[Competitive Discussion] Let's learn together

[Myran]

Alright guys so because I'm kinda lazy I'm just gonna post the text from the skype group, but I found an interesting tidbit about ledges and Olimar's lineup.

Taken straight from skype so I was explaining this to someone.

[10:07:23 PM] Ron Donalmue: So I always wondered why this happened, but I think I have figured out why whenever you grab onto the ledge your next active Pikmin becomes the one that was last in your line before you grabbed the ledge.
[10:08:46 PM] Inked: Please do share
[10:10:30 PM] Ron Donalmue: So if you pay attention when Olimar grabs the ledge the Pikmin come to you in a certain order. If you look right before they disappear you can see the last Pikmin in the lineup before you grabbed the ledge get the marker specifying it is now the first. I'm assuming this is because of how the Pikmin are treated on the ledge, and since the other ones ahead of it in the line disappear into the ledge first it makes that one the next to use when you leave the ledge.
[10:11:49 PM] Inked: I c
[10:12:18 PM] Ron Donalmue: Nice thing to keep in mind when fighting people. You can covertly switch your lineup to get like a purple in front without them knowing

I'm Ron for anyone asking.

A little extra tidbit of info I just found.
So apparently if you grab the ledge before the Pikmin reach you so if you fast fall and grab the ledge but your Pikmin come after the Pikmin will stay in the same order as when you grabbed the ledge

 

[Dalxp26]

Oh, now I get it.
Do you need very fast reaction for this to succeed? I never had did this before and I'm trying but seems like I can't recognize the situation correctly, because I don't succeed.

Im having a hard time understand this pikmin desync attack, care to clarify and explain in full detail? Is it like when the pikmins are desync from Olimar and they get hit they are able to attack in place?

 

[Myran]

Im having a hard time understand this pikmin desync attack, care to clarify and explain in full detail? Is it like when the pikmins are desync from Olimar and they get hit they are able to attack in place?

When the Pikmin are desynced from Olimar they have their hurtboxes active. This means that if you move Olimar and do a smash attack or have a Pikmin hit while its a set distance away from you (and input a smash) the Pikmin will do the smash attack from where it was hit, even if it's not where it should normally be. The video I linked earlier shows a few examples.

 

[Dalxp26]

have a grab on Sheik at 0%?

With anything other than blue...

Down Throw->Down Tilt->Jab->Jab->Re-Grab-> Down Throw-> Forward Air

Thank you RB for telling me

That combo is heavenly! I do dthrow into fast fall fair jab jab regrab d throw fair but this works better incase I miss the fast fall!

 

[Dalxp26]

When the Pikmin are desynced from Olimar they have their hurtboxes active. This means that if you move Olimar and do a smash attack or have a Pikmin hit while its a set distance away from you (and input a smash) the Pikmin will do the smash attack from where it was hit, even if it's not where it should normally be. The video I linked earlier shows a few examples.

Ahhh I saw the video like 5 times just now and didnt get it but now that I know what to look for im sure ill find it. Thanks

P.S im a SFL player and I hope to play you one day at versus to gain more Olimar knowledge!

 

[Myran]

Ahhh I saw the video like 5 times just now and didnt get it but now that I know what to look for im sure ill find it. Thanks

P.S im a SFL player and I hope to play you one day at versus to gain more Olimar knowledge!

Next time I'm at VS and you're there come up and chat. I'm more than happy to play you.

 

[Blue Banana]

Patch 1.08 dropped today, and looking at the patch thread in the competitve sub-forum there are changes applied to some characters. Are there any changes to Olimar? I haven't downloaded the patch yet.

 

[Myran]

Just started testing, but from what I've test it seems that the AT I mentioned earlier about Pikmin order reversing on the ledge has been patched out. I've tried on numerous stages, but whenever I do it my lineup remains the same.

 

[StripedNinja]

Didn't an uncharged Fsmash with purple sweetspot 21% before? It doesn't now. I don't know if it's nerfed across the board of colors, but I liked boasting that Oli's Fsmash did over 20 uncharged so this makes me sad.

 

[Myran]

Didn't an uncharged Fsmash with purple sweetspot 21% before? It doesn't now. I don't know if it's nerfed across the board of colors, but I liked boasting that Oli's Fsmash did over 20 uncharged so this makes me sad.

It still does. I tested it and got 21%. Training mode doesn't take staleness/freshness into account.

 

[Freezie KO]

Hoping for less "pikmin falling off the ledge" incidents. Just having the pikmin stay/return closer to Olimar would be heavenly. I hate missing follow ups because none of my three pikmin are "active."

 

[Myran]

Well ledge mechanics have become stickier it seems. You can't slide off the ledge with a side b anymore. You have to fully commit to running off the ledge before you can throw a Pikmin. Kinda sucks, because I found that to be a safe retreating option.

 

[StripedNinja]

Oh, my B, thanks for clearing that up

 

[Dalxp26]

Any word of Olimar with the newest patch? Diddy go hit hard again for no apparent reason so now imma have to hit the hyperbolic time chamber with Olimar twice as hard to compensate for him.

 

[Myran]

Any word of Olimar with the newest patch? Diddy go hit hard again for no apparent reason so now imma have to hit the hyperbolic time chamber with Olimar twice as hard to compensate for him.

Olimar has had no confirmed changes aside from the ledge lineup reversal being removed so whenever you grab the ledge your lineup stays in that order. All damage is still the same, will check the more in depth Pikmin mechanics later today when I can.

 

[koken]

Guys I'm not quite sure if this is the place to post this but anyway, I have to share this things with you.

Pummel

I have seen a lot of you that don't pummel at all or at least do it barely few times. The benefits from doing it are minimal at first glance, but on long terms are tremendous, that without considering your enemy may have a pikmin latched on.
I recommend to start doing at least 1 pummel like 15% - 25%, beyond that it's up to you.
Here are some numbers to help you out.

A match with an average of 3 or 4 grabs (I'm sure I do a lot more) has the next numbers using 5 grabs as example:

Pummel does 2% (RYBP) and 4% (W).

5 grabs * 1 pummel each 2% of damage = 10% extra
5 grabs * 1 pummel each 4% of damage = 20% extra
20% doesn't seems too worth it, but
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage = 20% extra
5 grabs * (8) 2 pummel each 4% of damage = 40% EXTRA
40% seems little, but let's be greedy and with a pikmin latched on, the maths gets crazy.

1.1% (latched RYB), 3.7% (latched W)

5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (2.2) 2 hits latched = 31%
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (7.4) 2 hits latched = 57%
57% seems too low yet? It's like a half of a stock for me.

Also consider this:

• The damage from the grab itself (Back, Forward, Combo Down + Anything, Up).
• Damage done by your Pikmin latched on. Being miserly add just a 10% of the entire match which is low in my opinion.
• Your purely damage in fight.

Give me your thoughts on this please.

 

[Dalxp26]

Guys I'm not quite sure if this is the place to post this but anyway, I have to share this things with you.

Pummel

I have seen a lot of you that don't pummel at all or at least do it barely few times. The benefits from doing it are minimal at first glance, but on long terms are tremendous, that without considering your enemy may have a pikmin latched on.
I recommend to start doing at least 1 pummel like 15% - 25%, beyond that it's up to you.
Here are some numbers to help you out.

A match with an average of 3 or 4 grabs (I'm sure I do a lot more) has the next numbers using 5 grabs as example:

Pummel does 2% (RYBP) and 4% (W).

5 grabs * 1 pummel each 2% of damage = 10% extra
5 grabs * 1 pummel each 4% of damage = 20% extra
20% doesn't seems too worth it, but
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage = 20% extra
5 grabs * (8) 2 pummel each 4% of damage = 40% EXTRA
40% seems little, but let's be greedy and with a pikmin latched on, the maths gets crazy.

1.1% (latched RYB), 3.7% (latched W)

5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (2.2) 2 hits latched = 31%
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (7.4) 2 hits latched = 57%
57% seems too low yet? It's like a half of a stock for me.

Also consider this:

• The damage from the grab itself (Back, Forward, Combo Down + Anything, Up).
• Damage done by your Pikmin latched on. Being miserly add just a 10% of the entire match which is low in my opinion.
• Your purely damage in fight.

Give me your thoughts on this please.

This is very interesting. I have a big problem pummeling because I play against Rosalina a lot and ***** ass Luma hits you out of a grab (extremely unfair). Its conditioned me not to pummel and just toss opponents right away but I have been trying to break that habit against non Rosa players. I try to tell my self whenever I grab with a white pikmin to pummel instead of tossing because it does more damage.

Also would you happen to know how many pummels are guaranteed at what percentage before they break free?

 

[Myran]

This is very interesting. I have a big problem pummeling because I play against Rosalina a lot and ***** *** Luma hits you out of a grab (extremely unfair). Its conditioned me not to pummel and just toss opponents right away but I have been trying to break that habit against non Rosa players. I try to tell my self whenever I grab with a white pikmin to pummel instead of tossing because it does more damage.

Also would you happen to know how many pummels are guaranteed at what percentage before they break free?

It's dependent on how fast the opponent mashes. I've seen people get one at 100%

 

[Blue Banana]

Guys I'm not quite sure if this is the place to post this but anyway, I have to share this things with you.

Pummel

I have seen a lot of you that don't pummel at all or at least do it barely few times. The benefits from doing it are minimal at first glance, but on long terms are tremendous, that without considering your enemy may have a pikmin latched on.
I recommend to start doing at least 1 pummel like 15% - 25%, beyond that it's up to you.
Here are some numbers to help you out.

A match with an average of 3 or 4 grabs (I'm sure I do a lot more) has the next numbers using 5 grabs as example:

Pummel does 2% (RYBP) and 4% (W).

5 grabs * 1 pummel each 2% of damage = 10% extra
5 grabs * 1 pummel each 4% of damage = 20% extra
20% doesn't seems too worth it, but
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage = 20% extra
5 grabs * (8) 2 pummel each 4% of damage = 40% EXTRA
40% seems little, but let's be greedy and with a pikmin latched on, the maths gets crazy.

1.1% (latched RYB), 3.7% (latched W)

5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (2.2) 2 hits latched = 31%
5 grabs * (4) 2 pummel each 2% of damage + 5 grabs * (7.4) 2 hits latched = 57%
57% seems too low yet? It's like a half of a stock for me.

Also consider this:

• The damage from the grab itself (Back, Forward, Combo Down + Anything, Up).
• Damage done by your Pikmin latched on. Being miserly add just a 10% of the entire match which is low in my opinion.
• Your purely damage in fight.

Give me your thoughts on this please.

The problem with pummeling at those percentages is that Olimar's pummel is very slow and the opportunity to start pummeling after you grab is a bit long, so opponents probably can mash out quickly enough to escape. That's why I think it's just better to do only Dthrow -> aerial at those percentages and start adding in a pummel at mid-high percentages when it's harder for the opponent to mash out of grab.

 

[Myran]

The problem with pummeling at those percentages is that Olimar's pummel is very slow and the opportunity to start pummeling after you grab is a bit long, so opponents probably can mash out quickly enough to escape. That's why I think it's just better to do only Dthrow -> aerial at those percentages and start adding in a pummel at mid-high percentages when it's harder for the opponent to mash out of grab.

Pummeling at low percents is risky, and I'd only advise as a weird mixup and to do it once. That being said I wouldn't even attempt to pummel until like 30ish% at the least. It's good, but there are better options at low %. Plus everyone here should start using dthrow into jump canceled usmash because with purple and blue it can do 32% from 0.

 

[Kon]

I also feel like pummeling only makes sense with the white Pikmin, as it is the only one to really deal much damage with the pummel. And normally when you have the white in your line, the ennemy could be already in middle %, so a few pummels with the white one are possible. For all the other Pikmin colors I prefer to not pummel at all.

 

[koken]

Thanks for your answer guys, really appreciate it.

It's true, maybe the 15% -> 25% it is low, but the truth is that pummeling with any Pikmin can give you the chance to kill an enemy or get closer to do it.

Just as an example because I can't remember the exact %: Think about a blue grab on Mario with a 140% and he surely dies on 142%, you missed the kill just because you didn't pummel.

I know some people will receive only 1 or 2 pummels having 80+% of damage, but the thing is that at least 1 pummel is enough to have a minimal of 10% extra on your enemy without effort regarding to get closer to take the stock.

Also, just for the record... I always succeed on doing at least 1 pummel before our wombo combo... so I'm not really sure if the time between the grab, pummel and throw is that extensive for your enemy to release.

Pummeling at low percents is risky, and I'd only advise as a weird mixup and to do it once. That being said I wouldn't even attempt to pummel until like 30ish% at the least. It's good, but there are better options at low %. Plus everyone here should start using dthrow into jump canceled usmash because with purple and blue it can do 32% from 0.

What is jump canceled usmash?

 

[Myran]

What is jump canceled usmash?

I use tap jump exclusively so I'll describe the move by how I do it. Pretty much you run and hit the up smash command on your control stick and a button. If timed right you cancel your dash animation with an up smash giving your more sliding distance than a standard dash up smash.

 

[koken]

I use tap jump exclusively so I'll describe the move by how I do it. Pretty much you run and hit the up smash command on your control stick and a button. If timed right you cancel your dash animation with an up smash giving your more sliding distance than a standard dash up smash.

I'm deeply sorry for my stupidity but... where is the jump on there x_x ?

Tap jump means when you press up the character jumps? I'm confused... @.@

 

[Myran]

I'm deeply sorry for my stupidity but... where is the jump on there x_x ?

Tap jump means when you press up the character jumps? I'm confused... @.@

Yes, you press up to jump, but you tap A at the same time to input a jump cancel allowing the up smash to come through. You're essentially running and rotating your control stick to an up smash position and doing one straight from the dash.

 

[koken]

I thought that "sliding" was just a placebo.
Does it really has a considerable difference with a normal dash and Usmash?
Some distance like a white grab and normal grab?

 

[Freezie KO]

I know we're off the pummel subject, but I fear the mashout. Unless I have a white pikmin and they're at mid-high percents, I don't usually pummel. I also pummel right before a blue up-throw.

 

[Myran]

I thought that "sliding" was just a placebo.
Does it really has a considerable difference with a normal dash and Usmash?
Some distance like a white grab and normal grab?

Yes that is a real thing.

 

[koken]

Yes that is a real thing.

Awesome, thanks, though I feel ashamed that just know this at this time -_-.

 

[Myran]

Awesome, thanks, though I feel ashamed that just know this at this time -_-.

Better to know now then never

 

[koken]

Is there another AT that I should know by now? This left me thinking...

 

[Myran]

Is there another AT that I should know by now? This left me thinking...

Umm none off the top of my head.

 

[koken]

Ok, great then.

Also is well known for everyone that Short Hop Dair autocancels on Olimar's landing from the upside position, right?

 

[Angbad]

Ok, great then.

Also is well known for everyone that Short Hop Dair autocancels on Olimar's landing from the upside position, right?

Yeah I use this a lot, but don't see anyone else doing it.

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

Looking for Olimar practice. Until CEO, the only Olimar I played was Coco. I fought Myran and managed to get bodied pretty hard. Definitely looking for some matches.

Is anyone willing to battle and get some MU exp?

 

[Flawlessh]

Any1 happen to have the frame data of olimars customs? (mainly down-b, im curious on the super armor frames of his different whistles.)

 

[Myran]

Any1 happen to have the frame data of olimars customs? (mainly down-b, im curious on the super armor frames of his different whistles.)

I believe Dizzy whistle doesn't have it, and Order Tackle is the same but I could be wrong on that one.

 

[koken]

Any1 happen to have the frame data of olimars customs? (mainly down-b, im curious on the super armor frames of his different whistles.)

I believe Dizzy whistle doesn't have it, and Order Tackle is the same but I could be wrong on that one.

If custom gives a larger frame of super armor, I mean significantly, could be a surprise.
Even though I think it will not make it better lol .

 

[Alph Aran]

Just found out that the Pikmin can latch on to Smash Balls. Just something some of you might want to know if you play For Fun sometimes.

 

[Myran]

Alright guys so I'm back with a new AT, and I've named it the Pocket Pikmin. So what it does is it makes one the first Pikmin in your lineup invisible while keeping it active. It is canceled when you use any smash or aerial, as well as side-b, up-b and grab. While the Pikmin is hidden you can use all other moves I have listed without cancelling this.

Now for the down side, it is semi-situational and pretty difficult to perform consistently. To have it happen you must drop from the ledge right as a Pikmin (Usually one running back to you from on stage) jumps into your lineup and disappears as all Pikmin do while Olimar is on the ledge. I'm assuming this happens, because right as you drop from the ledge the Pikmin is storing itself on the ledge where it should be, and it gets glitched out. You'll notice if you up-b with this active a Pikmin will fly super fast from the ledge and into the up-b. I'm not sure of the exact timing window, but it seems no more than a few frames at most. You can do it with all colors, and I feel it could be a valuable tool in throwing your opponent off since they will think you have a different Pikmin in front since the cursor moves into your next Pikmin. Even if you whistle and the cursor bounces between the 2 you have active the hidden one will always act for the next attack. You can also pluck Pikmin while this is active allowing you to really throw your opponent off.

Below I have a video showing how it is performed. It is recorded off my phone so just try to ignore the mehh quality, and also sorry about the shaking I have pretty unsteady hands. It's about a 5 minute video, because I mess it up quite a few times so I'll include time stamps to show the 4 times I get it. One last note, I find it most difficult to do with purples, but they could just have a different timing.

Time stamps
0:18
0:47
3:33
4:19

P.S. I also found out you can cancel the landing animation with your up-b with a smash if you do it right as Olimar slides into the ground. So there's that for you guys as well.