Work In Progress Competitive Neutral, Advantage, and Disadvantage Character Rankings (Outdated)

[ItsRainingGravy]

I think it might be helpful to discuss the absolute best/worst in each respective field to get a sort of placeholder for perspective.

It'd also likely generate more... enthusiastic debate when conversing the "best/worst" in a category.

Best/Worst in Neutral so far: / ()

Best/Worst in Advantage so far: /

Best/Worst in Disadvantage so far: /


And looking at the lists atm, a lot of characters need to be scaled down right now~

 

[Shaya]

Well personally I would look at Lucina and think... better advantage state than jiggs/samus by far, has good traps, disjoints, fast punishes (fsmash)
Ganondorf is probably up there in terms of best advantage within the context of those bottom 11. If he gets a dash attack, grab, side-b, etc, he's setting up hard, it's a lot more likely then Jiggs getting a fair/nair WoP for a stock or a hard punish with rest.

I have no idea about gunner specs to really differentiate.

 

[DunnoBro]

Jiggs is kind of hard to gauge between her states honestly.

On the ledge is still part of her neutral, whereas a disadvantage state for most chars. Kind of hard to gauge her disadvantage itself too since she gets out of a lot of combos, but dies early too...

Her advantage really doesn't seem too great though. Having the ability to WoP and edgeguard in this game is great, but still not that potent.

I'd say her disadvantage state was overall her best feature, not her advantage. She's very hard to pin down and keep down, but she really doesn't keep pressuring people herself. Due to her weakness of shields, she's often forced to retreat. Which is fine cause she can function offstage.

 

[Zorcey]

Oh. I actually just noticed that we were supposed to be discussing the low/bottom tier characters atm. Sorry for disorganizing the thread with the Peach interjection.

As for the debate going here, I'd agree that Samus' Advantage Game is being overrated - her follow ups aren't exactly stellar, and she lacks guaranteed hits. I'd also add that her poor Neutral is being somewhat exaggerated. She does have an arsenal of projectiles, after all, and can Zair and... stuff. Obviously she won't be beating out Sheik anytime soon, but I think ★, or even ★☆ would be more appropriate. Maybe drop a star or a half star off of Disadvantage, too.

I played an egregious amount of Jiggles when the game first came out. Her Advantage Game is not nearly as good as has been indicated. Her strings have lost their Melee glory by a long shot, and so gone are the days of bair after bair after bair into the blastzones. Jiggly has one good strategy until she gets patched - poke poke poke until 50-60% and then Rest. (I use "good" as a relative word here.) Like most/all the low-tiers, she is extremely dependent on her reads, and just can't make the most out of a hit.

That said, stringing dash attacks against scrubs is the most fun you will ever have.

Lucina's Advantage State being considered "slightly below average" doesn't seem right. (btw you probably know there's an issue where the worst ranking in Advantage for the low/bottom tiers is just "slightly below average" - of course, I don't think Lucina is low/bottom tier in the first place...) It's a little difficult to point out any specific attacks, since she can use pretty much everything she has in this state, so I'll just say she can string pretty comfortably. But considering her disjointed hitbox and the numerous traps at her disposal, she deserves a higher rating here. Probably ★★★☆ imo.

 

[Browny]

Without the tipper, opponents are more confident to approach/rush down Lucina. The risk to get hit is the same, but the punishment is not.

I'm so mad at this.

The punishment is greater on Lucina most of the time, not every hit from Marth is a tipper and more importantly his GTFO dsmash is far more likely to non tipper. You said it yourself that tippers are a non-factor in disadvantage, then you say that marth gets greater reward at trying to relieve rushdown pressure?

Your sentence starts talking about advantage state but you just go on to list everything describing their defense.

You can't just assume that Marth is always going to be getting a tipper. The majority of the time in defense hes not and in all of those cases, Lucinas punishment is harder

 

[Shaya]

But sour spots in disadvantage can combo/follow up. I don't think we tend to look at disadvantage as "what bull **** they have to then kill the opponent" (it's apart of it though and is seen on the best characters with it) but bar forward smash just about everything is either as good as lucina or better. And "spacing in disadvantage" would... still be a thing, disadvantage is the trapping state and you'd be surprised how often I would break free on their landing trap with a well spaced aerial. In fact, in essence, their joint getting out of disadvantage is weaving to a point fair/nair/uair/dair/bair [maybe fast fallen] is going to out space your punish or hit you first.

Otherwise I suppose there's the consideration of counter existing which is neutral between them.

@ DunnoBro
Yeah I would agree, her best trait would be disadvantage. Her neutral and advantage are average to mediocre, likely close to worst here, maybe samus having a worse advantage and zelda having a worse neutral?

I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with saying it's as good as WiiFits, but out of those 11 I think they're clearly ahead, maybe Mewtwo could rear his head nearby.

 

[DanGR]

I'd like to post about Rosalina's states, but I don't know how to go about including states with and without Luma. It's important to consider both, but it depends heavily on the matchup whether or not Luma-less states are relevant. In that sense, her states can be quite volatile. Thoughts?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Regarding Marth & Lucina: I agree with @ Shaya that the difference between Marth's and Lucina's advantaged stage shouldn't be that high. If we just added a point to her advantaged state though I'd basically +1 the numbers posted by @kyokoro_pamuyo tbqh. They seem pretty accurate.

Regarding DHD: I think it's OK to add him in the OP because I don't think there's a lot of people that would argue the numbers posted by @ DunnoBro in a remarkable fashion. The only thing that could turn out to be debatable is the * for advantaged state depending on how the rest of the cast is being rated but that's something time will tell.

Regarding Jigglypuff: A very hard to rate character because she's so extreme. Her disadvantaged state seems strong and her mobility allows for some pretty smooth transition from disadvantage -> neutral -> advantage in some situations. I believe @ TheReflexWonder is somebody who could bring some valuable insight on the table.

 

[Nintenpro]

Neutral:★★
Slow moveset, Gordos are easily reflected in neutral and DDD is pretty slow ... DDD can't do really well in neutral.

Advantage:★★★★
The part where DDD is really good. He covers a lot of options with his long range moves, and can put a lot of pressure with his gordos (especially when they are in the ledge).

Disadvantage:★★
Big target, he has the slowest airspeed in the game... the only thing which save him is his multiple jumps.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd like to post about Rosalina's states, but I don't know how to go about including states with and without Luma. It's important to consider both, but it depends heavily on the matchup whether or not Luma-less states are relevant. In that sense, her states can be quite volatile. Thoughts?

Yea her states are definitely volatile. I think just the likelihood of luma not being around should be considered for her overall disadvantage state rather than specifically analyzing her with/without.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Are we talking "stats" in relation to the metagame or across the cast as a whole?

 

[DunnoBro]

Are we talking "stats" in relation to the metagame or across the cast as a whole?

Easier to compare to other characters, less variables than an entire meta. Though I don't know how othrs have been doing it...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'd like to post about Rosalina's states, but I don't know how to go about including states with and without Luma. It's important to consider both, but it depends heavily on the matchup whether or not Luma-less states are relevant. In that sense, her states can be quite volatile. Thoughts?

Yea her states are definitely volatile. I think just the likelihood of luma not being around should be considered for her overall disadvantage state rather than specifically analyzing her with/without.

We could also just treat Rosalina and Rosaluma as two different characters.

Are we talking "stats" in relation to the metagame or across the cast as a whole?

It's probably the latter and the hopeful results of this entire projet will be an accurate represenation of the meta ... does that make sense? Cause that's the way I'm looking at it.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I don't think Samus' advantage is grand at all. If advantage is meant to mean "single instance of reward only", then just say "Rewards" (and even under that consideration they're significantly worse than others with multiple rewarding actions with set ups). Because otherwise Jiggs and Samus, both only have high rewards on highly niche moves with little to no true set ups into them doesn't deserve more than minimal rating of advantage.

You're confusing neutral and advantage. Advantage is what you get off of a hit, a guaranteed opening in defence, bad positioning.
The fact that they have no setups to get them into them is a lack of neutral game.
It's when you have the good situation, not how you get into the good situation. Set ups are taken out of the equation.
If Samus gets a combo starter/tech chase in you can be in for a world of hurt or dead. The problem is getting those starters "in" in the first place.
A good counter example is Megaman, which I play as well. Megaman lands a dash attack - what's the worst that can happen? Megaman lands an up-tilt - what's the worst that can happen? You go down the list of his moves and you realize, well, not much. You've launched them in the air - same question. They're offstage, what are you going to do? You have b-air, d-air, essentially. Maybe a metal blade harass, maybe maybe a leaf shield or footstool. B-air trump is respectable, but it's not like you're going to charge-shot trump them, or aim for a guaranteed tether trump. You're not going to follow them to the blastzone with f-air, n-air. Reality is you're constantly resetting to neutral and you're chip, chip, chipping away. You're never going to convert an up-tilt into 50 damage like Samus. It just won't happen. N-air is basically the only move that produces a tech chase. Love the character, really do, but he's not designed in smash4 for advantage. DHD is another great example of low advantage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Lack of consistent frame traps/kill confirms generally lends itself to a poor advantage state. 4.5 stars out of 5 means nearly perfect, but honestly your description only makes it sound about usable.

Also her neutral as .5... I think your ratings might be just a touch extreme.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Here are initial thoughts on Jigglypuff:

Neutral: ★
Abysmal mobility outside of horizontal air mobility/speed, and things like dancetrotting and run turnaround cancel do almost nothing to help. Frame data is bad (relies on Frame 5 Jab/Dash Attack in many cases), range is bad, base knockback is low (punished on hit for many "good" moves at low percents). Aerials are often unsafe on shield or lead to neutral-ish frame advantage, where the opponent likely has better options than Jigglypuff. Horizontal aerial mobility allows her to space against some of the bigger/slower characters well with rising aerials, but very prone to trades, which Jigglypuff almost always loses due to lightness. Down-B is incredibly punishable, but a command that makes you invincible on Frame 1 and has great KO potential on Frame 2 cannot be ignored. It means that you have to respect her rolls and airdodges, mostly. Most backward rolls are impossible for Jigglypuff to chase safely, so it's an easy way for opponents to get out of pressure, and since she's so reliant on her aerials, shielding is very safe. Slowest fastfall in the game means that empty jumps can be rolled away from on reaction, severely hurting her grab potential. Longest airdodge animation in the game means that it can be rolled away from on reaction. Just incredibly predictable without a whole lot to make it work, especially when the universal defensive options are so strong against her tools.

Advantage: ★★★☆
A number of lingering aerials do her a lot of favors; N-Air, F-Air, U-Air, D-Air, and Forward-B have relatively low cooldown and lock down space well when the opponent can't swing back, as well as do solid damage between them (~10% on average and usually lets you continue pressuring). Except for U-Air (due to hitbox location), these all do a good job of edgeguarding and keeping people from getting off the ledge, as well as catching the ledge snap vulnerability frame; she's one of the best characters at doing so reliably/effectively. Slowest fastfall speed in the game means you don't have a lot of flexibility in terms of "falling with an opponent" to juggle/edgeguard, but the lingering hitboxes and multiple jumps mitigate this somewhat. Horizontal aerial mobility means it's often difficult for opponents to escape via drifting, but if they get ahead of you just a tiny bit they get back to comfy neutral pretty easily. Aerials often combo into themselves at lower percents, and D-Air -> Down-B is a reliable KO confirm that works at around 30-50%. If she could chase opponents a little more effectively, she'd be an absolute monster here.

Disadvantage: ★★★★
Being so floaty makes her less susceptible to many standard combos. Most characters like to mash Jump in order to get away from bad situations, but she has five mid-air jumps so she's never at risk of being without the ability to go upward. She finds disjoints annoying, but the strength of airdodges in this game combined with her horizontal aerial mobility help mitigate that issue, and she can always just go around the stage to the ledge if she feels uncomfortable. Below-average tech rolls don't matter when you can always jump out of tumble. Has an aerial stall in Forward-B that can be steered vertically and has a large hitbox to protect her at the ledge. She is the only character who gets a lot from airdodging into an edge; she can refresh her jumps and ledge invincibility with very little risk to herself, and she can do this from a Ledge Jump or even a Ledge Drop. You'd think this would play into a reasonable neutral state, but she's still reliant on invincibility frames and doesn't have many angles to poke at people safely.

 

[Coffee™]

Really like this thread. Had a similiar idea a few days ago, but I'm glad someone went ahead and posted something like this.

Any thought to changing the stars to a numerical system though? Like a previous person mentioned the star thing is a bit tedious on phones and most people already identify with a numerical system well for stuff like this. 1-10 would work fine imo.

Either way, will post on Mewtwo in a bit. I dont think his neutral is ** though.

 

[Red Shirt KRT]

Neutral:

what can i say other than, lemons

Adv. :

Not fast enough to really combo a whole lot, gets most of his damage from chip damage from projectiles, although has a pretty good edgeguard game

Dis Adv:

Gets juggled really easy because he is a fast faller and doesn't have a ton of ways to get out of things other than his supper quick Nair

 

[DungeonMaster]

Lack of consistent frame traps/kill confirms generally lends itself to a poor advantage state. 4.5 stars out of 5 means nearly perfect, but honestly your description only makes it sound about usable. Also her neutral as .5... I think your ratings might be just a touch extreme.

There has to be a worst and there has to be a best otherwise there's no point in classification. I definitely feel Samus' neutral is the worst in the game and I think her advantage state is extremely good, close to the best but perhaps not the absolute best. That was the ranking system proposed, I stick by my guns. I said she lacked frame traps. With frame traps (true frame traps, not missused smash jargon) she would be top tier advantage state.
Without going into great detail better served for other threads there are many combo kill confirms out of other moves such as super-missile -> CS, up-air (sour)->up-B, jab1 + smash, tech chases out of z-air, f-tilt. They're difficult to setup, but they are consistent. They even greatly nerfed f-tilt for the record. Are you going to simply let me land those at the precise positioning I need? It's the setup, the neutral, that's the problem.
From my original list did you really want more to be near-to-top? 50+ damage combos, combo starters tech/chases out of nearly every move, aerial true combo follow ups, shield break kill combo, kill out of every aerial, etc... Not every character can satisfy those claims, let alone simultaneously. This character has problems but she's actually really strong in advantage, once you get those hits in bad *** happens.

 

[Raijinken]

Short of some decent up-air tricks, I'm inclined to call Samus's advantage below-average at a very generous best. Minimal offstage safety for chasing, projectiles are minimally useful for edgeguarding (bar custom missiles and Dense Charge Shot, which are a bit less safe to airdodge through). Same for neutral due to the sheer punishability of her projectiles, and her slow tether grab (though grapple beam stabbing has some uses against some characters). I'd give her a favorable disadvantage score between bomb jumps, the tether grab, and floatiness, but her inability to safely land with much of anything aside from an opponent willfully eating a dair means that I wouldn't give her disadvantage more than 3.5, being generous.

Using that as my explanation, I'd go with

Advantage:☆
Neutral:★☆
Disadvantage:★★★

Which seems a lot more in-line with her perceived viability.

I do think it would be wise to benchmark examples of minimum and maximum scores for each category. It can give more people a more reliable (and scaled) frame of reference.
If I may contribute my own opinions on such information...
Advantage
Best:
Worst:

Disadvantage
Best:
Worst:

Neutral
Best:/
Worst:

There are several that I think are pretty close to these in terms of benchmarking, but this will do for now.

 

[Zorcey]

Wait, Robin having the worst Neutral in the game seems off. Shouldn't that honor be given to Palutena or Ganondorf?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Which seems a lot more in-line with her perceived viability.

Yeah we definitely could do a popularity contest from a pool of people who largely have no idea what they're talking about - or you could ask people who actively play the characters and have contributed to their respective metagame.
Up to you guys. I've said my peace.

 

[Infinite901]

Gonna post my thoughts on both of my mains.

Jigglypuff:

Spoiler

Neutral: ★ And maybe just ☆ becuase her neutral is abysmal. It completely relies on spacing sh-nairs and sh-fairs, jabs or ftilts followed by rolling away, and the occasional dash attack or Pound. Her terrible grab range, lack of ground mobility, reliance on aerials, and lackluster throws and followups makes her grab game especially lacking in a game where shields are as safe as they are.

Advantage: ★★☆ It's not great, but it's good. She can often follow up her aerials with another aerial, especially when sourspotted. (Sh-sourspot-nair/fair to f-tilt is a nice little combo) Also one good read above ~55 percent and you can land a kill. Her dash attack can also tech chase pretty well. However, her lack of range often neuters her followup capabilities.

Disadvantage: ★★★ While this was her best aspect in Melee with everyone else falling like a brick, I wouldn't say it's particularly good now. I'd call it average. She can break out of combos that may even be guaranteed on most of the cast, and if she's getting pressured she can often just retreat with her superb aerial mobility and reset to neutral (which of course is terrible so this isn't usually a good option.) Getting pressured off-stage can also sometimes lead to a reversal to advantage and sometimes a stock off the opponent. But, her light weight and trouble landing hold her back.

Mega Man:

Spoiler

Neutral: ★★★★☆ Mega Man's neutral is his shining light. He's got his lemons, disjointed fair and bair, and great dash-grab, a pretty safe dtilt, a dash attack that covers back-rolls, the second-strongest up-tilt in the game (second only to 's monstrosity), Metal Blade shenanigans, up-air keepaways, a relatively fast up-smash, and did I mention Metal Blade? I would be willing to say that he has one of the best neutrals in the game. Top 10 definitely, possibly top 5 if we wanna push it.

Advantage: ★★★ He can get some nice combos off of d-throw, and his edgeguarding is on-point. However, a lot of his moves don't combo well and he often has to reset to neutral.

EDITED: Disadvantage: ★★ He's somewhat polarizing in this aspect. Leaf Blade and Up-air are great keepaway tools, his up-b doesn't put him into special fall and can escape some combos or rapid jabs safely. and he has good methods of resetting to neutral. However, his fastfalling makes him easier to edgeguard that most, and his up-b isn't all that far, and has no hitbox. He also has a bit of trouble landing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Guys, you gotte be a bit realistic with your numbers. Megaman having ***** in neutral would essentially mean that his neutral is on par with Sheik. That's not in the cards. Not by a long shot.

If Megaman actually had a ***** neutral he'd be pretty much undisputed top tier. No way, guys.

Advantage
Best:
Worst:

Disadvantage
Best:
Worst:

Neutral
Best:/
Worst:

There are several that I think are pretty close to these in terms of benchmarking, but this will do for now.

Sheik has the best neutral game. Diddy and Fox are the only character that can rival hers. I think ZSS is the character with the strongest advantaged state though and the one with the best disadvantged stat would probably be like Pac-Man? Does Pac-Man even have a 'disadvantaged' state at all?
But uh, I think we should leave that for later. Once we've got all the individual characters covered we can take a look at inconsistencies and stuff.

So basically what we have regarding Jiggs is that her neutral game might as well not exist, that her advantaged state can be worked with and that her disadvantaged state is her main selling point. I think Reflex' numbers look solid enough so I'd go with that.

I dunno a lot about the other characters that are considered bottom tier. We could leave them for later or just make educated guesses. Whatever floats your boat.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah we definitely could do a popularity contest from a pool of people who largely have no idea what they're talking about - or you could ask people who actively play the characters and have contributed to their respective metagame.
Up to you guys. I've said my peace.

You need a more universal understanding of the game + the character to make an accurate rating of them. Considering you're a veteran samus main, it's highly likely your perspective is skewed.

There's no way samus neutral is worse than ganondorfs or DKs. She beats luigi in neutral, most characters can't do that.

Wait, Robin having the worst Neutral in the game seems off. Shouldn't that honor be given to Palutena or Ganondorf?

Yea, robin's neutral can't be that bad if they have approach forcers. Can't deal with other characters with them really, but it's more workable than say... Ganon who needs to approach almost 100% of the time with laggy moves.

If Megaman actually had a ***** neutral he'd be pretty much undisputed top tier. No way, guys.

I think a 5star neutral is a bit much, but plenty of chars have great neutrals and are ass. If sheik's advantage/disadvantage weren't about equal to her neutral (great) she'd be much worse. See brawl sonic for great neutral, meh advantage/disadvantage.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Well personally I would look at Lucina and think... better advantage state than jiggs/samus by far, has good traps, disjoints, fast punishes (fsmash)
Ganondorf is probably up there in terms of best advantage within the context of those bottom 11. If he gets a dash attack, grab, side-b, etc, he's setting up hard, it's a lot more likely then Jiggs getting a fair/nair WoP for a stock or a hard punish with rest.

I have no idea about gunner specs to really differentiate.

I agree with all of this. Lucina can also do Nair -> Up B at later percents which is pretty decent-ish with rage; especially with the 1.08's buffs to her Up B's knockback and Nair's landing lag reduction.

I also think her Neutral is better than Doc's and Sword Fighter's because of her disjoint, and her AC aerials. She should definitely move up in both categories (relative to the others at least).

And yeah, there's no way Samus/Jiggs are that high if they they rely on one-hit-wonder tactics during very specified situations or percents. Granted, I do think Samus is at least higher than Jiggs because of Charge Shot, and there being more variety in the way she can be played.

Gdorf's Advantage, while also pretty "reward" based, indeed should be better because a single attack from him equals some characters' Dthrow -> Uair combo shenanigans, while also sending them careening off of the stage faster than Sonic sprinting towards an all-you-can-eat Chili-Dog buffet. Plus he has Side B techchase shenanigans and stuff like Ftilt/his recently buffed Dsmash to work with.

Jiggs is kind of hard to gauge between her states honestly.

On the ledge is still part of her neutral, whereas a disadvantage state for most chars. Kind of hard to gauge her disadvantage itself too since she gets out of a lot of combos, but dies early too...

Her advantage really doesn't seem too great though. Having the ability to WoP and edgeguard in this game is great, but still not that potent.

I'd say her disadvantage state was overall her best feature, not her advantage. She's very hard to pin down and keep down, but she really doesn't keep pressuring people herself. Due to her weakness of shields, she's often forced to retreat. Which is fine cause she can function offstage.

I would say that Jigg's Disadvantage state is at least better than Mewtwo's due to having solid frame data moves in Nair/Fair/Dair to also help her get out of combos, and the fact that she can make far better use of her weight than Mewtwo can. So I think her current assessment is fair (relative to the other characters anyways).

I see her sort of like Wobbuffet oddly enough.

Extremely limited in how she can be played, mostly relying on baiting her opponent's aggression leading to fairly dumb rewards off of her very specific "counters" (Rest and WoP). But if she doesn't play her cards right, or when facing the wrong opponent, she's nothing more than a punching bag for the next few minutes.

WoP is nowhere near as good as it used to be either when almost anyone not named Little Mac can recover now, and I think the new ledge mechanics actually hurt Jigglypuff because she can't really threaten anyone off-stage as much as she used to.

Her disadvantage is easily her best state, but beyond that she is pretty bad. So I agree with you. With stuff like projectile-based characters (Mega Man/Mii Gunner/etc) also snuffing her out in the Neutral, there isn't much she can really do in this game unfortunately. All she has claim to is the egde, which can now be used against her as well because of ledge-trumping.

Oh. I actually just noticed that we were supposed to be discussing the low/bottom tier characters atm. Sorry for disorganizing the thread with the Peach interjection.

As for the debate going here, I'd agree that Samus' Advantage Game is being overrated - her follow ups aren't exactly stellar, and she lacks guaranteed hits. I'd also add that her poor Neutral is being somewhat exaggerated. She does have an arsenal of projectiles, after all, and can Zair and... stuff. Obviously she won't be beating out Sheik anytime soon, but I think ★, or even ★☆ would be more appropriate. Maybe drop a star or a half star off of Disadvantage, too.

I played an egregious amount of Jiggles when the game first came out. Her Advantage Game is not nearly as good as has been indicated. Her strings have lost their Melee glory by a long shot, and so gone are the days of bair after bair after bair into the blastzones. Jiggly has one good strategy until she gets patched - poke poke poke until 50-60% and then Rest. (I use "good" as a relative word here.) Like most/all the low-tiers, she is extremely dependent on her reads, and just can't make the most out of a hit.

That said, stringing dash attacks against scrubs is the most fun you will ever have.

Lucina's Advantage State being considered "slightly below average" doesn't seem right. (btw you probably know there's an issue where the worst ranking in Advantage for the low/bottom tiers is just "slightly below average" - of course, I don't think Lucina is low/bottom tier in the first place...) It's a little difficult to point out any specific attacks, since she can use pretty much everything she has in this state, so I'll just say she can string pretty comfortably. But considering her disjointed hitbox and the numerous traps at her disposal, she deserves a higher rating here. Probably ★★★☆ imo.

You're fine XD This is still an experimental thread, so a lot of mistakes are bound to happen. Heck, I made a few already

As for Samus, her missiles aren't super great in the Neutral since almost everything in the game can beat them out (or they can easily be dodged), Charge Shot is limited only to when she has it and she would rather keep it for guaranteed situations such as off of a Utilt confirm, and Bombs are pretty worthless. Zair is solid but is also pretty wonky and has a poor hitbox, which is further complicated in accuracy and predictability by her moon jumps. However, as for it being dead last on the Neutral rankings, I am not sure.

All good points about Jigglypuff~

I agree XD The rankings on Advantage are a bit bloated atm. Hopefully that will smooth out in the future though And yeah, Lucina is moving up in her Neutral/Advantage states for sure (not sure about Disadvantage yet tho).

I'd like to post about Rosalina's states, but I don't know how to go about including states with and without Luma. It's important to consider both, but it depends heavily on the matchup whether or not Luma-less states are relevant. In that sense, her states can be quite volatile. Thoughts?

VERY good point! She would have to be considered as two separate characters in regards to this topic because of this. I think that she is the only character who will get this treatment, though. Only other character I can think of would be...Lucario w/Aura? But that's a whole 'nother can of worms that I don't even want to think about yet, lol

We need a Luma smiley to help represent her placings

Yea her states are definitely volatile. I think just the likelihood of luma not being around should be considered for her overall disadvantage state rather than specifically analyzing her with/without.

This works too, though~

I think it would only truly matter for her Disadvantage since she would be running away most of the time while Luma is gone anyways lol

Are we talking "stats" in relation to the metagame or across the cast as a whole?

@ ~ Gheb ~ said it perfectly. Also, amazing writeup on Jiggs!

Really like this thread. Had a similiar idea a few days ago, but I'm glad someone went ahead and posted something like this.

Any thought to changing the stars to a numerical system though? Like a previous person mentioned the star thing is a bit tedious on phones and most people already identify with a numerical system well for stuff like this. 1-10 would work fine imo.

Either way, will post on Mewtwo in a bit. I dont think his neutral is ** though.

Thanks! Had this idea for about a month or two myself XD

Maybe. I'm not quite sure yet. I don't want to use a number/letter system because it becomes hard to discern those out of wall-o-text topics such as this one, and I want something that is immediately eye-catching (such as the stars) so that people have far easier times comparing character data to help form discussion and debates around those ratings.

I do sincerely apologize to phone users though. I completely overlooked it. But for now, the use of something like asterisks or other eye-catching symbols are fine. And I am still open to suggestions.

Can you use smilies? Because smiles such as , , or even simple ones like are all fine (the Kirby one might be the best imo since it is small and doesn't have an animation). Just as long as it is very easy to see the rankings you have given your characters, it is fine

I do think it would be wise to benchmark examples of minimum and maximum scores for each category. It can give more people a more reliable (and scaled) frame of reference.

We could try that. But for now, I want to see if the current methods being employed are effective before doing something like that...yet~

Wait, Robin having the worst Neutral in the game seems off. Shouldn't that honor be given to Palutena or Ganondorf?

I personally really doubt Robin having the worst Neutral in the game myself; especially after the massive buffs to his Thunder/El Thunder/Arc Thunder.

His Disadvantage state, on the other hand, sucks pretty bad. Not nearly as much as Little Mac's, but it is definitely not that good.

Yeah we definitely could do a popularity contest from a pool of people who largely have no idea what they're talking about - or you could ask people who actively play the characters and have contributed to their respective metagame.
Up to you guys. I've said my peace.

One way you can help sway the argument in the argument in your favour is by posting video examples of what they can do. Maybe that will help out!



Okay, I...think that is enough writing from me for now XD

 

[DungeonMaster]

You need a more universal understanding of the game + the character to make an accurate rating of them. Considering you're a veteran samus main, it's highly likely your perspective is skewed. There's no way samus neutral is worse than ganondorfs or DKs. She beats luigi in neutral, most characters can't do that.

Yes it's entirely possible that my perspective is skewed, just like yours could be on DHD.
I will however give you the benefit of the doubt for sinking in countless more hours into DHD than I have and weigh your opinion highly (and I do weigh your opinion on DHD highly irrespective of this conversation).
I put Samus' neutral right around the same level as Ganon and DK in fact, which is to say bottom tier, or the star I've listed. That's not to say there are no winning neutral matchups, a plumber that skids every time you hit his shield is a good one, it's just that advantageous neutral is few and far between for Samus.

@ ItsRainingGravy Sure thing, here's an old montage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

 

[DunnoBro]

I use lots of other characters than DHD, I don't even main him anymore.

 

[Nu~]

the one with the best disadvantged stat would probably be like Pac-Man? Does Pac-Man even have a 'disadvantaged' state at all?
But uh, I think we should leave that for later. Once we've got all the individual characters covered we can take a look at inconsistencies and stuff.

It depends...if your hydrant is already on the ground, it's harder to get out of disadvantage.

Although, side B and down air (which makes you fall twice as fast as pacman's normal fastfall) make it easier to get out of disadvantage as well.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Neutral: ☆
Advantage: ★★★★☆ (Opponent is offstage) / ★★☆ (Opponent is not offstage)
Disadvantage: ★★

Neutral: O lawd. Jigglypuff's neutral is so bad it would be funny if it weren't just depressing. Potentially the worst neutral in the game. Jigglypuff is completely shut down by shield. Sure, retreating nair and fair are somewhat safe, but what's even the point if you can't touch your opponent? Pound does not break shields in a single hit, which means your opponent can safely shield any of Jigglypuff's approaches without fear of having their shield broken as long as their shield is full or close to full, which is very likely considering how quickly shields regenerate in Smash 4. And of course, let's not forget how incredibly easy perfect shielding is in this game, so their shield will never really be within breakable range for Pound against Jigglypuff. A smart opponent can perfect shield any of Jigglypuff's approaches, and if they have projectiles then they can tack on some damage in the mean time.

Advantage: I split this up into two categories. If the opponent is off the stage, this is when Jigglypuff gets her chance to shine. Jigglypuff is a master at gimping. If your opponent decides to recover low against Jigglypuff, they have made a grave mistake. Nair has a massive hitbox which lasts an extremely long time. Throw out a nair near the ledge and your opponent will be unable to do anything. And her amazing recovery means she has no problem getting back onto the stage. However, if your opponent is not off the stage, Jigglypuff has some trouble. She has no true combos out of grab, and few true combos otherwise. If the opponent is above Jigglypuff, her only real option is uair, which is an okay aerial, but is quite slow. She does have one very good thing, however, which is that fair chains into itself and can carry an opponent all the way into the blastzone. I've also been told that soft hit fair and dair combo into Rest, although I've never done it before.

Disadvantage: Jigglypuff's floatiness can help her escape from combos, which is great. The problem is what to do afterwards. Jigglypuff is terrible at landing. Her floatiness means that she takes a very long time to fall, so your opponent has plenty of time to react to whatever landing option you choose. If you want to land on the stage, she has trouble stopping someone who tries to intercept her with an uair, as her dair isn't very good. If Jigglypuff is offstage, she has a slightly easier time getting out of a disadvantaged state, but still not very easy. Although her recovery is phenomenal, Jigglypuff has no up B and no hitboxes above her, which means that she is actually very easy to gimp. She has no way to respond to someone who goes offstage to gimp her, and once she runs out of jumps, she has no up B to give her a final push to get onstage.

 

[FullMoon]

Some characters can still hit Pac-Man after he throw the hydrant with multi-hit Up-Airs like Greninja or Sheik for example. There's probably a few others that can do something similar

That's from my experience at least, Pac-Man's disadvantage is still crazy good though. I would probably give it 4 stars and a half just because there are characters that are sillier in disadvantage like Pikachu.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I'm questioning the low scores on advantage for ganon, again mainly due to damage output and stuff like the TnS that leads to guaranteed follow-ups such as f'smash.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yea ganon's advantage seems good. It's just he so rarely gets advantage due to a poor neutral.

Choke, Dash attack, dthrow, and his edgeguard game are pretty decent. It's just that the situations for him to utilize them don't come up enough.

 

[Macchiato]

imo

Best/Worst Neutral: /
Best/Worst Advantage: /
Best/Worst Disadvantage: /

But that's just my opinion

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah we definitely could do a popularity contest from a pool of people who largely have no idea what they're talking about - or you could ask people who actively play the characters and have contributed to their respective metagame.
Up to you guys. I've said my peace.

I know nothing of your reputation whatsoever, I only know my own experiences and observations, and the general perception of Samus. When neither of those seem conducive to giving her a high advantage score, then while I think you've got some valid points, I can't give any more weight to what you say than to what anyone else says. That said, if you're a reputable Samus player, I'd love to watch some of your matches, as I enjoy the character a lot, and would like to be wrong about how poorly I perceive her.

imo

Best/Worst Neutral: /
Best/Worst Advantage: /
Best/Worst Disadvantage: /

But that's just my opinion

Even with defaults Palutena has some pretty solid followups to her moves, and with customs (which I don't recall seeing if that was declared relevant or irrelevant in this thread), she's got really nice advantage options.

And I wouldn't consider Shulk's disadvantage to be worst. Jump mode makes his recovery pretty crazy (if relatively predictable), and the variable Monado forms let you change just how bad your advantage or disadvantage is (to a degree) at any given time. He can also punish an overly-aggressive player with Vision if there's a break in the combo.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I still think that Little Mac has among one of the absolute worst Disadvantage states simply by virtue of having a ~50% "health bar", in a game where most characters have a ~100% "health bar".

That, and having cruddy aerials with poor range that don't really add much for him (they have their rare uses though). But at least he has a counter I guess? (And Up B)

So does Shulk though. And while Shulk's frame data is horrendously bad, at least he can take more of a beating than an angry piñata with boxing gloves.

 

[DanGR]

After thinking about it for a while, I don't think we should look at Luma-less Rosalina as a separate character from Rosa+Luma, and categorize them separately. It's disingenuous towards the purpose of this rating system to look at Rosalina in disadvantage and say that any time Luma is knocked away, Rosa+Luma is no longer in a disadvantaged state because that disadvantaged state suddenly transfers over to lone Rosalina. The same thing extends to neutral and advantaged states. Rosalina losing Luma to stray hits in neutral/advantage should count as a negative against her in those states- not just marking the beginning of Rosalina-without-Luma, the character.

And if we do the reasonable thing and simply account for the chance of losing Luma in RosaLuma's states, then there's not much of a point in including a summary for the characters separately, IMO. Therefore, I considered both Rosalina+Luma and Rosalina without Luma in my ratings.

---------------------
&

Neutral: ★ ★ ★ ★ ☆

Spoiler

Rosalina's main tools here are jab spacing, star bits, a variety of types of nair spacing, and fox trots and retreating rolls.

The usual gameplan here is to slowly move forward like a tank, using jab pressure and star bits as a way to force a reaction from the opponent. Her movement options are best used as a way to prevent opponents from aggressing on a stationary target. Rolling back can lead into Luma jabs as a punish if they aggress during her roll, while fox trotting maintains use of her more immediate options at the cost of sometimes being susceptible to burst range attacks. Obviously, gravitational pull negates a lot of projectile usage but it doesn't totally eliminate their pressure, as a lot of people erroneous think. Megaman is a good example of a character that can use his projectiles with great effect at mid-range.

Most of the non-high/top tier characters can't safely threaten Luma while moving forward, and can't break Luma jab wall + star bit zoning very effectively. They're either too slow, or their aerials have too much end/landing lag and not enough range. They have to take risks that can be punished easily with Rosalina DA's incredible burst range.

Those that can do well in neutral versus Rosalina either have excellent tools for breaking her zone altogether (Captain Falcon dash grab, for example), can safely threaten Rosalina and Luma at the same time (Ike big sword), or have an equally good defensive game in the matchup that can't be beaten with just jab spacing and shooting bits (Link). Rosalina's offense is pretty weak compared to her defense, so if Rosalina can't pressure them into making a move, they're probably better off not approaching at all and playing more reactively.

4.5 stars seems like the right rating where Sheik easily has 5 stars, while Rosalina has to deal with Luma death occasionally.

Advantage: ★ ★ ★ ★ ★

Spoiler

I'm hesitant to recognize Rosalina as the first 5 star character in advantage, but I think it's warranted. It's pretty clear she has a better advantaged state than 95% of the cast, including every character mentioned so far in this thread. She just has too many tools to keep the pressure coming. She's top tier at keeping her opponent in the air with upair's massive range and low endlag. She's floaty enough, but fast falls quickly enough to be able to shadow most characters' movements as they try to land. Upsmash's head intangibility makes it impossible to beat straight on, while its range reaches high enough that airdodging through it is usually punishable. Dash attack's burst range and disjoints let it cover most landings that upsmash won't. Finally, Rosalina has several ledge trap options that severely limit her opponents' options in getting back on stage. If you don't have a get-out-of-jail-free-card down-b or up-b like Pikachu, Sheik, etc. or your aerial mobility isn't better than Rosalina's, you're in for a really rough time. It's nothing short of oppressive.

Disadvantage: ★ ★ ★ ☆

Spoiler

I'll be the first to point out how annoying Luma can be in interrupting strings and followups, and how positively it influences her disadvantaged state. However I also think 99% of the smash community hasn't come close to optimizing their anti-Luma strategies as soon as they put Rosalina in disadvantage, and learning and using their true combos against Rosalina as opposed to their attack strings. When you get hit by Luma while following up on attacking Rosalina, yeah it's really annoying. It's bad game design. It's bull****. She should be rebalanced around that mechanic being removed. I've heard it all, and I get it. But it's 100% on you for making as silly a mistake as it is landing on an opponent's shield with an attack. The mechanics in play here are consistent and predictable. So get better.

Aside from that, Rosalina is a big, floaty target. Being big just sucks, while her floatyness can work for or against her depending on the opponent. For the most part, it helps, but some characters get true kill combos at obscenely low percents. She can sometimes get out of attack strings with Luma, and her excellent air dodge combined with pretty solid aerial maneuverability, and some good lingering hitboxes can go a long way in getting back to neutral.

Her disadvantaged state is better than most, but certainly not top tier. She doesn't have one of the meta-centralizing escape option special moves. She's extremely light (5th lightest), which I am taking into account in my rating. (Should I not include weight in my assessment?) 3.5 stars also takes into account Rosalina's disadvantaged state when Luma is dead, which is manageable, but not pleasant.

 

[san.]

People seem to be rating these like a standard system, was I mistaken by treating 3 stars as average vs. the cast and going from there?

 

[wedl!!]

adv: ★★☆
neutral: ★★★★☆
dis: ☆

mac is the game's true glass cannon; hits twice as hard as everyone else but takes hits twice as hard.
his neutral is one of the best in the game (near the realms of /), given his great pokes, high mobility, and safe jab. however, most of his moves aren't safe on shield, so he's forced to play safe. most characters are forced to respect jab and his tilts, because most characters cannot contest their range or speed.
once he gets an advantage, mac is deadly. his dtilt/jab are fast moves which lead to big strings, and he can kill at obnoxiously early percents with his fast, high knockback, armored smashes, and KO punch, which is ridiculously easy to set up. i'm preventing myself from 5-starring his advantage due to his lack of a good throw game (excluding dthrow>up-b which only works for so long) and edgeguarding capacity (d-smash hits far below the edge, but isn't that reliable).
once mac loses a lead, however, the stock might as well be over. his bottom-tier recovery coupled with being light+fastfalling and lacking reliable get-out-of-jail cards (up-b is invincible frame 1 but only gets you so far. counter reads are nice but can be baited).

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

People seem to be rating these like a standard system, was I mistaken by treating 3 stars as average vs. the cast and going from there?

You are not mistaken. However, most people are going to have difficulties transitioning their opinions from a "Good/great/bad/etc in this area!" kind of scaling to a "This character is here relative to the other characters based upon their overall performance in this respective state".

Of course, I am not excluding myself from this, either. But once more and more characters are slowly introduced into the system, hopefully people will get the swing of things~