad frame data is mostly mitigated since most characters simply cannot keep up with him. Jump is not hard to space at all with practice frankly. Its weird to get used to if you don't play Shulk often, since as you said, it makes his mobility in the air way more sensitive, but it basically means that an airdodge at high percents can be fatal if you are anywhere offstage, as a missed fair can be easily followed with an air slash, which is surprisingly potent.

You argue that not always being in these arts is a weakness, but I see it as a strength. Over time, some MUs simply become much more familiar, and as top level characters are played more and more, it becomes very easy to predict followups for the vast majority of characters, which takes away some of their potency. Naturally, top level players can mitigate this fairly well with empty hops and the like, but when you have a character than can become another character at any given point in the match, its really hard to get a handle on what your opponent can or can't do. For example, a shulk in speed art can perfect pivot farther than anyone in the game, while a vanilla shulk has an average PP. This can be easily used against an opponent in that a move that would otherwise likely force a shield or spot dodge can be pivoted out of, and followed up very easily with speed. You can even use "expected" options to further confuse your opponent, like tomahawking with jump art to set up for a grab.

Oh and buster has plenty of combos that can rack up damage very easily, particularly when your opponent is more concerned about regaining control, which opens them up to making big mistakes, which often mitigates Shulk's terrible frame data.

Again, I don't think Shulk is best in the game, but there are very few characters that I would say are much harder to recover against.

 

[Wintropy]

Having invincible pokes and a long range Usmash contribute to her neutral score imo. She does have some followups and an edgeguarding game, but so does every character to be fair. I'm not 100% sure if we've decided if one star means the near worst relative to everyone else, or if it means they are straight-up abysmal in advantage. If it is the former (which makes more sense imo) I think it's fair to say Palutena is down there. There aren't many characters worse than her in advantage.

Well yeah but I mean her followups and edgeguarding options are good. Very difficult to challenge b-air offstage since it's physically invincible, falling n-air can catch recoveries that don't project a hitbox (and it's very vaguely disjointed), d-air is a spike, u-air is kinda weak off-stage but it's a disjoint so that's good...

U-air can challenge basically anything overhead except very big disjoints. It can stop Bowser's down-b. And it kills. It isn't a combo, it's barely even a followup, but it's there and it makes it very risky to be anywhere over Palutena - platforms or otherwise.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Falco at 3 stars for advantage seems kind of low. I'd say his advantage is at least as good as Falcon's.

His combo game is pretty amazing. He can get strong conversions off of moves such as dash attack, u-throw, and up tilt with Nair and U-Air, both of which can combo into themselves at low to mid percents. His edge guards are pretty amazing too since Fair and nair have lingering hitboxes to intercept the opponent's recovery and can kill very early off stage.

Lucas I think is also being rated a bit too low.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Falco at 3 stars for advantage seems kind of low. I'd say his advantage is at least as good as Falcon's.

His combo game is pretty amazing. He can get strong conversions off of moves such as dash attack, u-throw, and up tilt with Nair and U-Air, both of which can combo into themselves at low to mid percents. His edge guards are pretty amazing too since Fair and nair have lingering hitboxes to intercept the opponent's recovery and can kill very early off stage.

Lucas I think is also being rated a bit too low.

The main problem with Lucas is that once the percentage tacks on, he loses most of his combo's iirc. Hindering him late stock.

 

[ぱみゅ]

So.... itsraininggravy shows no signs of life, so I might as well retake the project.

I was thinking of rewriting on what means each state: what is Neutral, Advantage and Disadvantage and what means min and max rank within each.
Also, I propose to rating 1-10 instead of 1-5 so it is easier to differentiate off.
Another change I'd like to make is to make ratings on comparison instead of performance, but that might be applied after we have a rough idea of every character's general ratings.

So let's all continue the project, it might even be useful for bigger projects such as tier lists and even legality issues.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco at 3 stars for advantage seems kind of low. I'd say his advantage is at least as good as Falcon's.

His combo game is pretty amazing. He can get strong conversions off of moves such as dash attack, u-throw, and up tilt with Nair and U-Air, both of which can combo into themselves at low to mid percents. His edge guards are pretty amazing too since Fair and nair have lingering hitboxes to intercept the opponent's recovery and can kill very early off stage.

Lucas I think is also being rated a bit too low.

My reasoning is this: Falco's "normal" advantage is 3 because of lack of true combos, hit confirms, 50/50's, and other wacky stuff, but if he manages to read DI perfectly and never let you breath for a second, it's potentially a 4 to a 5. Falco's advantage is really DI dependent, but even without perfect DI reading, Falco's advantage is above-average at worst.

Kind of why I wanted "*" next to Falco's advantage and neutral since there's many variables that change them.