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Only his up smash has more lag, his down Smash is actually faster and his side smash is yhe same. And 4% for each hit is still a LOT of damage. I havent noticed a decrease in priority but I dont have solid backing on that. I have had different expiriences woth up throw, I find it reliable. His smashes are reflectable, but it isnt bad game design, it just changes matchups and makes you focus on arials and setups more. Ive also come across that situation and I delt with it. Pikmin are definitley screwy with AI but they are also easier to acess. Im not justifying anything, I am not looking at how hebis compared to Brawl, that is the exact thing Im AVOIDING. Everyone ELSE seems obsessed with it and thats the problem. All I'm looking at is how he is now in comparison to the rest of the cast, and hes still a character who does lots of damage, has good kill potential, has a somewhat readable but VERY far recovery and has a lot of cool tricks up his sleeve.
You're right to not be going out of our way to look at what is wrong with him now. I just get really frustrated that they nerfed so much on him from Brawl, and now he has trouble dealing with characters like Yoshi, Sonic, and Sheik who just run circles around him. I'm fine with him being nerfed, but bringing up a new cast of amazing characters just adds to already existent problems he has in this game.
Alright, I'm gonna start my breakdown of what the current Olimar in Smash 4 is looking like to me. I'm gonna cover the changes whether they are good or bad, and how I think he needs to be played to maximize the chances of winning. I will also being referencing his Brawl counterpart a bit to distinguish the changes to the character. Please let me know if you guys have anything to add or want to debate.
1.) General Changes
Olimar in Smash 4 has been changed quite a bit from his previous iteration. First off his Pikmin count has been changed from 6 to 3, and the Pikmin are always plucked in a set order. The order is red, yellow, blue, white, and purple. His recovery has also been changed to be winged Pikmin carrying him instead of the tether he had in Brawl. The wing Pikmin will carry you farther the less Pikmin you have, and will tire out if used consistently in the air without landing (So if you get hit and then use your up-special over and over again the range will decrease). A couple of the other noticeable changes are his jab, f-tilt, and up-air. The jab is now a 1-2 punch with the fist enlarging for the second punch (The Brawl jab was a head swing that he would use twice before starting the cycle over). The f-tilt is now a large punch with a decent amount of knock back, and can be used as a kill move (The Brawl ftilt was a single dropkick with decent knockback). Finally his up-air is a single hit move that is used more as and early percent juggling tool, and can be used as a kill move with the right Pikmin/enemy percent (Brawl up-air was a multihit move usually keeping the opponent in the hitbox for the entire move). Desyncing also returns, and seems to be worse. Pikmin will randomly fly to the other stage when a move is used sometimes, and can also drop out of your line at anytime you are moving.
2.) Smash attacks.
Now that the obvious changes to Olimar are out of the way let's dive into the subtle ones. First off his up-smash has a considerable increased in it's ending lag, and has a reduction in the range that the Pikmin flies. The knockback seems to be about the same as in Brawl, but more testing needs to be done to accurately find out. The d-smash remains almost if not the exact same as it did in Brawl so I won't go over it mechanically any further. The f-smash is the new tool for killing. With close to the same speed as it has in Brawl, and has a considerable amount of knock back compared to the other two smashes. The sweet spot of it is at the start up of the smash which is closest to Olimar, and the Pikmin the provide the most knockback are Purples and Reds.
3.) Aerials
Olimar's aerial game is a bit different than it was in Brawl. His f-air is used as a spacing tool more so, and the kill power on the move has been reduced. The b-air can be used as a kill move, but can be harder to hit when the opponent is on stage. The up-air is now a single hit move with the ability to kill, and can be used to juggle the opponent from coming down. The d-air is the same as it was in Brawl. The hit box on the Pikmin seem to be all around it, and can send the opponent in most directions( The spike hit box does seem harder to hit this time around, but more testing is needed to fully support this). Olimar's aerials are great combo tools, and can be used out of his throws (Usually d-throw) to combo the opponent. His n-air is just as good of a tool as always. The multi-hit move can be a solid landing option and can usually be followed up with up-tilt.
4.) Grabs
(To maximize knock back when using Olimar's throws use a blue Pikmin.)
Olimar's grab is not the amazing tool it was in Brawl. It is still a solid choice that can be used to kill, but it has become very easy to punish. The grab ranges of the Pikmin go in this order white, blue, red, yellow, and purple. White being the greatest distance while red, yellow, and blue are the same, and purple being the least amount of distance. There has also been an increase on the ending lag of the grab in this game. This allows a whiffed grab to be punished much easier. With the increased lag and lessened range the grab cannot be used as freely as it was in Brawl.Now let's dive into the different throws Olimar has. The f-throw launches the opponent forward, but is not a reliable kill move or combo starter. It is great for getting the opponent offstage or away from Olimar. The b-throw is in the same category as it doesn't have the same kill power it had in Brawl, but it can be used to get the opponent off stage if needed. The u-throw is the only consistent kill move out of all of Olimar's throws. The blue u-throw can kill as early as 120-130 on some characters. Unfortunately since the addition of the new rage mechanic (This causes greater knock back when the character using the attack is at higher percent) the throws will not always kill that early when Olimar is at low percent. The d-throw is the combo throw. It can be followed up with a f-air, f-smash, up-smash, or up-air depending on the weight of the character and how the vectored. To maximize combo potential using a Pikmin with less knock back can make combos easier.
4.) Tilts, jab, and dash attack.
The f-tilt is a strong punch that can be used as a kill move, and can be even deadlier when applied with a pivot. The up-tilt is a more grounded version of his n-air where he jumps up slightly (I believe it goes higher than the Brawl counterpart.) It can also be followed up with an aerial in some occasions. The d-tilt is the same as in Brawl. Olimar slides across the ground a short distance, and the enemy is popped into the air. The can also be followed up with an attack in some cases. The jab is now a 1-2 punch that can be used to disrupt the opponent and allow for added pressure from Olimar. It is fast, and can sometimes be followed up with a grab. His dash attack is the same as in Brawl. He cartwheels forward and pops the enemy up, but the combo potential is scarce.
5.) Specials
(For the sake of simplicity I will not be going into Olimar's custom specials at this time.)
The neutral special is the Pikmin pluck. It plucks the Pikmin one at a time, and in the fixed order. The Pikmin pluck can still be canceled as it was in Brawl. The side special is the Pikmin toss. This allows Olimar to throw the Pikmin a fixed distance away from him. All Pikmin except the purple which have a hard hit box will attach to him and do damage over time (White Pikmin do the most, and the red, blue, and yellow all do the same). One added benefit is being able to pivot Pikmin toss (I want to say it's called that), and have little to no lag when done. The down special is the whistle. This move calls all the Pikmin to Olimar, and will arrange them in the order they are plucked. Starting with red, and each whistle after putting the next Pikmin color in front. The whistle retains the super armor, but the timing required to use it seems to have been shortened. The up special is the winged Pikmin. They will come and pick Olimar up, and carry him a set distance depending on how many Pikmin you have. After the winged Pikmin leave Olimar is put into a free falling state and can be punished, but you are able to act before the winged Pikmin leave (Ex. Olimar drops right before the Pikmin leave and starts a n-air, but after the n-air ends he is put into free fall).
6.) Thoughts on play style
I have played around 600 for glory, local wireless, and wifi matches with a varying level of skill between the people. From what I have seen you have to play campy in order to get certain characters like Little Mac to attack and then punish. On the other hand some match ups like Rosalina and Luma (I personally think is a bad match up) require you to wait until the opponent opens themselves up without going in. Furthermore when fighting a campy character such as Link or Toon Link the strategy that I have come up with is to camp them until they approach and then punish( This is a little different from the Little Mac strategy as they will try to outcamp you too. Just try to not leave yourself open). Being the aggressor in these situations does not usually work out if the opposing player knows what they are doing. It's hard to explain, but I believe Olimar takes a mix of aggressive play and campiness that is dependent on the matchup. Due to the high speed of most characters that are being played competitively at the moment it is best to wait and punish. If Olimar whiffs a move it is very easy to punish him. I don't want to say he is becoming strictly a hard reading character, but to be played at a high level I think a well balance amount of aggression and campiness is needed.
7.) Final thoughts
Olimar is definitely not the Brawl Olimar that many of us enjoyed. He has been toned down, and most of his tools have been changed. That being said I think he can still be viable with a patient player who knows when to punish and has a good understanding of how Olimar works and what he can punish. His increased lag and lessened range of moves means that spacing is even more critical than it was in Brawl. I definitely look forward to playing this character even with his flaws, and can't wait to see how everyone can help develop his metagame.
P.S. I know that there are probably some bad sentence structure/redundant things in this post. I have never written anything like this so I'm trying my best to keep it well written and informative. I am also open to discussion, or any new info about the character that you would like me to add. There is still a lot to learn, and these are my impressions of him mixed with my understanding of the character from Brawl and how he changed.
The jab is now a 1-2 punch with the fist enlarging for the second punch (The Brawl jab was a head swing that he would use twice before starting the cycle over). The f-tilt is now a large punch with a decent amount of knock back, and can be used as a kill move (The Brawl ftilt was a single dropkick with decent knockback).
These are huge buffs. One of Olimar's biggest problems in Brawl was that he didn't have very many good up close options, especially against characters that had a disjoint (MK, Marth) or high priority (Snake, Luigi). Not only that, but his old jab was not safe. The way that it worked made it so that the first hit (which actually had two hitboxes) would cancel its own hitstun, and not combo into the second swing. These new close range options are really good. Also need to look more into dtilt, as it seems to feel a bit better this time around too.
Finally his up-air is a single hit move that is used more as and early percent juggling tool, and can be used as a kill move with the right Pikmin/enemy percent (Brawl up-air was a multihit move usually keeping the opponent in the hitbox for the entire move).
Should also be noted that it feels that Up Air has a lot less range in this game, too. Especially on yellows. The fact that it isn't a multi hit attack also makes it a bit more difficult to beat out moves, compared to how it use to be.[/quote]
Desyncing also returns, and seems to be worse. Pikmin will randomly fly to the other stage when a move is used sometimes, and can also drop out of your line at anytime you are moving.
Not only that, but Olimar's zone of control (the range in which he is able to command a pikmin for an attack) is much, much smaller than the Line Zone (area in which a Pikmin is counted among Olimar's line, and is ordered as such). Because of this, a Pikmin can be considered the next Pikmin in Olimar's Line, but not being within the area in which Olimar can use him for an attack, causing Olimar to attempt to use the attack, failing to perform the attack. This will continue until The Pikmin enters the Control Zone, Olimar whistles to change his order, or the Pikmin Dies.
I haven't checked yet to see if a Pikmin can be whistled back to Olimar in this state or not. I know in Brawl, a Pikmin could only be whistled back to Olimar if he was in neither his Control or Line Zones, but that may not be the case this time around.
Also, we should keep in mind that these bugs and glitches involving Pikmin may be changed when the Wii U version launches, as the Pikmin will be at 60 FPS, and may not be as buggy.
Now that the obvious changes to Olimar are out of the way let's dive into the subtle ones. First off his up-smash has a considerable increased in it's ending lag, and has a reduction in the range that the Pikmin flies. The knockback seems to be about the same as in Brawl, but more testing needs to be done to accurately find out.
I've had several Yellow Up Smashes kill, which shocks me every time. In Brawl, Yellow Up Smash had the second worst knockback out of the five, behind whites. It makes me wonder if the differences between the Pikmin aren't as drastic as they were in Brawl.
Yet sadly not Up Smash, anymore. RIP. At least it's a lot more difficult. I was able to get Nair to Dsmash, although I'm going to want to check into it a bit more to see how guaranteed it is. Might have just been a fluke, or the opponent not reacting in time.
This was a good read, really well put together. We should get some wifi in sometime, man. I honestly haven't played Olimar a whole lot, or seen a lot of him either. And considering all of the top Olimars except one (that I've seen) have ended up maining someone else, I want to see someone who actually has a feel for him.[/quote]
When all of a characters smashes and a majority of his kill power is said smashes it doesn't make to much since to limit his power. It defeats the purpose of hard reads, because if the person gets even the slightest chance they can reflect it if there character has the move.
Alright, I'm gonna start my breakdown of what the current Olimar in Smash 4 is looking like to me. I'm gonna cover the changes whether they are good or bad, and how I think he needs to be played to maximize the chances of winning. I will also being referencing his Brawl counterpart a bit to distinguish the changes to the character. Please let me know if you guys have anything to add or want to debate.
1.) General Changes
Olimar in Smash 4 has been changed quite a bit from his previous iteration. First off his Pikmin count has been changed from 6 to 3, and the Pikmin are always plucked in a set order. The order is red, yellow, blue, white, and purple. His recovery has also been changed to be winged Pikmin carrying him instead of the tether he had in Brawl. The wing Pikmin will carry you farther the less Pikmin you have, and will tire out if used consistently in the air without landing (So if you get hit and then use your up-special over and over again the range will decrease). A couple of the other noticeable changes are his jab, f-tilt, and up-air. The jab is now a 1-2 punch with the fist enlarging for the second punch (The Brawl jab was a head swing that he would use twice before starting the cycle over). The f-tilt is now a large punch with a decent amount of knock back, and can be used as a kill move (The Brawl ftilt was a single dropkick with decent knockback). Finally his up-air is a single hit move that is used more as and early percent juggling tool, and can be used as a kill move with the right Pikmin/enemy percent (Brawl up-air was a multihit move usually keeping the opponent in the hitbox for the entire move). Desyncing also returns, and seems to be worse. Pikmin will randomly fly to the other stage when a move is used sometimes, and can also drop out of your line at anytime you are moving.
2.) Smash attacks.
Now that the obvious changes to Olimar are out of the way let's dive into the subtle ones. First off his up-smash has a considerable increased in it's ending lag, and has a reduction in the range that the Pikmin flies. The knockback seems to be about the same as in Brawl, but more testing needs to be done to accurately find out. The d-smash remains almost if not the exact same as it did in Brawl so I won't go over it mechanically any further. The f-smash is the new tool for killing. With close to the same speed as it has in Brawl, and has a considerable amount of knock back compared to the other two smashes. The sweet spot of it is at the start up of the smash which is closest to Olimar, and the Pikmin the provide the most knockback are Purples and Reds.
3.) Aerials
Olimar's aerial game is a bit different than it was in Brawl. His f-air is used as a spacing tool more so, and the kill power on the move has been reduced. The b-air can be used as a kill move, but can be harder to hit when the opponent is on stage. The up-air is now a single hit move with the ability to kill, and can be used to juggle the opponent from coming down. The d-air is the same as it was in Brawl. The hit box on the Pikmin seem to be all around it, and can send the opponent in most directions( The spike hit box does seem harder to hit this time around, but more testing is needed to fully support this). Olimar's aerials are great combo tools, and can be used out of his throws (Usually d-throw) to combo the opponent. His n-air is just as good of a tool as always. The multi-hit move can be a solid landing option and can usually be followed up with up-tilt.
4.) Grabs
(To maximize knock back when using Olimar's throws use a blue Pikmin.)
Olimar's grab is not the amazing tool it was in Brawl. It is still a solid choice that can be used to kill, but it has become very easy to punish. The grab ranges of the Pikmin go in this order white, blue, red, yellow, and purple. White being the greatest distance while red, yellow, and blue are the same, and purple being the least amount of distance. There has also been an increase on the ending lag of the grab in this game. This allows a whiffed grab to be punished much easier. With the increased lag and lessened range the grab cannot be used as freely as it was in Brawl.Now let's dive into the different throws Olimar has. The f-throw launches the opponent forward, but is not a reliable kill move or combo starter. It is great for getting the opponent offstage or away from Olimar. The b-throw is in the same category as it doesn't have the same kill power it had in Brawl, but it can be used to get the opponent off stage if needed. The u-throw is the only consistent kill move out of all of Olimar's throws. The blue u-throw can kill as early as 120-130 on some characters. Unfortunately since the addition of the new rage mechanic (This causes greater knock back when the character using the attack is at higher percent) the throws will not always kill that early when Olimar is at low percent. The d-throw is the combo throw. It can be followed up with a f-air, f-smash, up-smash, or up-air depending on the weight of the character and how the vectored. To maximize combo potential using a Pikmin with less knock back can make combos easier.
4.) Tilts, jab, and dash attack.
The f-tilt is a strong punch that can be used as a kill move, and can be even deadlier when applied with a pivot. The up-tilt is a more grounded version of his n-air where he jumps up slightly (I believe it goes higher than the Brawl counterpart.) It can also be followed up with an aerial in some occasions. The d-tilt is the same as in Brawl. Olimar slides across the ground a short distance, and the enemy is popped into the air. The can also be followed up with an attack in some cases. The jab is now a 1-2 punch that can be used to disrupt the opponent and allow for added pressure from Olimar. It is fast, and can sometimes be followed up with a grab. His dash attack is the same as in Brawl. He cartwheels forward and pops the enemy up, but the combo potential is scarce.
5.) Specials
(For the sake of simplicity I will not be going into Olimar's custom specials at this time.)
The neutral special is the Pikmin pluck. It plucks the Pikmin one at a time, and in the fixed order. The Pikmin pluck can still be canceled as it was in Brawl. The side special is the Pikmin toss. This allows Olimar to throw the Pikmin a fixed distance away from him. All Pikmin except the purple which have a hard hit box will attach to him and do damage over time (White Pikmin do the most, and the red, blue, and yellow all do the same). One added benefit is being able to pivot Pikmin toss (I want to say it's called that), and have little to no lag when done. The down special is the whistle. This move calls all the Pikmin to Olimar, and will arrange them in the order they are plucked. Starting with red, and each whistle after putting the next Pikmin color in front. The whistle retains the super armor, but the timing required to use it seems to have been shortened. The up special is the winged Pikmin. They will come and pick Olimar up, and carry him a set distance depending on how many Pikmin you have. After the winged Pikmin leave Olimar is put into a free falling state and can be punished, but you are able to act before the winged Pikmin leave (Ex. Olimar drops right before the Pikmin leave and starts a n-air, but after the n-air ends he is put into free fall).
6.) Thoughts on play style
I have played around 600 for glory, local wireless, and wifi matches with a varying level of skill between the people. From what I have seen you have to play campy in order to get certain characters like Little Mac to attack and then punish. On the other hand some match ups like Rosalina and Luma (I personally think is a bad match up) require you to wait until the opponent opens themselves up without going in. Furthermore when fighting a campy character such as Link or Toon Link the strategy that I have come up with is to camp them until they approach and then punish( This is a little different from the Little Mac strategy as they will try to outcamp you too. Just try to not leave yourself open). Being the aggressor in these situations does not usually work out if the opposing player knows what they are doing. It's hard to explain, but I believe Olimar takes a mix of aggressive play and campiness that is dependent on the matchup. Due to the high speed of most characters that are being played competitively at the moment it is best to wait and punish. If Olimar whiffs a move it is very easy to punish him. I don't want to say he is becoming strictly a hard reading character, but to be played at a high level I think a well balance amount of aggression and campiness is needed.
7.) Final thoughts
Olimar is definitely not the Brawl Olimar that many of us enjoyed. He has been toned down, and most of his tools have been changed. That being said I think he can still be viable with a patient player who knows when to punish and has a good understanding of how Olimar works and what he can punish. His increased lag and lessened range of moves means that spacing is even more critical than it was in Brawl. I definitely look forward to playing this character even with his flaws, and can't wait to see how everyone can help develop his metagame.
P.S. I know that there are probably some bad sentence structure/redundant things in this post. I have never written anything like this so I'm trying my best to keep it well written and informative. I am also open to discussion, or any new info about the character that you would like me to add. There is still a lot to learn, and these are my impressions of him mixed with my understanding of the character from Brawl and how he changed.
Thanks for posting this, I think I had some false views of where you stand on this and I think ive got a good grasp on what you've been saying. Very informative post
Checked out the damage differences between the Pikmin.
Important things to note:
Purple Fsmash deals twenty damage! Uncharged!!
Yellow and Blue Pikmin do the exact same damage for Smashes and Aerials.
White Smashes are only 3 damage less than the Yellow or Blue variant, and only 4 when fully charged. And Whites are only 2 damage less than Yellow and Blue!
For Throws, Yellow, White, and Purple all deal the exact same damage for any individual Throw. The only exception is White Down Throw, which deals less than 1% less than Yellow and Purple.
Forward Throw is Olimar's weakest throw in terms of damage.
Up and Down Throw deal the exact same damage for each individual Pikmin, with the exception of White Down Throw dealing less than 1% less than White Up Throw.
[Collapse=Sorted By Moves]Up Smash: Uncharged:
Red: 15
Yellow: 13
Blue: 13
White: 10
Purple: 18
Note: Red, Yellow, Blue, and Purple Down Throws are all multihit attacks with the first hit doing 1% damage. White Down Throw is also a multi hit attack, but the first hit does less than 1%.
Edit: Important! The amount of time a Pikmin stays latched to your opponent is the opposite of how it was in Brawl! The damage your opponent has DECREASES the amount of time the Pikmin stays latched. I don't know if inputs decreases it further, like it was previously.
Thanks Hilt, I knew which Pikmin were better for what scenarios, but was unaware of the exact damage so I didn't include it in the previous post. I would also be down to play some time, even though I really hate Olimar dittos lol.
In a couple days I'll go back into my post and add the info you and anyone else can give to try to give an updated directory.
Hello. I'm a person who is not necessarily set on a main yet, but I'm trying out Olimar first because he was my main in Brawl. I typed out some notes on his moveset. I'll also post KO percentages for different weight classes and an addendum for custom moves once I have time to test these.
Notes
- For some moves, I listed out some KO percentages on a Level 9 Mario CPU in Training Mode. For most moves that knock the opponent off the side of the screen, I listed two percentages for Battlefield Omega (henceforth BFO in this post): one percentage for KO at the starting position (near a ledge of BFO), and another at the center of BFO. For most moves that knock the opponent off the top of the screen, I put down three percentages for Battlefield Normal (BF): one on the top platform, another for one of the two side platforms, and a third for the main/ground platform. The KO percentages will be listed in theses orders.
- All KO percentages listed create the "death sparks" and KO the opponent, based on 2-5 times. Some moves can KO with slightly less percentage (as much as 5%), while others show the "death sparks" but do not KO probably due to the CPU's DI/VI.
- All KO percentages assume that Olimar is not in rage mode and the opponent is hit in the sweetspot.
- Some moves list the knockback direction. For most of them, I put down the angle the "line" of the knockback makes with the main platform of BF/BFO. If I put down "upward," it's usually a right angle give or take 5 degrees. These may be inaccurate due to CPU DI/VI. Non-Pikmin moves A - One-two punch combo. Sweetspot on fists. 3% per hit, 4% on sweetspot, 6-8% total Ftilt - Windup punch. 11%.
- KO's Mario at 135% at starting position on BFO.
- Has a bit of startup lag.
- Knocks foe back at an approx. 30-35 degree angle. Utilt - Stationary spinning jump. 7 hits, first 6 hits do less than 1% each, totaling up to 3%, final hit does 4%, 7% total.
- Knocks foe upward. Dtilt - Slide attack. 6%
- Knocks foe upward. Dash A - Cartwheel. 2 hits, 7%/4%, 11% total
- Knocks foe diagonally upward, at an angle of approx. 75-80 degrees. Nair - Aerial version of utilt. 5 hits, first 4 hits total up to 6%, final hit does 2%, 8% total.
- Knocks foe at an angle of approx. 70-75 degrees.
Pikmin moves
- All smashes can be reflected back to Olimar.
- Smashes can be absorbed by Rosalina's Gravitational Pull, but they don't seem to be affected by Villager's Pocket or Wario's Chomp. Fsmash - Spinning lunge
- Range: A little less than 1/4 of BFO, except purples that go about half of that
- This attack has a sweetspot and 2 sourspots. The sweetspot is in the first half of the animation, the sourspot is in the second half of the animation, and the super sourspot is just when the Pikmin falls down. Damage percentages are listed in this order.
- Pikmin cannot return to Olimar's line through Down B until they start to get up.
- Knockback angled at 30-35 degrees.
- If Fsmash is used at or very near a ledge, the Pikmin will go over it; otherwise, it will stop at the very edge of it. The Pikmin has no hitbox while falling, and if it cannot be called back until it lands on solid ground. This means that using Pikmin over the abyss means that they will fall to their death.
- Fsmash can cancel out some projectiles, unaffecting the range or movement of the Pikmin. Usmash - The Pikmin jumps and cartwheels.
- Range: From the main platform on BF, it just touches a side platform. It also has a tiny bit of horizontal range, with more range in the direction Olimar is facing.
- There is a sourspot at the peak of the jump or if the opponent gets hit at the maximum horizontal range. Damage listed in order of sweet/sour.
- Has considerable lag, moreso than the other smashes.
- Knocks foe upward. Dsmash - 2 Pikmin rush on both sides of Olimar.
- The first Pikmin will go in the direction that Olimar is facing, while the second (if any) goes in the opposite.
- If there are only 2 Pikmin in line, the Pikmin that was first will still be first.
- Range: Each Pikmin goes about half a platform on BF, purples go half that distance.
- This attack has a sourspot right as the attack ends. Damage listed in order of sweet/sour.
- Knocks foe more horizontally than Fsmash, at 20-25 degrees. Grabs and throws
Pummel percentages are 2% for all colors except whites, which deal 4%
- The grab range for reds, yellows, and blues are about 1/8 of BFO. Whites have 1/16 more, while purples have 1/16 less.
- KO percentages for blue throws, except Dthrow:
Fthrow: 198% at starting position of BFO
Bthrow: 171% at starting position of BFO
Uthrow: 127/143/157 for top/middle/main platforms of BF
Dthrow: 200+%, too high to bother testing
- Dthrow can be followed up with an aerial at low percentages.
- All throws' knockback are mostly vertical, with Uthrow nearly being a right angle. Aerial attacks
- A purple fair KOs Mario at 171% at the starting position of BFO, so that's why I didn't choose to test it.
- Bair is tested on a standing CPU at the starting position of BFO.
- Uair is tested on a CPU standing on the top platform of BF and a jumping CPU at the peak of his jump from the same platform.
- Dair is tested by using a white bthrow from around the starting position of BFO followed by a dair spike. Percentages listed are when Mario is knocked off the bottom of the screen and will either be entirely KO'd or just start the beginning of the Up-B but not enough to cancel the downward momentum and avoid getting KO'd.
- The sweetspot for dair seems to be right when the Pikmin shines and if part of the opponent is directly beneath the Pikmin. Everywhere else or any other timing makes the attack sour, but there is no damage reduction.
Special Moves B - Pikmin Pluck
- Properties of Pikmin aside from damage differences:
Whites are very fast while purples are slow. This can be a problem if a purple is the third in line since the third tends to lag behind when Olimar is running.
Whites are very frail and usually die from most weak attacks, while purples and blues can usually take a solid hit or two more than reds and yellows.
Reds, yellows, and blues are immune to their respective elements: fire, electricity, and water.
According to a tip in the Tips section, yellows supposedly have larger hitboxes.
Pikmin sometimes separate, or desync, from the line for no apparent reason and usually run away. For example, if Olimar is near one edge of the main platform of an Omega stage, a Pikmin could run to the other side. I'm not sure if this is supposed to be Pikmin "goofing off" as mentioned in a Tip.
- When the Pikmin gets plucked out and there is no other Pikmin in Olimar's line, then the Pikmin will register as the first one in the line. This also means is that as long as Olimar is close enough to the Pikmin, he can use it for any attack that requires a Pikmin. This also cancels out the animation of the Pikmin somersaulting in the air.
For reds, yellows, blues, Olimar must an do attack right when the Pikmin is plucked out or just as the Pikmin lands. This is because the Pikmin jumps in a arc that is too high above Olimar's "order range." (He can do an aerial from a full jump to still use the Pikmin, but not a short hop.)
Purples and whites do not have the issue of the other colors because their maximum vertical distance is much shorter than the others.
Side B - Pikmin Throw
- The time that a Pikmin sticks onto an opponent, as well as the number of hits it can do, is based on the damage the opponent has.
0-19%: 8 hits
20-52%: 7 hits
53-83%: 6 hits
84-115%: 5 hits
116-147%: 4 hits
148-179%: 3 hits
180+%: 2 hits
- Damage per hit is 1-2% for all colors except whites and purples. Whites deal 2-3% per hit, and purples just directly hit for 6%.
- The number of hits a Pikmin does can be reduced through an opponent's movement. I'm not sure if hurting (but not killing a Pikmin) also reduces it.
- Range (on level ground): Reds and blues go about less than half of BFO, yellows go at a slightly higher arc with slightly less distance than reds/blues, whites move faster horizontally and cover slightly more distance than reds/blues, purples cover 80% of reds/blues.
- Non-purples do not hit and directly pass through shields while flying.
- Damage sustained from a latched Pikmin can be avoided if the opponent shields or if using a move with invincibility frames (mostly rolls and dodges, but it also probably applies to a few attacks like Palutena's Celestial Fireworks/Down B3.)
- If a thrown Pikmin is immune to a certain type of projectile, then the Pikmin cancels it out and keeps going in its trajectory.
- Depending on the location they latch onto, projectiles from the opponent will immediately hit the Pikmin.
- Thrown Pikmin can be reflected.
- Thrown purples can be absorbed by Rosalina's Gravitational Pull, eaten by Wario, and Pocketed by Villager. A Pocketed purple deals 17%, KO's a Lv9 CPU Olimar at 90% around the edge of Battlefield, flies at a higher arc than Olimar's, and does not inhibit Olimar to pluck another Pikmin if he has 2 out, as the Pocketed purple immediately dies. Every other color does not seem to be affected by these moves.
Up B - Winged Pikmin
- Maximum vertical distance (assuming winged pikmin are at max energy)
3 Pikmin: Goes just above the top platform of BF
2 Pikmin: Reaches top of the screen
1 Pikmin: Goes off the top of the screen at the end of recovery
0 Pikmin: Starting a little below the ledge of the main platform, goes off the top of the screen at the end of recovery
Down B - Pikmin Order
- Pikmin can be called back only if they're at least a set distance away from Olimar, are not recovering from Fsmash, or if they're latched onto an opponent with Side B.
- Olimar has super armor right before he blows on his whistle.
I don't know if that is entirely true. A good example is when Olimar grabs onto the ledge of a stage more times than not his 2nd and 3rd Pikmin will desync from the line and drop. They do not come back to whistle immediately, but can be whistled back once they have fallen a set distance.
Overall I have to give you props for this testing. It really helps to find out the percentages of his moves so early on. I think once we have the frame date for all of his moves we can really start to break him down. I figured he had a sweet spot on his smashes, but wasn't sure exactly where it occurred. (With the exception of the sweet spot being at the beginning of the smash.)
As a really good Pikmin player and fan of the series I mained Olimar in Brawl for a while but not competitively and I got a bit tired of him after a while. But damn this new Olimar feels and stays more faithful to how I wanted him to be in Brawl. I was really disappointed at his moveset which seemed kinda plain but now most of his moves are actually in his original game specially that Pikmin 2 based f tilt! I like that you pluck Pikmin in order and they are easier to manage because thats the key to being successful with the actual Pikmin. Just like in the games a golden rule is to always keep them working. If you have a very projectile spammy rival like Link or Samus, always keep at least one Pikmin busy blocking the attacks in order for you to approach.
Its really fun that you have to actually strategize more now due to the lack of Pikmin and depending on the situation and ability of th e Pikmin! Still kinda upset Rock Pikmin got no love as I think they could have added an extra twist to his gameplay as well. But overall I have been VERY successful with Olimar in online matches against really good people. Even if the Pikmin do less damage when they latch on, a lot of people underestimate it, so just like in Pikmin games, throw Pikmin to win!
So I was sitting in for glory, wondering who to try out, an I noticed that Olimar is probably the most neglected character in this game. I picked him up, and I love how he changed. To me he seems to have a nomadic playstyle, where you are constantly throwing Pikmin and re-plucking. In brawl I never used his side special, as losing your Pikmin hindered your recovery. I love being able to "camp" with Pikmin now. Does anyone else play like this now? Or am I doing something wrong??? XD
I am still having issues with killing, any pointers for that, or just olimar in general?
So I was sitting in for glory, wondering who to try out, an I noticed that Olimar is probably the most neglected character in this game. I picked him up, and I love how he changed. To me he seems to have a nomadic playstyle, where you are constantly throwing Pikmin and re-plucking. In brawl I never used his side special, as losing your Pikmin hindered your recovery. I love being able to "camp" with Pikmin now. Does anyone else play like this now? Or am I doing something wrong??? XD
I am still having issues with killing, any pointers for that, or just olimar in general?
Pikmin toss was one of his biggest tools in Brawl actually. His camp game has always been one his best attributes. Now for killing you have a few options. A forward smash can do the trick quite nicely. Purple and red Pikmin are the best for killing with everything except grabs. Ftilt, Bair, and the other two smashes also can work well. Just be weary of throwing them out so that you don't become to predictable. You can also use up throw with a blue Pikmin. This can kill as early as 120 depending on the character you're fighting, and how much rage mode you have.
Throwing your Pikmin is a much riskier option now because of how defenseless you are without them. People are complaining about the changes, but I'm enjoying him now more than ever, much more of a risk/reward style character, just as versatile but more strategy is required.
Throwing your Pikmin is a much riskier option now because of how defenseless you are without them. People are complaining about the changes, but I'm enjoying him now more than ever, much more of a risk/reward style character, just as versatile but more strategy is required.
I have to disagree to an extend. I seem to be camping with Olimar quite efficiently with the 3 Pikmin. The main things is to watch your lineup and make sure to whistle and get to the Pikmin fast. They also have made Olimar's options quite better when he has no Pikmin. The new jab is amazing, the ftilt can kill, and the nair to uptilit follow up can be quite good when landing with no Pikmin.
I have to disagree to an extend. I seem to be camping with Olimar quite efficiently with the 3 Pikmin. The main things is to watch your lineup and make sure to whistle and get to the Pikmin fast. They also have made Olimar's options quite better when he has no Pikmin. The new jab is amazing, the ftilt can kill, and the nair to uptilit follow up can be quite good when landing with no Pikmin.
All the tilts being good moves without the Pikmin make you less reliant on them, but you still have to be very careful not to overcommit to throwing them and keep at least one, preferably two with you at all times.
All the tilts being good moves without the Pikmin make you less reliant on them, but you still have to be very careful not to overcommit to throwing them and keep at least one, preferably two with you at all times.
I definitely agree that it's preferred to always have at least one Pikmin with you. I'm just saying that compared to Brawl it isn't close to as bad. I recover quite often with no Pikmin either for them just dropping from my line in the air or tossing them to recover. I do always try to keep at least one with me, but the occasion doesn't always allow it lol.
Throwing your Pikmin is a much riskier option now because of how defenseless you are without them. People are complaining about the changes, but I'm enjoying him now more than ever, much more of a risk/reward style character, just as versatile but more strategy is required.
I think risky is the wrong word. I mean, you still have full control over how often you throw them. You just need to be a little more aware in my opinion, but I never really feel like it isn't safe
I think risky is the wrong word. I mean, you still have full control over how often you throw them. You just need to be a little more aware in my opinion, but I never really feel like it isn't safe
Loving Olimar so far. I think all of his aerials are really great and he has a lot of juggle potential. He feels a bit like a pseudo-Marth to me the way his aerials hit.
I personally do not think he is nerfed, but rather a buff. His recovery is amazing, even with three Pikmin. His Grabs is still one of the best attributes he has, and he can do a dtilt dthrow combo, followed with a Neutral air. Olimar is one of the only characters that can follow an up air into another up air. His air game in my opinion is still good, back air can KO. I once witnessed an Olimar KO a Sheik with an uncharged forward smash by a red Pikmin at 63%. That though may be rare, it shouldn't ever be possible for a lightweight, yet he did it. He can combo attacks very well despite popular belief, but adding up the strategic value and glitchiness of the Pikmin, as well as his lightness, he likely has the largest learning curve of all Super Smash Bros now, as well as Rosalina, of course. He's very powerful, but needs more time to become good at than he ever did in Brawl.
I personally do not think he is nerfed, but rather a buff. His recovery is amazing, even with three Pikmin. His Grabs is still one of the best attributes he has, and he can do a dtilt dthrow combo, followed with a Neutral air. Olimar is one of the only characters that can follow an up air into another up air. His air game in my opinion is still good, back air can KO. I once witnessed an Olimar KO a Sheik with an uncharged forward smash by a red Pikmin at 63%. That though may be rare, it shouldn't ever be possible for a lightweight, yet he did it. He can combo attacks very well despite popular belief, but adding up the strategic value and glitchiness of the Pikmin, as well as his lightness, he likely has the largest learning curve of all Super Smash Bros now, as well as Rosalina, of course. He's very powerful, but needs more time to become good at than he ever did in Brawl.
Going to have to heartily disagree with you there. Aside from his change to recovery most of his other kill moves have stayed the same or been taken from one move to another. Only one of his throws reliably kills now (depending on rage mode as well), and it has to be with a blue. His upsmash has been nerfed to the ground, but his other two smashes are pretty good. His camp game is weaker since the Pikmin toss does less damage per tick, and they fall off faster once the enemy is at a higher percent. The Pikmin desyncs are worst than ever making follow ups not always guaranteed, and having to put yourself in a bad position on the ledge just to save a Pikmin that decided to drop out of your line. He also has a decent amount of ending lag on his grab, and it has less range. I mean he might have got a couple of buffs, but saying he is better than he was in Brawl seems quite far off.
Going to have to heartily disagree with you there. Aside from his change to recovery most of his other kill moves have stayed the same or been taken from one move to another. Only one of his throws reliably kills now (depending on rage mode as well), and it has to be with a blue. His upsmash has been nerfed to the ground, but his other two smashes are pretty good. His camp game is weaker since the Pikmin toss does less damage per tick, and they fall off faster once the enemy is at a higher percent. The Pikmin desyncs are worst than ever making follow ups not always guaranteed, and having to put yourself in a bad position on the ledge just to save a Pikmin that decided to drop out of your line. He also has a decent amount of ending lag on his grab, and it has less range. I mean he might have got a couple of buffs, but saying he is better than he was in Brawl seems quite far off.
Is it common knowledge on how to do Olimar's dodge canceling? I have a video recorded, but I can't post links until I have at least 10 posts. If it's well known then I won't worry about it. Basically you just do your neutral special(Pikmin pluck) after you air dodge, right before you touch the ground to get rid of the landing lag. If you guys want, I'll edit in the video after I've made 10 posts. I wanted to do videos of this guard canceling for all my mains, so let me know what you guys think.
Is it common knowledge on how to do Olimar's dodge canceling? I have a video recorded, but I can't post links until I have at least 10 posts. If it's well known then I won't worry about it. Basically you just do your neutral special(Pikmin pluck) after you air dodge, right before you touch the ground to get rid of the landing lag. If you guys want, I'll edit in the video after I've made 10 posts. I wanted to do videos of this guard canceling for all my mains, so let me know what you guys think.
I'll have to try his fair to see if that's easier. It cancels the animation of Olimar actually plucking and let's you go directly into shield. If that's what you meant.
I'll have to try his fair to see if that's easier. It cancels the animation of Olimar actually plucking and let's you go directly into shield. If that's what you meant.
I just tried the fair and I couldn't get it. Maybe both work and it's just a matter of preference. Anyways, I'm getting close to 10 post, so I'll link my video soon.
I just tried the fair and I couldn't get it. Maybe both work and it's just a matter of preference. Anyways, I'm getting close to 10 post, so I'll link my video soon.
Fair, Bair, and Nair have 15 frames of landing lag. Fair and Bair can be auto canceled, and when done sends the Pikmin in the front of the line to the back.
Also my actual Olimar guide should be up within two days or less. I hope it can help us set on some fixed strategies, and help get some good discussion going.
Finally hit 10 post. This is what I was talking about though. I'm sure this is well known, but feel free to use it in your guide or whatever if you think that it will suffice.
Finally hit 10 post. This is what I was talking about though. I'm sure this is well known, but feel free to use it in your guide or whatever if you that it will suffice.
Awesome! I never really thought about using the pluck. Also I don't think I'm gonna add any videos or pictures in yet. I'm waiting for the Wii U version to come out to have a nice way to capture game footage.
I edited my moveset post to reflect what Myran said and made a few grammar changes, but I also added in a few new notes, namely:
- Fsmash can go over the edge of a platform, as long as Olimar is near it himself
- Fsmash can cancel out some weak projectiles
- A small note on desyncing in the Pikmin Properties section
- Number of hits a thrown Pikmin can do with Side B can be reduced by opponent's movement
- Shields and invincibility frames blocks/avoids damage incurred by latched Pikmin by Side B
- Thrown Pikmin can be Pocketed by Villager. I'm not sure if this, as well as Rosalina's Down B, also applies to smash attacks.
Hopefully I'll be able to test out the differences in the custom moves and rough KO percentages for different weight classes soon. I'll see if I can get one of them done by this weekend.
