[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

[Angbad]

Captain is the Anti-Diddy.

Whenever people use a forward-B, throwing a Pikmin at him just kind of neutralizes him. And if Diddy tries to run and grab, just throw a Pikmin in his face and it stops his momentum.

Olimar has nothing that goes through diddy side B kick. And good diddys do not just run at you and grab.

If the kick hits your shield at max range an easy punish is short hop dair. Else you just have to read it and punish accordingly. Pivot F-Smash and grab is great at this if you're at the right distance

 

[Myran]

I told you Peach was a hard af mu lol. I lost to a Diddy I double two stocked last weekend. Would have been top 5 at Final Battle for sure (252 entrants). I choked hard on ClashTournaments stream because I hadn't played in 3-4 hours lol. So sad. But I'm not too bummed. Terribly run tournament to the point where I was so not ready to play my matches. Got punished for being in winners. Took games off of Mr ConCon and 0 in friendlies.

Lost to Fallin in Loser's which was depressing. I'm Hip and Rich Brown did great though! 9th and 17th respectively.

Peach is hard, but as long as you don't try to challenge her moves and have purples ready to disrupt the air it's much easier. I went into that set a bit cocky and didn't give Peach the respect I needed to.

 

[Angbad]

Peach is hard, but as long as you don't try to challenge her moves and have purples ready to disrupt the air it's much easier. I went into that set a bit cocky and didn't give Peach the respect I needed to.

Yeah you really have to respect everything she does just like in Brawl.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I remember back in Brawl when Olimar's grab was amazing. Now it's shorter and misses constantly. I was playing against my friends Fox, and grabbing was super unreliable. Far too many times, the Pikmin would go past Fox or just not do anything at all most likely because they randomly got "scattered" even though they were all right beside me. Perfect opportunities to punish Fox's missed/blocked moves with a shield grab failed because the Pikmin just couldn't manage to grab a Fox that's right in front of them... Another issue is that I find Pikmin get switched around a lot even though I don't whistle. Like, if I try to grab with a blue Pikmin (which have waaaaay less throwing power than in Brawl), I end up grabbing with another color even though blue was clearly in front. I seriously do not know how they managed to screw up the Pikmin so badly in Smash 4. It came to the point where I mostly had to just use Olimar's neutral attacks and tilts to even damage Fox because of how unreliable the Pikmin were.

 

[koken]

I'm totally disagree.
I know it changed what people was used to Olimar in Brawl, but it's all about get used to.
Pikmins may desync, even when they are close to you, sometimes you won't get one and you will hit the air. They tend to do that on the edges and when the camera or the movements are too fast.
Pikmin change from all your aerials, Smashes, Throws, Forward B and whistling.
It's just a point of view, but I encourage you to keep practicing, because it is a change, and we humans aren't comfortable with changes, but it's ok.
Hope this works for you =).

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

I know it's a change, but it's an incredibly baffling change that's really making me question his effectiveness. I do like some changes. I like how he punches with A attacks and tilts. I LOVE his new up B. But the way the Pikmin behave throws everything off for me. I was fine with the 3 Pikmin limit nerf he got, but making the Pikmin scatter so easily and sometimes not respond to what you wanna do just feels like too much. Am I the only one having these problems?

 

[koken]

No, you are not the only one. Several times I had read about the problem has the AI and the scatter problem, but it seems like in 3ds it is worst.
It need an update, but anyway there's nothing we can do about it. You may whistle often to "patch" this issue or whenever you catch that moment of desync, at cost of losing 1 sec or something else.

I'm not intending to fight against you but it's something WE have to manage with .

 

[Myran]

Hey @ Kirby Phelps (PK) , I merged your previous thread with this one to help keep the discussion about Olimar in one place.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Went 100% Olimar at a tournament last night. Banning Lylat from now on. XD

 

[Myran]

Went 100% Olimar at a tournament last night. Banning Lylat from now on. XD

Why don't you like Lylat?

 

[Virum]

Olimar has nothing that goes through diddy side B kick. And good diddys do not just run at you and grab.

Not gonna lie, seeing Myran's charged purple USmash lose to that Side B at Paragon hurt my soul. Like, how can they make his priority so awful that his strongest charged smashes lose so easily. Although Diddy's Side B kick has absurd priority considering it's a mixup option out of a long lasting moving command grab (I don't think I've ever seen it lose to an attack barring a powerful charged projectile, it seems to beat or trade with everything).

 

[Myran]

Not gonna lie, seeing Myran's charged purple USmash lose to that Side B at Paragon hurt my soul. Like, how can they make his priority so awful that his strongest charged smashes lose so easily. Although Diddy's Side B kick has absurd priority considering it's a mixup option out of a long lasting moving command grab (I don't think I've ever seen it lose to an attack barring a powerful charged projectile, it seems to beat or trade with everything).

That would be because Pikmin are counted as items and can clank in the air. (Not 100% sure if that is the correct term so don't quote me, but I believe that is the case.)

Also I cursed Sakurai's family when that happened.

 

[koken]

Do you have some videos about that?

 

[Sky Pirate]

Why don't you like Lylat?

I got stuck under the lip when it tilted and spiked to death early on in a stock.
Almost brought it back, but it was too late. ><

 

[Virum]

I got stuck under the lip when it tilted and spiked to death early on in a stock.
Almost brought it back, but it was too late. ><

I feel Olimar has less trouble with that lip than most characters do since his recovery is so flexible. For characters with more linear Up Bs it means straight up death getting caught under that lip.

 

[Blue Banana]

So, there was some Olimar action in Top 8 at Apex against M2K and ZeRo's Diddys. I'm a little bummed out that no Olimar mains got to the main bracket, but this is at least something.

 

[StripedNinja]

An Olimar in Apex finals ;-; Of course he lost, but still, at least he got a little time in the spotlight. And did you guys see Dabuz's Olimar versus Mew2King's Diddy? Hype. The rise of Olimar is nigh.

 

[Dekrem]

An Olimar in Apex finals ;-; Of course he lost, but still, at least he got a little time in the spotlight. And did you guys see Dabuz's Olimar versus Mew2King's Diddy? Hype. The rise of Olimar is nigh.

It was very cool. It really seemed to come down to slow adaptation in both those matches. Mew2King just didn't know how to adapt quickly enough to Dabuz. ZeRo however, already knew his disadvantages in the matchup and prepared adjustments beforehand, and Dabuz just didn't seem able to adapt in return. His Diddy knew how to take advantage of that top-front hole in Olimar's wall (thus those constant fairs he was throwing out). Olimar used to have that angle covered with the tether in Brawl, but his new up-B...I consider it a hard trade-off sacrificing that part of his wall in exchange for an up-B with great recovery for Smash 4. It was a great change, with a significant sacrifice. That said, I wonder if Dabuz could've adapted by shield-grabbing those fairs.

 

[StripedNinja]

It was very cool. It really seemed to come down to slow adaptation in both those matches. Mew2King just didn't know how to adapt quickly enough to Dabuz. ZeRo however, already knew his disadvantages in the matchup and prepared adjustments beforehand, and Dabuz just didn't seem able to adapt in return. His Diddy knew how to take advantage of that top-front hole in Olimar's wall (thus those constant fairs he was throwing out). Olimar used to have that angle covered with the tether in Brawl, but his new up-B...I consider it a hard trade-off sacrificing that part of his wall in exchange for an up-B with great recovery for Smash 4. It was a great change, with a significant sacrifice. That said, I wonder if Dabuz could've adapted by shield-grabbing those fairs.

Yeah, it seems like Zero was practicing that matchup, which makes sense considering what D1 said about how Zero doesn't like it. Had Dabuz known what to expect it might have been a different story more akin to his matches with Mew2King, but as the matchup develops I hope Dabuz and Oli players alike with find answers to things like that. For now I'm still happy that the match even happened, and look forward to the future of Olimar in Smash 4. It really did seem more like Dabuz losing to Zero and less Olimar losing to Diddy.

 

[Dekrem]

For now I'm still happy that the match even happened, and look forward to the future of Olimar in Smash 4. It really did seem more like Dabuz losing to Zero and less Olimar losing to Diddy.

I absolutely agree. I really hope this leads to more characters in general showing up in future tournaments. I'd love some surprise Wii Fit Trainers, Kirbys, Palutenas...

 

[Blue Banana]

I absolutely agree. I really hope this leads to more characters in general showing up in future tournaments. I'd love some surprise Wii Fit Trainers, Kirbys, Palutenas...

Aerolink uses Palmtreetena along with Diddy and got into Top 16. I'm not sure if Aero actually used her in a match, though.

 

[Angbad]

Nah the olimar vs diddy MU is pretty bad. It's AT BEST even, but I really really don't think so. For the record 3 Olimar mains got top 50 at Apex not counting Dabuz who I'm not sure should be counted as an Olimar

 

[koken]

Nah the olimar vs diddy MU is pretty bad. It's AT BEST even, but I really really don't think so. For the record 3 Olimar mains got top 50 at Apex not counting Dabuz who I'm not sure should be counted as an Olimar

I'm totally agree with that, because Dabuz only use Olimar in Finals right?

I also think that was more like Dabuz losing against Diddy instead of Olimar vs Diddy. Stress me because I wouldn't know what to do in those circumstances if I were Dabuz jajaja, ZeRo plays a maniac Diddy that gives you no time for think and no chance of mistakes.

 

[StripedNinja]

Nah the olimar vs diddy MU is pretty bad. It's AT BEST even, but I really really don't think so. For the record 3 Olimar mains got top 50 at Apex not counting Dabuz who I'm not sure should be counted as an Olimar

I'm curious as to why you think that, not that I'm trying to argue, just curious to hear your full opinion.

 

[Myran]

I'm curious as to why you think that, not that I'm trying to argue, just curious to hear your full opinion.

Dabuz goes Oli vs Diddy because he doesn't like the Rosa MU. As for ZeRo he had been getting practice from Rich Brown prior to Sunday night so he was prepared for Dabuz's Olimar. I feel like there where some things Dabuz could have been doing better as well, but he did amazing overall.

 

[koken]

Hey guys, I have been trying to keep improving my Olimar performance and I want to let you know something, so you can advice me better.
We all know that it's very easily to Dthrow + Fair, but I have been trying to Dthrow + Bair, the problem for me is that I fail very often.
This last change from Fair to Bair, is for building more damage and getting some KO's at 100%+, which sometimes had worked me (surprisingly) pretty well.
Actually I do it a lot when I'm in the edge with your enemy at 130%+ and I'm trying to get back to the platform with a jump, moving back of my enemy, fast falling and Bair. The common players doesn't expect that and you get a free stock without effort.

Anyway, I feel like the entire inputs for achieving this (Dthrow + Bair) are very hard, a lot of times I do no damage because I fail doing it properly.

If we think about, with the best of the option, there is a plus of 2% with R,Y,B,W and a plus of 4% with a Purple.

I don't know if someone does this and gets better results so I'm waiting your comments/thoughts/analysis.

 

[Michi3]

I've been watching some Olimar video play on youtube, and I've noticed for edge guarding most people will try to throw pikimin, or charge a fsmash at the ledge. Why don't more players try to jump off the platform and try to gimp or KO with an aerial, since his come back is really good? Is this because of the match up or is it too risky?

 

[Myran]

I've been watching some Olimar video play on youtube, and I've noticed for edge guarding most people will try to throw pikimin, or charge a fsmash at the ledge. Why don't more players try to jump off the platform and try to gimp or KO with an aerial, since his come back is really good? Is this because of the match up or is it too risky?

You can go offstage, but if they throw out a move it can clank with an aerial on stage. Most of the time it's just safer to attempt to punish them from the ledge. Down Smash is a great tool for this since it can clip recoveries that don't sweet spot the ledge. That being said I do go offstage sometimes to get the kill. It all depends on the player I suppose.

 

[Blue Banana]

It's kind of obsolete at this point, but did anyone test out the Pikmin AI on the 3DS 1.0.5 patch? Going through training for a few minutes, it seems that the AI seems to be as stable as the Wii U AI (i.e. no Pikmin running backwards toward the edge, more reliable followup fairs from dthrow), but I want more confirmation from other people. The desync down smash still works on Battlefield, though.

 

[Angbad]

• http://apex2015smashwiiu.challonge.com/F48
  
• http://apex2015smashwiiu.challonge.com/K51

My apex brackets if anyone is wondering/interested.

Other recent tournaments
http://challonge.com/smash4_11
http://challonge.com/fadsingles_4

Bonus Apex side tourney
http://challonge.com/Fauxpex2015real

 

[YorkTC]

I guess I should post this here too, is that alright?

Hi everyone. I'm new to these boards, but I wanted to show my recent Olimar tech discovery. This tech competitively breaks the game in the custom doubles format, and allows Olimar to instant kill any character in the game (with damage variables between 64 and 999 percent damage.) This is all achieved through the use of Olimar's custom down B Order Tackle. I've posted two videos below. One is a short demonstration with Fox, and the other is an in-depth analysis of every character that can be used for this tech. Hope you guys enjoy it!

http://youtu.be/IMMxmMVO9gA (Demonstration with Fox)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ck9xVH3JKM (In-Depth Analysis)

 

[Blue Banana]

Wow.

...I really don't have anything else to say how ridiculous this is.

 

[YorkTC]

I've never seen any move in smash do 999 percent damage before I found this. They die in seconds!

 

[YorkTC]

I've uploaded a new video. This one shows how broken this is in an actual Custom Doubles Match.
Smash 4 Olimar P3A Tech Custom Doubles Demonstration (Vs. CPU9 Team). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAP3O8yShes

 

[Blue Banana]

I gathered a few thoughts after thinking about it for a bit.
There's no doubt that it can absolutely break doubles and squads with customs on. With Fox's Amplyfying Reflector's multiplying reflected projectiles by 2.1, and with the recalled Pikmin having 2 separate hitboxes (meaning they can hit the reflector twice), Olimar can just run around with essentially OHKO Fairs, Fsmashes, throws, and purple side Bs to instantly threaten the other team. The Pikmin's frailty is completely solved by Hardy Pikmin Pluck, so the only way to stop this strategy is to prevent it from actually happening. In doubles, the other team has a chance given how light Fox and Olimar are, but it's potentially nearly impossible in 3v3s and 4v4s because they have an extra teammate(s) to back them up.

In singles, I think it's more limited in its usefulness. Given that the Pikmin can be killed in a strong hit and that damage incurred isn't too significant barring whites, the opponent can just go for a fast and powerful attack to knock them out rather than try risking reflecting Pikmin Throw. However, a situation where this could be put into play is if the opponent is in close range of a Fsmash while a Pikmin is latched on or is running on the field back to Olimar. The opponent's option to reflect a Fsmash is risky because if Olimar predicts right at whistle at the right time, then the opponent would have to deal with suped-up attacks until he gets KO'd or the Pikmin die themselves. Of course, the opponent has every other choice that every character has in close combat; Fox, Mario, and similar characters put up close range pressure for Olimar anyway (who can get punished by Order Tackle's long endlag), and Palutena would use Super Speed in a customs environment rather than the barrier. It does punish those who get caught unaware of the option for even a moment.

 

[YorkTC]

I gathered a few thoughts after thinking about it for a bit.
There's no doubt that it can absolutely break doubles and squads with customs on. With Fox's Amplyfying Reflector's multiplying reflected projectiles by 2.1, and with the recalled Pikmin having 2 separate hitboxes (meaning they can hit the reflector twice), Olimar can just run around with essentially OHKO Fairs, Fsmashes, throws, and purple side Bs to instantly threaten the other team. The Pikmin's frailty is completely solved by Hardy Pikmin Pluck, so the only way to stop this strategy is to prevent it from actually happening. In doubles, the other team has a chance given how light Fox and Olimar are, but it's potentially nearly impossible in 3v3s and 4v4s because they have an extra teammate(s) to back them up.

In singles, I think it's more limited in its usefulness. Given that the Pikmin can be killed in a strong hit and that damage incurred isn't too significant barring whites, the opponent can just go for a fast and powerful attack to knock them out rather than try risking reflecting Pikmin Throw. However, a situation where this could be put into play is if the opponent is in close range of a Fsmash while a Pikmin is latched on or is running on the field back to Olimar. The opponent's option to reflect a Fsmash is risky because if Olimar predicts right at whistle at the right time, then the opponent would have to deal with suped-up attacks until he gets KO'd or the Pikmin die themselves. Of course, the opponent has every other choice that every character has in close combat; Fox, Mario, and similar characters put up close range pressure for Olimar anyway (who can get punished by Order Tackle's long endlag), and Palutena would use Super Speed in a customs environment rather than the barrier. It does punish those who get caught unaware of the option for even a moment.

Those are my thoughts as well. It requires a opponent to reflect them in singles, so the P3A glitch is entirely avoidable. It does drastically skew a few match ups though, characters with reflectors will probably choose not to use them out of fear of triggering this exploit.

 

[StripedNinja]

Those are my thoughts as well. It requires a opponent to reflect them in singles, so the P3A glitch is entirely avoidable. It does drastically skew a few match ups though, characters with reflectors will probably choose not to use them out of fear of triggering this exploit.

I knew this would happen. No one listened to me, but it's too late now. Olimar's rise to god tier has begun.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Not sure if this is common sense by now, but Olimar's new UpB is great for getting out of multihits and the pikmin that dangle below him seem to allow him to avoid certain hits by extending hitlag just enough to let Oli himself escape.
Best UpB in the game, IMO. X3

 

[Angbad]

Not sure if this is common sense by now, but Olimar's new UpB is great for getting out of multihits and the pikmin that dangle below him seem to allow him to avoid certain hits by extending hitlag just enough to let Oli himself escape.
Best UpB in the game, IMO. X3

Can you provide an example?

 

[Myran]

Can you provide an example?

Pretty much just mash Up-B when you're getting multijabbed or something. Also the Pikmin are considered out of your line when you carry them, and that's why they can be hit.