[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

[Myran]

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but does anyone have tips for Olimar vs Ness?
It seems like his PK fires always catch onto my desynced Pikmin and give him a lot of field control. Also can you give me some anti-juggling tips (not just against Ness, but in general) as Olimar? I can't figure out what to do to get back onto the ground sometimes unless I just aim for the edge and try to get back on there, but that's not always a safe choice.
Thanks!

Q&A thread would be better, but I'll try to answer your questions anyway. For Ness just camp him out like normal and try to use reds to catch the PK Fire. You can even fsmash through it with a red and if Ness runs in he's gonna get hit. As for juggling it's kinda character dependent in some cases you can try to land with a nair or dair if you know you can beat their attack. You could also just try to airdodge through them and land. Like you said going to the ledge is a tactic, and it can be the best option in some cases. You could also try using your upB in the air and cancelling with a nair if they overextend to much in the air.

 

[Blue Banana]

Sorry if this is the wrong place for this, but does anyone have tips for Olimar vs Ness?
It seems like his PK fires always catch onto my desynced Pikmin and give him a lot of field control. Also can you give me some anti-juggling tips (not just against Ness, but in general) as Olimar? I can't figure out what to do to get back onto the ground sometimes unless I just aim for the edge and try to get back on there, but that's not always a safe choice.
Thanks!

After fighting (and losing) matches against some Ness players on For Glory, I have these tips for you:
- Don't get grabbed. It sounds like an obvious tip, but this is much more important against Ness because he has a lot of options he can use when he grabs you, depending on your percentage:
At low percentages, he'll Dthrow you and follow up with one or two Fairs, usually guaranteed.
At mid percentages, he'll Uthrow and juggle you with PK Thunder.
At around 90-100%, he can Bthrow you for a KO.
Because of this, it might be ideal to not use your shield too frequently, as that will just prompt Ness into grabbing you. Keep this in mind if he approaches you with dash attack, as that might just condition you to shield in response to Ness's dash. I can't stress this enough: don't get grabbed.
- Don't underestimate the range of his Fsmash. The bat's hitbox is larger than its actual size makes it to be, and since all of your smashes are projectiles, you need to be cautious when approaching if the Ness player likes to swing the bat a lot. At long range, reflecting thrown Pikmin isn't too much to worry about since they don't do much damage initially and can be recalled by Down B, but be wary of throwing purples.
- PK Thunder can be cancelled by Dair (maybe only with yellows? can't remember), but it isn't too reliable since Ness can manipulate the direction in any way he wants. As for avoiding the juggling, I'm having trouble with it myself, so I can't offer advice on that.
- If you escape the juggling from PK Thunder, be extremely cautious in punishing him while he's vulnerable, as he can direct Thunder into himself and smash you for probably a KO. Bait out the Thunder charge attack by getting close to him, then shield or jump above him. That should allow you to punish with a grab or a sourspot Fsmash.
- Dash attack has a lot of priority and hits 3 times, so shield or do a retreating short hop depending on the situation.
- Fair and Usmash(?) also has a lot of priority, so be careful when you're chasing Ness in the air for aerial followups or if you're recovering from Thunder juggling, respectively.
- PK Fire has only 2 trajectories: straight along the ground, and a downward angle in the air. If you're close enough to punish, short hop over grounded PK Fire. If not, red Fsmash or red Side B will ignite PK Fire early, like Myran said.
- Don't get grabbed.

These might be inaccurate because I don't have much experience with this matchup yet, but this is what I experienced and thought about.

 

[GhettoNinja]

Now granted I didn't main Olimar in brawl so I don't really have a frame of reference but I absolutely love playing Alph(Olimar) because I just love how I feel like I'm in complete control of Alpha which is something I haven't felt with the rest of the cast(it doesn't help I switch between this and Pm daily) also I personally like the knock back from the pikmin though I do feel its kinda pointless to have different types when at most you have 3 on the field and personally the yellow pikmin seem the most useful and I also like his aerials but that's just a personal preference. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Master Morrison]

I'm actually a brawlimar main and I used him in pm and now using him in smash 4 and I got to say
He is pretty awesome
At first I was pretty angry at all the nerfs he got because
He really was a messed up top tier character
And if it wasn't for metaknight he would have run rampant
But anyways
He plays basically the same
Reds have become much more useful in this game because they kill, give great damage, and have a lot of knock back
If you don't have a purple that is
His fire elemental property insures that he will nullify or go through most fire attack
In which case you can attack through like rob's nair when they clash
Red down throw is guaranteed a follow up because of it's low knock back
I haven't found much use for yellow pikmin because it's range doesn't seem significant enough to be better
And most electric attacks have been changed to non elemental attacks
Like Zelda's smashes and ness's sparkle attacks
So when I get a yellow I just toss it either into incoming attacks or off stage and it's throw potential is better left to the other pikmin
Blue is always my favorite
He is a beast. His grabs do the most damage and can kill
Up throw kills at relatively low damage
Because it's easy to get opponents to 120+ damage
Back throw isn't killer but it gives a whooping ~15 damage which is crazy for a throw
And combined with pikmin that you have thrown on the opponent it can easily give over 20 damage
Purple is great good finisher
Great to kill with bair
You can punish shielded smashes and whiffed grabs with forward smash and it will kill about 110
White is great after the patch now
They do about 2-3 damage each hit
And the best thing about it is that it's fast and silent
It doesn't make much of a sound when you throw it like the other pikmin do and the opponent won't realize it's on them until they see the poison glow on it
Olimar is fast
He can put speed a lot of characters and out camp most characters
So he is very solid
I used to fear little macs because of how fast they are
But with a couple of pikmin on him
It slows him down when he tramples them
It gives you time to react
Forward smash has been buffed incredibly
It used to be obsolete because upsmash was better but fsmash is so fast and strong
But be careful all olimar smashes can be reflected back at him don't know why they made them projectiles but they did

 

[Master Morrison]

Also pikmin pick up items and bring them to olimar or well at least until they jump
Because they tend to drop them
Also they latch onto some breakable objects like sandbag and or rob's gyro
So if you don't see them
Then they are stuck attacking something
Also if they are latched onto something like the gyro
They apparently flinch opponents that go by the gyro that they are attacking
Well on the wii u anyways
I have some good videos of my olimar
I will try to upload them so people can check him out

 

[IcyLight]

Olimar is definitely really really good in this version. I used to play oli back in brawl and I feel like he is much better in this one. He doesn't need to spam side-b, he has like 10 different combo followups out of his grabs at different %'s, his combo game in general is crazy. He also has an incredible recovery, which held him back before.

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

I think we should really get to making a separate, more organized individual match-ups page sorta like the olimar's matchup directory page on the brawl forums where it has pictures and u click on them and it is a sublink to the actual individual matchup page.
Im sure it would be more efficient and really help us out when Myran or someone can get to it on their off time or something.
Much less of a hassle and if yall need me to do anything to help I can, Im new here but I main oli since brawl days but I wanna see the olimar metagame for smash4 become something better ya know and so far I feel all this info is jumbled up into one thread scattered everywhere > . <

 

[Myran]

I think we should really get to making a separate, more organized individual match-ups page sorta like the olimar's matchup directory page on the brawl forums where it has pictures and u click on them and it is a sublink to the actual individual matchup page.
Im sure it would be more efficient and really help us out when Myran or someone can get to it on their off time or something.
Much less of a hassle and if yall need me to do anything to help I can, Im new here but I main oli since brawl days but I wanna see the olimar metagame for smash4 become something better ya know and so far I feel all this info is jumbled up into one thread scattered everywhere > . <

Gonna start one sometime soon.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

http://youtu.be/GAdbHc8ngW4
Me vs Wizzzrobe

U guys probably kno Wizzzrobe id not then he's one of the best sm4sh players and possibly the best pm player and I played on his stream. This is one of the battles we did so critique and please give advice thanks.

 

[Myran]

http://youtu.be/GAdbHc8ngW4
Me vs Wizzzrobe

U guys probably kno Wizzzrobe id not then he's one of the best sm4sh players and possibly the best pm player and I played on his stream. This is one of the battles we did so critique and please give advice thanks.

Idk about best smash 4 player, he's alright.

 

[Ridel]

http://youtu.be/GAdbHc8ngW4
Me vs Wizzzrobe

U guys probably kno Wizzzrobe id not then he's one of the best sm4sh players and possibly the best pm player and I played on his stream. This is one of the battles we did so critique and please give advice thanks.

You did pretty good, everything I would have done in that situation you did as well! But there are a few things I would work on. Firstly spamming F-Smash can be punished if they run up and shield so don't use it to often but it is reletivly safe and an effective stalling tactic to regain your footing. Also when F-Smash stalling be warry that your Pikmin will take a good amount of time to return to you so I would only throw out two so that way you have one incase they decide to shield approch, this allows you to get in a quick grab. Though Olimar's jab is fast and a good "get off me" move, it can be punished on shield so play it safe and use this as aditional pressure . Don't be to agressive as Olimar, though he has alot of power and some good combos, he has a really safe defensive game. He has a good amount of ground speed and attacks with good range so capitalize on this by focusing on your opponents failures. Baisically focus on reads and punishes to get most of your damage and KO's. Also I would suggest using "Dash Dancing Shield" (don't know the official name) to bait your opponent toward you.

Any questions fellow youngster?

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

You did pretty good, everything I would have done in that situation you did as well! But there are a few things I would work on. Firstly spamming F-Smash can be punished if they run up and shield so don't use it to often but it is reletivly safe and an effective stalling tactic to regain your footing. Also when F-Smash stalling be warry that your Pikmin will take a good amount of time to return to you so I would only throw out two so that way you have one incase they decide to shield approch, this allows you to get in a quick grab. Though Olimar's jab is fast and a good "get off me" move, it can be punished on shield so play it safe and use this as aditional pressure . Don't be to agressive as Olimar, though he has alot of power and some good combos, he has a really safe defensive game. He has a good amount of ground speed and attacks with good range so capitalize on this by focusing on your opponents failures. Baisically focus on reads and punishes to get most of your damage and KO's. Also I would suggest using "Dash Dancing Shield" (don't know the official name) to bait your opponent toward you.

Any questions fellow youngster?

Oh thanks for the advice and I play so offensively because I main. Wii fit trainer and I'm used to being offensive and then throwing projectiles sometimes. Other than that thanks

 

[-The Gucci Fairy-]

I was playing this shiek earlier and I felt like I just couldnt escape his endless combos and spamming fair it was really frustrating with alot of pressure on me >.< any pointers ? I tried fsmash but his priority seemingly cancels it out...maybe do them less obvious? idk..

 

[IcyLight]

Use d-tilt to stop his approaches and combo out of it. Also lots of pivot grabs

 

[Myran]

The problem is that good sheiks don't run in for free... It's important to wait for them to actually commit to an option, power shielding is pretty big when being able to punish the approach of sheiks aerials more. I'd work on that, and learning what your best options for stopping her are.

 

[StripedNinja]

Any Duck Hunt strategies? I think that's the character I struggle with most.

 

[Myran]

Any Duck Hunt strategies? I think that's the character I struggle with most.

Your Pikmin can mess up his can and make it explode. (Not totally sure how it does it, but it can) Pretty much just out camp him, make him approach and punish his poor offensive options. Shielding the projectiles is key.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Your Pikmin can mess up his can and make it explode. (Not totally sure how it does it, but it can) Pretty much just out camp him, make him approach and punish his poor offensive options. Shielding the projectiles is key.

The aerial ("kicked") Can explodes on damageable entities, so Pikmin Toss will trigger it. Also worth noting is that Pikmin that are latched onto DHD can trigger the Can explosion if he's close enough to touch the Can; it's a niche feature, but it's worth noting.

But yeah, basically what Myran said. Butterfinger Pikmin (Side B 3) is a good custom move choice in this matchup if you're able to pick it.

 

[Freezie KO]

What are everyone's favorite tactics and mindgames with Olimar? If we share, we can build a better knowledge base of small tricks that work against other players.

Here's some of mine:

- Fixed recovery gimp - For characters with predictable, fixed recoveries, if you knock them really far out, it can be very easy to see the trajectory of their recovery. Throwing a purple into their trajectory can force two things: they get hit; or they air dodge and don't have enough time to get back to their recovery. Great against Toon Link, Link, Lucina, Marth, Captain Falcon, Mario, etc.

- Nolimar nair/up-tilt recovery combo - When I'm getting juggled with no pikmin, my opponents always expect me to try to land back on the stage as far away from them as possible. Sometimes as a mix-up, I'll go directly towards them. If I can land into them with a nair, I can usually get the up-tilt combo. At that point, they'll DI away because they weren't expecting the combo. And that's the perfect time to pluck three pikmin. Great against characters without ridiculous rangey up-tilts

- Pivot Purple Pikmin Toss - Everyone knows this one, and it's probably how I throw pikmin 75% of the time. But most specifically, I always make sure to know if there's a purple in tow. If you can bait them to chase you Tom-and-Jerry-style and you pivot throw a purple, you can quickly turn a defensive situation into a string of offense. Great against rushdown and baiting Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Greninja, etc.

- Going deep - I think people don't expect Olimar to go deep, but his recovery is amazing, especially since you can't be edgehogged. If you go offstage with 1 pikmin, you can almost guarantee that you'll be able to make it back. Sometimes I'll even throw 2 of my 3 pikmin offstage at the opponent before jumping off and going super deep for a fair or a dair spike. And if they try to recover low directly next to the stage just run off, hug the wall and dair spike them. Great against characters without multiple jumps or amazing recoveries.

- Pikmin toss recovery - I love to carefully aim my pikmin onstage as I'm recovering offstage. They either rack up damage if I hit my oppontent or they'll be there when I get back. But while I'm offstage, I have stronger pink pikmin recovery. Great against everyone.

- Dtilt combo - This is my bread and butter at early percents. It can be just as inescapable as Sheik's ftilt. If they get hit, they fall right back into the next dtilt. If they try to air dodge, they get hit again. I can often hit 3 dtilts before they get popped up directly into my up-tilt. Then I follow up in the air. Great against fast-fallers.

 

[StripedNinja]

Thanks guys, I didn't know Pikmin could be so disruptive of his can game. It's been much easier to deal with Duck Hunt since

 

[Myran]

Just a quick thing in regards to what Freezie was listing. Pivot F-Smash, pretty much when both people are in close quarters and the opponent is on the defensive or in his shield you can usually mind game them into getting hit. Most people will respond immediately to Olimar running away from them, because of this you can run back and immediately pivot fsmash. Not much more to it, they'll expect to be safe once you start running, but they get hit.

 

[Trieste SP]

I had my doubts on Olimar but the way Rich Brown plays him inspired me to main him. I can safely say Olimar is a threat if you don't know how to counter him.

 

[Angbad]

I think that Olimar is really close to being top tier. The whole pikmin flying around and not being there with olimar all the time is a major issue.

 

[Myran]

I think that Olimar is really close to being top tier. The whole pikmin flying around and not being there with olimar all the time is a major issue.

I'm gonna talk about this issue with my main focus being on the Wii U since the desyncs are much better on there. Yes Pikmin do still randomly desync or get messed up in your line. That doesn't really detract from the characters overall potential though. Paying attention to the placement of your Pikmin and Olimar can almost always tell you if the attack will be a ghost attack. For instance if Olimar only has one Pikmim and proceeds to do a down throw if he tries to follow up with a fair it might not work. This is dependent on how long you wait to follow up with the fair. There is a work around though, just use a nair instead. Sometimes they also drop out of your line in the air, but whistling can usually get them back to you. I know there isn't always something that you can do to prevent this, but there are most definitely ways to avoid this. I don't consider it much of a set back to his overall character at all really. Awareness is the best way to prevent the desync from turning into an unfavorable situation.

 

[Freezie KO]

Speaking of desyncs and pikmin not being there, does anyone else have a problem with pivot grabs sometimes? It seems like sometimes I get pivot ftilts when I go for pivot grabs. I don't really run into this problem with other characters. Is this due to a pikmin not being accessible in my line?

 

[Leonyx]

I get this problem all the time, but I think it's more of a Smash 4 problem since it happens to me with other characters, and I had an easier time doing pivot grabs in Brawl.

 

[Myran]

Speaking of desyncs and pikmin not being there, does anyone else have a problem with pivot grabs sometimes? It seems like sometimes I get pivot ftilts when I go for pivot grabs. I don't really run into this problem with other characters. Is this due to a pikmin not being accessible in my line?

No, if you didn't have a Pikmin it would just be a ghost grab. More than likely a tech error.

 

[Freezie KO]

No, if you didn't have a Pikmin it would just be a ghost grab. More than likely a tech error.

Hmm... okay. Wonder what I'm doing wrong. Because I'm clearly doing a pivot + grab input, as my character pivots and then does a move.

 

[Angbad]

Any thoughts on the sonic match up? I know our fsmash beats his spin dash, but I was still having some trouble.

 

[Myran]

Any thoughts on the sonic match up? I know our fsmash beats his spin dash, but I was still having some trouble.

Shield a lot. Beating his spin dash with your fsmash can be hard since it requires weird timing and all that. Purples are really helpful in walling him out as well. Pivot grabs can be a good way to catch him, but if he notices he's gonna make it a lot harder. I recommend watching the twitch vod I put in the videos thread. It's about 2 hours of me grinding out Sonic/Olimar. I lose some and win some, but I was really figuring out the MU. You might be able to see something there.

 

[Khanjali]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already:

Sonic's neutral B will target Pikmin, so if you're playing against one that likes to use that skill or is attempting to recover from off stage with it, a thrown Pikmin will mess them up.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

So lately I've been interested in picking up a new character, and olimar is the most intriguing to me. He is by far the least explored character, and I think people count him out for no reason. Since most people here have more experience with Olimar here than I do, where does he stack up against the rest of the cast?

 

[Myran]

So lately I've been interested in picking up a new character, and olimar is the most intriguing to me. He is by far the least explored character, and I think people count him out for no reason. Since most people here have more experience with Olimar here than I do, where does he stack up against the rest of the cast?

Pretty well imo, fast characters can be a little annoying. Just takes works to really get your shield timing and all that stuff on point. As well as the characters stuff to learn.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Pretty well imo, fast characters can be a little annoying. Just takes works to really get your shield timing and all that stuff on point. As well as the characters stuff to learn.

Yeah I know how to manage the pikmin and what they do, besides for the yellow ones. I also know the up b aerial cancel. Any other useful techniques I should know?

 

[Myran]

Yeah I know how to manage the pikmin and what they do, besides for the yellow ones. I also know the up b aerial cancel. Any other useful techniques I should know?

Uhh luckily he isn't to tech heavy of a character. He has little intricacies that can take him a long way, and managing the Pikmin well is the big part. I recommend checking out my guide if you're looking for a more concise pool of information. It should be in the Olimar boards.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Uhh luckily he isn't to tech heavy of a character. He has little intricacies that can take him a long way, and managing the Pikmin well is the big part. I recommend checking out my guide if you're looking for a more concise pool of information. It should be in the Olimar boards.

Thanks!

 

[Ridel]

Yeah I know how to manage the pikmin and what they do, besides for the yellow ones. I also know the up b aerial cancel. Any other useful techniques I should know?

Like Myran said, Pikmin management is essential. Also learn the proper spacing for his attacks as a lot have a sweet and sourspot. Gimping is also something that you should learn as well, luckily Olimar has one of the best in the game, due to his long recovery and fast aerials.

 

[StripedNinja]

Yeah I know how to manage the pikmin and what they do, besides for the yellow ones. I also know the up b aerial cancel. Any other useful techniques I should know?

Yellows have more range and a bit of extra hitstun. And they have solid knock back, though reds do more.

 

[Sky Pirate]

I've been playing Smash a bit more lately, and this Olimar feels like what Olimar always should have been.
His jab feels more like his jabs from the games, reds actually seem useful, and he just feels more well-rounded rather than being a character of extremes.
I don't even miss instant return.

 

[Dotcom]

I'm an old school OliMain from Brawl, and have been playing a little Smash 4 lately and I think Olimar seems super fine. Enough to stand in the current meta and get better n sutff.
Fsmash is crazy, Red seems to be the best pikmin for it.
I Dtilted someone like 4 times once, and it seemed to work. But now i'm too scared to try it again. Can anyone else confirm this jank? I also seemed to be able to Dtilt -> Upsmash a bit.
Pivot grabbing seems kind of odd, or rather the timing seems inconsistent.

got some more stuff that escapes me right now.

I got a couple matches to critique if you all would feel so inclined:

http://www.twitch.tv/pksparkxx/v/3603480

I start using Oli around 2:07:40