[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

[JuanP_91]

Well, I've been picking up Olimar in SSB4, and its a shame he only has 3 Pikmin now. Still, my impressions with him are that, in the right hands, he's the most versatile character in terms of attacking.
5 kinds of Pikmin = 5 ways to attack.
I believe the reason why Sakurai said management is more important is exactly that. Say, you have Blue, Yellow, and Purple in the respective order. The best way to attack would be Dthrow>Fair>Side B.
Having in count which Pikmin comes after the current one can lead to some great combos (Pikmin plucked first stand first in the line). In case you don't like your current squad, thats what Pikmin Order and the ledge are for.

The usages I find for each Pikmin are the following:
Red: Damage, Combo finishers, Smash Attacks
Yellow: Aerials, Minor spacing
Blue: Grabs, or anything in particular
White: Longer range grabs and Smashes, Side B damage
Purple: Gimping opponents off the ledge, combo finishers, stopping momentum.

All aside from Purple can be used normally for Pikmin Throw pressure.

These are my impressions about Olimar.

 

[koken]

Hey guys, I found a video that would help to (maybe) re think your strategy of how to play with Olimar.
It is a move that personally I don't use 'cause it's overriden(?) by a lot of others aerials against us, but it comes handy when you succeed.

Seems like Olimar has the 2nd most farthest knockback on Usmash with a Purple.
Check it at 1m20s or see the entire video here.

 

[StripedNinja]

Hey so I have a question for you guys. What characters would you say best cover Olimar's weaknesses? Like, if I were to pick up a sub main, who would you say would be good for and Oli main?

 

[koken]

Hey so I have a question for you guys. What characters would you say best cover Olimar's weaknesses? Like, if I were to pick up a sub main, who would you say would be good for and Oli main?

Call me crazy but I use Marth as a secondary ... I don't think it's the best option but in somehow works for me.

I noticed something strange last night and I don't have the time to test it.
I Played against a Marth, Ness and Diddy, every time I did a Dair with a Yellow it was a spike.
It is always a spike on Yellow Dair?

 

[Myran]

Call me crazy but I use Marth as a secondary ... I don't think it's the best option but in somehow works for me.

I noticed something strange last night and I don't have the time to test it.
I Played against a Marth, Ness and Diddy, every time I did a Dair with a Yellow it was a spike.
It is always a spike on Yellow Dair?

It has to be the sweetspot, just managed to hit it every time.

 

[StripedNinja]

Call me crazy but I use Marth as a secondary ... I don't think it's the best option but in somehow works for me.

I noticed something strange last night and I don't have the time to test it.
I Played against a Marth, Ness and Diddy, every time I did a Dair with a Yellow it was a spike.
It is always a spike on Yellow Dair?

I think it's easier to sweet spot with yellow due to the increased range.
Lately I've been using Greninja a lot.

 

[TR33]

Really? Well, that's pretty bad for us, I suppose. That'll make it even more important that we figure it out. Do you, since you play both characters, have any ideas for the Olimar end of this matchup aside from what StripedNinja and I already said?

In addition to what ninja and craft have already said I'd say take advantage of your low height, villager can fair/bair camp him but only when fast falling the shots which produces considerable recovery frames. Getting into a range of about 75% of villager's fair/bair range is imo ideal, and perfect shield punishing his attempts at camping is going to be critical. Hopping over or rolling past lloid is ideal because the villager has to wait until it despawns or explodes to put out another one, however keep in mind that in doing so you also put yourself at a height where you can now be hit with slingshot easily. My from the olimar's point of view I'd try my best to keep this range and pressure with fsmashes and pivot grabs, if the villager attempts to come in. Killing probably wont be straight forward in this m/u for either chracter as well, don't push too hard and be patient enough to allow the kill to present itself. As a disclaimer this is how I see the m/u and how, as an oli secondary, I would approach it. Hope it helps.

 

[Greenpikmin]

Hey guys, I'm pretty sure this was not in the game before the 1.0.6 patch, but I found that Olimar's first jab can be used to jab lock/jab reset. I've tested and it works on the entire cast at any percent, I tested everyone with 100-200%(lower %s work as well) and it worked consistently. The spacing on it is a bit strict, you have to be really close to them when you go for the jab, or else it won't lock them into a standard get up (They will be able to act immediately after you hit them with the jab). After hitting them with the jab, I would recommend following up with a charged f smash, or up smash preferably with a purple or red.
Not sure how helpful this will be competitively, considering everyone techs anytime they are landing on the stage, but it might still be useful to know, for the rare instance they miss their tech.

 

[Freezie KO]

Anyone have general tips for combating characters that like to jump and short hop around a lot, usually using really quick attacks as their approach. Especially if they're playing rushdown. I pretty much resort to pivot smashes and pivot grabs, but I was wondering if there are other good strats.

I was playing against a Captain Falcon that I bodied the first stock, but then he started spending most of the match in the air, and I had a really hard time getting any offense against him. If I went airborne, I felt like he could land and punish (usually a running grab) as I floated around. Then I faced a Greninja who mostly hopped around and used auto-cancelled nairs to cross me up in shield, and I felt I had a similar problem while my opponent was airborne. When they were battling on the ground, I felt comfortable and won the match.

 

[Myran]

Anyone have general tips for combating characters that like to jump and short hop around a lot, usually using really quick attacks as their approach. Especially if they're playing rushdown. I pretty much resort to pivot smashes and pivot grabs, but I was wondering if there are other good strats.

I was playing against a Captain Falcon that I bodied the first stock, but then he started spending most of the match in the air, and I had a really hard time getting any offense against him. If I went airborne, I felt like he could land and punish (usually a running grab) as I floated around. Then I faced a Greninja who mostly hopped around and used auto-cancelled nairs to cross me up in shield, and I felt I had a similar problem while my opponent was airborne. When they were battling on the ground, I felt comfortable and won the match.

Powershield their aerials and punish with either dsmash or jab.

 

[Freezie KO]

Powershield their aerials and punish with either dsmash or jab.

Yeah, I always worry about relying on powershield, but I need to do it more. Dsmash is a savior though for crossups. You're right.

 

[koken]

If you "are feeling it" and you are confident enough, you can:

• short hop -> dodge -> F/B Air.
• short hop -> dodge -> Nair.
• Roll Forward/Backward -> short hop -> Fair.
• Roll Forward/Backward -> Grab.

 

[Myran]

Kinda off topic, but I can't describe how funny it is when I catch someone with a tomahawk dsmash.

 

[Freezie KO]

If you "are feeling it" and you are confident enough, you can:

• short hop -> dodge -> F/B Air.
• short hop -> dodge -> Nair.
• Roll Forward/Backward -> short hop -> Fair.
• Roll Forward/Backward -> Grab.

I like the short hop dodge options. I feel like whenever I try to roll or contest with aerials, I get punished.

 

[Myran]

I like the short hop dodge options. I feel like whenever I try to roll or contest with aerials, I get punished.

It's because Pikmin clank even in the air. This makes them lose trades all the time.

 

[koken]

I like the short hop dodge options. I feel like whenever I try to roll or contest with aerials, I get punished.

It's because Pikmin clank even in the air. This makes them lose trades all the time.

You will never want to risk that with anyone in the air. It's a win-win for the other one.
Even so I have seen that even a Full Charged Smash can be canceled by almost any Air Attack .. it's really awful ... Just don't get it .. Sakurai pls D: ...

 

[Freezie KO]

Sakurai pls D: ...

I say this every time I lose a stock due to a reflector.

 

[Kon]

I have a weird question but what do you think of Olimar's out of shield options? Could they be interesting at some point? Maybe the nair and the upsmash? Especially as a fastfall nair is great to get a smash followup. I haven't tried his OoS options yet, so maybe some of you have already tested a bit with it.

 

[InfamousLuffy]

I have a weird question but what do you think of Olimar's out of shield options? Could they be interesting at some point? Maybe the nair and the upsmash? Especially as a fastfall nair is great to get a smash followup. I haven't tried his OoS options yet, so maybe some of you have already tested a bit with it.

You can F-air OoS, it seems like it's a spacing tool.

 

[Angbad]

I have a weird question but what do you think of Olimar's out of shield options? Could they be interesting at some point? Maybe the nair and the upsmash? Especially as a fastfall nair is great to get a smash followup. I haven't tried his OoS options yet, so maybe some of you have already tested a bit with it.

Hey you can dair out of shield lol. watch my match against zero and I do it to him during the 2nd transition of castle siege.
http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames/c/6648696

 

[Kon]

Thx for your replies. I haven't even thought of these aerials to use out of shield. So the out of shield game of Olimar should definitely be something to consider.

Also as far as for what I tested, it seems you can't fastfall an out of shield aerial or am I doing something wrong? Because for the Nair out of shield, it's not that great as an option if you don't get a follow-up out of it. It's only interesting if you have no pikmins left and want your ennemy to get off you. Then an out of shield nair seems to be an option. But as you mentionned, fair and dair may be better choices in general(as long as you have pikmin with you).

 

[koken]

Hey guys, I recently discovered something to be happy for about Olimar. Not very interesting though, but is something to be aware of.

Mr.G&W Side B (Hammer of Justice I believe it's called) is disabled/nulled by a Bair with a Yellow pikmin, that's right. No damage taken or whatever.

I have a video to demonstrate it but I have not been able to record it from my cellphone. Lack of time is a constant issue on my life -_-.

If someone has a recorder, I can send you the replay so you can upload it to youtube and we can spread the word. Otherwise, I will upload it as soon as I can :3.

 

[Freezie KO]

Hey guys, I recently discovered something to be happy for about Olimar. Not very interesting though, but is something to be aware of.

Mr.G&W Side B (Hammer of Justice I believe it's called) is disabled/nulled by a Bair with a Yellow pikmin, that's right. No damage taken or whatever.

I have a video to demonstrate it but I have not been able to record it from my cellphone. Lack of time is a constant issue on my life -_-.

If someone has a recorder, I can send you the replay so you can upload it to youtube and we can spread the word. Otherwise, I will upload it as soon as I can :3.

What do you mean by disabled/nulled? If you both hit at the same time, but G&W is hit with a yellow, then the Hammer deals know damage?

Anyway, in a fun tangential note, Logic played GimR in an Alph vs Game & Watch match at Xanadu, and it really showed how much the match up is in Olimar's favor. GimR is THE Game and Watch, and he really had no approach options at all.

 

[koken]

What do you mean by disabled/nulled? If you both hit at the same time, but G&W is hit with a yellow, then the Hammer deals know damage?

Anyway, in a fun tangential note, Logic played GimR in an Alph vs Game & Watch match at Xanadu, and it really showed how much the match up is in Olimar's favor. GimR is THE Game and Watch, and he really had no approach options at all.

Yes, that's right. Even a N° 9 Hammer will deal no damage, knockback or whatever against a Bair with a Yellow.

As soon as possible I will upload the video, but if you want to see it lets be friend and I will send to you. Another way is to upload the replay to the Nintendo network and you can search through my nick.

Can you post the link to that?

 

[Freezie KO]

Yes, that's right. Even a N° 9 Hammer will deal no damage, knockback or whatever against a Bair with a Yellow.

As soon as possible I will upload the video, but if you want to see it lets be friend and I will send to you. Another way is to upload the replay to the Nintendo network and you can search through my nick.

Can you post the link to that?

Unfortunately, I have no way to upload videos from my Wii U. But I'll definitely check it out when you get it posted. Sounds interesting.

 

[koken]

Here is the video that I talked about Mr. G&W.

 

[Myran]

I figure I'll post a little breakdown of why I think Pikmin desyncs does actually more good than bad.

When a Pikmin is desynced it's hurtbox is active. That means a few things can happen. One your opponent can hit a Pikmin keeping them in hitlag longer making you able to punish. Plus when they hit a Pikmin it makes there move not clank with your corresponding smashes. A couple examples being Sonic's Spindash which normally clanks with our fsmash when he is grounded. Also Yoshi's Nair, so if he nairs a desynced Pikmin on the ground his nair is vulnerable to our smashes. Lastly it allows our Smashes to hit in places where Pikmin previously were at. So if a Pikmin got deysnced, and the opponent hits it with a move at the right time (which is a pretty small window) it can have a dsmash for example have one Pikmin dsmash from where you were before you initiated a dash away. It can also happen vertically from a fall.

 

[Blue Banana]

Is there a reliable way to desync a Pikmin? The only reliable type of desyncing I know is the platform desync on 3DS Battlefield.

 

[Myran]

Is there a reliable way to desync a Pikmin? The only reliable type of desyncing I know is the platform desync on 3DS Battlefield.

You can get it by certain movement and what not.

 

[Myran]

Here's a video of me showing the Pikmin desync used for smashes away from your position.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=___-u4kNJ-E
0:49 for the first example
1:04 for the second

 

[koken]

That was absolute planned or just lucky? Seems awkward to me, maybe I can't handle this or get used to.

 

[Myran]

That was absolute planned or just lucky? Seems awkward to me, maybe I can't handle this or get used to.

It's not like I'm putting the Pikmin there on purpose. It's more like when the opportunities show up I can recognize them, and capitalize.

Actually there are some times where I have a Pikmin desynced, and trick the opponent into attacking there.

 

[koken]

It's not like I'm putting the Pikmin there on purpose. It's more like when the opportunities show up I can recognize them, and capitalize.

Oh, now I get it.
Do you need very fast reaction for this to succeed? I never had did this before and I'm trying but seems like I can't recognize the situation correctly, because I don't succeed.

 

[Myran]

Oh, now I get it.
Do you need very fast reaction for this to succeed? I never had did this before and I'm trying but seems like I can't recognize the situation correctly, because I don't succeed.

Uhh I suppose fast reactions would be important, because a lot of the times it happens in a short span of time.

 

[koken]

Uhh I suppose fast reactions would be important, because a lot of the times it happens in a short span of time.

Thank you for this.

Last night I finally succeeded at doing it but it was purely (I have to admit) a bunch of good luck, also it made me win and pissed off my opponent XD.
Would be awesome if I can master this, even though I'm still struggling on recognize the exact moment to do it.

In the last time, the most common things I have heard when people play with me are:

• I hate Olimar.
• So annoying.
• Stop being a $#&%$" spammer you #$%$".
• The only thing you do is throwing your pikmin.
• Don't you know how to play with a real character?
• You should play with another character.

Don't know really what to say, because I really suck with other characters XD. It also make me feel sad because they implicitly say I'm not good because I use Olimar .

Every time this happens I play 3 o 4 times with others characters and I got wrecked, 2 stock, 2 minutes or something like that.
It seems to work because they don't say mean things again in a while.

 

[manueluno]

Ha! I play Olimar to annoy and shame the opponent. Same thing with KD3.

If I was any good with Peach, I would use her as well. Oh! Did I win?

 

[Myran]

Who cares if people say that stuff. My friends complain too, but they can get over it.

 

[StripedNinja]

Olimar is not overpowered and mastering him is definitely not easy. People mistake continuous safe moves to put on pressure as spam and don't recognize the effort that goes into learning all his quirks. Whenever anyone gives me crap and say I play an easy character I just tell them to try it and see how it goes. I have never been beaten by one of these people. Just stick with it and be the best you can, good players will recognize your efforts.

 

[Blue Banana]

I went to the final Sm4sh weekly at my university. This is the top 6:
1st - SoL l Gluten - ZSS
2nd - SoL l SonicMega - Megaman, Ness
3rd - SS l Void - Ness, Alph, Sheik, Diddy
4th - SoL l Taternator - Bowser Jr.
5th - Blue Banana - Olimar
5th - Edrees - Peach

I have a few comments on what went on in my matches.
Round 1 - (W 2-1)
My first actual tournament match against Star Woman and Star Baby. Kept getting popped in the air by Dash Attack and juggled by Uair and Usmash, but I kept up by knocking away Luma when the opportunity arises and putting pressure on the ground and in advantage state. Lost first game on Smashville, won 2nd on Castle Siege, then clutched a 3rd win on Town & City. Fairly close games, in my opinion.

Also got a yellow Dair spike on Town & City, which is always okay.

Round 2 - (W 2-0)
I had previous experiences with this player in previous weeklies, so I was a bit more prepared to deal with the methods that Ludwig typically uses in this fight (Mechakoopa, side B mixups, up B hammer). I played more offensively than passively when he was setting down Mechakoopas with Fairs and max range Fsmashes, and that helped me keep up with Ludwig in terms of pressure and damage. Both wins on Smashville, 2nd fight was more decisive than the 1st.

Round 3 - (W 2-1, this was not Edrees; I played against a different Peach player)
I had a lot of experience with the Peach MU in previous weeklies, so I was used to what Peach is capable of doing in the fight (aerial combos, dash attack, turnip luck). The Peach player was not as experienced as the one I played frequently but still a formidable opponent; he won the 1st game pretty decisively. I played more aggressively in this MU than I did in previous weeklies. Purple Pikmin Throw was a huge benefit in this fight, giving me space to breathe and to reset situations where Peach was lying on the ground. That helped me win the 2nd game on Smashville (even after losing a stock to a Bob-omb pluck) and the 3rd game on Town & City (where I paid more attention where Peach plucked a Bob-omb again). I say that this is a good accomplishment considering I had trouble with this MU in general.

Winners' Semis - (L 1-2)
Another first tournament match against a character I have little experience against, and this player is one of the best Blue Robot mains in SoCal, probably even the best. The first game on Battlefield started out like a waiting game for me; I waited for him to approach then react to what he does. I think where I made mistakes that cost me the match is that I tried to play aggressively by capitalizing on Fsmashes through Leaf Shield. I was too slow to catch him on many attempts and just eat 10-15% damage from Leaf Shield+Throw. He also threw out a lot of Usmashes that catch me trying to run past him. Megaman's edgeguarding is also dangerous; I had trouble getting back to the stage where he can catch me with Uair, Bair, or Dair, covering a lot of options. Clutched out the 1st win on BF, then lost decisively on BF again and Castle Siege.

Too bad I didn't win this one, or I could have been guaranteed at least 3rd in winners' finals.

Losers' Quarters - rematch (L 0-2)
It's a rematch, but now the Ludwig player was much more prepared of what I can do and I played much worse than the first bout. I didn't do a lot of the things that I did that helped me win the winners' round, and he grabbed the momentum way faster than I did. Not too much to say here, 1st loss on Smashville and 2nd loss on Delfino.

Overall, I'm pretty satisfied on how I did for this final weekly. I was aiming to do as well as I did in my first weekly, where I got 3rd out of 10-something people. Getting 5th out of 22 (twice the usual amount) is pretty alright.

Also, I got my first experience against Shiek in friendlies. It felt different than any other MU; "I can't do my usual tricks against her" is all I'll have to say.

 

[Kamui Nohr]

Hey so I have a question for you guys. What characters would you say best cover Olimar's weaknesses? Like, if I were to pick up a sub main, who would you say would be good for and Oli main?

Just about any heavyweight. I've found Ike and Ganondorf to be a little fun to play as when I'm taking a break from playing as Alph. Robin could be a well-noted secondary as I use her and Olimar to really commit to setups in my playstyles.