Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[~ Gheb ~]

I didn't actually order them or wanted to make it look like that's the definite top 5 [though I personally think so].

I also don't know if having a good advantaged state really trumps having a good disadvantaged state by that much. The only thing I'm 100% sure of is that neutral state is the most important one.

 

[Vyrnx]

Neutral: 2/5
Advantage: 3.5/5
Disadvantage: 2/5

Samus's neutral is pretty bad, but it isn't the worst in the game when compared to Zelda, Jiggs, or Ganon. Samus has pretty average mobility with a good dash attack and zair, so while her neutral is not good, it's not the worst. I originally said 1.5/5, but idk. Probably 2/5. One of few characters who beats Luigi's neutral, for instance.

Samus's advantage state is definitely above average and anyone who says it is the worst in the game doesn't know enough about the character to be posting their opinion of her. Anytime Samus wins the neutral she can usually convert 20-30% damage or sometimes a stock. Samus is the heavyweight combo character and her combos, contrary to popular belief, are not hard to pull off. DA/dthrow->Uair->Fair/CS isn't hard at low-mid prevents, DA/dthrow->fair can work well past 100% in some situations and is an easy 20ish percent. Zair to tech chase CS can take stocks reliably, utilt to CS does tons of damage or the stock... As for her advantage depending on CS, it doesn't really; it just greatly enhances it. Also, whenever Samus converts her advantage into a combo at low percentage it gives her easy breathing space to charge CS which makes future advantage states that much more deadly. She actually has a pretty good off stage game too. I was inclined to say 4/5, but when compared to ZSS or MK I just can't bring myself to do that.

Her disadvantage state is pretty interesting. It has really good aspects and really bad aspects. First off, the reason I gave her a below average disadvantage state is because she has trouble landing. That's enough to make it below average imo. Samus also no longer has a combo breaker (uair doesn't count as its frame 5, but can catch people off guard I suppose).

On the other side of things, Samus is challenging to edge guard for almost the whole cast (I have very rarely been gimped, maybe <10 times ever). If Samus gets caught on the ledge, she has amazing ledge play which still has room to be explored--there's a video of a Japanese player that fights a Fox while planking almost the whole time, and it's pretty interesting stuff. She can do ledge drop uncharged CS to force approaches, ledge drop missile to force approaches if she has a fully charged CS, ledge drop fully charged CS, ledge drop zair, LD uair to start combos, LD SHAD->anything, LD bomb on stage (harder to explain) to reset invincibility, LD Fair can retreat back to the ledge and is surprisingly useful, LD stage canceled Fair, etc. Also when in a disadvantaged state, if someone gets reckless and chases Samus for a follow up, they can get hit by fully charged CS if they are stupid. And then obviously she is heavy and hard to combo/kill, so.

But it is still bad because she can't land.

Edit: I'm gonna make her neutral 2/5.

 

[Trifroze]

What's the order of importance between the three stats? Judging by @ ~ Gheb ~ 's list of top 5 (is it top 5 or just general top and high?) it looks like the order goes
#1: Neutral (Based on Shiek/ZSS comparison)
#2: Advantage
#3: Disadvantage (Based on Fox being a threa despite sub par disadvantage)

If this is correct then to what extent does having a good neutral carry having a bad disadvantage? Or Disadvantage related to advantage? Or neutral and advantage?

All stats carry each other and should have approximately the same value. Even in 20XX winning neutral between two good characters will involve guessing as long as both of them are generally fast enough with sufficient options to bait the other character into responses and punish them with something else before they react, or just read an action from the opponent and stuff it out. There's a fine line between that and when one character has so many tools over the other that they have no reason to use anything else and should basically never lose neutral, in which case neutral is all that matters because it's the gateway to the other states.

Anyway, if you lose neutral more often but get back to neutral easier than your opponent and/or do more harm when you do win neutral, it should make up for it presuming the neutral and advantage+disadvantage differences are equal. Sheik vs ZSS is a decent practical example, the problem is just that Sheik also has a nearly as strong of an advantage and disadvantage so she ends up winning regardless.

EDIT: Forgot to make the following q, who has a ☆ advantage? Before we give every top tier 4 stars or 4½ stars should probably get an idea of what the spread is.

 

[DungeonMaster]

EDIT: Forgot to make the following q, who has a ☆ advantage? Before we give every top tier 4 stars or 4½ stars should probably get an idea of what the spread is.

Duck hunt and little mac.
Duck hunt has limited ability to follow the opponent after hit confirm, i.e. few combos, no tech chases (that I know of). Given an opening in defence as wide as a shield break it's not implausibe to not even kill with a fully charged smash, quite content if he can get 10 damage out of any opening. He is constantly resetting to neutral with projectiles and has a limited offstage game.
Little mac definitely has more combos but they are all tied close to the ground with only a handful of options vs. a launched opponent. In a game where aerial follow up is the primary focus of advantage over the opponent, he too is constantly resetting to neutral. He does have a handful of respectable tech chases but his essentially non-existent offstage game means he cannot capitalize on one of the major arenas of advantage in smash.
Both characters have very good (event excellent) neutral game but are held back from being unable to capitalize on their opponent's disadvantage. They do not get very much off of a single hit.

 

[Shaya]

Mac's mobility and range makes his advantage state quite scary.... Stuck at the ledge or above him on a platform he can reach (i.e. battlefield), or any form of approaching.

BUT, Mac would surely have the worst disadvantage in the game.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt's advantage isn't that bad imo. Until it's time to kill, his advantage state is fine. Am I setting up or pressuring you? Oh, I failed to pressure you? Whatever, still got set-ups.

Pigeon covers landings, trick shot covers jumps/air dodges/recoveries, gunmen covers them without jumps so i can shield grab, not to mention his grab range is HUGE... It's REALLY hard to return to neutral against DHD. These just like, never convert into kills.

Mac also has good landing and ledge coverage. Just taking to the air against little mac is an advantage state for him in a lot of MUs.

I'd say jigglypuffs or peaches are worse.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Mac waiting for you to land on a platform means he's not able to *go out there and make sure you never get back to the stage in the first place". It's not even close to falcon going right out after you with up-airs and flying killer knees, or pre-patch diddy giving you the 3-frame airdodge into up-air sweats. Or being underneath rosa, zero suit at any percent.
Duck hunt likewise, waiting for your opponent to land, it's practically the ONLY option DH and Mac have. Wait for opponent to land on stage to go for either a read or a trap respectively. It's the most limited form of advantage in the game.
Opponent completely dis-concerned with follow up, because there is none, recovers to ledge any number of ways, and resets to neutral 9/10 neither of them can do squat about it.

Peach and puff's advantage states (and megaman) are pretty bad too often being single hits with little follow up. Peach has some respectable damaging combos, however difficult to perform they do hit the 40's. I would say peach > puff > megaman but they're all better than DH and mac in advantage.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh hell I'm just gonna do this now since this has been on my mind for a while.



Neutral: ★★★★

Shurikens are reaaaaally good at creating pressure and forcing approaches, especially when we can fire them from a short hop with no problem. Greninja's mobility also allows him to run away very efficiently and also makes him have an easier time getting close to the opponent when he has to punish them which is really good against campy characters. He also has good ranged moves to serve as spacing tools in F-Air and F-Tilt, plus one of the best dash grabs in the game to punish mistakes made by the opponent. His main drawback in neutral is being bad at dealing with pressure thanks to his bad OoS options and his frame data can be a problem sometimes, he does have some good CQC tools in jab and D-Tilt though so he's not too helpless when shielding.

Advantage:★★★★☆

Greninja has two excellent anti-air attacks in Up-Tilt and Up-Smash, both of which can kill or lead into one in Up-Tilt's case, his mobility allows him to chase down opponents very efficiently, he has some really good juggling moves in Up-Air and B-Air, has tons of kill setups, very damaging combos and is also very good at edgeguarding people, even being among the only characters that can actually edgeguard Sheik and Pikachu successfuly in the default meta.

The only reason I didn't make it a full five stars is that Greninja doesn't have too much grab reward, Up-Throw -> Up-Air works at mid percents and D-Throw -> F-Air is a good kill setup, but it only works at late percents or if Greninja has a good amount of rage. He can't get much out of his throws outside of baiting reactions from the opponent past the point Up-Throw -> Up-Air stops working.

Disadvantage: ★★★☆

Greninja's recovery is amazingly good and he's very unlikely to be gimped unless the opponent gets a good read on him. His fall speed makes him easier to combo, but he's not very easy to juggle because he can use Hydro Pump and it's unpredictability to mix-up his landing and tricking the opponent and it works especially well on slow opponents. The fact that when Greninja hits the ground after Hydro Pump he slides while crouching also helps make him less vulnerable.

But otherwise his disadvantage is not anything particularly amazing, just slightly above average. Shadow Sneak cancelling hitstun also helps him get out of some dangerous things (noticeably Shuttle Loop and Robin's Wind Jab) but that's about it.

 

[BSP]

I'd throw Diddy in the best neutrals department as well. Villager is also strong, all he really lacks is OoS options but it only really seems to matter versus rushdown and nair seems to work well enough in most situations. Same things probably largely apply to Pac-Man, except instead of pellets he throws items at you and sets up fire hydrants and trampolines instead of saplings and trees.

Pac-Man is an odd case IMO. While I'm here (and since I've seen posts on other characters that aren't in the "current debate" group):


Neutral: ★★★
Advantage: ★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★★

Or

Neutral: ★★★☆
Advantage: ★★★
Disadvantage: ★★★☆

I'll think about it. Either way, reasoning.

[COLLAPSE=Essay ahead]

Neutral: Speaking strictly from character attributes such as run speed, walk speed, frame data, overall air mobility, etc., Pac-Man is average to below average character when it comes to neutral. His frame data is mediocre. It's not bad, but it's not outstanding either. He loses handily to CQC / rush-down based characters like the Mario Bros. when it comes to boxing wars. Pac-Man's jab is F4, while most high mobility characters have F3 or less jabs. Otherwise, he can generally keep up with or outspeed other archetypes like the swordsmen, heavies, other zoners, etc. with the tradeoff being not having as much range or power. He's a floaty character, so his SH game is pretty meh in terms of quick, constant pressure. He can't continually throw out aerial hitboxes like Mario and Sheik can to keep up pressure while remaining safe. That being said, his SH fair, Bair, and Uair all allow him enough time to perform another action before he hits the ground, so he does have a bit of variety in that sense. Mobility wise, he's average. He's not slow, but he's not fast in the slightest.

His biggest weakness in neutral is his abysmal grab. With 12 frames of startup before the first grab hitbox and over a full second of total animation frames, it's almost safe to assume that Pac-Man doesn't have a grab in most competitive situations. If you've been paying any attention to the smash 4 meta, you know that grabs are a huge part of the game. The fact that this option usually isn't an available option to Pac-Man is quite damning. TBH, his grab alone bumps his neutral down to ★★ at most...until his special moves are factored in.

Pac-Man's specials moves are what keeps him afloat. Through the combination of Bonus Fruit, Pac-Jump, and Fire Hydrant, Pac-Man has arguably the best anti-approach game in smash 4. He's got a move that is eight projectiles in one. His trampoline forces characters airborne, removing grounded options from the neutral equation for the most part. His fire hydrant acts as an obstacle that can soak up other projectiles, delay approaches, and more. In a nutshell, Pac-Man is golden once he gets set up and can give even the fastest characters a hard time approaching him.

So where does that leave him in the neutral game? I'd say slightly above average. While the combination of his specials is worth ★★★★ by themselves, there three main problems. Setting up trampolines, hydrants, and charging bonus fruit all take time, and Pac-Man is vulnerable during the time when he's setting them up. Until he's set up, he's a avg character with an abysmal grab. The second major factor is that his tools can be used against him, which smart opponents will also take advantage of. Lastly, Pac-Man's grab is that bad. The amount of effort the character has to exert to deal with simple "run up and shield" can't be overlooked.


Advantage: Like his neutral, the strength of Pac-Man's advantaged state depends on what he's got stocked.

When he has the opponent off of the stage, he's got three main options: jump off for an edgeguard, charge something, or set up a ledge trap. Pac-Man chasing offstage is mediocre. His Fair and Nair are alright for gimping and he's got a solid Bair, but he's still an average mobility character whose offstage edgeguarding intentions can be anticipated fairly easily. Because of this, most Pac-Man players opt to charge something or set up a trap. Regarding the latter, Pac-Man can set up some nasty ledge traps with his hydrant and trampoline. Since the latter tool forces characters airborne, he can create unblockable setups that make getting up from the ledge a nightmare. Unfortunately, like most of his game, this takes time and Pac-Man gives up offstage edgeguarding usually to do a setup. Additionally, there is counterplay to Pac-Man's ledge traps, but the traps certainly skew the ledge game in his favor once they are going.

His grab reward is subpar, especially considering the risk associated with grabbing. Pac-Man has one of the best pummels in the game at 3.25%, so he can tack on nice chip damage when he lands a grab at higher %. His Bthrow is a competent KO throw that is slightly weaker than Mario's. His Uthrow will KO at super high %. Fthrow is a setup throw that we haven't found much use for yet, and Dthrow does solid % but doesn't give much time to set anything up. Dthrow can be augmented if Pac-Man's hydrant water sprays at the right time, but that takes setup. Overall, a fairly below-average grab game.

As for combos and general advantage, i.e. the opponent is above him, Pac-Man is average to above average. As usual, it depends on what he's got stocked. At low %, dash attack usually combos into Uair for a nice 19% Stray hydrant drops convert into Bair for a quick 21% for quite a while. Pac-Man's Uair is much like Falcon's with its large arc, making being above him a bad spot. With a galaxian stocked or in hand at lower %s, usually sub 45%, Pac-Man is capable of confimrs that can do anywhere from 35% - 48%. One of my favorites is a forward galaxian toss-> Nair -> galaxian rehit -> Usmash for a quick 42%. With a bell stocked, Pac-Man can convert into a KO easily off of any slight mistake. Abadango has shown to be quite proficient at landing the bell at higher %, although Pac-Man struggles to KO without it. He does have situational KO confirms like dash attack -> Bell -> side B, but it's quite difficult to land that intial dash attack + it requires a stocked fruit. His Key is a reliable KO move at high % and can be set up / combo'd into off of his Fair, but it must be charged. His aerials in general are good for combos at low to mid %. All of them except Dair have pretty low base KB so they can be strung into each other well with a good intial hit. Make no mistake though, he is no Mario or Sheik.

Overall: average. Pac-Man has some nice combos and can really rack up % in certain situations, but these requires setup and he's not at good at maintaining offensive pressure as others.

Disadvantage: This is Pac-Man's strongest attribute barring a fully set up camp onstage. Pac-Man generally doesn't feel threatened offstage. He's floaty, with a floaty double jump and decent air speed. If he chooses, he can use his bonus fruit to cover his return, and alter his descent sped with bonus fruit charging and throwing hydrants. His side B can be aimed in any direction and covers massive distance. To top it off, Pac-Man gets it again if he gets hit. It also has some super armor right when he hits the power pellet. While it can be gimped by sniping the pellet or smacking Pac-Man before he reaches it, Pac-Man can take measures to avoid these vulnerabilities in his power pellet. Pac-Jump covers massive vertical distance while also making Pac-Man immune to meteor smashes as long as the third jump hasn't been used. Since the third jump can be taken before Pac-Man can use it, he does need to make sure he is in range to recover with just the seond bounce. This usually isn't a problem with his side B, and he second jump of Pac-Jump is still quite large. Pac-Man really shouldn't be dying off the bottom of the screen, simply put.

Pac-Man has a F3 Nair, and I'm sure it's known as one of the combo breaking Nairs. It's quite good for that purpose, so Pac-Man can usually escape all but the tightest of combos. While his floatiness and avg. air speed does make him easy to land trap and frame trap with aerials, Pac-Man has access to the fire hydrant to cover his descents. While the hydrant is far from infallible, it is an option that many characters must flat out respect when trying to juggle Pac-Man. When the hydrant hits the ground, the water spouts can provide Pac-Man with further support by disrupting the opponent's positioning.

Aside from fire hydrant coverage, which is generally ok at best, the main reason I give Pac-Man's disadvantage a four star rating is his trampoline. It comes out on frame 1, beats virtually all grounded options, gets Pac-Man out of grabs, and also leaves a trampoline behind to cover Pac-Man's descent. If Pac-Man is feeling pressured or the opponent is right on top of him, trampoline is basically a get out of jail free card that is nigh unpunishable it Pac-Man is within ledge grab range. If he's not, punish capability depends on the character, but a defensive trampoline is overall quite safe. The trampoline that is left behind also aids him getting back to neutral, so yeah.

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[DunnoBro]

Mac waiting for you to land on a platform means he's not able to *go out there and make sure you never get back to the stage in the first place". It's not even close to falcon going right out after you with up-airs and flying killer knees, or pre-patch diddy giving you the 3-frame airdodge into up-air sweats. Or being underneath rosa, zero suit at any percent.
Duck hunt likewise, waiting for your opponent to land, it's practically the ONLY option DH and Mac have. Wait for opponent to land on stage to go for either a read or a trap respectively. It's the most limited form of advantage in the game.
Opponent completely dis-concerned with follow up, because there is none, recovers to ledge any number of ways, and resets to neutral 9/10 neither of them can do squat about it.

Peach and puff's advantage states (and megaman) are pretty bad too often being single hits with little follow up. Peach has some respectable damaging combos, however difficult to perform they do hit the 40's. I would say peach > puff > megaman but they're all better than DH and mac in advantage.

Mac's challenge of the 1-frame with dsmash and general ledge get-up coverage are good though. I'm not comparing him to falcon's advantage state lol

And yea, dhd/mac have very limited forms of maintaining advantage. But they work, jiggs and peach have few consistent ways of maintaining advantage. They return to neutral to maintain a lead, that's how they do it.

Like I said about duck hunt though, he covers a disadvantaged opponent REALLY well, he just isn't killing off of it. Imagine if can or upair killed around 110/80, then he'd be considered a great/broken character. But instead, he just retains the option. Those kinds of options make me hesitant to call his advantage the worst in the game when some characters like peach/jiggs can't do much to prevent an opponent from getting back into neutral to begin with.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

OKAY SO, as you might've guessed, the topic is currently a mess right now.

It's nobody's fault however. Since this is an experimental topic, we are still learning. And, in my opinion, the original formula of going through characters incrementally for more accurate results...isn't really working as intended. And for multiple reasons.

SO INSTEAD, we are going to be using @ ぱみゅ 's idea for now. Since I think that it would be easy enough for everybody to understand, and it will allow people to discuss all of the characters in the game.

Here is his post~


As of right now, we are going to be discussing the NEUTRAL state!

Spoiler: Neutral Rankings (template)

★★★★★ =
★★★★☆ =
★★★★ =
★★★☆ =
★★★ =
★★☆ =
★★ =
★☆ =
★ =
☆ =

Not on the list:

Please note that this isn't EXACTLY based on a performance level. Instead, it is based upon where they rank in comparison to the other 54 characters in the game. Additionally, for the ☆ Star Rating, 10 characters can be in there instead of 5...as of right now anyways. Once more characters are added to the roster, I will add a ★★★★★★ Star Rating to help split the rankings up more evenly. OR...I could go ahead and do that if enough people want me to~

The rankings above were loosely based on the opinions thus far in this topic, so your stars/opinions haven't gone to waste


I apologize for the really bumpy start we've been having. But I am sure that as long as we remain patient, things will smooth out a lot more in the future. And I also apologize for not responding to everyone yet/for changing the rules of this topic so quickly. But I also want to thank everyone who has participated in this topic so far. Your support is greatly appreciated, and hopefully this topic will get better and better as time goes by!

Hopefully this new formula works out better. Anyways, begin discussing/debating how the characters rank in the NEUTRAL state!

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Oh, and before this happens (and I know it will):

DON'T JUST POST GRAPHS WILLY-NILLY WITHOUT DETAILED EXPLANATIONS FOR THE CHARACTERS. THIS WILL BE CONSIDERED AS SPAM.

Discuss the characters with reasonable and educated posts, and at a moderate pace as opposed to all at once. In other words, please discuss only a few characters at a time. Doing so will help reduce a lot of potential clutter in this topic. Thank you in advance!

 

[NegaNixx]

I was thinking that Dr. Mario and Mario were to close together in neutral and I found this post in the Viability Discusson

Having a good fireball in neutral is by no means playing it the same as Mario's. I encourage you to try and understand what I'm saying, Doc's neutral is lacking because it is linear and being able to be creative with a projectile would help that, and yes, I engage in discussion with Docs about this a lot, I'm in a skype group that has our best recorded player (2ManyCooks) and it's pretty well agreed on. There's a reason people pick Fast Pill with Doc, his movement doesn't let him get that creative in the neutral and a good projectile would absolutely do that.

I find it to be one of his biggest flaws, personally, having spent the time with this character at launch until now and being mostly correct about him after long deliberation and early meta hurdles.

He doesn't "need" anything, but this would fix SO MUCH ISSUES. Even Mario doesn't have a good fireball, it's only...."ok."

While I agree Mario is average in neutral (maybe 3.5), Doc's lack of mobility in comparison isn't fully compensated for by his Bair in my opinion. I'd toss him a half star underneath relative to Mario at 2.5 (based on the list).

Though you said loosely based so... IDK. But he should be a half star below Mario in general.

 

[Vyrnx]

As far as neutrals go, I feel like Olimar has one of the best (though I doubt this is a very popular opinion). He has great long range pressure with side b, a spammable fsmash that can keep out many characters very well, a good standing/dash grab, and an amazing pivot grab. I was thinking about characters with strong neutrals like DHD, and I realized that Olimar is one of the only characters I use that can consistently (and almost easily) beat DHD in the neutral. Just my opinion

 

[Pazx]

Seconding Olimar's good neutral, for all of the above reasons. I'd say it's on par or better than Pika/ZSS/etc but I'm not sure if it's quite as good as the 4.5 star guys. I'd still put it at 4.5 stars though, it legitimately is one of the better neutrals across the cast and makes up for his lackluster disadvantage and underwhelming advantage.

Mario's neutral looks a little low at 3 stars but I don't play the character aside from having some fun so I'll see what others think about that before pushing that point.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Nicely done, @ ItsRainingGravy !

Allow me to disagree with Sonic's 5-star rated Neutral.
His approaches get stuffed with virtually every non-laggy projectile, ranged, disjointed, or milti-hitting move.
I mean, he's pretty good as he can punish from virtually anywhere, and he's pretty difficult to catch, but he can't be one of the best neutrals if it's pretty frail and the actual bests flat-out beat his game.

Also, Mario could be higher, his fireball is enough pressure and his moves present little to no lag so he can easily bait and punish.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If we're doing .5 ratings I'd be OK with Sheik being the only character with ★★★★★ in neutral. Fox, Diddy, Sonic and Rosaluma would have ★★★★☆, Pikachu and ZSS probably too. LM and Megaman are overrated at ★★★★☆ and Gunner looks better at ★★★★ than at ★★★★☆ imo.

Just to bring a few things we already have into order before we start adding new characters:

★★★★★: Sheik
★★★★☆: Diddy Kong, Fox, Sonic, Rosaluma, Pikachu, ZSS
★★★★: Gunner, Little Mac, DHD,
★★★☆: Greninja, Megaman, Marth, Ike, Mario

in terms of neutral that seems pretty plausible to me.

 

[Trifroze]

I agree Sheik has ★★★★★ to herself, no one else can compete on the same level at all in neutral. Needles punish opponents for using basically any other projectile and prevent them from settling to do anything at long range, and her approach, pressure and defensive options are all among the top of their kind in the game.

If grab was ZSS' only problem I'd accept ★★★★☆, but she also lacks the capability to hit grounded opponents with rising shorthop aerials (bar Ganondorf, Rosalina and Bowser) and some of her best OoS options like jab, utilt and in some cases grab miss certain characters in some of their animations, especially when they land from aerials. Examples include Pikachu's fair and bair, Sheik's fair and pretty sure Yoshi's fair as well. Basically, her high hitboxes and bad grab together make her punishing options inconsistent and approach game predictable which is enough to drop her neutral to ★★★★. She still has amazing defense and safer aerial game than anyone bar Sheik, and she still retains other options to hit low animations even if those options are sub-optimal, so at the same time I wouldn't consider anything lower than ★★★★. However, characters who get through that defense easier can be somewhat of a problem to her in neutral.

 

[bc1910]

Aww, I did like the way this thread let us rank all 3 states at once. Gives you more to write about and discuss. This way does make sense though.

So, a few neutral rankings.

★★★★★
Agreed on Sheik being the only character with 5 star neutral. No-one else has the amount of options she has in such a wide variety of situations. Everything is fast and safe. Even without needles she'd have one of the best neutral states in the game though probably not her own star ranking above everyone else's. I think Diddy has the second best neutral in the game and is closest to Sheik but there are a few characters on Diddy's level.

★★★★☆
As explained above. Diddy has safety, banana stuff, good OoS options, good mobility, it's all good stuff. He's just not as oppressive as Sheik.

★★★★
I feel her neutral is notably worse than Sheik's and a bit worse than Diddy's. Most of my reasoning has been covered already by others. In short, she's still solid in the neutral with great frame data and mobility, but her grab is terrible and her hitboxes can be awkward. Her OoS game isn't bad but it's not as good as those above her.

★★★★☆
I spent a long time deciding on whether to give Pikachu 4 or 4.5 stars for his neutral. Ultimately I think he's on a similar level to Diddy with his small frame, good pokes and good frame data. You could probably argue 4 stars for Pika though, especially as people are starting to get better at dealing with Quick Attack

★★★★
I don't think Greninja's neutral needs to be downgraded from 4 stars. I would have agreed before the shuriken buff but now, his neutral is very solid. Shurikens are great, his mobility is the best in the game overall and he has a surprising number of fairly safe pokes. He has a top 5 dashgrab too. However, his OoS game is terrible. The only reason I don't think it causes his neutral to be lower than 4 stars is that thanks to his mobility, few characters can actually abuse his shield to the point where it makes neutral a struggle. Not to mention ZSS's OoS game, while better, still isn't good, but she still has a 4 star neutral. In comparison to ZSS, I consider Greninja to have the safer neutral because trying to create openings with shuriken is infinitely safer than taking the risks ZSS has to take up close and in general, but her OoS game is better by a large margin. So I think he averages out to being about as effective as her in neutral.

We're probably gonna have to look further down the tier list for this, but do you guys think there's any character with a good neutral (4 stars maybe) and poor advantaged/disadvantaged states (maybe 1 or 2 stars)? I guess Little Mac would be the best example, his neutral is good but his disadvantage clearly sucks and he doesn't really press an advantage against you, he just wins neutral multiple times. Any other characters fit this bill? Perhaps Duck Hunt? Maybe even Olimar but he's probably that bit too good in advantage.

 

[DunnoBro]

As far as neutrals go, I feel like Olimar has one of the best (though I doubt this is a very popular opinion). He has great long range pressure with side b, a spammable fsmash that can keep out many characters very well, a good standing/dash grab, and an amazing pivot grab. I was thinking about characters with strong neutrals like DHD, and I realized that Olimar is one of the only characters I use that can consistently (and almost easily) beat DHD in the neutral. Just my opinion

He beats DHD in neutral so easily because pikmin interact REALLY dumb with DHD and his projectiles and I don't think it should be considered his base neutral doing it.

Pikmin trade with can but travel much faster, also if they're on DHD he'll blow himself up with them if he tries to trick shot.
And they also ignore gunmen, which are supposed to help meat shield in fights like this.

That said, Olimar does have a great neutral. Easily equal to maybe greater than DHD, but the reason he beats dhd specifically is just because two super unique projectiles clash and one loses very awkwardly.

 

[Gawain]

My shorthand thoughts on Roy's neutral. Possibly contentious opinions abound!
★★★★

Personally, I think he's got one of the better neutrals in the game, and that it is actually one of the character's strongest traits, especially with having reduced hitlag on his sweetspots,making everything safer on shield. On the ground, his jab and down tilt are amazing moves that cover both grounded and (low) shorthop approaches. Both of these have a good disjoint and both can lead into his good advantage state. Even ftilt can now safely be used in neutral, except MAYBE against the very fastest dash grabs. Spaced properly, both his forward air and neutral air are also safe aerial approaches.

When you combine these moves with his good ground speed, amazing air speed, and fast falling, Roy does a great job at staying just within his reach and just out of his opponent's. These attributes also give Roy a potent tomohawk game, as he can convert a short hop into a grab very quickly, always leaving your opponent having to guess what move you are going to use from a jump.

While it is more niche in use, Roy's up b also has armor when used on the ground, and will kill at decent percents. This forces your opponent to be careful in neutral, and not throw out too many moves when the percents get high, making his emptyhop game even better as your opponent is more likely to stay in shield.

Overall, Roy has a good number of useful moves in neutral and he has the speed both on the ground and in the air to get out of danger when necessary and get back in immediately. Many of his moves convert into his advantage as well, often even when sourspotted. His neutral game is actually somewhat comparable to Yuzuriha from UNIEL, with many decent ranged attacks that,while pretty unsafe on whiff are actually quite safe on block, and with a neutral gameplan revolving around staying outside your opponent's reach and waiting for the right chance to go in deep, where both get their best rewards.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Mega man is no lower than 4.5 stars for neutral, there is no way. He has a ridiculous spacing game with pellets and all of his projectiles. His disadvantage game could be slightly lower as well as his advantage game.

 

[DunnoBro]

I dunno, megaman seems to kind of fall apart when the opponent has any sort of long-range game of their own. Definitely a stellar neutral, but it seems weaker than pikachus/diddys. I think 4-star is more accurate.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

4-star is still really damn good and probably the level where characters like Yoshi, Ness and maybe even ZSS will end up. Megaman doesn't belong there, let along on the same level as Diddy. There's nothing special about his neutral game.

 

[bc1910]

4-star is still really damn good and probably the level where characters like Yoshi, Ness and maybe even ZSS will end up. Megaman doesn't belong there, let along on the same level as Diddy. There's nothing special about his neutral game.

I agree with this. 4 star is more accurate for him than 4.5 stars but still too high I think. I guess it depends how you look at it. If you consider him as winning neutral every time he hits you with a pellet then of course you'd think his neutral is amazing but that's not really how things play out.

Roy doesn't belong in the 4 star group either for that matter.

Not sure about Yoshi. I've never really seen any issues with his neutral game outside of the grab problem, which doesn't hold ZSS back from having an above average neutral. But then you get Yoshi players claiming his neutral sucks and nothing he does is actually safe. I personally always thought Yoshi did fine in neutral.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yoshi's neutral is pretty average... ZSS's grab is better (range, linger, and set-ups for it) and has actual throw combos so it's more worth accounting for, making it another viable option. People aren't afraid to hold shield vs yoshi at all so they will.

ZSS's is somewhat average too, honestly. (though probably above average simply due to actual shield pressure and safe mobility) Better than yoshi's, but tt's just her advantage state is ridiculous, she only needs to win neutral 1-3 times before your stock is gone.

Like, pay close attention to almost any of nairos sets vs equal skilled players. He loses neutral A LOT and goes super ham. He spends a lot of the match in advantage, or disadvantage state.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yoshi's neutral is pretty average...

[...]

ZSS's is somewhat average too, honestly.

[...]

Sure, if we're taking these statement in the context of high- and top tier characters then I agree. But in that case ★★★★ is actually a pretty fair rating for either character. All the other top tier characters have at least ★★★★☆ in neutral and there are a couple of clearly non-high tier characters with ★★★★ ratings.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sure, if we're taking these statement in the context of high- and top tier characters then I agree. But in that case ★★★★ is actually a pretty fair rating for either character. All the other top tier characters have at least ★★★★☆ in neutral and there are a couple of clearly non-high tier characters with ★★★★ ratings.

No, I'd say ZSS's neutral is 3.5 at best. Observing how nairo and other ZSSs play, I just don't see them winning or even trying to play neutral much. Why? I'm not sure, but the end result is I'm simply not seeing them win neutral like other 4-stars. If they were, she'd probably be busted.

Her advantage state compliments her neutral well enough that some might not notice how little she actually wins neutral, but I really don't see it as that great. I'm going purely off second-hand experience here though. It could be that she just doesn't NEED to win neutral that much.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I was thinking that Dr. Mario and Mario were too close together in neutral and I found this post in the Viability Discusson

While I agree Mario is average in neutral (maybe 3.5), Doc's lack of mobility in comparison isn't fully compensated for by his Bair in my opinion. I'd toss him a half star underneath relative to Mario at 2.5 (based on the list).

Though you said loosely based so... IDK. But he should be a half star below Mario in general.

Indeed. As a Mario main myself, who also dabbles in other characters including all of the "Bros", Dr. Mario's Neutral is a bit less than Mario's by virtue of not having as much mobility. Which also directly influences his flexibility on how he can run away or approach with fireballs. Though it also hinders him beyond his projectile capabilities, as well. So I agree with him being at least ☆ star worse than Mario.

As a random note I would like to throw out to everyone: I am actually doing my best to withhold a lot of my own personal opinions to try to remain neutral on the characters as much as possible, so that I don't accidentally influence the rankings in an overly-biased manner I'll pitch my own opinions in from time to time, however~

As far as neutrals go, I feel like Olimar has one of the best (though I doubt this is a very popular opinion). He has great long range pressure with side b, a spammable fsmash that can keep out many characters very well, a good standing/dash grab, and an amazing pivot grab. I was thinking about characters with strong neutrals like DHD, and I realized that Olimar is one of the only characters I use that can consistently (and almost easily) beat DHD in the neutral. Just my opinion

Seconding Olimar's good neutral, for all of the above reasons. I'd say it's on par or better than Pika/ZSS/etc but I'm not sure if it's quite as good as the 4.5 star guys. I'd still put it at 4.5 stars though, it legitimately is one of the better neutrals across the cast and makes up for his lackluster disadvantage and underwhelming advantage.

Mario's neutral looks a little low at 3 stars but I don't play the character aside from having some fun so I'll see what others think about that before pushing that point.

As someone who has fought a patient and calculating Olimar player before, I agree that his neutral is pretty solid for those who have mastered it. It is excellent for conditioning opponents, especially against people who don't know the matchup.

Nicely done, @ ItsRainingGravy !

Allow me to disagree with Sonic's 5-star rated Neutral.
His approaches get stuffed with virtually every non-laggy projectile, ranged, disjointed, or milti-hitting move.
I mean, he's pretty good as he can punish from virtually anywhere, and he's pretty difficult to catch, but he can't be one of the best neutrals if it's pretty frail and the actual bests flat-out beat his game.

Also, Mario could be higher, his fireball is enough pressure and his moves present little to no lag so he can easily bait and punish.

Thanks! And I really appreciate your help, as well!

Sonic is definitely in a weird position. His Neutral is only okay on paper. Ftilt and Dtilt are pretty nice though. But his aerials all have a ton of landing lag on them, and Utilt is pretty bleh at stopping aerial assaults. However, due to his sheer speed alone, he helps remedy this slight weakness by being able to virtually control the entire stage at almost any given time due to the sheer dumb numbers on his agility. I don't see his Neutral beating Sheik or Diddy myself, so he will probably drop.

Agreed on Mario. Either by raising him up a bit or by lowering Doc +other characters on the same ranking. Not sure yet. Probably the former though atm.

If we're doing .5 ratings I'd be OK with Sheik being the only character with ★★★★★ in neutral. Fox, Diddy, Sonic and Rosaluma would have ★★★★☆, Pikachu and ZSS probably too. LM and Megaman are overrated at ★★★★☆ and Gunner looks better at ★★★★ than at ★★★★☆ imo.

Just to bring a few things we already have into order before we start adding new characters:

★★★★★: Sheik
★★★★☆: Diddy Kong, Fox, Sonic, Rosaluma, Pikachu, ZSS
★★★★: Gunner, Little Mac, DHD,
★★★☆: Greninja, Megaman, Marth, Ike, Mario

in terms of neutral that seems pretty plausible to me.

Yeah. Sheik's neutral is just incredibly oppressive and dumb. In fact, it is so dumb that it might invalidate my rankings system on a "by character" basis instead of a "by performance" basis, as much as I would want to avoid that. Reason being is that, once we start using a "by performance" basis, we will come across the issue of "by how much?". And that's a huge can of worms I want to try to avoid unless there's no other option. But at the same time, I cannot deny just how potent Sheik's Neutral dominates.

I might try to find a work-around that will still work with this current formula once more opinions/rankings are posted. But I'll wait on that for a little while at least, because you never know when a patch will strike~

And that is a solid list you made Quite a number of things I agree with atm.

I agree Sheik has ★★★★★ to herself, no one else can compete on the same level at all in neutral. Needles punish opponents for using basically any other projectile and prevent them from settling to do anything at long range, and her approach, pressure and defensive options are all among the top of their kind in the game.

If grab was ZSS' only problem I'd accept ★★★★☆, but she also lacks the capability to hit grounded opponents with rising shorthop aerials (bar Ganondorf, Rosalina and Bowser) and some of her best OoS options like jab, utilt and in some cases grab miss certain characters in some of their animations, especially when they land from aerials. Examples include Pikachu's fair and bair, Sheik's fair and pretty sure Yoshi's fair as well. Basically, her high hitboxes and bad grab together make her punishing options inconsistent and approach game predictable which is enough to drop her neutral to ★★★★. She still has amazing defense and safer aerial game than anyone bar Sheik, and she still retains other options to hit low animations even if those options are sub-optimal, so at the same time I wouldn't consider anything lower than ★★★★. However, characters who get through that defense easier can be somewhat of a problem to her in neutral.

First: The metagame. Next: Hyrule Warriors. And now: My rankings system. Sheik needs to stop ruining things, lol

Solid opinions on ZSS. Personally, I see her as a ★★★★ right now myself. Since she doesn't have dumb stuff like QAC, Luma, Bananas, or Chili-Dogs like the characters above her do. She DOES have Flip Jump though, which is pretty ridiculous. But debatable when compared to the other things mentioned. Either way, she's in that general ballpark for either group of characters regardless of how you slice it.

One other merit she has is a frame 1 Jab, only rivaled by Little Mac. So there's that at least. So her CQC should never be counted out, especially with her OoS Boost Kick.

Aww, I did like the way this thread let us rank all 3 states at once. Gives you more to write about and discuss. This way does make sense though.

So, a few neutral rankings.

★★★★★
Agreed on Sheik being the only character with 5 star neutral. No-one else has the amount of options she has in such a wide variety of situations. Everything is fast and safe. Even without needles she'd have one of the best neutral states in the game though probably not her own star ranking above everyone else's. I think Diddy has the second best neutral in the game and is closest to Sheik but there are a few characters on Diddy's level.

★★★★☆
As explained above. Diddy has safety, banana stuff, good OoS options, good mobility, it's all good stuff. He's just not as oppressive as Sheik.

★★★★
I feel her neutral is notably worse than Sheik's and a bit worse than Diddy's. Most of my reasoning has been covered already by others. In short, she's still solid in the neutral with great frame data and mobility, but her grab is terrible and her hitboxes can be awkward. Her OoS game isn't bad but it's not as good as those above her.

★★★★☆
I spent a long time deciding on whether to give Pikachu 4 or 4.5 stars for his neutral. Ultimately I think he's on a similar level to Diddy with his small frame, good pokes and good frame data. You could probably argue 4 stars for Pika though, especially as people are starting to get better at dealing with Quick Attack

★★★★
I don't think Greninja's neutral needs to be downgraded from 4 stars. I would have agreed before the shuriken buff but now, his neutral is very solid. Shurikens are great, his mobility is the best in the game overall and he has a surprising number of fairly safe pokes. He has a top 5 dashgrab too. However, his OoS game is terrible. The only reason I don't think it causes his neutral to be lower than 4 stars is that thanks to his mobility, few characters can actually abuse his shield to the point where it makes neutral a struggle. Not to mention ZSS's OoS game, while better, still isn't good, but she still has a 4 star neutral. In comparison to ZSS, I consider Greninja to have the safer neutral because trying to create openings with shuriken is infinitely safer than taking the risks ZSS has to take up close and in general, but her OoS game is better by a large margin. So I think he averages out to being about as effective as her in neutral.

We're probably gonna have to look further down the tier list for this, but do you guys think there's any character with a good neutral (4 stars maybe) and poor advantaged/disadvantaged states (maybe 1 or 2 stars)? I guess Little Mac would be the best example, his neutral is good but his disadvantage clearly sucks and he doesn't really press an advantage against you, he just wins neutral multiple times. Any other characters fit this bill? Perhaps Duck Hunt? Maybe even Olimar but he's probably that bit too good in advantage.

Yeah, it was a necessary sacrifice, I am afraid It let us discuss a lot...though it was too much for people to keep up with unfortunately. Condensing it to one state at the time allows us to focus on the discussion more, and not be lost in seas of text. lol

It was also extremely difficult to use the previous incremental formula since, well...people want to discuss ALL of the characters. So I think that this was a fair trade

Great writeups btw!

My shorthand thoughts on Roy's neutral. Possibly contentious opinions abound!
★★★★

Personally, I think he's got one of the better neutrals in the game, and that it is actually one of the character's strongest traits, especially with having reduced hitlag on his sweetspots,making everything safer on shield. On the ground, his jab and down tilt are amazing moves that cover both grounded and (low) shorthop approaches. Both of these have a good disjoint and both can lead into his good advantage state. Even ftilt can now safely be used in neutral, except MAYBE against the very fastest dash grabs. Spaced properly, both his forward air and neutral air are also safe aerial approaches.

When you combine these moves with his good ground speed, amazing air speed, and fast falling, Roy does a great job at staying just within his reach and just out of his opponent's. These attributes also give Roy a potent tomohawk game, as he can convert a short hop into a grab very quickly, always leaving your opponent having to guess what move you are going to use from a jump.

While it is more niche in use, Roy's up b also has armor when used on the ground, and will kill at decent percents. This forces your opponent to be careful in neutral, and not throw out too many moves when the percents get high, making his emptyhop game even better as your opponent is more likely to stay in shield.

Overall, Roy has a good number of useful moves in neutral and he has the speed both on the ground and in the air to get out of danger when necessary and get back in immediately. Many of his moves convert into his advantage as well, often even when sourspotted. His neutral game is actually somewhat comparable to Yuzuriha from UNIEL, with many decent ranged attacks that,while pretty unsafe on whiff are actually quite safe on block, and with a neutral gameplan revolving around staying outside your opponent's reach and waiting for the right chance to go in deep, where both get their best rewards.

As much as I like Roy, I don't think that his Neutral is better than Marth's actually. He lacks AC aerials in contrast to Marth, and range (sans Fsmash) because of his lack of a tipper and funky anime-disciplined swordsmanship. He's good at going swords a blazin', and his tomohawk game is indeed really good, but he's also kind of limited to those things.

Although I do like Roy more, I feel as though his strengths are a bit in excess...while not being excessive enough, actually. And this hurts him in the long run, because his weaknesses aren't quite as patched up as his blue haired brother-in-arms. And it doesn't quite rival the ★★★★ star group imo.

And once people start to wisen up more to his tomohawk shenanigans, his Neutral game will become even weaker. Since all he could potentially do is SH -> Fair -> Up B/Side B to save himself from being revenge grabbed or potentially worse. Especially from the likes of the frame 6 grab group.

Mega man is no lower than 4.5 stars for neutral, there is no way. He has a ridiculous spacing game with pellets and all of his projectiles. His disadvantage game could be slightly lower as well as his advantage game.

For Mega Man in particular, his Neutral game from afar is indeed pretty nice. Though the Neutral also involved CQC situations, which Mega Man does suffer in. Since almost all of his grounded CQC options are very punishable on whiff or block.

Compared to Sheik, who has an all-in-one top tier projectile package in Needles, while also yielding far more potent CQC and mobility specs, 4.5 for Mega does seem a bit inflated.

I dunno, megaman seems to kind of fall apart when the opponent has any sort of long-range game of their own. Definitely a stellar neutral, but it seems weaker than pikachus/diddys. I think 4-star is more accurate.

4-star is still really damn good and probably the level where characters like Yoshi, Ness and maybe even ZSS will end up. Megaman doesn't belong there, let along on the same level as Diddy. There's nothing special about his neutral game.

I think that it'll end up around the ★★★☆ area or so in time. Maybe ★★★. Because it is just a little too specified. It's great at shutting down characters that can't really deal with it ( and other lower-tiered characters ), but the moment another character brings their own projectiles, a reflector, and/or good mobility and CQC specs into the fray, it falls apart little by little. Only very smart play and matchup knowledge/the opponent's inexperience can make Mega Man's Neutral better imo, and that's only for specific matchups.

Metal Blade is nice though, but only because of its many applications and throwing directions.. However, because it only deals 3% unless picked up and thrown, it isn't exactly that threatening in the grand scheme of things.

I saw these things as a Mega Man player myself, btw. His Neutral is good, but having a kit where the majority of your moves as projectiles doesn't always translate to a character having a top-tier Neutral.

For a similar yet not nearly as extreme example: See Samus.

I also think that nearly anything Mega Man can do, Mii Gunner can do better. His CQC and mobility specs are far more promising from a competitive perspective, and his Neutral game from afar is still quite solid thanks to bombs, Fair, and other neat tricks.

I agree with this. 4 star is more accurate for him than 4.5 stars but still too high I think. I guess it depends how you look at it. If you consider him as winning neutral every time he hits you with a pellet then of course you'd think his neutral is amazing but that's not really how things play out.

Roy doesn't belong in the 4 star group either for that matter.

Yeah. Both Mega Man and Roy are a bit lower than perceived, imo.



All from me for now But I just wanted to say that the topic is already looking MUCH better. Great work, guys!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Nairo is just generally a monster when he has the avantage and he's just really exceptionally good at getting in there. It's been that way in Brawl already and it's no coincidence that he ended up with the characters that have the best advantaged states. If you watch some of the more "conservative" ZSS players like Choco or quiksilver or Nick ... you get a pretty good idea how well she performs in neutral.

I kinda see where you're coming from though. Perhaps it'd be better to hold up on rating her neutral yet and see where the rest of the cast fits in to see with whom she can be compared.

 

[Kaladin]

I want to talk about Wario's neutral, because it's quite the interesting case. I give it *** 1/2 -****. There are three main reasons I believe Wario has an excellent neutral:

1. Unless you have the stock lead, you are always forced to approach. Against Wario, there's no such thing as a %lead, because you are always at fart kill %. Always. Thus, Wario applies the best pressure in the game by not applying pressure. Not only does he excel at paitent and defensive play, he is rewarded for it with a stock. Additionally, when the fart is charged, the fear is real, which allows for all sorts of mindgames.

2. Chomp. You cannot space with non disjointed moves. You cannot sheild on platforms. You cannot spotdodge. You cannot force approaches with most projectiles. You. Can't. Do. ****.

3. Wario's airspeed. Due to Wario's absurd airspeed, with proper bobbing and weaving, nair and fair are almost totally safe on sheild. Retreating autocanceled bair is the spacing tool of the gods. I won't go into a whole lot of detail here, but wario's mobility is on point.

 

[Nobie]

What? Mega Man loses to characters with their own projectiles? It's the opposite, I think. He specializes in fighting other projectile users because pellets overwhelm most other things, Metal Blade has a ton of quirks, and Leaf Shield beats other projectiles outright despite being such low damage. It's only particular weird projectiles like Link bombs and Needles that are sort of an issue.

 

[Gawain]

Indeed. As a Mario main myself, who also dabbles in other characters including all of the "Bros", Dr. Mario's Neutral is a bit less than Mario's by virtue of not having as much mobility. Which also directly influences his flexibility on how he can run away or approach with fireballs. Though it also hinders him beyond his projectile capabilities, as well. So I agree with him being at least ☆ star worse than Mario.

As a random note I would like to throw out to everyone: I am actually doing my best to withhold a lot of my own personal opinions to try to remain neutral on the characters as much as possible, so that I don't accidentally influence the rankings in an overly-biased manner I'll pitch my own opinions in from time to time, however~




As someone who has fought a patient and calculating Olimar player before, I agree that his neutral is pretty solid for those who have mastered it. It is excellent for conditioning opponents, especially against people who don't know the matchup.


Thanks! And I really appreciate your help, as well!

Sonic is definitely in a weird position. His Neutral is only okay on paper. Ftilt and Dtilt are pretty nice though. But his aerials all have a ton of landing lag on them, and Utilt is pretty bleh at stopping aerial assaults. However, due to his sheer speed alone, he helps remedy this slight weakness by being able to virtually control the entire stage at almost any given time due to the sheer dumb numbers on his agility. I don't see his Neutral beating Sheik or Diddy myself, so he will probably drop.

Agreed on Mario. Either by raising him up a bit or by lowering Doc +other characters on the same ranking. Not sure yet. Probably the former though atm.


Yeah. Sheik's neutral is just incredibly oppressive and dumb. In fact, it is so dumb that it might invalidate my rankings system on a "by character" basis instead of a "by performance" basis, as much as I would want to avoid that. Reason being is that, once we start using a "by performance" basis, we will come across the issue of "by how much?". And that's a huge can of worms I want to try to avoid unless there's no other option. But at the same time, I cannot deny just how potent Sheik's Neutral dominates.

I might try to find a work-around that will still work with this current formula once more opinions/rankings are posted. But I'll wait on that for a little while at least, because you never know when a patch will strike~

And that is a solid list you made Quite a number of things I agree with atm.

First: The metagame. Next: Hyrule Warriors. And now: My rankings system. Sheik needs to stop ruining things, lol

Solid opinions on ZSS. Personally, I see her as a ★★★★ right now myself. Since she doesn't have dumb stuff like QAC, Luma, Bananas, or Chili-Dogs like the characters above her do. She DOES have Flip Jump though, which is pretty ridiculous. But debatable when compared to the other things mentioned. Either way, she's in that general ballpark for either group of characters regardless of how you slice it.

One other merit she has is a frame 1 Jab, only rivaled by Little Mac. So there's that at least. So her CQC should never be counted out, especially with her OoS Boost Kick.


Yeah, it was a necessary sacrifice, I am afraid It let us discuss a lot...though it was too much for people to keep up with unfortunately. Condensing it to one state at the time allows us to focus on the discussion more, and not be lost in seas of text. lol

It was also extremely difficult to use the previous incremental formula since, well...people want to discuss ALL of the characters. So I think that this was a fair trade

Great writeups btw!


As much as I like Roy, I don't think that his Neutral is better than Marth's actually. He lacks AC aerials in contrast to Marth, and range (sans Fsmash) because of his lack of a tipper and funky anime-disciplined swordsmanship. He's good at going swords a blazin', and his tomohawk game is indeed really good, but he's also kind of limited to those things.

Although I do like Roy more, I feel as though his strengths are a bit in excess...while not being excessive enough, actually. And this hurts him in the long run, because his weaknesses aren't quite as patched up as his blue haired brother-in-arms. And it doesn't quite rival the ★★★★ star group imo.

And once people start to wisen up more to his tomohawk shenanigans, his Neutral game will become even weaker. Since all he could potentially do is SH -> Fair -> Up B/Side B to save himself from being revenge grabbed or potentially worse. Especially from the likes of the frame 6 grab group.


For Mega Man in particular, his Neutral game from afar is indeed pretty nice. Though the Neutral also involved CQC situations, which Mega Man does suffer in. Since almost all of his grounded CQC options are very punishable on whiff or block.

Compared to Sheik, who has an all-in-one top tier projectile package in Needles, while also yielding far more potent CQC and mobility specs, 4.5 for Mega does seem a bit inflated.




I think that it'll end up around the ★★★☆ area or so in time. Maybe ★★★. Because it is just a little too specified. It's great at shutting down characters that can't really deal with it ( and other lower-tiered characters ), but the moment another character brings their own projectiles, a reflector, and/or good mobility and CQC specs into the fray, it falls apart little by little. Only very smart play and matchup knowledge/the opponent's inexperience can make Mega Man's Neutral better imo, and that's only for specific matchups.

Metal Blade is nice though, but only because of its many applications and throwing directions.. However, because it only deals 3% unless picked up and thrown, it isn't exactly that threatening in the grand scheme of things.

I saw these things as a Mega Man player myself, btw. His Neutral is good, but having a kit where the majority of your moves as projectiles doesn't always translate to a character having a top-tier Neutral.

For a similar yet not nearly as extreme example: See Samus.

I also think that nearly anything Mega Man can do, Mii Gunner can do better. His CQC and mobility specs are far more promising from a competitive perspective, and his Neutral game from afar is still quite solid thanks to bombs, Fair, and other neat tricks.



Yeah. Both Mega Man and Roy are a bit lower than perceived, imo.



All from me for now But I just wanted to say that the topic is already looking MUCH better. Great work, guys!

I strongly disagree that Marth has a better neutral. Autocancels aren't everything and for the most part they're just for making whiffed things safe, which isn't what Roy does. Roy controls space by being in it, not necessarily by putting hitboxes out all the time. Marths neutral is really just jab 1 and spaced aerials. His grab game isn't that threatening and he's not fast enough to make landing grabs super easy. Roy pretty much always does around 20+ off of his confirms; nair, jab, grab, and sometimes dtilt and fair. He also has kill setups from grab and jab (though they are admittedly less effective vs floaty and high air speed characters). Marth is basically only guaranteed a kill off a sour jab or a very high percent throw. Because of this, opponents have to be more respectful of Roy in neutral. Having threatening moves in neutral is like half the battle. The more dangerous your safe confirms and especially your grabs, the better your neutral.

I am not seeing how Roy isnt at least close to being as good as ZSS or Greninja in this regard.

 

[Trifroze]

No, I'd say ZSS's neutral is 3.5 at best. Observing how nairo and other ZSSs play, I just don't see them winning or even trying to play neutral much. Why? I'm not sure, but the end result is I'm simply not seeing them win neutral like other 4-stars. If they were, she'd probably be busted.

Her advantage state compliments her neutral well enough that some might not notice how little she actually wins neutral, but I really don't see it as that great. I'm going purely off second-hand experience here though. It could be that she just doesn't NEED to win neutral that much.

Nairo plays really aggressive though, and I think it's simply in his playstyle to overwhelm the opponent and then play advantage exceptionally when he gets it. He does it because he can and it works for him, but approaching isn't ZSS' strong point, instead it's her defense. Most of the recent top level videos of Nairo are versus Sheik, Pikachu and Diddy which are matchups where ZSS can't really benefit from it that much.

Although ZSS' grab has setups, down smash can be thrown out safely, her falling aerials like bair, nair and zair are straight up safe and paralyzer is unpunishable unless she fires it right next to the opponent, it's all very predictable because all those actions are slow and your opponent knows when they're coming. In approaching that really matters because most of the time your opponent won't be straight up hit by these things and if you move in too close, you lose all of that safety you had. However in defense predictability doesn't matter at all when there's nothing the opponent can do about it and you control more space than they do until they, more likely than you, make a mistake. ZSS controls space very well but isn't as good at invading the space of others. In nearly every scenario though the opponent's space is smaller, and she just outspaces them until she hits with something.

In something like ZSS vs Sheik her neutral doesn't really get to shine, and like said earlier if you want to see a player focus on ZSS' neutral more then Choco is probably a better watch.

EDIT: I do have to add that regarding the ratings, not going to shut out 3.5 either depending on how the spread will end up overall.

 

[FullMoon]

I strongly disagree that Marth has a better neutral. Autocancels aren't everything and for the most part they're just for making whiffed things safe, which isn't what Roy does. Roy controls space by being in it, not necessarily by putting hitboxes out all the time. Marths neutral is really just jab 1 and spaced aerials. His grab game isn't that threatening and he's not fast enough to make landing grabs super easy. Roy pretty much always does around 20+ off of his confirms; nair, jab, grab, and sometimes dtilt and fair. He also has kill setups from grab and jab (though they are admittedly less effective vs floaty and high air speed characters). Marth is basically only guaranteed a kill off a sour jab or a very high percent throw. Because of this, opponents have to be more respectful of Roy in neutral. Having threatening moves in neutral is like half the battle. The more dangerous your safe confirms and especially your grabs, the better your neutral.

I am not seeing how Roy isnt at least close to being as good as ZSS or Greninja in this regard.

Well for one thing Greninja and ZSS have projectiles to cause more pressure, though paralyzer is kinda meh for that (I think) but it's still something you have to respect because of what she can get out of it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There are several points I'd like to add here:

* If Sheik is the only character with 5 stars the whole system gets skewed and the upper half of the list might not result as accurate. I think we may rate her 5+, or simply put her at 5 and grouping runner-ups with her for the sake of a better 50+ character list.

* I really think some people are confusing the Neutral state with the Advantaged state, at least with ZSS. She has little to no means to approach and she can't really do a whole lot if the opponent just wants to wait and predict/react to her moves. Her Advantaged state is overwhelming once she's started applying pressure and following up her moves, but if she doesn't, or can't because the opponent is better at controlling their own space, she usually gets some trouble. Sure, her moves are safe, but as any Shulk could relate, safety is not everything. Personally, 3½ looks fine.

* Diddy could easily get a banana rating and a banana-less rating. It's a game-changer. Same with Rosalina with and without Luma, but this can too be considered just a Disadvantage state.

*Yoshi's neutral is pretty good based on mobility alone and how good he is at baiting moves

* Sonic's neutral might not be on par with Diddy, Pikachu, Rosa, etc. He has to commit pretty hard to punish, lacks real safety other than running away, and he has a very weak CQC game.

I pretty much agree or have no real opinion with the rest of the current-topic characters.

 

[san.]

Ike's values may be +0 to -0.5 depending on how other characters are valued since other characters have lower values than I thought they were going to have. Going to wait until they settle a bit more.

 

[DunnoBro]

Wario's neutral is really hard to rate imo. If it wasn't for waft you'd have no qualms about camping the **** out of him.

 

[NegaNixx]

There are several points I'd like to add here:

* If Sheik is the only character with 5 stars the whole system gets skewed and the upper half of the list might not result as accurate. I think we may rate her 5+, or simply put her at 5 and grouping runner-ups with her for the sake of a better 50+ character list.

I do think this is the way to go we should keep the amounts in each rating even (5-6) in each that way we don't have an inflated mid tier and get a clear cut preliminary showing of who's better than who. We can adjust after we finish the preliminary round.

On Marth's Neutral, I believe it's a solid nominee for the 4.0 level neutral, Marth excels in using movement and passive aggression not to garuntee follow ups but to garuntee stage control, positional advantage is the most important thing, and Marth can weave in and out of his ideal footsies range (just beyond sword range) easily using, N-Air, F-Air, D-Tilt, B-Air, Extended Dash Trotting, and Short Hop Air Dodge, Marth pressures by pushing you out of his presence while Roy pressures by being in your presence. Roy tries to break your game, Marth tries to play his own, and Marth has many more options in comparison to Roy, putting him ahead of him in the rankings in my opinion.

3.5 Marth
3 Roy

 

[Shaya]

ZSS' neutral is ... interesting. And all my time and labbing involves improving it and it has quite a lot of room to grow.

ZSS' mid range game isn't like Meta Knight's, but is likely up there as one of the best. Her mid range overall is kinda insurmountable for everyone in the cast bar Sheik. If your character can't function well at mid range or doesn't have solid answers close, she dominates them (hint: why sonic loses, heck why MK loses badly too, it's a big part to why we beat rosalina).
She dominates fatties although their neutrals against other good characters would look a lot better. Why? because zair is too easy, nair is too easy, up air becomes a lot easier and ftilt outpokes them all on the ground.

I don't know if it was mentioned here or in the CI, but ZSS' oos options are utterly top class, there's really nothing better in the game bar diddy holding a banana or sheik forward air (without customs).
8 Frame transcended dash attack, up-b, jab, up tilt and -grab- give her a crazy amount of diversity in her out of shield options, she does have aerial options too but not as universal (but if you're in the air and hit our shield that means death). "Did shaya just say zss grab!? what an idiot", well, ZSS grab defensively is perfectly fine, in fact in a lot of match ups it breaks the opponent's ability to do much to her and is a lot more useful than a standard grab would be.

ZSS has issues in two particular match ups that unravel her "neutral": Mario and Ness.
They actually get heavily outspaced by ZSS and cannot hold a candle to her at mid range. However Mario can continually throw out 3 frame GTFO moves and as a super light character who prefers the air, his up smash as a punish is a large struggle for her. Overall it's just mario having a bit of "good" cheese in disadvantage and a trump card that kills us at 100% that will punish most moves of ours on his shield. If ZSS didn't focus on trying to get into advantage from the air to clinch stocks or respecting his disadvantage, then what is mario doing but getting walled out?

Ness is a character who only wins because of his disadvantage/advantage states. Double aerial action (air dodge or nair/uair usually) are ridiculously hard to challenge. He will be able to kill her sub 90% with uair if ZSS messes up while he's in disadvantage, and otherwise nair is huge and high damaging too. But otherwise his mobility sucks, his range is average and he often gets his **** kicked in during a game before he builds up rage, at which point what does he do? Stands near the ledge and does nothing but hold shield and dash grab, because ZSS is dying to his back throw with medium rage at 80%. ZSS attempting to break through and finish his stock is so so so so so heavily one-sided in Ness' favour due to this abusive balance (that just about everyone hates) that she ends up losing.
If ZSS wanted to play a game of timing him out (not really looked into by our players in any way yet) I don't know what he would do, because he doesn't really have any buttons that beat her nor does he have punishes that aren't read based (dash grabbing after taking a hit on shield is IT, and it's rarely if ever a real punish).

Both can fight her in neutral I suppose, sh air dodge landing uair from ness indefinitely is more efficient than trying to actually hit your opponent and mario in the air with smart fireballs and landing aerials is challenging. But this is only if ZSS has to approach. Why is she approaching when her mid range is just THAT MUCH BETTER THAN THEIRS?

While Sheik has skyrocketed ahead in potential and ability, ZSS is quietly sitting in the back brewing.

Oh and this is why I don't think ZSS has that much of an issue with Pikachu. She loses neutral to him, 100%, but that's not what really hurts ZSS at tournament level a lot of the time, it's the character's disadvantaged state jank or the upper limit of their advantage (due to how punishable she is on a big mess up) that messes with her. Pikachu can't just hold shield against ZSS and take games like Ness can, and he has to play scared ****less of her shield because he's incredibly light with much worse rewards than what ZSS is going to get.

-

A lot of this rant doesn't exactly clash with people's thoughts thus far, but it'll probably save me time in the future.
Who does ZSS lose to in neutral? Sheik, Pikachu, banana holding Diddy, maybe Fox.
Megaman is getting rated highly here yet loses neutral [more often than not] to ZSS due to zair (eats lemons/significantly out ranges his kit, combos into things) and dash attack.