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[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

Angbad

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Edit: Well I just noticed this got a sticky. If you're new to the thread, it's general competitive discussion.


Hey guys I got the full game when it was released and I was an olimar main in Brawl so I've been spending some time with him. I'd like to hear what others have to say about him.

From what I've played he has been incredibly nerfed. The only good change is oli has a good ftilt now. But for the bad, none of his throws combo very easily or do enough knockback to be seriously considered kill moves. If you're charging an fsmash, get hit, but your pikmin still gets thrown the attack no longer does damage like it would have done in Brawl.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone has had any success with him thus far. Or if anyone wants to test anything
 
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Myran

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I don't have the game, but I've been watching streams constantly these last few days. Unfortunately most all the people who I've seen play him on streams are awful with him. I have noticed the his F-Smash and U-Smash have kill potential, and I think comboing with Nairs might be one of his new approaches. Camping with his Pikmin throw seems much less viable do to his overall slowness (from what I have seen he looks slow), and the fact that he has 3 Pikmin means you can get intercepted while your Pikmin are coming back. I also heard that he still has whistle armor, but I have yet see it actually done so I'm sure if it's true (could you verify?). Overall I think he will become a much more aggressive character and with smart spacing/reads he could have some good potential. He's definitely my first pick of playing when I get the game.

P.S. It's nice to see an Olimar post that actually wants to accomplish some character development, it's been to long.
 

Angbad

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His up smash has a shorter range now. Also the pikmin ai seems a little screwy. At least once a match one or two of my Pikmin will just run away from me while i'm in the air and I'm out of luck. I agree I have been using a lot of nair. fastfall nair>Usmash/utilt still works. His downthrow combos into fsmash/fair/ftilt only <10%. That's pretty much the only guarantees I've found so far. Fsmashing off the side of the stage no longer lets your Pikmin fall off the stage. They stay on the stage even if you're standing right on the ledge and fsmash. His Up-B is worse than the tether would have been in Sm4sh.
 

Myran

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I know U-Smash out of shield is a pretty good option for him. I also saw how his Pikmin don't go off the stage when you F-Smash, but I think with how the current ledge mechanics work you have to go off stage to really edge guard in most cases. I'm sure there will be some more confirmed follow-ups off his moves later on, but his grabs might not be what does it this time around.
 

The_SuperiorTaste

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I think I like him more in this than brawl. Mainly because in Brawl he didn't get grab armor and that really annoyed me when I was about to get a grab. In this game, not a single character gets grab armor, so now its fair game.
 

Virum

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I think I like him more in this than brawl. Mainly because in Brawl he didn't get grab armor and that really annoyed me when I was about to get a grab. In this game, not a single character gets grab armor, so now its fair game.
I personally think the former case is fair game since in Brawl regardless of the lack of armour his grab was still by far the best in the game (and probably the series). It was quick, went the distance of a tether grab (blue Pikmin pivot grab range in particular was absurd) but had no where near the level of end lag and you couldn't even hit the Pikmin away as they came to grab you.
 

Yomi's Biggest Fan

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I don't know, his Pikmin does seem a bit pixelated for comfort (Though graphic limitations may be the case for that).
 
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Boy Jordan

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Olimar definitely got some changes, but I wouldn't necessarily say he's been nerfed. His Ftilt, Uspecial, and Dair are noticeably better from Brawl. His smashes have been slowed but also given excellent knockback, and from what early gameplay footage has shown us, having kill moves to rely on is rather important in closing out a game. Other changes are more subjective whether or not they're improvements, such as a fixed order of Pikmin being plucked and a smaller number of Pikmin to manage.

What I do know is that Olimar mains will have to make good use of customs. Tough Pikmin, Speedy Pikmin, and Crash Whistle customs in particular seem to be a promising combination in competitive play. Which Uspecial is best I still don't know, but it's safe to say that the variants for other specials trump the default loadout. I also suspect that what will differentiate the pros from the amateurs where Olimar is concerned is the proper use of his whistle and Pikmin management.
 

Myran

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Olimar definitely got some changes, but I wouldn't necessarily say he's been nerfed. His Ftilt, Uspecial, and Dair are noticeably better from Brawl. His smashes have been slowed but also given excellent knockback, and from what early gameplay footage has shown us, having kill moves to rely on is rather important in closing out a game. Other changes are more subjective whether or not they're improvements, such as a fixed order of Pikmin being plucked and a smaller number of Pikmin to manage.

What I do know is that Olimar mains will have to make good use of customs. Tough Pikmin, Speedy Pikmin, and Crash Whistle customs in particular seem to be a promising combination in competitive play. Which Uspecial is best I still don't know, but it's safe to say that the variants for other specials trump the default loadout. I also suspect that what will differentiate the pros from the amateurs where Olimar is concerned is the proper use of his whistle and Pikmin management.
I agree with you in regards to the custom moves. I also think that with the set Pikmin order and limit of three Pikmin that Olimar's entire strategy will be different from Brawl. He relied much more off a campy/bait style in Brawl in which he could punish heavily off pivot grabs. His grab seems to be much weaker on all fronts, as I have yet to see any of his throws kill. I can see him becoming more of an upfront fighter approaching with either Nair or Fair, and following with a jab or F-tilt into a smash or grab. With the reduction of damage that Pikmin throw causes now I also think that the custom move that gives the Pikmin hard hitboxes like purple Pikmin will become a pretty standard custom (Assuming they're allowed). Overall I'd have to say that he will become much more aggressive character while retaining some of the Olimar intricacies of Brawl.
 

DtJ Hilt

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Stickying this thread for broad competitive discussion, and gathering as much new information we can about Olimar in one place. Liking what I'm reading in here so far, keep it up! I don't have the Japanese version, but as soon as the English release hits, I plan on figuring out whatever I can about this character!
 

Myran

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So I've heard that Olimar's whistle armor is back, but I haven't seen it used yet. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Ridel

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So I've heard that Olimar's whistle armor is back, but I haven't seen it used yet. Can anyone confirm this?
I've heard some people say it is back and others say it isn't I'm not positive but I'm leaning towards not.
 

DtJ Hilt

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Yeah, the only thing I heard about it being back was that the super armor frames on it are much shorter. Haven't heard anything so far as a confirmation, though.
 

Colin Steele

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I was watching a stream yesterday and the guy seemed to rock him like an old-school Brawl player. (Ha old-school Brawl)
Ultimately I loved him in Brawl, but I felt he was probably a little imba, but now I think he has been reworked to keep the potential he had, but chill him out so he isn't as 'broken.'

Overall, I think he's probably just fine.
 

CHAINSAWmuzik

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My only problem with the new olimar is how his up B works, im not used to throwing away my pikmin to recover, im so used to the pikmin chain smh... and I hate having just 3 I miss my Spartan army of 6, but to be honest I only played a round with him at smash fest so when the American release comes out I plan I working out all his kinks... I mained him in brawl so I'm here with you guys
 
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BestTeaMaker

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I haven't played the game yet as Olimar, but from my initial impressions, it seems like design around Olimar in Smash 4 emphasizes on the control of the Pikmin. Because the Pikmin count is smaller and Pluck occurs in a set order, it's actually more feasible to use the right Pikmin at the right time.

For example, in early %, I want to rack up as much damage and hits as possible, meaning that I would want to focus on using Red and Yellow Pikmin. As the % gets higher and higher, I would then be focused on getting Purple, White, and Blue out to knock the opponent as far and hard as possible.

In a way, it's analogous to Shulk's Monado Artes, where you want to use the right ability at certain times to achieve the maximal effect.
 

Myran

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I haven't played the game yet as Olimar, but from my initial impressions, it seems like design around Olimar in Smash 4 emphasizes on the control of the Pikmin. Because the Pikmin count is smaller and Pluck occurs in a set order, it's actually more feasible to use the right Pikmin at the right time.

For example, in early %, I want to rack up as much damage and hits as possible, meaning that I would want to focus on using Red and Yellow Pikmin. As the % gets higher and higher, I would then be focused on getting Purple, White, and Blue out to knock the opponent as far and hard as possible.

In a way, it's analogous to Shulk's Monado Artes, where you want to use the right ability at certain times to achieve the maximal effect.
I think you mixed up whites and reds. In Brawl the white Pikmin did the most damage on Pikmin throw, and have low knockback on smashes, aerials, and grabs. Reds on the other hand had the 2nd highest knock back for smash attacks, but have lower Pikmin throw damage and grab knock back (Than blues/purples).
 
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PlasmWraith

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With the added focus on Pikmin control, I really wish there was something on screen to say which Pikmin will be used in the next attack, as it is it seems like a lot of Olimar players will be throwing Pikmin all over the place trying to figure out which one they will use next.
 

Myran

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With the added focus on Pikmin control, I really wish there was something on screen to say which Pikmin will be used in the next attack, as it is it seems like a lot of Olimar players will be throwing Pikmin all over the place trying to figure out which one they will use next.
I never had that problem in Brawl, but I did put a lot of work into learning how to use Olimar efficiently. It shouldn't affect to many players. Brawl had six so the change to three should make it easier to keep up with them.
 

Colin Steele

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It's really a good thing there isn't. If there were, your opponent would easily be able to keep track of what you may be planning, so if you can learn to keep track of them yourself, you have a bit of an edge.
 

DtJ Hilt

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Yeah, a lot of players would suggest focusing on Olimar's lineup when playing against him. But most didn't, because it was so different from what they were use to when playing a match. For Olimar mains, you're always watching your line.

In Olimar dittos I would have to make sure that I'm not too predictable with what I use a specific colored Pikmin for (especially purple), because I know that my opponent is watching my line just as much as I am, beacause it's what he's use to. I can't imagine having to do that against every player, good god.

Olimar's definitely been changed, call it a nerf if you want. But the way I've seen it, Olimar has always been a matter of working against your disadvantages by powering through with whatever strength you can find. In brawl his major diffulties were his tether recover and difficulties in close combat. But high and top level Olimars learned how to use their advantages to shield themselves from their weaknesses.

Recovery was a difficult hurdle to overcome. Whistle, Purple Toss, Up Air, learning different tricks to something as simple as jumping, there were ways that Olimar mains overcame the reason he was originally seen as 18th on the tier list. His close range options were battled by the mindset of how to effectively space and protect your fragile self. When to pivot grab. How to force an approach and how to force out their approach. Up Smash Out of Shield. When to grab and when to fsmash.

But this is a different game.

We can't treat Olimar as a character similar to how he was. Players that may not have been able to play Olimar due to his campy nature and difficult to use approach options, may find the character more comfortable now. Since he was such a good character in Brawl, most of the focus is going to be what's bad about him now. But we need to look at what's good in his changes. What moves are better now? What are clever ways to either overcome or take advantage of the negative changes we've seen?

I'm excited to see how Olimar's metagame develops.
 

Ridel

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Yeah, a lot of players would suggest focusing on Olimar's lineup when playing against him. But most didn't, because it was so different from what they were use to when playing a match. For Olimar mains, you're always watching your line.

In Olimar dittos I would have to make sure that I'm not too predictable with what I use a specific colored Pikmin for (especially purple), because I know that my opponent is watching my line just as much as I am, beacause it's what he's use to. I can't imagine having to do that against every player, good god.

Olimar's definitely been changed, call it a nerf if you want. But the way I've seen it, Olimar has always been a matter of working against your disadvantages by powering through with whatever strength you can find. In brawl his major diffulties were his tether recover and difficulties in close combat. But high and top level Olimars learned how to use their advantages to shield themselves from their weaknesses.

Recovery was a difficult hurdle to overcome. Whistle, Purple Toss, Up Air, learning different tricks to something as simple as jumping, there were ways that Olimar mains overcame the reason he was originally seen as 18th on the tier list. His close range options were battled by the mindset of how to effectively space and protect your fragile self. When to pivot grab. How to force an approach and how to force out their approach. Up Smash Out of Shield. When to grab and when to fsmash.

But this is a different game.

We can't treat Olimar as a character similar to how he was. Players that may not have been able to play Olimar due to his campy nature and difficult to use approach options, may find the character more comfortable now. Since he was such a good character in Brawl, most of the focus is going to be what's bad about him now. But we need to look at what's good in his changes. What moves are better now? What are clever ways to either overcome or take advantage of the negative changes we've seen?

I'm excited to see how Olimar's metagame develops.
His recovery seems better but it does force you to sacrifice your Pikmin for it so we will have to see how that develops. Some of his attacks have also been sped up bust at a cost of some damage so once again we have to wait. The only clear cut buffs I see is the fixed order, the Pikmin fly farther when tossed, and the indicators.

Take a look at the wiki page he seems to be quite an intresting bag of marbles:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Olimar_(SSB4)
 
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StripedNinja

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It's really a good thing there isn't. If there were, your opponent would easily be able to keep track of what you may be planning, so if you can learn to keep track of them yourself, you have a bit of an edge.
Actually there is a little indicator above the Pikmin's head that Olimar is going to use next...
 

StripedNinja

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I feel like Olimar is going to be less campy and more going-in, which is fine. His Up B is kind of weird because you can attack out of it but if you don't until it finishes it still puts you into freefall. Also apparently the more you use it the less effective it is. I guess the Winged Pikmin need time to regain thier strength. He seems like he's coming with a few new quirks to get use to.
 

Myran

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After watching the SoCal regional today I got really bummed. I thought Rich Brown would try Olimar, but instead went Pacman. It seems so odd that all the top level Olimars I've seen have just quit playing him.

I'm not sure why though, he doesn't look that much worse from his Brawl counterpart.
 
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PlasmWraith

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After watching the SoCal regional today I got really bummed. I thought Rich Brown would try Olimar, but instead went Pacman. It seems so odd that all the top level Olimars I've seen have just quit playing him.

I'm not sure why though, he doesn't look that much worse from his Brawl counterpart.
From what I've played of him, which wasn't very much, he can't KO or get someone's damage percentage up like he used to. Maybe there's something I haven't tried out but from the fact that a bunch of characters got buffed and he got massively nerfed, he can't catch up.
 

Myran

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From what I've played of him, which wasn't very much, he can't KO or get someone's damage percentage up like he used to. Maybe there's something I haven't tried out but from the fact that a bunch of characters got buffed and he got massively nerfed, he can't catch up.
I noticed his up-smash is still a kill move. Also when I played him at Best Buy during E3 it didn't seem to bad, but I was in a free for all and only got two two-minute matches.
 
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Rakurai

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His blue pikmin throws aren't KO moves anymore, which is really disappointing.

They just cause somewhat higher damage, and that's it.
 

Myran

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His blue pikmin throws aren't KO moves anymore, which is really disappointing.

They just cause somewhat higher damage, and that's it.
Yeah, I've seen that as well. I did see one of his throws kill though it was around like 130 I think, but it was awhile ago so I don't remember which. Pretty sure it was with a blue Pikmin though.
 

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Well, here's one positive for the thread. He has armor on his whistle, confirmed. It does seem to be a little harder to time, but it could just be that the player I wad watching wasn't use to the timing, as it's more towards the end of the move instead of at the start up like before.
 

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Just watched Zero's Olimar analysis. It looks like they got rid of that awful lag on his up Smash in the demo, and his forward Smash seems to have decent kill potential. Also I saw a blue throw kill. He wasn't doing super amazing, but Zero doesn't seem to have much Olimar experience at all, so overall I was happy with what I saw. I will say his Up Smash is definitely shorter, but if anything it looks faster.
 

Boomuki

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I was an Olimar main in Brawl, and I have the game since Wednesday, so I'm gonna post my thoughts:
First of all, Pikmin attributes are the same, but Pikmin toss does less damage, heck the white toss only does 3 damage per hit after it sticks to the opponent! In general, really got nerfed by a bit because of his new upsmash and amount of Pikmin. Only having 3 Pikmin because of 3ds limitations is a pain, so I thought they would make the Pikmin have more hp or make the AI better, but no. For me it seems they have the some amount of hp as in Brawl, and the AI, like others pointed out is worse. The Pikmin must be in your line, otherwise you can't use them, which really is a pain with 3 Pikmin. This also makes the Pikmin toss less viable. But in general I think the toss is one of the tools you have to rely on in matches, because in close combat Olimar got the biggest nerfs.
Grabs got a really big nerf. The range is smaller, it's like Smash 4's pivot grab range is like Brawl's normal grab range. And don't even try to kill with grabs when your opponent is under 200%, it isn't even possible with blue Pikmin. You can only use grabs now to set up some combos, like d-throw to u-air, nothing special or to fancy.
Jab is a bit slower, and one of his best moves, the usmash, got the biggest nerf. Range seems to be the same or a little worse and it has some startup frames and a big cooldown after you used it. The usmash is punishable and slow, so you can't shield pressure with 2 usmashes in a row. At least the knockback is still the same, or maybe even a bit better. I wasnt able to use superarmour whistle, but people here said they saw it, so it seems it has just a few armor frames, which is really sad, because it will be so easy to keep him in the air now.
His recovery is like villagers, good range but predictable. You don't have to kill your Pikmin like others said, I had the experience that you can recover from most positions with 2 Pikmin, maybe with 1 when you are really far away. Maybe you still want to toss Pikmin, for covering options and to land save (flying over your opponent won't be possible with 2 or 3 Pikmin by your side). It is weird, because sometimes I recover but the winged Pikmin didn't carry me with all my Pikmin, sometimes 1 or 2 fell off. Olimar will have problems with recovering from meteors, because his recovery is better for horizontal movement, so maybe you have to kill 2 or 3 Pikmin in this case, if you still have time for that. For mixing up your recovery, Sakurai gave us the option to act out of the up-b with any of Olimars aerials, which will help A LOT. Keep in mind that you can't airdodge out of the up-b and that you will be in freefall state after acting out of it.
Olimars fair seems to be same as Brawl, his bair seems to have a bit more knockback and his dair is also the same as Brawl(?) I'm not sure on his dair, the meteor wasn't easy to get, time will tell if it's easier or harder to land, or if it's really the same. I'm no fan of the new upair, it is a single hit with less range than his Brawl upair. You can't be in front of or inside your opponent to use it, you have to be under him to hit. Kill power is the same as Brawl's. Upair, and dair do have way more landing lag, bair and fair are as Brawl.
Now the good things. His nair is a useful tool, it has nearly zero startup and landing lag like Brawl, and most combos with it still do work. Dash attack, and up-tilt will be used more than in Brawl because you have to rely more on moves that don't use Pikmin, maybe f-tilt can be used like Wario's in Brawl to cover opponent's ledge options? I think d-tilt is too laggy to be useful. His general movement is somewhat better, because of Smash4 physics Olimar feels a bit speedier, dash, fast fall and rolls are all a bit faster. We'll see if dashing away will still be the better option for Olimar or if rolls will establish in his meta.
I think his best tool will be the f-smash, which got buffed. It has even more range than in Brawl (purple fsmash has same same range than Brawl purple dsmash) and it can still kill. I think pivot fsmash is a really good and surprising move. Dsmash feels like Brawl's with a little more knockback I think?
Overall I think Olimar won't be as much of a threat as he was in Brawl, because of the 3 Pikmin limit, his upsmash nerf and worse whistle, people now also have general knowledge about Olimar and his playstyle, he isn't a surprise character as he was in Brawl for most, but upper mid tier to high tier should still be possible. BTW I think the small 3ds screen helps Olimar, even in Brawl people told me playing against him was kinda hard because they could not see what he did, because he was so small and many animations look the same for uneducated eyes. Maybe people will run into charged pivot usmash when playing on the 3ds :)

(Please keep in mind that these are just first impressions, so take this with a grain of salt)

edit: Forgot to mention that you can still cancel the pluck animation into any move that uses a Pikmin, so even if you don't have any Pikmin and your opponent thinks you are helpless and dashes to you, b into fsmash or dsmash is still a thing :)
 
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Myran

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I gotta say this. Olimar is not even close to as good as he was in Brawl. They pretty much kept him the same mechanically just nerfed his range/killpower/speed. I can't even get started on how slow he is, and everyone of his smashes has ridiculous cooldown time. Also I'm surprised that anyone who was working on the game wasn't able to fix random Pikmin desyncs.

On a good note being able to pivot Pikmin toss with almost no lag is amazing.
 
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Okay, heres's what I think. His speed and killpower are pretty much the same. I kmow everyones saying he's got a lot less kill power but I think thats just due to the farther blast zones that all characters have to deal with. Blue throws CAN kill, but they arent really a reliable kill method. I was wrong about up smash, it does still have lag. But its not that rediculiuos, I think everyones just use to how quick it was in Brawl. Its just not as good of a cover move any more and more of a careful-read kill move, which is okay. Also even though Olimar cant have as much Pikmin, they way they are now they are more easily accesible for moves. Like they can be a bit further away from you while you are still able to use them. Pikmin throw does a lot less damage, but it was a little rediculous in brawl. Still a solid projectile good for throwing off your opponent, especially with whites cause they still do a pretty good amount. Down Smash and Up Smash seem pretty much the same. Grab has been nerfed in both speed and range slightly, but it still has good range and still comes out fast enough for its range. Downthrow is looking like the most useful, as its a pretty good setup move. Whisle superarmor is definitley harder to use, but not impossible. Its still gotten me out of a few sticky situations. I am liking his up special a lot. In my opinion recovery was the absolute biggest pain of being a Brawl Olimar main, and thats no longer an issue. Being able to attack out of it is nice, but you still have to be careful because after you attack you still go into freefall. Also you cant just spam your up b to maneuver around the stage because the winged pikmin tire out. His up b stales, I guess. But its still very solid as a recovery with 2 or less Pikmin. Not aweful with 3 even. Just becareful because its kind of predictable. Having all the Pikmin come out in order is really nice, makes me feel a lot more in control of the outcome of the game. Also ive decided I like his up air being one hit, I feel like it makes it easier to juggle. His forward tilt feels pretty solid, I think it can even kill. Overall Olimar feels less campy and a little more offensive. He got nerfed for sure, he's still a solid choice if you know what you're doing with him. And Im still having a lot of fun with him so far.
 

mYzeALot

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 4, 2011
Messages
213
Are we sure there is super armor on the whistle? The wiki pages says there is none, but I guess it could be wrong.
 

Myran

Moderator
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NNID
Myranice
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I'll get around to writing my actual thoughts on how he needs to be played and all that at some point. For now I'll say this. If you want to win bait your opponent and punish. Rinse and repeat. You should never be approaching.
 
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